The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[Violenceman]

We're comparing apples to oranges here.
Give me one good, legit example of fighting, either as a game or in real life, that is both competitive and hype to watch and doesn't take high technical skill?
Of course, I suppose that 'competitive' and 'hype' are subjective notions. How about depth?
Being a martial artist, I can say with absolute certitude that fighting in real life takes a hell of a lot more tech skill than playing chess, and has a greater amount of strategic depth due things like physics and execution factoring into the near infinite amount of strategies, tactics, execution, opponent response. Chess is more finite, though still deep.

Edit: Double post but I don' gibba FOXTROT

I know this isn't exactly what you are asking, but your post makes a nice jumping off point for mine.

Let's compare Boxing to MMA I am in no way saying Boxing does not require high technical skill, because it does, but the point of the thread seems to be that, logically, MMA is a much deeper, more skilled form of competition. You have a wider variety of Martial Arts that you can employ and more options for tactics and techniques allowed by the rules of the game. Yet, I would not agree with that sentiment. I think Boxing is just as, if not more, deep and skillful.

I know it has been said already, but complexity for complexity's sake does not automatically make an experience deeper. In fact, limitations and restrictions can actually do more for making a game enriching and deep. You can't think outside of the box if the box is too large to fully comprehend, you know?

 

[Big-Cat]

Could you list some of those games for me, if it's not too much trouble?

Wavedashing, as a term, came from Tekken with the Mishima's Mist Step/Crouch Dash. To this day, certain characters with such a crouch dash (the Mishimas and Armor King) are able to cancel into one crouch dash after another with the right inputs.

On the topic of tech skill, here's what I think it should be ultimately. The individual inputs should be relatively simplistic, but stringing them all together is the hard part. Guilty Gear's inputs are seen in just about every other 2D fighting game, but what makes it difficult execution wise is applying them all together and at a rapid pace. For someone like me, it needs to evolve to the point of becoming instinctive. I'm not thinking about the execution to do Millia's Ring or where to set Bridget's yo-yo when I get a knockdown, I just do it - note I hardly play GG, but I know enough.

That being said, inputs need to make sense. Melee's wavedash input is not intuitive to many, and I can see why. Meanwhile, both alternatives of crouch dash inputs in Tekken (f,N,d,d/f and qcf) make more sense because if you were to attempt those motions in real life, it seems more natural. This is likely the same reasoning behind such inputs for specials in other fighting games.

L-Canceling is one that simply does not make sense given its design. It cuts aerial landing recovery by half. With no cost to attempting L-Cancelling, you can try every time with no loss in health, meter, etc. If you were to give it a cost, the cost would likely not justify the reward like it does with Guilty Gear's Romantic Cancel which lets you instantly cancel most things for half of the meter bar. Now let's compare this to perfect shielding. While debateably still not perfect, there can definitely be a risk to deciding to attempt perfect shielding as the opponent can try to mess with your rhythm and do some mixup like a throw or somethingelse.

 

[pitthekit]

If two robots fought and each knew exactly what the other move would make and could punish it somehow- what would happen
I think nothing would happen it would be a boring lol match.

 

[mimgrim]

Chess.

Highly competitive.

No technical or mechanical skill required.

Just sharp brains and a competitive spirit.

But if you want a video game example...

Pokemon. And don't tell me it's not competitive.

Something being competitive isn't reliant on tech skill, mechanical skill or muscle memory. It's reliant on the attitude of the competitors. Melee would be NOTHING if it wasn't for the community. Communities easily make or break a competitive scene.

That's not to say that tech skill doesn't make a game deeper, but it's not necessary to have a good competitive experience.


You may have it with the new ledge mechanics.

I suppose I was hoping to much for you to give a fighting game as an example. :/

Should have figured you would use a friggen board game or RPG as an example.

Guess I should have specified more on what I meant by "legit". >_>

 

[DraginHikari]

The point was just more in regards to the fact that competition is merely a skill factor that can be determined in some way and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how the fighting game community determines it.

