The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[elatedshyguy]

Dude every one could play Melee and did. A true casual will not care about advance techniques and still enjoy the game and will move onto the next game no matter what. They will be happy with just about anything as long as it keeps the basics, which Melee did

Exactly!

They just don't want to understand that lol. A casual player has no interest in going to tournaments or getting better at the game. He just wants to Brawl with some friends when he can't go to the movies or some ****. He's gonna be playing with items on. THAT's a casual player.

 

[Renji64]

Exactly!

They just don't want to understand that lol. A casual player has no interest in going to tournaments or getting better at the game. He just wants to Brawl with some friends when he can't go to the movies or some ****. He's gonna be playing with items on. THAT's a casual player.

Which is why i don't understand why sakurai keeps making the game watered down. Casual players usually play with items and don't care about changes only roster updates.

 

[DraginHikari]

It's called development direction and business operations. Things are not always as clear cut as one would like it to be.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Guys let's stop arguing okay? Read this article.

http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-...m_source=Kotaku_Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow

You will learn that all our argument will be rendered moot when Smash 4 comes out because whether you like Melee or Brawl, tech or no tech, Sakurai admits he makes the games not for the competitive scene but for the casual players. However, he said he doesn't ignore us the competitive scene because he knows the fun of playing to win. Apparently, he was a SF beast back in his day lol. What does that mean? Smash will be simple from the outside for all to enjoy and he will include little things for us the competitive community like he always did. Okay?

 

[lordvaati]

Guys let's stop arguing okay? Read this article.

http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-...m_source=Kotaku_Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow

You will learn that all our argument will be rendered moot when Smash 4 comes out because whether you like Melee or Brawl, tech or no tech, Sakurai admits he makes the games not for the competitive scene but for the casual players. However, he said he doesn't ignore us the competitive scene because he knows the fun of playing to win. Apparently, he was a SF beast back in his day lol. What does that mean? Smash will be simple from the outside for all to enjoy and he will include little things for us the competitive community like he always did. Okay?

Exactly, which is why I find it kind of annoying how some people go on crazy paranoia spread thinking the game will still be too simple/casual ( like the people who are freaking out by a Lucario pic showing something that looks like tripping.)

We need another gameplay vid, hopefully on a Direct to calm people down.

 

[Renji64]

Guys let's stop arguing okay? Read this article.

http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-...m_source=Kotaku_Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow

You will learn that all our argument will be rendered moot when Smash 4 comes out because whether you like Melee or Brawl, tech or no tech, Sakurai admits he makes the games not for the competitive scene but for the casual players. However, he said he doesn't ignore us the competitive scene because he knows the fun of playing to win. Apparently, he was a SF beast back in his day lol. What does that mean? Smash will be simple from the outside for all to enjoy and he will include little things for us the competitive community like he always did. Okay?

I don't trust anything he says alot of his in some of his interviews he says he likes the ideas of equals fighting and smash was his take on the competive fighter genre. Then he seems to only cater to the casual audience. Ever since brawl it seems if you enjoyed melee he doesn't care if you purchase smash games or not. It isn't like nintendo has a ton of competive games to choose from brawl i couldn't even enjoy without the mods that came out. I'll still try to hope for the best at this point.

 

[LancerStaff]

No. Give me a source of him saying it exactly, or all you were doing was going under a presumption that cannot be proven. I don't want a source where you twist the words into a different meaning, I want a source of Sakurai saying exactly "He set out to make a game in which tournament level play would be completely understood by casuals with having to look up what wavedashing is." Anything less is not acceptable.

Pardon me for not remembering correctly.
"I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years." So he wants something casuals can play...
"If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in, then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone." Something simpler...
Heck, the article is titled "Melee was "too difficult"". Why would he be talking about casual play by itself, when it's basically the same in Brawl?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Melee was never hard. And even if it was I was too busy having fun with it to care.

 

[LancerStaff]

Melee was never hard. And even if it was I was too busy having fun with it to care.

