The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[LancerStaff]

By making wavedashing easier, yes, brilliant idea, Sakurai!

Or outright removing it. Whatever works.

complaining about Melee being too hard sounds like some casual whos first video game was Halo or Tony Hawk
I haven't read it yet so i'm making assumptions could you post a link?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult?
Sorry, link didn't get posted.

 

[Niko Mar]

Yeah, and then we got Brawl, and it was the worst Smash game ever. Your point?

Do you really have to use that terminology? It's not indefinitely the "worst smash game ever." It is undoubtedly an amazing game, and completely opinionated on how it's ranked among the others. Many people would say it's their favorite in the series.

 

[Reznor]

Or outright removing it. Whatever works.



http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult?
Sorry, link didn't get posted.

I thought you were talking about some random guy not Sakurai
ya Sakurai is all about easy games

 

[The Real Gamer]

If you are on a competitive smash forum discussing competitive smash, you aren't a casual player. If you are on said smash forum and you are deliberately hating on technical skill and the players who accel in them, you aren't a casual player; you suck, and you're bitter.

Best post in the entire thread.

The honest truth is that there's a ton of people on this forum that have probably tried to become technically proficient at Melee at some point and simply gave up because it was "too hard" or required "too much effort."

 

[Aidebit]

You were saying?

Ew.

Kongo was banned for a reason in Melee Singles.

Mr. R, heck, Europe in general is awesome in Brawl, and really changes people's perceptions of the game. Agreed on that front.

Also, you keep bringing up those two videos and Armada v HBox at Apex 2012 whenever someone brings up Brawl v Melee. Two or three examples every time you face an argument won't cut it, especially when they're all dated.

Apparently, this was also on Page Three for a reason.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't feel like quoting people so I'm just gonna state something real quick.

IIrc, the E3 demo for Brawl had a similar form of Wavedashing that was done through other means then the air dodge, I forget what it was exactly but I think it was through attacks or something, but it was taken out once it was discovered by the people who played the demo because Sakurai and/or Nintendo didn't like it. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that Melee's airdodge doesn't have to be a requirement for Wavedashing and there are other ways it can be implemented, if Sakurai were willing to implement it again.

Personally as long as we get a few ATs that increase movement, that is universal and good for all character (the reason I don't care if Wavedashing returns since I play Peach in Melee who has a sucky as hell Wavedash) I will probably be content.

 

[LancerStaff]

Then don't even look at SSB4 again. No chance that Sakuraiwill put/leave in such a technique.

 

[mimgrim]

Then don't even look at SSB4 again. No chance that Sakuraiwill put/leave in such a technique.

He doesn't have to necessarily put it in on purpose, it just has to be found by the community.

 

[UltimateWario]

Can I say, I completely agree with what the OP is trying to say? Making Tech much more intuitive, and even simpler, would, in fact, enrich the competitive game by making it much less intimidating that it is, and thus, allowing it to grow. It's completely silly when people demand that things be made difficult or outright awkward simply because "That's how I had to learn it, everyone else should, too!".

Making Wavedashing a real part of the game rather than a glitch, along with other tech, would really be an improvement.

Then don't even look at SSB4 again. No chance that Sakuraiwill put/leave in such a technique.

Everyone seems to forget that, believe it or not, Sakurai did make their beloved Melee. It is, in fact, the same person who gave them their delicious wavedashing and whatnot.

 

[UltimateWario]

****, double post.

 

[mimgrim]

Making Wavedashing a real part of the game rather than a glitch, along with other tech, would really be an improvement.

Minor thing here, but Wavedash really isn't a glitch. The mechanic wasn't put in on purpose, but Sakurai stated that he knew about it before the game released and didn't bother to take it out. So it can't really be classified as a glitch and is more like a corner case.

 

[UltimateWario]

Minor thing here, but Wavedash really isn't a glitch. The mechanic wasn't put in on purpose, but Sakurai stated that he knew about it before the game released and didn't bother to take it out. So it can't really be classified as a glitch and is more like a corner case.

