The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[elatedshyguy]

Melee is not always entertaining. Brawl is not always boring.

You are gonna be my signature. This is the best thing ever written in these forums.

 

[mimgrim]

Melee is not always entertaining. Brawl is not always boring.

That's a matter perspective honestly.

I always find watching Melee singles and Brawl singles to be fun, I never find them boring . Though I also hate watching doubles for both as well.

 

[Madolche ♦ Procione]

Just throwing in my two cents here.
Brawl is around where I really got into smash as a competitive game, so I didn't come in with any bias towards Melee mechanics. I also really did enjoy discovering some of the complexities of Melee, so I have an appreciation for both sides.

I think if any techs were to be in the new Smash, it'd be better to keep the Melee approach. The techs didn't add any complexity to casual players because it wasn't on the surface level of gameplay. It was something you had to find out, and not a feature directly mapped to any button.
I think if the techs were simplified as some people suggested, it might turn off some casual players to the game. Even if you make it simpler, it's still another thing to learn, and it would lower the curve to where there would be more people abusing such techs and probably making the game less fun in their eyes.

I'm also not particularly against the existence of techs like that either, for the very reason that if they keep the online model like they did in Brawl, casual players shouldn't have a problem with fighting people who are flying across the screen and having all the hitboxes on their attacks double in size or whatever kind of exploit gets found. I mean, really the only chance (other than offline) of the casual and competitive sides mingling are through the 'With Anyone' kind of battles, but even then, with the set time limit and ability for any stage or item to be on, it isn't going to be the most appealing match type for any competitive player like that. (save for the occasional troll or two.)

tl;dr: If techs don't exist in the next smash, fine, but if they do, I don't think it'd be good to try and add them to the 'standard' gameplay, if that makes sense.

 

[Niko Mar]

Yes it would be needed because it allows for options for connecting ground combos.

Let's say I forward smash you and I dash after you I can only connect with my dash attack.

If I forward smash you and wavedash towards you I can follow up with a neutral attack, any tilt attack, any smash attack, etc.

Ummm, smash attacks are meant to push your opponents away. I don't see why you should be able to follow that up with a neutral attack indefinitely.

Do you guys just want skills for the sake of there being skills?

 

[Starcutter]

What if instead of wavedashing there was quick movement things out of shield instead? Like, use the second stick to go not as far but have virtually no endlag.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Ummm, smash attacks are meant to push your opponents away. I don't see why you should be able to follow that up with a neutral attack indefinitely.

Do you guys just want skills for the sake of there being skills?

Omg, If I chose to combo out of a Smash attack that is my option is there something wrong with that? Also obviously you would be at a low health when I perform that combo because if I use a smash attack at any higher damage you would die. Think guy think, I was explaining a prime use for Wavedashing, connection grounded attacks.

 

[mimgrim]

Do you guys just want skills for the sake of there being skills?

I don't.

However from the gist I'm getting you, and people who agree with, are going to call any tech skill found as only being there for tech skill since you find Wavedash to be a tech skill for the sake of tech skill when it most certainly is not. Hell, while I may not fully agree with it L-cancel can be argued, legitly, as a tech skill that isn't there for the sake of having a tech skill.

You have to look at the techs deeper. As long as you continue to be stubborn and not listen to what some of us are trying to say and explain, like Wavedashing by a very legitimite tech skill, you will think any tech skill is there for the sake of being tech skill. And with that logic we should get rid of Short Hopping and Power/Perfect Shielding.

 

[elatedshyguy]

I don't.

However from the gist I'm getting you, and people who agree with, are going to call any tech skill found as only being there for tech skill since you find Wavedash to be a tech skill for the sake of tech skill when it most certainly is not. Hell, while I may not fully agree with it L-cancel can be argued, legitly, as a tech skill that isn't there for the sake of having a tech skill.

You have to look at the techs deeper. As long as you continue to be stubborn and not listen to what some of us are trying to say and explain, like Wavedashing by a very legitimite tech skill, you will think any tech skill is there for the sake of being tech skill. And with that logic we should get rid of Short Hopping and Power/Perfect Shielding.

My point exactly, I sat here all day explaining the benefits of wavedashing and it is as if for naught because no one seems to care to try to understand. I said if I use a grounded attack that knocks you back and I dash after you I would only be able to connect with my dash attack. If I knock you back and wavedash after you I could follow up with any grounded attack because I am still technically standing. And the person replied that I want techs just to tech... -__-

 

[Niko Mar]

Everyone's a critic....