From as casual outlook as I am not a competitive player myself that sort of how I see much of the situation with Smash in general. Smash is not a standard fighting game in regards to how it is played and how it was designed which play a huge role in that. Most fighting games are generally considered more technical then smash just because it was intended to be by design. Most games like SF have you in a very confined amount of movement space, you always face your opponent and nearly all attacks and combinations of based on very specific control inputs and reaction time.

Smash on the other had has a fair simplier set of instructions and the overall less direct controller inputs meaning the competitive nature of the game is based on an entire different set of standards and the techs that are available also have to reflect that aspect. That's why I think a some people are saying adding techs for the sake of adding techs aren't necessarily going to improve the overall experience.

 

[mimgrim]

From as casual outlook as I am not a competitive player myself that sort of how I see much of the situation with Smash in general. Smash is not a standard fighting game in regards to how it is played and how it was designed which play a huge role in that. Most fighting games are generally considered more technical then smash just because it was intended to be by design. Most games like SF have you in a very confined amount of movement space, you always face your opponent and nearly all attacks and combinations of based on very specific control inputs and reaction time.

Smash on the other had has a fair simplier set of instructions and the overall less direct controller inputs meaning the competitive nature of the game is based on an entire different set of standards and the techs that are available also have to reflect that aspect. That's why I think a some people are saying adding techs for the sake of adding techs aren't necessarily going to improve the overall experience.

First off to point out, you aren't a casual. You may not be a competitive gamer, but you definitely ain't a casual as you are on a fan site for a videogame and know a lot more then a casual would about the game.


Now for the rest of your first paragraph. Smash isn't a standard fighter, this is true, but it still shares similar elements.

As for the second one. Smash is a game that is also about freedom of movement. So this means the more movement options generally the better. Wavedashing definitely adds to that in Smash. L-cancel can also be argued to increase movement options.

 

[Renji64]

It is because alot of people suck to put it simple. Sakurai did set out to make his take on the fighting genre and he made melee for the hardcore audience even tho melee has some of the simplest controlls and wavedashing it's self itsn't hard it is a 2 button input and L-canceling takes some practice. People or (Casuals) Felt like these are glitches and upset they couldn't keep up with the wii's audience he made that ballon fighter sequel called brawl. Smash will continue to degrade in skill after brawl's release due to most people are stupid. I love more advance techs to learn and more movement options is great. If you enjoyed melee sakurai abandoned you. Notice People like to try to say brawl is like chess it isn't anything like it. It is pretty much a camping waiting game with ballon fighter pyshics and no tech skill or combos.

 

[LancerStaff]

Going back to our little Miiverse tiff, I said Sakurai found it and left it in because there wasn't much time left and he probably didn't think it'd effect the metagame so much. Anyways, I'll welcome a new technique with open arms when Sakurai fully intends for it to exist and it's up front and something even casuals understand, but not necessarily master. Sakurai doesn't want the games to rely on 'secret' techniques with arbitrary movements.

 

[J1NG]

Wavedashing, as a term, came from Tekken with the Mishima's Mist Step/Crouch Dash. To this day, certain characters with such a crouch dash (the Mishimas and Armor King) are able to cancel into one crouch dash after another with the right inputs.

Thanks for that bit of info. I'll be sure to take a look at that.

 

[Orngeblu]

A lot of people just simply don't want to learn it, from the conversations I've had with people about this, one being because they feel cheated when someone uses it against them and they don't want to use it solely because of that reason. I've heard someone say they don't like Melee because they don't want to learn wavedashing, but they feel like they are at a disadvantage for not utilizing it.

 

[pitthekit]

A lot of people just simply don't want to learn it, from the conversations I've had with people about this, one being because they feel cheated when someone uses it against them and they don't want to use it solely because of that reason. I've heard someone say they don't like Melee because they don't want to learn wavedashing, but they feel like they are at a disadvantage for not utilizing it.

