The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[Reznor]

Yeah, because you're a casual if you don't play with no items, Fox only, Final Destination, right? I'm FAR from a casual gamer and I hate competitive Smash because it tries to twist the game into something it isn't.

it's not really twisting the game Smash allows you to take off items and limit the stages
although Project M is twisting the game

 

[UltimateWario]

although Project M is twisting the game

Eh, not really. Project M is very much its own game (albeit built on the groundwork of Brawl and combining the best of both it and Melee), which is built more toward the competitive aspect. It certainly still caters to casual players. I wouldn't call myself a competitive player by any stretch of the term and I still find it fun as hell.

 

[mimgrim]

Does Brawl have reflect-shielding? I can't seem to remember.

Where Melee as Perfect Shielding, Brawl has Power Shielding. In Brawl if you Power Shield a projectile, like Falco's laser, one of 2 things will happen with will either be angled upwards to where it doesn't pose a threat to the person who shot the projectile or it will simply disappear.

Eh, not really. Project M is very much its own game (albeit built on the groundwork of Brawl and combining the best of both it and Melee), which is built more toward the competitive aspect. It certainly still caters to casual players. I wouldn't call myself a competitive player by any stretch of the term and I still find it fun as hell.

Given the smiley face at the end of that sentence, I think he was joking.

 

[UltimateWario]

Given the smiley face at the end of that sentence, I think he was joking.

Yeah, I wasn't scolding him or anything, I was pretty much just posting to satisfy my own OCD.

 

[pitthekit]

Yeah, I wasn't scolding him or anything, I was pretty much just posting to satisfy my own OCD.

Gotta get dat message count up boi.

 

[Empyrean]

Where Melee as Perfect Shielding, Brawl has Power Shielding. In Brawl if you Power Shield a projectile, like Falco's laser, one of 2 things will happen with will either be angled upwards to where it doesn't pose a threat to the person who shot the projectile or it will simply disappear.



Given the smiley face at the end of that sentence, I think he was joking.

Thank you for the clarifications. I haven't played Brawl in a while, so I've forgotten all these details.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah, because you're a casual if you don't play with no items, Fox only, Final Destination, right? I'm FAR from a casual gamer and I hate competitive Smash because it tries to twist the game into something it isn't.

I really don't think the competitive people hate the casuals though, and I don't really see what your point is seeing as no one here was being aggressive towards casuals.

 

[Jaedrik]

I don't trust anything [Sakurai] says. . .

Oh ye of little faith.
I declare here this day that Smash 4 will be more competitive than Brawl. Of this I am absolutely certain, with the assurance of Sakurai.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I really don't think the competitive people hate the casuals though, and I don't really see what your point seeing as no one here was being aggressive towards casuals.

Ironically, it's more so the other way around.

These supposed casuals (aka people trying too hard) trying to downplay that all competitive players are jocks who hate fun and will slaughter anyone that has fun by ironically not having fun.

(Seriously, how the hell can people honestly have fun on stages like Summit and Mario Bros.?)

 

[UltimateWario]

(Seriously, how the hell can people honestly have fun on stages like Summit and Mario Bros.?)

There's a difference between a fun casual stage and absolute unplayable garbage, to be fair.

Summit's not actually so bad. I'd replace that one with 75m or Rumble Falls.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

75m and Rumble Falls are absolute garbage.

But.

I really like playing on Mario Bros. and all those other janky stages with like, items on high in a 4 way FFA, all random.

I usually yell and just be an idiot when I do this, and it's a nice change of pace from playing on battlefield or smashville every game.

edit: Mario bros. let's me practice my teching too

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

If you are on a competitive smash forum discussing competitive smash, you aren't a casual player. If you are on said smash forum and you are deliberately hating on technical skill and the players who accel in them, you aren't a casual player; you suck, and you're bitter.

 

[Empyrean]

The only unplayable stages for me are Hanenbow and Flat Zone. Devs were drunk as hell when making those. I can tolerate any other stage.

 

[pitthekit]

The only unplayable stages for me are Hanenbow and Flat Zone. Devs were drunk as hell when making those. I can tolerate any other stage.

Are u kidding hanenbow is my go to trolling stage against wifi mks

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I love Delfino, Mario Kart, Caste Seige, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's, Pokemon Stadium 2, Port Town (The Music's so good).

 

[Muster]

I love all F-zero stages and Mother stages, even though none of them are tournament legal at the moment. Big Blue is utter chaos, and what i think is the essence of the party game that Sakurai has fused with a fighting game.

 

[Empyrean]

Halberd is my favorite stage from any Smash Bros period. Unfortunately, my friends can't keep up "because the ship is too damn distracting". I also love PTAD's great assortment of music. I wish more stages had a broader musical variety.

 

[mimgrim]

Am I the only person who likes playing on 75M when not playing competitively? lol

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Am I the only person who likes playing on 75M when not playing competitively? lol

Yes. The stage is poorly designed from a gameplay and visual perspective. It doesn't help that the tracks on it are also awful, so it's not even nice to listen to.