Sakurai's words, not mine.

 

[mimgrim]

Pardon me for not remembering correctly.
"I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years." So he wants something casuals can play...
"If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in, then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone." Something simpler...
Heck, the article is titled "Melee was "too difficult"". Why would he be talking about casual play by itself, when it's basically the same in Brawl?

Casuals can and will play it no matter what. They don't care about ATs and it doesn't affect them in anyway.

Look, I don't care about the whole Melee VS Brawl thing, I like both equally and will defend both when the chance arises. Brawl, however, did cause a rift, undeniably. And it was, arguably, a middle finger to the competitive community and it is never good to alienate any part of the fanbase, and the reason so many people loved Melee was because of how deep it is and for a lot of people Brawl took that deepness away. Sakurai seems to have realized this with Smash 4 however, or at least that's what he says.

 

[pitthekit]

I just hope smash 4 allows combos really. I know sakurai is not gonna add wavedash even if it gave you mobility options and more ground to air combos.

I would not mind new advance techniques in smash 4 as long as they add depth and complexity(?)

I want smash 4 to equally balance defence and offence!

Smash 64 support pure aggression punishing you greatly if you shield an attack.so retreating was a better option.

Smash melee still support aggression although some defensive measures can punish attacks(wavedash!)

Smash brawl support defence too much making most slow characters frame wise with bad oos options horrible.
Brawls buffering system and iasa frames helped defence and offence.
Too bad brawl was way too slow and lack of hit stun made perfect combos scarce.


It seems every new official instalment of smash makes defence better. Although I wonder if smash 4 will follow the same trend.

 

[LancerStaff]

All Sakurai is doing is removing tripping and making the characters faster. The rift would of happened even if the only differences between Melee and Brawl were techniques. Heck, I defend both too.
My point is that SSB was never ment to be competitive in Melee's sense. What do you think Sakurai means by "Melee was too hard"? I believe it means the entire Melee competitive scene (and indirectly Brawl's because it springboarded off of Melee) was never supposed to exist.
Why are people complaining about something that was never supposed to exist in the first place?

 

[mimgrim]

All Sakurai is doing is removing tripping and making the characters faster. The rift would of happened even if the only differences between Melee and Brawl were techniques. Heck, I defend both too.
My point is that SSB was never ment to be competitive in Melee's sense. What do you think Sakurai means by "Melee was too hard"? I believe it means the entire Melee competitive scene (and indirectly Brawl's because it springboarded off of Melee) was never supposed to exist.
Why are people complaining about something that was never supposed to exist in the first place?

Oh so the competitive scene should just die and go away, is that it? A game developer has no power over a competitive scene forming around a game. I doubt it was intended for a competitive scene to exist for Street Fighter initially and now look were it is. That's a horrible and illogical argument and you should feel bad for saying that.

 

[lordvaati]

All Sakurai is doing is removing tripping and making the characters faster. The rift would of happened even if the only differences between Melee and Brawl were techniques. Heck, I defend both too.
My point is that SSB was never ment to be competitive in Melee's sense. What do you think Sakurai means by "Melee was too hard"? I believe it means the entire Melee competitive scene (and indirectly Brawl's because it springboarded off of Melee) was never supposed to exist.
Why are people complaining about something that was never supposed to exist in the first place?

I think he was referring to the fact he worked on the game 13 months nonstop, which took a huge toll on him.

 

[Renji64]

So if you enjoyed melee should you purchase smash 4 at all?

 

[pitthekit]

So if you enjoyed melee should you purchase smash 4 at all?

We will have to wait for the holy words of mewtwoking.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Not exactly, but something more like 'There should be a marginal difference between casual and hardcore players'. Wavedashing isn't exactly marginal,is it?

Well, wavedashing is a great tool to utilize, but isn't near as impactful as a lot of people here will have you think. For instance, Ken didn't know how to wavedash shortly after its discovery, but was crushing everyone at tournaments. Many of his opponents were using the technique effectively.

