The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[Muster]

You were saying?

Okay, i like both brawl and melee, but this post pissed me off.
That stage is BANNED in singles for that very reason, just like rainbow cruise is banned in brawl because of this.

Might as well bring a set on a legal stage for comparison

Keep in mind, this shiek/marth is the same person who was the camping meta knight in the previous video

 

[Black Mantis]

Well camping is the reason that stage is banned. Just showing that camping can be prevalent and powerful in any smash game. In fact, that's true for any fighting game. Look at Street Fighter X Tekken.

 

[Muster]

Well camping is the reason that stage is banned. Just showing that camping can be prevalent and powerful in any smash game. In fact, that's true for any fighting game. Look at Street Fighter X Tekken.

Melee has all but gotten rid of camping due to its stage choice, you'll never see a good player actually camping out a match.

Brawl has an edge grab limit per match because stalling is prevalent on every stage (at least with MK). Without it i'm sure there will still be good matches in brawl tournaments, but they will be dwarfed by the amount of MK's that would stick to the edge like glue.

 

[Vkrm]

Your opinion is wrong, there is no decision.

Maybe your opinion is wrong chief.

 

[Jaedrik]

Maybe your opinion is wrong chief.

I'm not giving an opinion, I'm stating a fact.
Indifference to alternatives is not action, thus cannot be considered choice. There is no decision, not L-canceling is simply not viable once it is learned.

 

[pitthekit]

I'm not giving an opinion, I'm stating a fact.
Indifference to alternatives is not action, thus cannot be considered choice. There is no decision, not L-canceling is simply not viable once it is learned.

MonK4 is right, now you learned something from this discussion! Hooray for people

 

[smashbro29]

I think L-cancelling is stupid as hell but wavedashing/landing for what they were in Melee (unintentional engine quirks) it worked quite nicely I would have liked them to be embraced and polished as a real mechanic in the future.

In direct response to the question, people are against stupid tech skill not tech skill.

 

[Vkrm]

I'm not giving an opinion, I'm stating a fact.
Indifference to alternatives is not action, thus cannot be considered choice. There is no decision, not L-canceling is simply not viable once it is learned.

You're wrong about me being wrong. Every successful aerial entails an l cancel. An L cancel entails an l input thats timed properly. Playing with your shields elevation and density can change the window for a cancel and forces your opponent to adapt or miss his cancel. You are not acknowledging the options the defending player has.

 

[Jaedrik]

You're wrong about me being wrong. Every successful aerial entails an l cancel. An L cancel entails an l input thats timed properly. Playing with your shields elevation and density can change the window for a cancel and forces your opponent to adapt or miss his cancel. You are not acknowledging the options the defending player has.

Well, why didn't you say that in the first place! That's not an opinion, that's a fact, and you just proved me wrong! Why were you leading me on? Don't toy with my emotions like that!

 

[pitthekit]

You're wrong about me being wrong. Every successful aerial entails an l cancel. An L cancel entails an l input thats timed properly. Playing with your shields elevation and density can change the window for a cancel and forces your opponent to adapt or miss his cancel. You are not acknowledging the options the defending player has.

If both players were frame perfect the attacking player should not fall for this trick to mis-time his l cancel.

See? L cancel is a needless imput. If you want to speed up the game just lower all ending lag aerial values for character. Although you did prove l cancel has a little more depth to it than I previously thought.

Just providing a crappy counter argument.

If you can disprove this lame point I made then I will accept your argument.

 

[Jaedrik]

If both players were frame perfect the attacking player should not fall for this trick to mis-time his l cancel.

See? L cancel is a needless imput. If you want to speed up the game just lower all ending lag aerial values for characters.

Melee was in the sweet spot. Not too slow so that there was no down-time, and not too fast as to where everything simply depended on muscle memory. Faster doesn't mean better and more depth, but neither does slower.