The camera is positioned weirdly, honestly it's a nice throwback to old Donkey Kong, but it's just so much of a hassle to play on. :/

 

[mimgrim]

Yes. The stage is poorly designed from a gameplay and visual perspective. It doesn't help that the tracks on it are also awful, so it's not even nice to listen to.

The camera is positioned weirdly, honestly it's a nice throwback to old Donkey Kong, but it's just so much of a hassle to play on. :/

I never saw any problem with it when just having fun for the sake of having fun. lol

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I never saw any problem with it when just having fun for the sake of having fun. lol

Well, I don't enjoy it and I enjoy just about anything. =P

 

[Empyrean]

I never saw any problem with it when just having fun for the sake of having fun. lol

Dude you can barely stand anywhere! To each their own I guess.

 

[mimgrim]

Dude you can barely stand anywhere! To each their own I guess.

That's what made it so fun. Have to constantly keep moving and keep an eye on the hazards.

 

[JediLink]

Are there any other Pokefloats lovers out there? There are no hazards, but you're forced to keep moving while still fighting with your opponent and taking maximum advantage of the current terrain. It keeps things interesting and always different.

 

[Empyrean]

Are there any other Pokefloats lovers out there? There are no hazards, but you're forced to keep moving while still fighting with your opponent and taking maximum advantage of the current terrain. It keeps things interesting and always different.

I don't love it, but I find it enjoyable. I find it most fun for 4-people ffa's. There's hardly any combat going on .

 

[UltimateWario]

I don't get all the PokeFloats love, honestly.

But I also don't get all the Melee love in general (I understand why people like it, just not why people treat it as an untoppable masterpiece), so I'm not really a good judge of that sort of thing.

 

[josh bones]

I loved warioware cause it had the best song in the game, summit because of the fish, and green greens because music.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Hyrule Temple.

/thread

 

[LancerStaff]

Oh so the competitive scene should just die and go away, is that it?

Of course not! But it's Sakurai's game. He can do whatever he wants with it. I'm not some troll who signed up here to, uh, troll, I'm here to learn how to play and to debate.

But it isn't near as impactful as a lot of people here will have you think. For instance, Ken didn't know how to wavedash shortly after its discovery, but was crushing everyone at tournaments. Many of his opponents were using the technique effectively.

That leads me to believe they weren't using it to it's fullest or the characters/players weren't good against Marth/Ken.

What is this I don't even. Do you really expect people on Smashboards (i.e. a forum for competitive Smash players) to not care about competitive Smash?

Sakurai's goal was to make a fighting game that was more accessible to people outside of the genre, and he succeeded. Melee is extremely simple to learn. Just watch this one minute video, and you already know everything you need to compete with your friends.

However, we all know that that's not even close to everything Melee offered. All well as the basics in the video, there were also other simple techniques like short-hopping, fast falling, pummeling and air dodging, intermediate techniques like tether recoveries, power shielding and wall jumping, and even advanced techniques like crouch cancelling and DI, all of which were deliberately programmed into the game. Although you could get by with the basics, if you really enjoyed the game and wanted to get better at it, there was so much more to learn and discover.

Melee was made to cater to everybody. It was easy to explain the controls to non-gamers so that they could pick Pikachu and start havng fun, but hardcore gamers could compete against their friends and feel the satisfaction of learning and improving. High level competitive play is just the natural end result of this.

When you have a competitive game that caters only to casuals, it can quickly become boring once you realise that you've already figured everything out. See: Tic-tac-toe.

Er, I worded it too harshly. I just ment deep metagames weren't supposed to come from SSB. And I ment to say 'Why complain about Wavedashing being removed when it wasn't supposed to exist?' Take Kid Icarus: Uprising for instance. There's a 'technique' that lets you temporarily transfer a weapon's custom stats to another. A monkey could do it, and and even I agree it's effects on the metagame were completely positive. But you wouldn't hear a word from me when it's missing from KI:U 2.

(Er, I can't be reported over having a post be too long or something, right? XD)

 

[Empyrean]

Of course not! But it's Sakurai's game. He can do whatever he wants with it. I'm not some troll who signed up here to, uh, troll, I'm here to learn how to play and to debate.

After people buy the game, they can do whatever they want with, whether it's goofing around with items or creating a rich and diverse metagame. Sakurai has no say on whether his game should be played competitively, all he can do is include/remove/modify aspects and mechanics that will enhance or deteriorate competitive play.

And yes, you are allowed to make long posts.

 

[Morbi]

You really answered your own question, if Sakurai doesn't necessarily allude to it as a fighter, he clearly doesn't intend to treat it like your average fighter. That being said, I do agree with your sentiment. If you don't use the tech, fine. It should still be there for those who are interested in learning. Nothing detrimental comes from increasing the depth of your title. Most casuals probably don't even know that the advanced tech even exists, the casuals that do... can go practice or decide that they aren't interested. You always have a choice.

 

[D-idara]

Yes. The stage is poorly designed from a gameplay and visual perspective. It doesn't help that the tracks on it are also awful, so it's not even nice to listen to.