 

[pitthekit]

Well, wavedashing is a great tool to utilize, but isn't near as impactful as a lot of people here will have you think. For instance, Ken didn't know how to wavedash shortly after its discovery, but was crushing everyone at tournaments. Many of his opponents were using the technique effectively.

If wave dashing never existed people said they would dash or walk. Although it would be less effective.

 

[Empyrean]

We will have to wait for the holy words of mewtwoking.

I'm pretty sure I've heard somewhere that m2k and Armada said that they wish to become the best SSB4 players when it comes out. My memory might be lying tho, so don't quote me on this.

 

[pitthekit]

I'm pretty sure I've heard somewhere that m2k and Armada said that they wish to become the best SSB4 players when it comes out. My memory might be lying tho, so don't quote me on this.

You heard correct mewtwoking and armada are going to become the best.

Unless smash 4 sucks

 

[Empyrean]

You heard correct mewtwoking and armada are going to become the best.

Unless smash 4 sucks

I'm hyped to see them in action.

I strongly doubt Smash 4 will suck. I'm a firm believer that Sakurai will slip in a few techs as a nod to the competitive scene. From what it looks like right now, I think that most of the Brawl community will move on to Smash 4. As for the Melee community, I don't really expect them to transition as much, whether or not the game is good or bad. People should really stop to tell them to move on, it's their choice what game they decide to play.

 

[Niko Mar]

You heard correct mewtwoking and armada are going to become the best.

Only if they can beat me.

 

[Renji64]

I'm hyped to see them in action.

I strongly doubt Smash 4 will suck. I'm a firm believer that Sakurai will slip in a few techs as a nod to the competitive scene. From what it looks like right now, I think that most of the Brawl community will move on to Smash 4. As for the Melee community, I don't really expect them to transition as much, whether or not the game is good or bad. People should really stop to tell them to move on, it's their choice what game they decide to play.

^I hope this is true.

 

[JediLink]

My point is that SSB was never ment to be competitive in Melee's sense. What do you think Sakurai means by "Melee was too hard"? I believe it means the entire Melee competitive scene (and indirectly Brawl's because it springboarded off of Melee) was never supposed to exist.
Why are people complaining about something that was never supposed to exist in the first place?

What is this I don't even. Do you really expect people on Smashboards (i.e. a forum for competitive Smash players) to not care about competitive Smash?

Sakurai's goal was to make a fighting game that was more accessible to people outside of the genre, and he succeeded. Melee is extremely simple to learn. Just watch this one minute video, and you already know everything you need to compete with your friends.

However, we all know that that's not even close to everything Melee offered. All well as the basics in the video, there were also other simple techniques like short-hopping, fast falling, pummeling and air dodging, intermediate techniques like tether recoveries, power shielding and wall jumping, and even advanced techniques like crouch cancelling and DI, all of which were deliberately programmed into the game. Although you could get by with the basics, if you really enjoyed the game and wanted to get better at it, there was so much more to learn and discover.

Melee was made to cater to everybody. It was easy to explain the controls to non-gamers so that they could pick Pikachu and start havng fun, but hardcore gamers could compete against their friends and feel the satisfaction of learning and improving. High level competitive play is just the natural end result of this.

When you have a competitive game that caters only to casuals, it can quickly become boring once you realise that you've already figured everything out. See: Tic-tac-toe.

 

[SmashChu]

The thing is, a lot of aerials were still punishable with L cancelling, heck some moves STILL weren't viable options with it (half of Bowser's aerials for example). There needs to be a good balance of low risk and high risk options, and I feel Melee provided that for the most part.

I would like to point out that Bowser wasn't a good character by competitive standards. The cast of Melee was bipolar with the characters either being great of terrible.