I simply meant that it wasn't programmed in on purpose. I get what you're saying, though.

 

[DraginHikari]

Wavedashing is more of just a physics reaction to the momentum created by the air dodge, more a side effect then an actual programming glitch, I suppose they could have removed it by modifying the momentum when you land with an air dodge but given that they did, but they decided to leave it as is. Glitches generally have negative associations with them which is why it often terminology that is used by those opposed to it's use often time or that the difference is not understood.

 

[LancerStaff]

Who's to say Nintendo wouldn't patch the glitch? But even then, since this is starting off of the Brawl engine, the glitch would probably have to already exist in Brawl. We'd of found it by now.

 

[mimgrim]

Who's to say Nintendo wouldn't patch the glitch? But even then, since this is starting off of the Brawl engine, the glitch would probably have to already exist in Brawl. We'd of found it by now.

Brawl started off of the Melee engine, just so you know.

 

[smashmachine]

Do you really have to use that terminology? It's not indefinitely the "worst smash game ever." It is undoubtedly an amazing game, and completely opinionated on how it's ranked among the others. Many people would say it's their favorite in the series.

it is quite obvious that the people who do like Brawl the most like it for its characters, stages, and other content, and not its gameplay, and this will be incredibly obvious once SSB4 comes out and this Brawl fanbase evaporates while the Melee one will (probably) stay, unless it happens to exceed people's expectations

 

[mimgrim]

it is quite obvious that the people who do like Brawl the most like it for its characters, stages, and other content, and not its gameplay, and this will be incredibly obvious once SSB4 comes out and this Brawl fanbase evaporates while the Melee one will (probably) stay, unless it happens to exceed people's expectations

That's not quite a fair assumption, you know.

I like both Melee and Brawl equally and the most important part to a Smash game for me is the gameplay, which means I like the gameplay for both equally.

 

[D-idara]

Yeah, and then we got Brawl, and it was the worst Smash game ever. Your point?

From what we've heard, though, SSB4 is going to be totally different and his mentality when developing it is totally different. It's almost as if he's learning from a mistake or something.

How about no? Brawl was amazing.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

it is quite obvious that the people who do like Brawl the most like it for its characters, stages, and other content, and not its gameplay, and this will be incredibly obvious once SSB4 comes out and this Brawl fanbase evaporates while the Melee one will (probably) stay, unless it happens to exceed people's expectations

Yeah, I have no doubt that the Brawl scene will be nonexistent after Smash 4 is released. Content is its claim to fame, and the sequel will overshadow it in this respect.

 

[SmashChu]

The argument that Brawl is a much more intelligent game is a common misconception. The only thing about Brawl is that it's defensiveness is much more noticeable.

Playing defensively in Melee used a deeper set of mechanics such as crouch canceling, wave dash out of shield, dash dancing, shield cross ups and wave landing for character positioning. Since Melee actually rewards you for being offensive you can reliably space aerials and retreat or cross them up and use your movement options to reposition yourself.

The Japanese are doing well because they are very competitive and are playing the game in the most optimum fashion. Brawl does not reward you for being offensive and perfect shielding is far too easy. Projectile based characters are dominant since there are no reflective shields and hitstun can be canceled. The lack of aerial momentum also minimizes most aerial approaches as well. Every offensive action is essentially a result of capitalizing a mistake rather than making an opening for yourself.

Melee has everything that Brawl has and then some, it's just faster.