Wow how could people not want to adapt with new tech skills or options... I like getting brand new options and even be in awe when I see people perform something I never seen in smash/a game.

 

[Big-Cat]

Then they're scrubs. If the game allows it and it's not game breaking, you really can't cheat in a fighting game.

You may outclass the opponent but that's not your fault.

 

[Orngeblu]

Wow how could people not want to adapt with new tech skills or options... I like getting brand new options and even be in awe when I see people perform something I never seen in smash/a game.

It's like playing League of Legends and not wanting to learn how to last-hit minions.

 

[Orngeblu]

Then they're scrubs. If the game allows it and it's not game breaking, you really can't cheat in a fighting game.

You may outclass the opponent but that's not your fault.

I'm gonna remember this for future reference.

Edit: Oops, double post.

 

[pitthekit]

It's like playing League of Legends and not wanting to learn how to last-hit minions.

I always wanted to learn LoL but I am too dumb for it.

 

[DraginHikari]

First off to point out, you aren't a casual. You may not be a competitive gamer, but you definitely ain't a casual as you are on a fan site for a videogame and know a lot more then a casual would about the game.


Now for the rest of your first paragraph. Smash isn't a standard fighter, this is true, but it still shares similar elements.

As for the second one. Smash is a game that is also about freedom of movement. So this means the more movement options generally the better. Wavedashing definitely adds to that in Smash. L-cancel can also be argued to increase movement options.

Admittively I probably did use the term casual too loosey in regards to my situation. I don't directly particate in the competitive seen due to a number of coornation problems I have. So I'm enough of a fan of a series to enjoy the game and not be naive about what the competitive community is, even if I don't directly particatipate. Given the sometimes black and white nature of the discussion sometimes I would be considered casual just on the basis that I don't compete in the general sense. I suppose I'm actually somewhere in the middle now that I think about it.

The only similar I see with Smash in regards to something like SF is basically the main goal at the end of the competition itself.

Forgive me if I don't understand the nature of Wavedashing myself entirely, Wavedashing is mostly the result of how the game physics react to the directional air dash from Melee if I'm right? While L-cancel was a result of how the physics react to the use of the shield under particular circumstances? If that is the case I guess my point would be in they didn't necessarily have to shoe-in techs for the sake of having techs they were just a result of what the engine could already do which I always feel is the best way to go about it. I think subtle techniques are more beneifical that way.

So as far as Waving Dashing and L-Cancel being back, if they did put them back in I wouldn't complain I just wouldn't put them back in for the sake of putting them back in just for the sake of having extra techs.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Personally I just find then annoying to pull off. I mean, yeah, I can wavedash and L-Cancel, but I don't think it's fun by any means, it's more of an annoyance in order to gain any sort of free movement. I'd prefer if landing lag was reduced all across the board in general. Yes, it might add an extra layer to the game, but they aren't fun to pull off imo, and they honestly aren't even very hard to do either, so it's a very thin layer if you ask me. The fast movement is fun, but that can easily be achieved by making the gameplay be much faster instead of requiring the player to pull off extra button combinations just to not land flat on your face after using a move.

I'm not so much against wavedashing as I am against L-Cancelling actually. I wouldn't really mind the return of wavedashing since that's more situational, but keep L-Cancelling a million miles away from the game. It's not fun, it doesn't require a whole lot of skill, it's just an annoyance.

 

[mimgrim]

Admittively I probably did use the term casual too loosey in regards to my situation. I don't directly particate in the competitive seen due to a number of coornation problems I have. So I'm enough of a fan of a series to enjoy the game and not be naive about what the competitive community is, even if I don't directly particatipate. Given the sometimes black and white nature of the discussion sometimes I would be considered casual just on the basis that I don't compete in the general sense. I suppose I'm actually somewhere in the middle now that I think about it.

You would be a gamer, just not a competitive one. But a gamer nonetheless.

The only similar I see with Smash in regards to something like SF is basically the main goal at the end of the competition itself.