Watching Melee matches, you can see that characters can do air attacks of any kind and can easily shield right after which means these moves are very safe. No matter how you slice it, L-canceling will make most moves safe as you half all the recovery times. If you had a 10 frame recover, it is now 5. If you had 5, it's 2 and a half. This means your window is barely there to counter attack/. This is why Melee delves into almost random aggression. Because there is no punishments for just attacking. This is also why competitive players struggled in Brawl and why the Japanese have done so well. The Japanese play the game like Street Fighter and, as such, they have some sort of defense. In Melee, the best defense is a better offense. Defending is pointless because the attacker has no consequence to attacking. You don't need to consider things like spacing and map control. Just go and attack him and rely on tech skills.

Watch these videos. You'll ntotice in Melee, players tend to just rush in. In Brawl, there is a lot more of a tactical play. In Brawl, the players didn't just run up to each other willy nilly. ROB wins in part because he keeps a safe distance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9ftODl_Srg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VOtACLllqg

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I would like to point out that Bowser wasn't a good character by competitive standards. The cast of Melee was bipolar with the characters either being great of terrible.

Watching Melee matches, you can see that characters can do air attacks of any kind and can easily shield right after which means these moves are very safe. No matter how you slice it, L-canceling will make most moves safe as you half all the recovery times. If you had a 10 frame recover, it is now 5. If you had 5, it's 2 and a half. This means your window is barely there to counter attack/. This is why Melee delves into almost random aggression. Because there is no punishments for just attacking. This is also why competitive players struggled in Brawl and why the Japanese have done so well. The Japanese play the game like Street Fighter and, as such, they have some sort of defense. In Melee, the best defense is a better offense. Defending is pointless because the attacker has no consequence to attacking. You don't need to consider things like spacing and map control. Just go and attack him and rely on tech skills.

Watch these videos. You'll ntotice in Melee, players tend to just rush in. In Brawl, there is a lot more of a tactical play. In Brawl, the players didn't just run up to each other willy nilly. ROB wins in part because he keeps a safe distance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9ftODl_Srg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VOtACLllqg

The argument that Brawl is a much more intelligent game is a common misconception. The only thing about Brawl is that it's defensiveness is much more noticeable.

Playing defensively in Melee used a deeper set of mechanics such as crouch canceling, wave dash out of shield, dash dancing, shield cross ups and wave landing for character positioning. Since Melee actually rewards you for being offensive you can reliably space aerials and retreat or cross them up and use your movement options to reposition yourself.

The Japanese are doing well because they are very competitive and are playing the game in the most optimum fashion. Brawl does not reward you for being offensive and perfect shielding is far too easy. Projectile based characters are dominant since there are no reflective shields and hitstun can be canceled. The lack of aerial momentum also minimizes most aerial approaches as well. Every offensive action is essentially a result of capitalizing a mistake rather than making an opening for yourself.

Melee has everything that Brawl has and then some, it's just faster.

 

[Vkrm]

Smashchu, ever heard of hungrybox?

 

[Empyrean]

Even with L-cancelling, it is still possible to time a grab well enough to stop your opponent in his tracks before he grabs you or does something else right after landing. However chances are that if you're in a situation like that, you shouldn't have been shielding for so long and should try to better space yourself away from the opponent (wavedash OoS, for example). I still agree however that L-cancelling doesn't require any skill to use and that there is no valid reason not to use it. Like many, I would much prefer that landing lag on most aerials gets decreased.

Like Eternal said, Brawl may look like it's more focused around mindgames and making good reads, but so is Melee. The only difference being that Melee has a wider plethora of ATs that enhance tactical play whereas Brawl's is more bare-bones and raw. And I guaranty you that if you just rush and attack relying on tech skill, you won't get anywhere. Powershield, crouch-cancelling, heck, even sidestepping, are good defensive options often used to punish a reckless opponent.

I do not want this game to become Brawl 2.0, nor Melee 2.0 for that matter. Like every previous entry in the franchise, it should feel completely unique, with only the simple stuff remaining the same, like rolling and sidestep.