 

[Renji64]

People want smash to become luck based like mario party.

 

[elatedshyguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjfzExt_TTE

I don't know if you guy's have seen this. Also read the first top comment.

 

[DraginHikari]

People want smash to become luck based like mario party.

There is a big gap between wanting Smash Bros like Mario Party and this subject of disagrements on techniques.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Street Fighter's special system is arbitrary, they should just have a designated special button right? lol

 

[Renji64]

You were saying?

Still looks like ballon fighter to me. Mario party is has better high level play than that game.

 

[Big-Cat]

Street Fighter's special system is arbitrary, they should just have a designated special button right? lol

Doesn't work that way. The specials have different versions of them that are all important.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Still looks like ballon fighter to me. Mario party is has better high level play than that game.

That is Melee, the more competitive game lol

 

[pitthekit]

Can we all agree if there is an advanced technique in a game it should add depth,options and balance(?) and have simple imputs(?)

Can we all agree that Advanced techniques like L cancelling should not be added as they give pointless options with one being the best option(do you want more ending lag don't press l, do you want less ending lag? Press l) these techniques give us needless imputs.

Advance technique such as wave dashing(melee), dacusing (brawl), perfect shield(melee and brawl) , pivot grab etc. are all techniques that helped smash's meta game and added more depth with options.

With that said what are some useless advanced techniques smash games that are just needless imputs?

 

[elatedshyguy]

My last statement on this thread (I hope)

Wavedashing is an extremely useful technique that is about as unnatural as short hopping and fast falling (tell me how you do this in real life) which adds a lot to Smash in the forms of movement, it is the only way to chain/connect grounded attacks other than a dash attack, and it can be used for mindgames. There is no reason not to add new, useful skills to a fighting game. Since, I see people are to stubborn to accept other ideas I'm just gonna be grateful for Melee and Project M and hope for the future of Smash because we the competitive community are already the minority in terms of people who play Smash and we are now further broken up into groups who want a technical progress or another Melee (a truly deep fighting game) and a group who wants a "faster" Brawl (little ground combo options, and more focus on defense) . I explained how simply making a game like Brawl faster isn't going to work (look at the Brawl + mod, I don't see that at big events, however I see Project M there) but whatever, to each his own opinion.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Can we all agree if there is an advanced technique in a game it should add depth,options and balance(?) and have simple imputs(?)

Can we all agree that Advanced techniques like L cancelling should not be added as they give pointless options with one being the best option(do you want more ending lag don't press l, do you want less ending lag? Press l) these techniques give us needless imputs.

Advance technique such as wave dashing(melee), dacusing (brawl), perfect shield(melee and brawl) , pivot grab etc. are all techniques that helped smash's meta game and added more depth with options.

With that said what are some useless advanced techniques smash games that are just needless imputs?

I haven't heard anyone complain about DACUS which was a glitch (unlike Wavedashing which was a side effect) and it was actually difficult to pull off and it was also unnatural in nature. Lol whatever, and pointless advance techs? Well Moonwalking was just a slower, glitch version of Wavedashing. Also Jump Cancel Grab is something I don't really like even though I do understand why it is used. I don't like it because it removes the risk of dash grabbing, it's kind of like L-cancelling why not just have little lag after dash grabbing?

 

[pitthekit]

My last statement on this thread (I hope)

Wavedashing is an extremely useful technique that is about as unnatural as short hopping and fast falling (tell me how you do this in real life) which adds a lot to Smash in the forms of movement, it is the only way to chain/connect grounded attacks other than a dash attack, and it can be used for mindgames. There is no reason not to add new, useful skills to a fighting game. Since, I see people are to stubborn to accept other ideas I'm just gonna be grateful for Melee and Project M and hope for the future of Smash because we the competitive community are already the minority in terms of people who play Smash and we are now further broken up into groups who want a technical progress or another Melee (a truly deep fighting game) and a group who wants a "faster" Brawl (little ground combo options, and more focus on defense) . I explained how simply making a game like Brawl faster isn't going to work (look at the Brawl + mod, I don't see that at big events, however I see Project M there) but whatever, to each his own opinion.

I agree, sakurai has already stated that smash 4 will be faster than brawl and be slower than melee.
I hope the smash 4 team takes the best parts of melee and brawl and throw in some new mechanics(love the nerf on planking)
And create a new experience that is actually enjoyable and not a melee clone or a brawl clone.

Melee was deep on how many options you had and safe offensive pressure. Brawl was deep on reading and picking good oos options and many other things I probably forgot to post.