Let's step back a minute. My original point was that not ever move should be safe. If you throw out a bad attack, you'll get punished. That doesn't happen in Melee because you can make a lot of the character's moves safe. There is more to it as players attack and move back. However, a lot of hits were confirmed in the video either though one player hitting first or abusing times when the player has no defensive option (being in the air, for one). Brawl is not played that way, well, at least not by the Japanese. Check this video to see what I mean. Neitono win though good spacing and zoning. In fact, the commentators even mention this fact. Brawl's defensive options don't make it "campy." It makes it so you can just jump in and not be punished for it. In the same match, Neitono was able to grab ADHD when he jumped in. You'll see a lot of Americans trade in Brawl, and by that I mean, one will attack, another will attack, and so on, Players leave themselves open to attack, and this is probably because of Melee. Melee's defense was your offense and you can see it in the match. Both players just try to out aggression the other. This is also why half the cast is useless in Melee where in Brawl there is a bit more variety. This is because characters aren't good just because they are aggressive. You can see this in Street Fighter. You just don't rush in and #YOLO. You pick your moves. So you need to have good control and reads. You can be aggressive, but if your not careful, you can be punished. In Melee, you are going to be aggressive no matter what. ]

Again, the point is that you should not be able to make every move safe. In Street Fighter, you can be aggressive, but there are unsafe attacks and you will be punished for this. Brawl works in the same way. It's not that Brawl does not reward you for being aggressive. If that was the case, Meta-Knight, a character who is all twitch and rush, would not be the top character. Brawl is more in line with other fighting games as you have some defensive options. As such, you can be rewarded for defense. So it's not that offense is removed, but that defense can be just as rewarding. Zoning and spacing take presidence over a relentless offense that you see in Melee. The community only sees thing though the looking glass of Melee. If Melee is the standard, then Brawl is slow as molasses and is too campy, and punishes aggression. Of course, Street Fighter would be the same way under this looking glass. So it's an issue of context. This is also why we have a thread like this to begin with. If Melee is the looking glass, then wavedashing and L-canceling are not strange techniques that drastically change the game's focus but the norm.

 

[LancerStaff]

Brawl started off of the Melee engine, just so you know.

Yeah. What made you think I didn't know that? Some of Brawl's biggest changes were control changes. The DACUS was probably made possible by the same thing that let us dash-Usmash, and glide tossing could of came from the same thing that disabled rolling with C.

Since there isn't another three controllers to make the game work for and there's not much to improve from Brawl's controls, we won't get any new non-specific techniques.

 

[Renji64]

How about no? Brawl was amazing.

amazingly bad and boring.

 

[LancerStaff]

amazingly bad and boring.

Yeah, because you're a casual if you don't play with no items, Fox only, Final Destination, right? I'm FAR from a casual gamer and I hate competitive Smash because it tries to twist the game into something it isn't.

You and D-idara are exactly the same except in one regard: Your stances on competitive play. Take that as you will, you two.

 

[josh bones]

[

amazingly bad and boring.

To you.

 

[pitthekit]

You and D-idara are exactly the same except in one regard: Your stances on competitive play. Take that as you will, you two.

Plot twist renji64 is D-idara. Fight club ending wooo
#mind blown

I wonder if sakurai will make smash 4 reward aggression and also equally award defence... Or reward a variety play style( use everything at your disposal) this could make the brawl and melee lovers happy... Is this even possible?

FYI Samus in melee is like one of the most defensive characters.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i think that the problem newer people have with advanced techs, is that they simply only exist in higher levels of play and nowhere else. Did the tutorial ever teach us those techs? Do Lv 9 CPU use them?

They are used to play the game like that, see.



About Wavedashing: I think that there is two problems with Wavedashing

1- Input being nonsensical, which was already discussed at length. I think the best way to re-map wavedashing would be something done solely with the analog stick, maybe a simple QCM like the Shoryuken or the Hadouken motions

I just saw a video on how Wavedashing is done on MvC3, and i think it could be reasonably applied to smash too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNHyf1D0hAo

2- It's different for everybody in a way that is not very balanced.

It adds to various things of a character's ground game, mobility being one of them. A few characters have long wavedashes, like Luigi and the Ice Climbers... and few have wavedashes that barely move then any distance, like Peach's and Jiggy's & characters were not built with Wavedashing in mind, nor any of the derivated techs from it (like Wavelanding), and their physics, their attributes, were not built with that in mind.