 

[Big-Cat]

The Japanese are doing well because they are very competitive and are playing the game in the most optimum fashion. Brawl does not reward you for being offensive and perfect shielding is far too easy. Projectile based characters are dominant since there are no reflective shields and hitstun can be canceled. The lack of aerial momentum also minimizes most aerial approaches as well. Every offensive action is essentially a result of capitalizing a mistake rather than making an opening for yourself.

I never understood why there were reflective shields in the first place. You have attacks designed specifically for countering projectiles like Shine, Pit's Mirror Shield, Mario's Cape, etc. Something like projectile reflection should not be a universal thing. Besides, we already have sidestepping for EVADING projectiles.

On the topic of hitstun, isn't that because there's a glitch in the game that lets your cancel hitstun?

As for Brawl's flaws, and Melee's for the matter, you have to look at the details as to WHY they're the way they are. Brawl suffers primarily from the alleged glitch, no reduced aerial landing recovery - instead of fixing the issue, they just ignored it, floaty aerial movement, and random tripping. Then there's the general balance issues which were made most apparent with Brawl, but if the ledge changes are any indication, they're looking to make sure the universal aspects of the game (meaning not character dependent) are balanced at least.

 

[Empyrean]

I never understood why there were reflective shields in the first place. You have attacks designed specifically for countering projectiles like Shine, Pit's Mirror Shield, Mario's Cape, etc. Something like projectile reflection should not be a universal thing. Besides, we already have sidestepping for EVADING projectiles.

Some characters like Marth and Captain Falcon (essentially characters with no projectiles) really benefit from reflect-shielding. Without it, characters who can spam quick projectiles like Falco's laser can always safely approach them AND ruin their attempts of approaching. In these instances, sidestepping will not offer the same benefits. Even then, from what I've seen, there isn't a single player in the world who can reflect-shield consistently, so it's not like it's a game-changing mechanic.

The lack of hitstun is actually a glitch? I wonder how the metagame would've evolved if it was fixed early on.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yet wouldn't that reveal more balance issues with projectiles and the game in general? If Falco can outzone everyone, isn't that an additional issue?

 

[D-idara]

Exactly!

They just don't want to understand that lol. A casual player has no interest in going to tournaments or getting better at the game. He just wants to Brawl with some friends when he can't go to the movies or some ****. He's gonna be playing with items on. THAT's a casual player.

Yeah, because you're a casual if you don't play with no items, Fox only, Final Destination, right? I'm FAR from a casual gamer and I hate competitive Smash because it tries to twist the game into something it isn't.

 

[pitthekit]

Yeah, because you're a casual if you don't play with no items, Fox only, Final Destination, right? I'm FAR from a casual gamer and I hate competitive Smash because it tries to twist the game into something it isn't.

*cracks fingers

I am gonna let muster and mimgrim deal with this one.

 

[Empyrean]

Yet wouldn't that reveal more balance issues with projectiles and the game in general? If Falco can outzone everyone, isn't that an additional issue?

It is an issue, but doesn't necessarily break the game. In this case, where Falco excels at approaching/ruining other's approach, he suffers from horrible recovery. It's part of his character. Most characters in Smash (with the obvious exception of MK) work this way, and for Smash 4, it seems like Sakurai, from his statements, is going to keep it this way, if not make it even better in terms of balance.

I can see what you mean about reflect-shielding though. It only makes sense that only a select few characters make use of a reflector move. I find it funny that those characters tend to use their reflector for other purposes in general (I'm looking at you, Fox). If reflect-shielding were removed, the metagame would barely be affected, since, like I said earlier, the timing is so hard that no one relies on it in the heat of battle.

 

[mimgrim]

*cracks fingers

I am gonna let muster and mimgrim deal with this one.

Sorry but I ain't touching D-idara with a 10 foot pole. He is an idiot who will never listen to reason and every other post of his is a diss to the competitive community, which is super ironic considering Smashboards is a competitive website for Smash. I've been very tempted to just put him on ignore.