 

[pitthekit]

So what are peoples opinions on crouch cancelling? If you don't now if you press down in melee while you are being hit by a hitbox you will take less hit stun and knock back. This made a lot of ground options riskier.

I believe brawl has a nerfed version of crouch cancelling except it only lessens the hit stun and not the knock back.

 

[Jaedrik]

I know this isn't exactly what you are asking, but your post makes a nice jumping off point for mine.

Let's compare Boxing to MMA I am in no way saying Boxing does not require high technical skill, because it does, but the point of the thread seems to be that, logically, MMA is a much deeper, more skilled form of competition. You have a wider variety of Martial Arts that you can employ and more options for tactics and techniques allowed by the rules of the game. Yet, I would not agree with that sentiment. I think Boxing is just as, if not more, deep and skillful.

I know it has been said already, but complexity for complexity's sake does not automatically make an experience deeper. In fact, limitations and restrictions can actually do more for making a game enriching and deep. You can't think outside of the box if the box is too large to fully comprehend, you know?

Great post, but the notion that "logically, MMA is a much deeper" competition with a much higher skill cap is NOT a sentiment, it is exactly that which you have said, logical, reasoned, cold, hard, de facto. MMA requires, beyond any reasonable doubt (you may have unreasonable doubts), more technical skill and knowledge than boxing.
More viable tactics means more depth period. Higher skill cap usually means more viable tactics which means more depth period. It's part of why I'm so fond of games that have more procedural generation and physics-based play, there's just so much stuff you can manipulate that it can get quite ridiculous, but it may eventually get to a point where it's simply not feasible to execute a manipulation consistently, it would be like trying to look at your opponent's controller to predict movement, it's just too hard for us to do. We need a medium that is less complex.
Tech skill by itself is not, by any measure, complexity for complexity's sake. Just as you can't open a door with a bare, unrefined key, it is impossible to translate certain motions from the player's hands into the experience. Tech skill is, as complex button inputs, to some degree, necessary for certain types of depth.

Check EVE for example. Can you have that much depth without all those spreadsheets? Plain and simple, no. That's how the player receives data, but how they transfer it is more important, incredibly so, they require a keyboard, and a UI, to make sense of the game and decide on a course of action. Likewise, due its depth, it would be incredibly silly if every single thing had its own button that depended on rhythm tapping to differentiate input. How would that feel if it was condensed down to one button? You've got rhythm, and I would contend as a musician that rhythm is far more naturally intuitive to the human mind than pressing a bunch of buttons. But that's still quite silly, it limits what we can press when. Well, it restricts all decision, most especially where the mouse is concerned. How can one be expected to make precise adjustments of his aperture in a flight simulation with massive deadzones on his joystick? He cannot.
What if it's reversed? Give someone far more buttons? In the case of the people who do not pay attention to those options, because they see no use for them, they become useless and more confusing as they try to associate and put meaning to the action they see on screen without the required effort to comprehend. At least, for a while it takes more effort to comprehend than a permutation.

Here, I shall use a math analogy. You know those instructors who make you learn it the hard way so you can understand the concepts behind it, and then apply those concepts to everything? I think they're doing us the service of cementing the association in the minds of the learner, so that when they see the word problems they will understand without fail and with a greater comprehension and appreciation for the art. Not that I don't like having the instructors who let you use the calculator programs for everything, I'm lazy too. Association is important because it helps us develop schematics which we can work through, and any shortcut is good, but shortcuts that short-circuit and run into misconception create an insane amount of confusion in the individual. I am a recent victim of this, as St. Hubert can testify, I spent hours re-reading my notes and math book last night just so I could figure out how to do this **** because I learned it the easy way and completely forgot about it. That's not depth, that's stinted growth and a disservice.
It's the same way with a calculator. Would you rather have a list of all the operations you can perform in a given subject, or would you rather memorize all the permutations to get the operation you want?

In the case of the people that do care to expand upon the metagame and to further themselves, it is just as easy and intuitive, if not more so due to their understanding of the physical effects of momentum transferring into sliding, to do those three inputs as it is that one.

Until games can read our intentions straight from our intellects (not minds) and respond accordingly, I will be compelled to point out this fact.
Alas, since they cannot, let us turn our attention to the chess analogy. Doing chess in the real world with physical pieces requires an enormous amount of technical skill. How can you rely on the innumerable laws of physics to transfer your intention accurately into material action? The controllers we have in our minds for our intellect to grasp a hold of and direct are vastly more complex, as any brain surgeon would agree, than any man-made controller as of now. How is it that we so quickly intuit control since we are bare as we begin life? Well that goes into a lot more philosophy and psychology, but you get the point. At some level one must learn the techne before one acts.