It's the seem basic concept between all fighting games, even Smash, that makes them similar. Smash has the same concepts and so people can transition to or from other fighting through/to it.

Forgive me if I don't understand the nature of Wavedashing myself entirely, Wavedashing is mostly the result of how the game physics react to the directional air dash from Melee if I'm right? While L-cancel was a result of how the physics react to the use of the shield under particular circumstances? If that is the case I guess my point would be in they didn't necessarily have to shoe-in techs for the sake of having techs they were just a result of what the engine could already do which I always feel is the best way to go about it. I think subtle techniques are more beneifical that way.

Wavedash is manipulating the air dodge system in Melee. If you dodge while in the air and are close to the ground if you angle it towards the ground it will slide you forward or backwards depends on the directing you went with, how much depends from character to character. It seems like an odd way to increase movement but it increases you movement nonetheless and Smash, like Tekken, has a big focus on movement.

You know about landing lag on aerials right? Well L-cancel basically reduces that in half for all characters, in 64 it reduced it to 0, by pressing L, R, or Z right before you hit the ground. This indriectly increases you maximum momentum because it makes your character faster.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't think wavedashing is cheating or anything, I just feel it's arbitrary. You won't see me saying 'you're playing the game wrong' or anything like that.

But I think it's silly to have so many people asking 'Can we wavedash in SSB4?' and to have people that feel entitled to having wavedashing in SSB.

 

[D-idara]

Uhh dark souls had complicated boss fights with multiple ways to beat them simply... They did not just give you one attack value and have the boss have 9999999 hit points...and a lot of people enjoy accomplish things on hard games.

Wave dashing is a commonly used mobility option, almost everyone can perform it under pressure.
Also is pressing jump and imputing an air dodge to the ground even harder than performing that?
But yes I agree wave dashing should be made easier heck if any technical skill can be made easier do it! Just don't remove it.

Now I hope smash 4 will have lots of hit stuns for combos: this is something casuals and the competitive crowd can actually agree on lol.

Edit. Would wavedash be easier if it was imputed by jumping and pressing the Z left button to go left or pressing the z right button to go right?
Using the wii u pro controller of course.

I wouldn't mind that, although I still want no wavedash.

 

[pitthekit]

I wouldn't mind that, although I still want no wavedash.

Do you have a favourite advanced technique? In brawl my fave technique was glide tossing.

 

[elatedshyguy]

The point was just more in regards to the fact that competition is merely a skill factor that can be determined in some way and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how the fighting game community determines it.

From as casual outlook as I am not a competitive player myself that sort of how I see much of the situation with Smash in general. Smash is not a standard fighting game in regards to how it is played and how it was designed which play a huge role in that. Most fighting games are generally considered more technical then smash just because it was intended to be by design. Most games like SF have you in a very confined amount of movement space, you always face your opponent and nearly all attacks and combinations of based on very specific control inputs and reaction time.

Smash on the other had has a fair simplier set of instructions and the overall less direct controller inputs meaning the competitive nature of the game is based on an entire different set of standards and the techs that are available also have to reflect that aspect. That's why I think a some people are saying adding techs for the sake of adding techs aren't necessarily going to improve the overall experience.

Bringing back wavedashing isn't just adding tech for the sake of adding tech. It adds approach options, it allows to chain combos better, etc. You are saying it like wavedashing doesn't add nothing and is just there, no it has multiple purposes.

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

I know this isn't exactly what you are asking, but your post makes a nice jumping off point for mine.

Let's compare Boxing to MMA I am in no way saying Boxing does not require high technical skill, because it does, but the point of the thread seems to be that, logically, MMA is a much deeper, more skilled form of competition. You have a wider variety of Martial Arts that you can employ and more options for tactics and techniques allowed by the rules of the game. Yet, I would not agree with that sentiment. I think Boxing is just as, if not more, deep and skillful.

I know it has been said already, but complexity for complexity's sake does not automatically make an experience deeper. In fact, limitations and restrictions can actually do more for making a game enriching and deep. You can't think outside of the box if the box is too large to fully comprehend, you know?