The camera is positioned weirdly, honestly it's a nice throwback to old Donkey Kong, but it's just so much of a hassle to play on. :/

Are you serious? The DK arcade medley/remix is amazing. Although I'll admit that I don't like 75m.

And Morbid, what about those players that want to access the competitive scene without having to learn unnatural commands?

 

[JediLink]

Er, I worded it too harshly. I just ment deep metagames weren't supposed to come from SSB. And I ment to say 'Why complain about Wavedashing being removed when it wasn't supposed to exist?' Take Kid Icarus: Uprising for instance. There's a 'technique' that lets you temporarily transfer a weapon's custom stats to another. A monkey could do it, and and even I agree it's effects on the metagame were completely positive. But you wouldn't hear a word from me when it's missing from KI:U 2.

Wavedashing was not "fixed" in Brawl, because it was never even a glitch in the first place. The only reason why you can't wavedash in Brawl is because the mechanic required to execute it, the air dodge, is fundamentally different. If Brawl had Melee-style air dodges, then it more than likely would have still had wavedashing too.

EDIT: That said, though, I have no issue with Smash 4 being a different game from Melee. Although Melee will probably always be the pinnacle of the series (as far as the official games go anyway), and I will never complain about games being more like Melee, you don't need to be exactly like Melee to be a good Smash game. See: Smash 64.

 

[Morbi]

Are you serious? The DK arcade medley/remix is amazing. Although I'll admit that I don't like 75m.

And Morbid, what about those players that want to access the competitive scene without having to learn unnatural commands?

I already stated what to do with them in my post... nothing. Either they dedicate time to learning the fundamental advanced techniques, or they decide that they aren't entirely interested. Guess what? I am actually one of those casuals; however, I don't want to spend the time to learn the tech. That is on me, that isn't on the developer, it isn't on the competitive scene, it isn't on the game, it is on me. I would actually be a competitive player in Melee if I learned the tech, but I never bothered as it didn't pertain to my interests. Does it suck? Kind of, but it isn't anything that I can't deal with.

If the day ever comes when I want to commit to the game even further, I will. Presently, I will just enjoy watching and discussing competitive Smash.

 

[Reznor]

Wavedashing was not "fixed" in Brawl, because it was never even a glitch in the first place. The only reason why you can't wavedash in Brawl is because the mechanic required to execute it, the air dodge, is fundamentally different. If Brawl had Melee-style air dodges, then it more than likely would have still had wavedashing too.

Wavedashing wasn't a glitch it was people manipulating the game mechanics in a way Sakurai disliked
Brawl's airdodge was changed so that there would be no more Wavedashing so some people consider it a glitch (I don't though)

 

[LancerStaff]

Wavedashing was not "fixed" in Brawl, because it was never even a glitch in the first place. The only reason why you can't wavedash in Brawl is because the mechanic required to execute it, the air dodge, is fundamentally different. If Brawl had Melee-style air dodges, then it more than likely would have still had wavedashing too.

EDIT: That said, though, I have no issue with Smash 4 being a different game from Melee. Although Melee will probably always be the pinnacle of the series (as far as the official games go anyway), and I will never complain about games being more like Melee, you don't need to be exactly like Melee to be a good Smash game. See: Smash 64.

To quote the user 'chain-ace':
Go to page 62 of your new May issue of Nintendo Power and read the second paragraph, which says...

Nintendo Power: This is one that a lot of hardcore Smash Bros. fans have long wondered about. Was the ablility to "Wavedash" in Melee intentional or a glitch?

Sakurai: Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period. With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn't a matter of, "OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?"
We really just wanted this game, again, to appeal to and be played by gamers of all different levels. We felt that there was a growing gap between beginners and advanced players, and taking that out helps to level the playing field. It wasn't a big priority or anything, but when we were building the game around the idea of making it fair for everybody, it just made sense to take it out. And it also goes back to wanting to make something different from Melee and giving players the opportunity to find new things to enjoy.

Not sure what NP issue it was, but this completely proves my case: That he wishes to shrink the gap between 'casual' and 'competitive' players.

 

[JediLink]

Not sure what NP issue it was, but this completely proves my case: That he wishes to shrink the gap between 'casual' and 'competitive' players.

Yeah, and then we got Brawl, and it was the worst Smash game ever. Your point?

From what we've heard, though, SSB4 is going to be totally different and his mentality when developing it is totally different. It's almost as if he's learning from a mistake or something.

 

[LancerStaff]

The mistake was not balancing the characters enough. Remember the 'Melee was too hard' article? That is very recent, and the lines I pointed out still show he wants to shrink the gap. Unless you can explain why he claimed 'Melee was too hard'.

 

[Jaedrik]

That is very recent, and the lines I pointed out still show he wants to shrink the gap.

By making wavedashing easier, yes, brilliant idea, Sakurai!

 

[Reznor]

The mistake was not balancing the characters enough. Remember the 'Melee was too hard' article? That is very recent, and the lines I pointed out still show he wants to shrink the gap. Unless you can explain why he claimed 'Melee was too hard'.

complaining about Melee being too hard sounds like some casual whos first video game was Halo or Tony Hawk
I haven't read it yet so i'm making assumptions could you post a link?