Also, I see what you mean about L-canceling, in playing P:M I never (rarely) fail to L-cancel, regardless of my opponent's actions.
I rescind my earlier statement and replace it with this: L-canceling is also too easy to matter what the opponent does.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Sorry guys, but I can't just sit here and watch you all gang up on poor little L-canceling. It may be repetitive and the only sensible option throughout the match, but the only alternative Sakurai has given us is huge landing lag on most aerials that eliminate subsequent options. Given the choice I'd simply want every aerial to be automatically cancelled, but since that'll never happen I propose that they bring it back.

 

[pitthekit]

Melee was in the sweet spot. Not too slow so that there was no down-time, and not too fast as to where everything simply depended on muscle memory. Faster doesn't mean better and more depth, but neither does slower.

Also, I see what you mean about L-canceling, in playing P:M I never (rarely) fail to L-cancel, regardless of my opponent's actions.
I rescind my earlier statement and replace it with this: L-canceling is also too easy to matter what the opponent does.

Yes that makes sense melee was also slow enough for players to make reads or punish linear attack patterns.

I agree with the faster and slower part + everything else. Which do you prefer? A slower smash? A faster smash? Or any mixture of fast and slow?

 

[smashbro29]

Sorry guys, but I can't just sit here and watch you all gang up on poor little L-canceling. It may be repetitive and the only sensible option throughout the match, but the only alternative Sakurai has given us is huge landing lag on most aerials that eliminate subsequent options. Given the choice I'd simply want every aerial to be automatically cancelled, but since that'll never happen I propose that they bring it back.

Or they could just lower landing lag or let you cancel out of grounded aerials with another action. Use your brain, L-cancelling is not the only way.

 

[Jaedrik]

Or they could just lower landing lag or let you cancel out of grounded aerials with another action. Use your brain, L-cancelling is not the only way.

They could, but, would they? SKM_NeoN is working under the assumption that Sakurai most likely won't give us anything else besides massive landing lag or L-canceling. No need to be a jerk about it.

Yes that makes sense melee was also slow enough for players to make reads or punish linear attack patterns.
I agree with the faster and slower part + everything else. Which do you prefer? A slower smash? A faster smash? Or any mixture of fast and slow?

Well, if we're taking Smash to mean the average speed of all the entries, then faster, but only ever so slightly, as Brawl diluted Melee and P:M's speed. 64 was also pretty fast so that's something.

 

[Muster]

Or they could just lower landing lag or let you cancel out of grounded aerials with another action. Use your brain, L-cancelling is not the only way.

Funny, how you tell him to use his brain when

Given the choice I'd simply want every aerial to be automatically cancelled, but since that'll never happen I propose that they bring it back.

That's what he says in the first place.
It's not stupid to think that a mechanic that has been prevalent in 2/3's of the series history would realistically return over lowering landing lag altogether.

 

[Big-Cat]

Well camping is the reason that stage is banned. Just showing that camping can be prevalent and powerful in any smash game. In fact, that's true for any fighting game. Look at Street Fighter X Tekken.

That game in general has plenty of problems, and that's coming from someone that really wanted to enjoy it.

 

[elatedshyguy]

But here's what I ask, why do we specifically need L-canceling?
Like I also said. We adapted, when we lost L-canceling, we got DACUS.
Sure, I'll agree that tech skill can make a game "deep". But we don't need L-canceling, nor Wavedashing.

Because DACUS was a crappy tech skill that didn't bring a lot to the table. Wavedashing brought a lot to the table, as I have explained previously.

 

[Substitution]

Because DACUS was a crappy tech skill that didn't bring a lot to the table. Wavedashing brought a lot to the table, as I have explained previously.

But do we need it?
Apparently Brawl didn't.

 

[elatedshyguy]

But do we need it?
Apparently Brawl didn't.

But was Brawl well received by the community? Brawl further broke the community into two. If Brawl were any good, Melee would have been a thing of the past and everyone would be on Brawl. Every other fighter in big events is the latest version of it (SF4AE, UMvC3, etc) accept Smash, Melee is what made it to EVO not Brawl.

 

[mimgrim]

Melee has all but gotten rid of camping due to its stage choice, you'll never see a good player actually camping out a match.