It can be easily seen that some compromise must be made to quickly usher people along input to effect and strengthen the association, lest all strategy and decision making be made worthless in the vast lexicon of inputs required to understand, there is no better way I have seen to do that aside from Jump+Dodge+Diagonal that does not convolute or lessen the depth required. I guess the discussion of the optimal number of buttons goes into ergonomics and psychology and stuff, but from my limited understanding, this is the best we have now.

The fact still remains, affordance and compromise must be made between one button and infinite buttons. I think wavedashing's input is perfect where it is. If you can suggest something better, be my guest.

Yeah but L-canceling is stupid as heck, foxtrot that doo doo.
It's like having a calculator that made you do a superfluous + every time you wanted to write a positive number.

 

[Substitution]

Here's what I ask:
Does it give depth? Sure. But, like others have said, it's not a necessity. Look at Brawl, it's as "barebones" as it gets, but people still played it. How you ask? People just found different techniques to replace the old ones. Now was it as big as Melee? No. But it's not like everyone abandoned it because L-canceling didn't come back nor Wavedashing.

 

[Jaedrik]

Here's what I ask:
Does it give depth? Sure. But, like others have said, it's not a necessity. Look at Brawl, it's as "barebones" as it gets, but people still played it. How you ask? People just found different techniques to replace the old ones. Now was it as big as Melee? No. But it's not like everyone abandoned it because L-canceling didn't come back nor Wavedashing.

Bro, you're in denial. (no srsly, I see ur location)
Depth is the amount of viable and experientially different effects, proportional to the degree of control the player has on the game.
L canceling does not enhance depth in any way, shape, or form, don't lump it in with wavedashing!
Just because people play a game, completely regardless of the level it's played on, doesn't mean it has comparable depth.
What game are you playing? What are you getting at? Why do you say these things? Are you trying to lure people somewhere? Did you read my post above (shameless advertising)?
Forgive me, I usually don't get suspicious unless someone hides their intention and frames the argument in such a way as the amount of people that do X or Y. It's a post hoc fallacy.

 

[Substitution]

What game are you playing? What are you getting at? Why do you say these things? Are you trying to lure people somewhere? Did you read my post above (shameless advertising)?
Forgive me, I usually don't get suspicious unless someone hides their intention and frames the argument in such a way as the amount of people that do X or Y. It's a post hoc fallacy.

Me? Advertise? Now...
Why would I do something like that?...

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

What if instead of wavedashing there was quick movement things out of shield instead? Like, use the second stick to go not as far but have virtually no endlag.

For me the best part is being in a neutral stance. For example on falcon with his short hop B approach you can land and wave dash into anything from a moving shine, to a non dash grab, or any attack. Where as dash gives you a bit of delay from the SH b to dash as well as limits your attack options.

 

[Jaedrik]

Me? Advertise? Now...
Why would I do something like that?...

You misinterpret me! I was advertising my post above you.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i think that the problem newer people have with advanced techs, is that they simply only exist in higher levels of play and nowhere else. Did the tutorial ever teach us those techs? Do Lv 9 CPU use them?

They are used to play the game like that, see.



About Wavedashing: I think that there is two problems with Wavedashing

1- Input being nonsensical, which was already discussed at length. I think the best way to re-map wavedashing would be something done solely with the analog stick, maybe a simple QCM like the Shoryuken or the Hadouken motions

2- It's different for everybody in a way that is not very balanced.

It adds to various things of a character's ground game, mobility being one of them. A few characters have long wavedashes, like Luigi and the Ice Climbers... and few have wavedashes that barely move then any distance, like Peach's and Jiggy's & characters were not built with Wavedashing in mind, nor any of the derivated techs from it (like Wavelanding), and their physics, their attributes, were not built with that in mind.

The end result is that each character benefits from it differently. If Wavedashing were to return, it needed to be specifically built for each character, unless it retruns in the exact same shape (meaning the result comes form the character's physics). I really doubt that if i was implemented intentionally a lot of thigns would have to be considered when deciding how much of a boost they give to each character.


It's a fine mechanic and i'd love it to return, but if those issues were fixed, even better!



Now, about L-canceling...

It has 1 problem, but first... some people mentioned the input doesn't make sense. What input would make sense? Since the tech is "L" Canceling, i think this is the best button, no? But the shield button can be a good way to L cancel if you listen to my idea... about L-canceling's problem.