The end result is that each character benefits from it differently. If Wavedashing were to return, it needed to be specifically built for each character, unless it retruns in the exact same shape (meaning the result comes form the character's physics). I really doubt that if i was implemented intentionally a lot of thigns would have to be considered when deciding how much of a boost they give to each character.


It's a fine mechanic and i'd love it to return, but if those issues were fixed, even better!



Now, about L-canceling...

It has 1 problem, but first... some people mentioned the input doesn't make sense. What input would make sense? Since the tech is "L" Canceling, i think this is the best button, no? But the shield button can be a good way to L cancel if you listen to my idea... about L-canceling's problem.


1- It's a mere extension. No risk involved.

L-canceling is just an extension of aerials. No reason NOT to do it. So a risk is in order. I Think the risk that can be applied is... Detracting a bit of your shield per L-cancel. Why? Because of two reasons:

*It's done with the Shield button, so affecting Shields in some way would be the only reasonable way to make the input make sense.
*L-Canceling is a tech that can be used both offensively and defensively, but it's primarly a offensive tech. The main use of L-canceling is to help connect attacks into each other, no? So in order to improve your offense, you detract from defense.

The problem would be deciding how much Shield damage an L-cancel would deal.




It's highly unlikely, but if a few months after the game's release an update meant to fix bugs also added a level 10 cpu that used the advanced techs and unlocked a in-game tutorial for them... i guess casuals wold accept it more, maybe

 

[MasterofMonster]

I was gonna comment and such here, but I can quickly see enough "Brawl sucks cuz' it's not Melee+!" things, so I will just stay out of it. Enough hate in the gaming Community as it is. :/

I will say, though, (to not make this comment completely un-needed), that I never did those 'wavedash' things and whatnot. And I do not care about it if it'd return. I prefer Brawl, but the new game seems a Little faster, and that's good in a way, so I have no complains.

 

[mimgrim]

Yeah. What made you think I didn't know that? Some of Brawl's biggest changes were control changes. The DACUS was probably made possible by the same thing that let us dash-Usmash, and glide tossing could of came from the same thing that disabled rolling with C.

Since there isn't another three controllers to make the game work for and there's not much to improve from Brawl's controls, we won't get any new non-specific techniques.

You're jumping to some quick presumptions there.

Brawl started out on the Melee engine, and look how much the engine changed there. Just because it is starting off of the Brawl engine doesn't mean that it is going to have the same engine, Melee to Brawl is proof of that.

i think that the problem newer people have with advanced techs, is that they simply only exist in higher levels of play and nowhere else. Did the tutorial ever teach us those techs? Do Lv 9 CPU use them?

The ones on here are now on smashboards, that means all they have to do is look for them on this site or google them. It's not that hard to find out about all the ATs, they just have to be willing to put work into learning them. Other people who don't get on competitive Smash websites have no qaulms or cares about ATs. The people that are complaining about ATs on a competitive website, or any gaming website for that matter, cannot be filed under the "casual" term. They probably just want the game made easier for them because they can't handle it or they suck.

About Wavedashing: I think that there is two problems with Wavedashing

1- Input being nonsensical, which was already discussed at length. I think the best way to re-map wavedashing would be something done solely with the analog stick, maybe a simple QCM like the Shoryuken or the Hadouken motions

This problem doesn't make sense to me. This is smash, since when is anything in it made of sense. Seeming like a odd way to be implemented should not be a valid argument.

2- It's different for everybody in a way that is not very balanced.

It adds to various things of a character's ground game, mobility being one of them. A few characters have long wavedashes, like Luigi and the Ice Climbers... and few have wavedashes that barely move then any distance, like Peach's and Jiggy's & characters were not built with Wavedashing in mind, nor any of the derivated techs from it (like Wavelanding), and their physics, their attributes, were not built with that in mind.