Brawl has an edge grab limit per match because camping is prevalent on every stage. Without it i'm sure there will still be good matches in brawl tournaments, but they will be dwarfed by the amount of MK's that would stick to the edge like glue.

The misinformation here reeks.

Brawl has a ledge grab limit because of Meta Knight, very few other characters can abuse planking like MK can. The characters that could have decent planking game have other bad things going for them to where it would even out. There is literally no other reason for the LGL.

As for the Melee statement you made, that is also false. Camping is still a tactic and people can still do it. What do you call what M2K does on the ledge with Sheik? Camping. Samus is a character that can make good use of camping with the current stage list due to all but 1 having platforms. Fox and Falco can laser camp still, the especially want to do it when going against Jiggs. Hell the stage PS1 promotes camping. Camping still exists in Melee, saying otherwise is ridiculous. Your also going under the notion that camping is inherently banned, when it isn't.




As for the whole L-cancel diabolical. I use to be in the auto L-cancel camp, but that would end up giving an unfair advantage to the heavier characters. I would rather see L-canceled expanded upon instead. Perhaps make it specific. Instead of having every aerial be able to make use of it, why not instead have only the aerials with a noticeable landing lag, like Peach's Fair, Brawl Falco's Fair, most Dairs, ect... and instead only have the lag reduce to a lag that is just a tiny bit less than a "normal" aerial. This way it keeps it all even and tried not to favor on weight set of characters to much and makes the laggy moves require more work to be put in for them.

 

[Substitution]

But was Brawl well received by the community? Brawl further broke the community into two. If Brawl were any good, Melee would have been a thing of the past and everyone would be on Brawl. Every other fighter in big events is the latest version of it (SF4AE, UMvC3, etc) accept Smash, Melee is what made it to EVO not Brawl.

And this game won't if it became Melee 2.0? Look at Project M, it's essentially what everyone wanted, another Melee. Yet it caused an even bigger division among the fan-base.

 

[elatedshyguy]

But do we need it?
Apparently Brawl didn't.

After Smash (Melee) made it to Evo it sparked a lot of interest and they made a guide for SF players to get into Smash and guess which title in particular? Melee. Why? Well look at what this STREET FIGHTER player had to say

 

[Substitution]

After Smash (Melee) made it to Evo it sparked a lot of interest and they made a guide for SF players to get into Smash and guess which title in particular? Melee. Why?
View attachment 7571

...And you're only pulling up one person. Really?
That's like saying everyone prefers apples over oranges because you asked five people...
How 'bout the general community?

 

[LancerStaff]

Brawl wasn't designed to be Melee's successor, but instead it's own thing. Like how 4 won't have SSE 2 or how we got SM3DL and W instead of SMG 3 and 4.

 

[elatedshyguy]

...And you're only pulling up one person. Really?
That's like saying everyone prefers apples over oranges because you asked five people...
How 'bout the general community?

More people prefer Melee over Brawl any day. How do we know? Which mod is the most successful Brawl mod? Which mod has become it's own separate entity and is considered it's own game at Apex? Project M. Now tell why the 'dream Smash game' ( a faster Brawl, with corrected hitstun, little landing lag, and faster falling speeds ) which already exists in the form of Brawl + isn't anywhere near as successful? Also Melee was elected to be at Evo 2K13 not Brawl despite it being the newest installment. Oh and did the community make an awesome documentary on Brawl? Nah, but I believe they made one on Melee. Accept the facts bro.

 

[Vkrm]

...And you're only pulling up one person. Really?
That's like saying everyone prefers apples over oranges because you asked five people...
How 'bout the general community?

Based on the competitive community brawl is third in popularity after pm and melee.

 

[pitthekit]

...And you're only pulling up one person. Really?
That's like saying everyone prefers apples over oranges because you asked five people...
How 'bout the general community?

Sf to my knowledge are very skilled in fighting games so the magnitude of respect sf players have to try to get into melee smash is amazing.

So if brawl was at evo! Would sf players want to get into brawl?