Comparing fighting to a video game is silly. It's sounds strange but usually the more rules you strip away from a fight the more spontaneous and random fight outcomes become.

Like if I do traditional martial arts point system sparring coordination reach speed etc become more important. As compared to MMA where sheer force and power can over come the smallest nuances of the reach game.

And with all the rules removed brute force can overcome a hell of a lot. Simply rushing your opponent into a 'ground and pound' scenario can let any mediocre fighter overcome a great technical fighter, because **** like corkscrewing the other Guy's eye, or crushing his wind pipe, stomping his ribs in etc.. are quick easy fight enders that are simple for anyone to do. Boxing is generally a lot more technical than MMA.

 

[Black Mantis]

No one educated thinks that tech skill, in and of itself, is a bad thing. Hell, pressing buttons on a controller is a tech skill, and a non-trivial one at that (try handing twin sticks to someone who has never gamed before, and see how far they get in any game).

What people have a problem with is tech skill gone crazy, tech skill implemented for no other reason that to have tech skill. And tech skill for the sake of it is kind of antithetical to Smash, a series which prides itself on accessibility and simplicity.

Wavedashing wasn't a problem, as a concept and a method of movement. Yes, it's true that wavedashing added strategic complexity to the game, and had it done that in a simple, intuitive way, everyone would have loved it. But, it wasn't simple and intuitive. To perform it, you had to do actions COMPLETELY unrelated to the desired result; explain to me how it makes sense to dash forward by first jumping straight up, then air dashing into the ground. It made no sense, as a set of actions, and therefore was tech skill for no reason.

L-cancelling was the same thing. There was literally no situation in existence where you would consciously choose increased aerial landing lag. None. But, in order to halve the lag, you had to make an arbitrary and unrelated action upon landing (shielding). All that L-cancelling served to do was increase the number of inputs a player was required to do in order to excel at the game. It was an arbitrary APM increase.

And, this isn't Starcraft, nor is it Ultimate Marvel.

If wavedashing could be implemented in a simple, intuitive way, like double-tapping a direction, then it would be a fine addition to Smash's existing movement mechanics. There would be NO reason to dislike it, strategically or mechanically. But, until that happens, yes, I think it's perfectly rational in the context of Smash to dislike arbitrary and unintuitive tech skill for the sake of having tech skill barriers to entry.

This all of this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Big-Cat]

Martial arts as an analogy is very iffy. When you turn it into a sport with rules, it gets complicated.

As a means of self defense, you use whatever you can to survive. Outside of the law, there are no rules in a fight out of self defense.

 

[Black Mantis]

Notice People like to try to say brawl is like chess it isn't anything like it. It is pretty much a camping waiting game with ballon fighter pyshics and no tech skill or combos.

You were saying?

 

[elatedshyguy]

I don't know if you guys just don't see it the way I do but, wavedashing isn't teching just to tech. It gave us ways to connect grounded attacks, it gave us ways to quickly get in and get out of situations, it added faster movement. It was a nice technique that wasn't purposeless like L-cancelling. It added another layer. I mean look at Fox's Thunder's Combo, look at Waveshining combos, look at Falco's Pillaring, all awesome combos that are capable because of wavedashing. And I don't see another way Smash can add wavedashing without it being the way it is done in Melee. And to whoever argued that it is to difficult to do in the heat of battle, do you even watch Melee matches? And to all of you who always say that techs aren't what make Melee great than what is? And if you say it's faster physics than you are wrong because Brawl + was a Brawl mod that removed landing lag on aerials without L-cancelling, it made everyone fall and move faster, it corrected Brawl's hitstun, it did all these things to make it a balance between Brawl and Melee minus the tech skill and it got nowhere near as much respect than Project M which is aiming to be Melee 2.0. Project M is played at big tournaments as if it weren't a mod. Brawl + was out longer and didn't get any of this. Don't lie to others and don't lie to yourself and admit that tech skills is what added that layer of depth that made Melee great.