While I agree characters like Peach who barely even have a Wavdash need a better one, a lot of it has to do with traction. It can be argued that where Luigi and ICs have great Wavedashes, they have horrible Dash Dances. So it kinda evens out to an extent in that regard, slightly anyway.

 

[Empyrean]

*It's done with the Shield button, so affecting Shields in some way would be the only reasonable way to make the input make sense.
*L-Canceling is a tech that can be used both offensively and defensively, but it's primarly a offensive tech. The main use of L-canceling is to help connect attacks into each other, no? So in order to improve your offense, you detract from defense.

The problem would be deciding how much Shield damage an L-cancel would deal.

That's actually a good idea if you ask me, it also makes alot of sense. Characters like Fox or Falcon would think twice before nairplaning, since, were they to miss the last one, they would have more trouble defending and be more prone to a shield poke.

That being said, I heavily doubt that L-cancelling will return. Although there still is a small possibility, since the tech has been present in 2/3 of the series.

 

[D-idara]

You and D-idara are exactly the same except in one regard: Your stances on competitive play. Take that as you will, you two.

Extremist on my own side and I really despise the other side?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Are you serious? The DK arcade medley/remix is amazing. Although I'll admit that I don't like 75m.

And Morbid, what about those players that want to access the competitive scene without having to learn unnatural commands?

Now that's a very interesting question.

In competitive smash (or any competitive fighter for that matter) it is assumed that players who are competing by logic at least understand the minimal amount of technical aspects to the games engine if not all of it.

The way I see it, an there are no unnatural movements in a fighting game, rather, it is a specified use of every increment of knowledge you have obtained in your pursuit of perfecting your play style. Tech skill is a given at any level of competition that varies between players. Take for instance a Shoryuken in Street Fighter, there will be players who feel that they must execute the full series of inputs (Forward, Down, Down/Forward + Punch). Even though you can use them relatively easily, but the other player uses them more effectively because he understands how to implement inputs into his movements and other attacks by buffering. He could do a crouching punch to convince you that you are open and in that haste, you decide to jump into him for a punish. However, the reality he was holding down and forward, and he can input down and down /forward during his attack, then, by the time it ends press punch, allowing the player to successfully execute an anti- air shoryuken despite the fact that he didn't appear (keyword) to input the necessary motions.

This was possible because he used his base knowledge of the game, beit unnatural to the eye or not in the appropriate situation. The same could be said for Kara specials in street fighter, which is the use of an attack to give your character momentum, or an otherwise unexpected movement. In Street Fighter III: Third Strike, the Character Makoto has a special grab called the Karakusa that has a limited range, but is vital to her combo attacks. The range of this move can be extended by pressing light kick, and quickly during the attack, put in the necessary inputs for the grab and she will step forward with that grab, effectively doubling the range. The player is able to do this because he knows and physically sees that the initial kick moves the character forward, and in street fighter normal attacks can be canceled with special attacks, and additionally that you can input commands during a move. The result is a cumulative effort that was possible due the knowledge that said player periodically accumulated through playing and applying it when necessary. Even in Brawl you have people who can power shield, but the player who can power shield is not going to be as successful as the player who understands his options after said shield.

Tech skill, or in this case, unnatural commands are just applying what you know and when to apply it in as fast an expeditious way possible. It can be argued that understanding when to apply your knowledge is much more important than learning it arbitrarily, as it wouldn't matter if you knew how to wavedash; if you wavedash into my Falcon Punch it won't do you any good. Understanding how you can apply technical skill in a situation is a critical element to playing.

Early in my Melee career I believed the same thing most skeptical entry level players though: "Why do I need to learn this?", "What use are these techniques is I have to constantly think about doing them?", "These techs are dumb and pointless". Sure, it took a small deal of time to actually apply them in battle properly, but gradually it became clear, and I no longer had to think about using them; they became muscle memory. However, I still believed that I could just play aggressive an technical like Silent Wolf, but I got destroyed by top players despite my tech skill. Going to OC3 playing top players in my pool like Bone, PC Chris, Taj , Knives was an incredible experience, and I would have made it by last stock on my last game, both of us being at above 150% vs Knives. Later on I played with players like Ken and learned so much about mind games and understanding the flow of the game; through understanding the game and your opponent, whatever amount of knowledge or technical skill you posses atriculates to the next, so if you understand a mindgame, you understand how to apply the tech skill , if you understand how to apply the tech skill it becomes muscle memory, and so on.