So these sf players mean a lot to say that they like melee and want to try it out.

If a 5 super genius smart omniscient people provided evidence that everyone prefers apples over oranges then I would consider their word over the "general community"

And yes I know that not everyone prefers apples over oranges... Or do I?

 

[elatedshyguy]

Brawl wasn't designed to be Melee's successor, but instead it's own thing. Like how 4 won't have SSE 2 or how we got SM3DL and W instead of SMG 3 and 4.

I think we all know this lol

 

[elatedshyguy]

So if brawl was at evo! Would sf players want to get into brawl?

This is the thing, more people wanted Melee at Evo than people who wanted Brawl.

 

[Substitution]

More people prefer Melee over Brawl any day. How do we know? Which mod is the most successful Brawl mod? Which mod has become it's own separate entity and is considered it's own game at Apex? Project M. Now tell why the 'dream Smash game' ( a faster Brawl, with corrected hitstun, little landing lag, and faster falling speeds ) which already exists in the form of Brawl + isn't anywhere near as successful? Also Melee was elected to be at Evo 2K13 not Brawl despite it being the newest installment. Accept the facts bro.

Which mod has come under fire from all ends of the earth? Which mod has caused an even bigger division in the fanbase? Not Brawl.
I'd better leave now, I've already turned this into a flame war as it is. But ask me this? Why can't we just have both? What is so appalling that we need to make sure it never happens again. Why must we treat it like a mistake, a failure, the worst game of all time? Why can't we just accept it as what it is and move on?

 

[pitthekit]

Which mod has come under fire from all ends of the earth? Which mod has caused an even bigger division in the fanbase? Not Brawl.
I'd better leave now, I've already turned this into a flame war as it is. But ask me this? Why can't we just have both? What is so appalling that we need to make sure it never happens again. Why must we treat it like a mistake, a failure, the worst game of all time? Why can't we just accept it as what it is and move on?

No matter what I say to this post I don't think it will have an effect on smash 4's development.

Yeah that is my crummy response to this question.

 

[elatedshyguy]

How do we we end this thread I am tired of hearing butt hurt Brawl fans weep and I am tired of people who have crummy arguments, like wavedashing is unnatural. I mean I don't remember the last time a human could control how high they could jump (SH) and how fast they would fall (FF), but you don't argue against them huh? To all of us who are pro tech and understand the depth and options that they bring let's just enjoy Melee and Project M and very soon Air Dodge Online and let's continue being the face of the community and making it to EVO. To those who don't like tech skill they have Brawl and their smaller recognition and tournaments. Let's move on maybe even play our respective games, I'm in the mood for some Melee.

BTW don't get me wrong I play Brawl all the time, I'm the only one in my house who does lol. I main Fox. He isn't as good as is in Melee but if watch how the Japanese play him, you will know he is still a great character. Look up Yui.

 

[pitthekit]

How do we we end this thread I am tired of hearing butt hurt Brawl fans weep and I am tired of people who have crummy arguments, like wavedashing is unnatural. I mean I don't remember the last time a human could control how high they could jump (SH) and how fast they would fall (FF), but you don't argue against them huh? To all of us who are pro tech and understand the depth and options that they bring let's just enjoy Melee and Project M and very soon Air Dodge Online and let's continue being the face of the community and making it to EVO. To those who don't like tech skill they have Brawl and their smaller recognition and tournaments. Let's move on maybe even play our respective games, I'm in the mood for some Melee.

BTW don't get me wrong I play Brawl all the time, I'm the only one in my house who does lol. I main Fox. He isn't as good as is in Melee but if watch how the **** play him you will know he is still a strong character lol. Look up Yui, GREAT Brawl Fox.

Really I could tolerate brawl if it had more hit stun.