 

[Niko Mar]

Oh god, another tech argument. I should probably sit in a corner for this, but I'll put myself out there for crucifixion.

From all the years that I've played Smash, those technical skills are simply unneeded IMO. L-cancelling is something that you would literally want to do all the time, so what's the point. You could compare that to another simple motion, but it's more of an unnecessary complication. That's like if in Street Fighter, you had to do a backwards-fireball motion before every forwards one for a generally better fireball (with no downsides whatsoever). You shouldn't need to solve a Rubik's Cube to be good at a game. I also don't care about what happens to wave-dashing, as I think it's unnatural to be sliding across the screen at top speeds.

So, as I said before, I think these skills are unneeded. Shouldn't the game be about reading moves, tricking your opponent, using the right moves at the right time, and following up on make-shift combos. You don't need these extra skills for that, just speed-up the god damn game.

 

[elatedshyguy]

You were saying?

That was a pretty good Brawl match, I am not going to lie lol.

 

[nessokman]

Call me casual, but I'd rather keep smash as simple as possible.also, I'm against superfluous techniques that make playing smash rocket science for everyone. God only knows how ****ed up online will be. Noobs against people wavedashing all over the screen?

Don't say that competitive players will stick to fighting other competitive players, as a rule of nature the strong pick on the weak, and there will no doubt be people abusing these techniques online to beat down noobies for fun.

Keep it simple, smash 64 did, and it is still incredible.

 

[pitthekit]

You were saying?

Wow someone camped in melee with peach on a stage with high platforms.

Pull out a m2k vs ally match on YouTube camping galore.

You can camp in both games but camping is a better option in brawl.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Oh god, another tech argument. I should probably sit in a corner for this, but I'll put myself out there for crucifixion.

From all the years that I've played Smash, those technical skills are simply unneeded IMO. L-cancelling is something that you would literally want to do all the time, so what's the point. You could compare that to another simple motion, but it's more of an unnecessary complication. That's like if in Street Fighter, you had to do a backwards-fireball motion before every forwards one for a generally better fireball (with no downsides whatsoever). You shouldn't need to solve a Rubik's Cube to be good at a game. I also don't care about what happens to wave-dashing, as I think it's unnatural to be sliding across the screen at top speeds.

So, as I said before, I think these skills are unneeded. Shouldn't the game be about reading moves, tricking your opponent, using the right moves at the right time, and following up on make-shift combos. You don't need these extra skills for that, just speed-up the god damn game.

We all know L-cancelling was pointless no one is arguing that. And it's a video game it doesn't matter if it's unnatural, it is fictional, double jumping is unnatural yet many games still have it. Wavedashing added to approach options, it allowed us to chain moves better and it complemented mindgames.

 

[pitthekit]

If rather keep smash as simple as possible.also, I'm against superfluous techniques that make playing smash rocket science for everyone. God only knows how ****ed up online will be. Noobs against people wavedashing all over the screen?

Don't say that competitive players will stick to fighting other competitive players, as a rule of nature the strong pick on the weak, and there will no doubt be people abusing these techniques online to beat down noobies for fun.

Keep it simple, smash 64 did, and it is still incredible.

Smash 64 is simple but all the matchs look the same, they just consist of zoning and spacing! Sure it is cool after like 2 days but then it gets boring.

I like complexity as it make things more enjoyable. But that is just me I could be wrong

 

[DraginHikari]

Bringing back wavedashing isn't just adding tech for the sake of adding tech. It adds approach options, it allows to chain combos better, etc. You are saying it like wavedashing doesn't add nothing and is just there, no it has multiple purposes.