He isn't worth my time to reply to.

 

[Muster]

*cracks fingers

I am gonna let muster and mimgrim deal with this one.

He just says things to make people mad.
Not even worth arguing with.

 

[Big-Cat]

It is an issue, but doesn't necessarily break the game. In this case, where Falco excels at approaching/ruining other's approach, he suffers from horrible recovery. It's part of his character. Most characters in Smash (with the obvious exception of MK) work this way, and for Smash 4, it seems like Sakurai, from his statements, is going to keep it this way, if not make it even better in terms of balance.

I can see what you mean about reflect-shielding though. It only makes sense that only a select few characters make use of a reflector move. I find it funny that those characters tend to use their reflector for other purposes in general (I'm looking at you, Fox). If reflect-shielding were removed, the metagame would barely be affected, since, like I said earlier, the timing is so hard that no one relies on it in the heat of battle.

You're theory crafting about what would happen. Would the removal of the shield reflectors break the game? No, but it would present a glaring issue with balance. Alternatively, something like increasing startup on the laser could be something to balance Falco out.

And while you should have strengths and weaknesses in mind, it doesn't always turn out like you expected. Zelda/Sheik is a prime example.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Yeah, because you're a casual if you don't play with no items, Fox only, Final Destination, right? I'm FAR from a casual gamer and I hate competitive Smash because it tries to twist the game into something it isn't.

How exactly is the competitive Smash scene ruining the way you play?

That's one of the things that's so great about Melee. If you want to simply sit down with your buds and goof around then it's a damn good party game. If you want to take your skill to the next level, learn the ins and outs of the game, and become competitive, then it's a DAMN good competitive game.

Brawl could have been the same if Sakurai didn't purposefully nerf nearly all of the aspects that made high level competitive play so compelling. Tripping, the new air dodge mechanic, slow/floaty physics, magnetic ledges, and lack of hit-stun were all blatant slaps in the face to competitive players.

Here's to hoping Smash 4 is able to find a good balance between the two.

 

[Empyrean]

You're theory crafting about what would happen. Would the removal of the shield reflectors break the game? No, but it would present a glaring issue with balance. Alternatively, something like increasing startup on the laser could be something to balance Falco out.

And while you should have strengths and weaknesses in mind, it doesn't always turn out like you expected. Zelda/Sheik is a prime example.

Does Brawl have reflect-shielding? I can't seem to remember. I know that in Melee/P:M, reflect-shielding helps shift the momentum from one player to the other if the defending one capitalizes on the hitstun Falco would get from his own laser. If you just powershield or sidestep the laser, then close-range combat ensues. It is by no means a necessary mechanic you must absolutely learn to play the Falco matchup or any other projectile-using character. I don't see how it would present a glaring issue if it were removed.

As for your second point, I know that it will not work out perfectly, since such a balance would be impossibly hard to achieve. But as long as something like MK doesn't happen again, where the character doesn't have a single significant weakness, then it should be fine.

 

[pitthekit]

Does Brawl have reflect-shielding? I can't seem to remember. I know that in Melee/P:M, reflect-shielding helps shift the momentum from one player to the other if the defending one capitalizes on the hitstun Falco would get from his own laser. If you just powershield or sidestep the laser, then close-range combat ensues. It is by no means a necessary mechanic you must absolutely learn to play the Falco matchup or any other projectile-using character. I don't see how it would present a glaring issue if it were removed.

As for your second point, I know that it will not work out perfectly, since such a balance would be impossibly hard to achieve. But as long as something like MK doesn't happen again, where the character doesn't have a single significant weakness, then it should be fine.

Mk flaws were short ranged aerials(too bad they were super godly fast) poor aerial mobility horizontally. And each attack did low damage. Too bad he is very fast and has godly oos options and can shut down any characters options. Not the mention his recovery is godlike.