Humans can control how high they can jump out of our limited jump height. I can jump lightly and jump my limited jump height.
But I don't think people can fast fall lol

Hmm maybe with good technology we would not have to play smash and we could just fight each other and wavedash and fast fall in real life. Although we would only have. 1 stock

 

[mimgrim]

Figures. The thread started out well enough about tech skill only to deteriorate into Melee and PM VS Brawl. e_e

But I don't think people can fast fall lol

That's all people can do when they fall.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Really I could tolerate brawl if it had more hit stun.

Humans can control how high they can jump out of our limited jump height. I can jump lightly and jump my limited jump height.
But I don't think people can fast fall lol

Hmm maybe with good technology we would not have to play smash and we could just fight each other and wavedash and fast fall in real life. Although we would only have. 1 stock

lol my bad you are right, we can hop, but we can't control our falling speed. We can't double jump. We can't air dodge. So to all of you who say wavedashing had to go because it was unnatural, you have a lot of mechanics to remove, not just from Smash but from any FICTIONAL game. And hold up... how is Link's up b even possible?

 

[J1NG]

No matter what I say to this post I don't think it will have an effect on smash 4's development.

Yeah that is my crummy response to this question.

You're probably right. But these are interesting conversations to have. To share my thoughts on competitive Smash and to discuss the possibilities of the game is practically the whole reason why I'm on Smashboards. That, and to share some ideas that I come up with.
The shipping thread I posted a while back was just a bit of fun.

 

[Muster]

The misinformation here reeks.

Brawl has a ledge grab limit because of Meta Knight, very few other characters can abuse planking like MK can. The characters that could have decent planking game have other bad things going for them to where it would even out. There is literally no other reason for the LGL.

As for the Melee statement you made, that is also false. Camping is still a tactic and people can still do it. What do you call what M2K does on the ledge with Sheik? Camping. Samus is a character that can make good use of camping with the current stage list due to all but 1 having platforms. Fox and Falco can laser camp still, the especially want to do it when going against Jiggs. Hell the stage PS1 promotes camping. Camping still exists in Melee, saying otherwise is ridiculous. Your also going under the notion that camping is inherently banned, when it isn't.




As for the whole L-cancel diabolical. I use to be in the auto L-cancel camp, but that would end up giving an unfair advantage to the heavier characters. I would rather see L-canceled expanded upon instead. Perhaps make it specific. Instead of having every aerial be able to make use of it, why not instead have only the aerials with a noticeable landing lag, like Peach's Fair, Brawl Falco's Fair, most Dairs, ect... and instead only have the lag reduce to a lag that is just a tiny bit less than a "normal" aerial. This way it keeps it all even and tried not to favor on weight set of characters to much and makes the laggy moves require more work to be put in for them.

I'm not talking about the same "camping" you are. What i was referring to would be closer to stalling, sorry for the misunderstanding. The difference between hovering out of ganondorf's range on kongo jungle to wait out the clock and using falco's lasers to add damage and keep an enemy away is a large one, and using the same words for both is certainly not the way to go.

Meta Knight may be the primary reason for the LGL, but he isn't the only one. While MK's planking game was by far the most OP, other characters can still utilize it well, Marth and Pikachu being some upper tier examples. You can't say there is literally no other reason when there certainly are other reasons.

There was a Limit to L cancelling thread that was started a long time ago that i think lists some good points on the topic of l cancelling. I cannot seem to find it, however.

 

[pitthekit]

lol my bad you are right, we can hop, but we can't control our falling speed. We can't double jump. We can't air dodge. So to all of you who say wavedashing had to go because it was unnatural, you have a lot of mechanics to remove, not just from Smash but from any FICTIONAL game. And hold up... how is Link's up b even possible?

I wished I could calculate how much energy it would require to even pull a feat such as an aerial version of links up special lol.

 

[Niko Mar]

Which mod has come under fire from all ends of the earth? Which mod has caused an even bigger division in the fanbase? Not Brawl.
I'd better leave now, I've already turned this into a flame war as it is. But ask me this? Why can't we just have both? What is so appalling that we need to make sure it never happens again. Why must we treat it like a mistake, a failure, the worst game of all time? Why can't we just accept it as what it is and move on?

Quick! Hop in the van so we can jet outta here!!