1- It's a mere extension. No risk involved.

L-canceling is just an extension of aerials. No reason NOT to do it. So a risk is in order. I Think the risk that can be applied is... Detracting a bit of your shield per L-cancel. Why? Because of two reasons:

*It's done with the Shield button, so affecting Shields in some way would be the only reasonable way to make the input make sense.
*L-Canceling is a tech that can be used both offensively and defensively, but it's primarly a offensive tech. The main use of L-canceling is to help connect attacks into each other, no? So in order to improve your offense, you detract from defense.

The problem would be deciding how much Shield damage an L-cancel would deal.




It's highly unlikely, but if a few months after the game's release an update meant to fix bugs also added a level 10 cpu that used the advanced techs and unlocked a in-game tutorial for them... i guess casuals wold accept it more, maybe

 

[Substitution]

You misinterpret me! I was advertising my post above you.

...What?
I'm getting confused here...

 

[Jaedrik]

...What?
I'm getting confused here...

When I said "Did you read my post above (shameless advertising)?" I was referring to the fact that I was shamelessly advertising my post which was vertically, in the virtual space that is the monitor, above yours. In that, I assumed you did not read it.

 

[Substitution]

When I said "Did you read my post above (shameless advertising)?" I was referring to the fact that I was shamelessly advertising my post which was vertically, in the virtual space that is the monitor, above yours. In that, I assumed you did not read it.

Ah...
Then why'd you go after me?
What did I do?

 

[pitthekit]

Ah...
Then why'd you go after me?
What did I do?

You gave him a weird feeling and he clarified I rated your guys convo 6/10 meh kawii

 

[mimgrim]

Here's what I ask:
Does it give depth? Sure. But, like others have said, it's not a necessity. Look at Brawl, it's as "barebones" as it gets, but people still played it. How you ask? People just found different techniques to replace the old ones. Now was it as big as Melee? No. But it's not like everyone abandoned it because L-canceling didn't come back nor Wavedashing.

Sorry but no, they are wrong.

Whether they like it or not or how much they try to get around, Smash is still a fighting game at heart. And an important part of any fighting game is tech skill. If it isn't a nesscisty then let's take out every single effing tech skill in existence in Smash and see what happens. That includes everything from Short Hopping (the most common tech skill ever) to SWD(hardest AT that came to my mind). The game would be a poor excuse then.

The simple fact is, for a fighting game, tech skill is a necessity. Brawl has tech skill still, not as much as Melee but it is still there.

 

[Vkrm]

The "always the better choice" isn't a legit argument in my opinion. The mechanic still adds decision making elements. There's plenty a defending player can do to alter the resulting hit lag and force the other player to delay his input.

That stage is banned dawg. Would it be fair to judge the brawl metagame on a match on luigis mansion or temple?

 

[Substitution]

Sorry but no, they are wrong.

Whether they like it or not or how much they try to get around, Smash is still a fighting game at heart. And an important part of any fighting game is tech skill. If it isn't a nesscisty then let's take out every single effing tech skill in existence in Smash and see what happens. That includes everything from Short Hopping (the most common tech skill ever) to SWD(hardest AT that came to my mind). The game would be a poor excuse then.

The simple fact is, for a fighting game, tech skill is a necessity. Brawl has tech skill still, not as much as Melee but it is still there.

But here's what I ask, why do we specifically need L-canceling?
Like I also said. We adapted, when we lost L-canceling, we got DACUS.
Sure, I'll agree that tech skill can make a game "deep". But we don't need L-canceling, nor Wavedashing.

 

[Jaedrik]

The "always the better choice" isn't a legit argument in my opinion.

Your opinion is wrong, there is no decision.

 

[mimgrim]

But here's what I ask, why do we specifically need L-canceling?
Like I also said. We adapted, when we lost L-canceling, we got DACUS.
Sure, I'll agree that tech skill can make a game "deep". But we don't need L-canceling, nor Wavedashing.

You totally missed the point. I didn't even mention L-cancel or Wavedash in that post, well I did mention SWD but that's a super Wavedash and not a regular one.

 

[Substitution]

You totally missed the point. I didn't even mention L-cancel or Wavedash in that post, well I did mention SWD but that's a super Wavedash and not a regular one.

I'm arguing with the main topic while replying to yours...

...You know, we argue a lot with each other. Weird huh?...

 

[Jaedrik]

Indifference to alternatives is not action, thus cannot be considered choice.

 

[pitthekit]

Ug whatever when you give people complex things some ???