I'm definitely not saying that at all I'm well aware of what wavedashing is and how useful it is. My point wasn't attacking wavedashing as you may have viewed that. At this point it's a null arugment since based on what we've seen it seems that Smash 4 is going to be using the Brawl based air dodge, now this is obiviously up in the air as the only time it's been seen in older videos, but at this point the only way they could bring it back if they restored the Melee style directional airdodge if you are referring to the way it was used in Melee. If they did that wuold be a clearly different argument. My point wasn't on wavedashing on whether I thought it was useful and more of the item that devs shouldn't try to force feed complex tech moves into the system for the sake of having tech moves rather then letting them flow from the physics and gameplay.

Don't lie to others and don't lie to yourself and admit that tech skills is what added that layer of depth that made Melee great.

I would argue that Melee was great without the depth as you refer to it, just depends on what your looking for really.

 

[Niko Mar]

We all know L-cancelling was pointless no one is arguing that. And it's a video game it doesn't matter if it's unnatural, it is fictional, double jumping is unnatural yet many games still have it. Wavedashing added to approach options, it allowed us to chain moves better and it complemented mindgames.

Yeah, but if the game was faster in general would it really be needed?

Lol I know the game is fictional too, but it's just so ~weird~ to me. It'd be like if they slid across the floor at top speeds for movement in DMC (without any real moving animations). It seems more like a glitch with the way it is.

 

[elatedshyguy]

I'm definitely not saying that at all I'm well aware of what wavedashing is and how useful it is. My point wasn't attacking wavedashing as you may have viewed that. At this point it's a null arugment since based on what we've seen it seems that Smash 4 is going to be using the Brawl based air dodge, now this is obiviously up in the air as the only time it's been seen in older videos, but at this point the only way they could bring it back if they restored the Melee style directional airdodge if you are referring to the way it was used in Melee. If they did that wuold be a clearly different argument. My point wasn't on wavedashing on whether I thought it was useful and more of the item that devs shouldn't try to force feed complex tech moves into the system for the sake of having tech moves rather then letting them flow from the physics and gameplay.



I would argue that Melee was great without the depth as you refer to it, just depends on what your looking for really.

There is no way wavedashing could flow from the physics if they don't "force" in the Melee air dodge. However, this is the closest thing to a reasonable argument I have read in this entire thread. Everyone is saying it is unnatural and I am saying it is a fictional video game that contains double jumping, anamorphic creatures and flying platforms which are all highly unnatural. They are also arguing that it is too hard, which I just don't see to be true as it is far to simple a concept.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Yeah, but if the game was faster in general would it really be needed?

Lol I know the game is fictional too, but it's just so ~weird~ to me. It'd be like if they slid across the floor at top speeds for movement in DMC (without any real moving animations). It seems more like a glitch with the way it is.

Yes it would be needed because it allows for options for connecting ground combos.

Let's say I forward smash you and I dash after you I can only connect with my dash attack.

If I forward smash you and wavedash towards you I can follow up with a neutral attack, any tilt attack, any smash attack, etc.

 

[mimgrim]

So, as I said before, I think these skills are unneeded. Shouldn't the game be about reading moves, tricking your opponent, using the right moves at the right time, and following up on make-shift combos. You don't need these extra skills for that, just speed-up the god damn game.

Tech skill adds to all of what you stated here, especially makeshift combos.

Speeding up the game only helps so much. Without Wavedash many things in Melee wouldn't have been able to have been done, and Melee is basically guaranteed to be a faster game because Sakurai has went for a speed in between Melee and Brawl. Wavedash isn't about speed, it's about increasing your momentum.

Like I have said earlier, one of the most important features of Smash is movement, and anything that increases the movement should be inherently good.

Another thing people need to realize is that tech skill helps add to the skill gap, which is never ever a bad thing. Sure you have a skill gab with just the basics, but tech skill gives even more.

 

[nessokman]

Unpopular opinion

Spoiler

meleesucks

Spoiler

 

[Black Mantis]

Wow someone camped in melee with peach on a stage with high platforms.

Pull out a m2k vs ally match on YouTube camping galore.

You can camp in both games but camping is a better option in brawl.

Melee is not always entertaining. Brawl is not always boring.