Even after my loss I still have very offensive tendencies, perhaps because I do not care about winning as I do having fun, and I do die quit frequently and in anticlimactic fashion sometimes, but when I get a solid hit on the opponent odds are I'm taking a stock, and once I do it goes downhill since I never emphasized on defense. Over time I realized that I can't just keep rushing in because I feel that the opponent is slower than me or my response time is superior, so I respected my opponents knowledge of my technical skill in the game and was able to find better openings. I changed the way I played slightly, but I still retained my punish game by capitalizing every offensive opportunity presented. This was due to me playing and refining my knowledge of the game and realizing that I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary, or even anything that I didn't do when I first started playing the game. The difference was in applying it and understanding how it would benefit me and my opponent the most and gradually working it into my playing.

While it isn't necessary to understand tech skill, it does benefit you; by understanding how to use these things you understand how the opponent may use it against you, regardless if you want to apply your knowledge or not. Everyone's style of play isn't the same. Become successful by applying your knowledge of the game instead of knowledge of the tech. Use everything to your advantage and encompass the technical aspects of the game and apply it when you see fit. In the end it all boils down to applying whatever you know that you can do quickly in a calculated fashion.

 

[JediLink]

Now that's a very interesting question.

Which apparently requires a very long answer.

 

[The Real Gamer]

The bottom line is that every competitive fighting game requires a certain amount of technical precision and a plethora of game knowledge to be good (even Brawl to an extent). Getting good requires dedication and time.

Plenty of people who complain about Melee/Project M's technical barriers could easily overcome them if they were actually willing to put the work in, but they're simply not. They'd rather have a game with a low skill gap so they don't have to work as hard to become decent at the game. IMO these people need to get off of Smashboards (aka a COMPETITIVE GAMING FORUM) and go play Mario Party or something...

 

[D-idara]

The bottom line is that every competitive fighting game requires a certain amount of technical precision and a plethora of game knowledge to be good (even Brawl to an extent). Getting good requires dedication and time.

Plenty of people who complain about Melee/Project M's technical barriers could easily overcome them if they were actually willing to put the work in, but they're simply not. They'd rather have a game with a low skill gap so they don't have to work as hard to become decent at the game. IMO these people need to get off of Smashboards (aka a COMPETITIVE GAMING FORUM) and go play Mario Party or something...

If we were actually willing, but we're not, we want a competitive game where skill is earned through progression.

fire, I don't think that works for me because I hate Street Fighter with the passion of a thousand burning suns. The argument comes "Why can't I just start getting good at the game already?" You shouldn't have to learn something just to start getting good. And to learn things like wavedash (Or how to Shoryuken, for that matter) takea days or even weeks just to get it right. Especially when you go in with a mindset like mine, all techs are unbelievably hard and their only purpose is to keep newer players from becoming good. How do you even do the Z motion of the dragon punch!?

 

[JediLink]

You shouldn't have to learn something just to start getting good.

 

[The Real Gamer]

My thoughts exactly.

 

[D-idara]

I'm gonna make an example of why I don't disagree with all kinds of technical skill, of course there needs to be some sort of input gap between good players and bad players, but the way Street Fighter and Melee do it is the wrong way to do it. Technical skill shouldn't be called a technical barrier, it should work more like a technical slope.

I'm gonna use Champion's Road from Super Mario 3D World as an example, that level is TOUGH, it challenges all the platforming skills you've learned up to that point and the level design forces you to learn some new tricks, but since the level's divided in segments, there's always a feeling of instant gratification when you achieve something, like you've thwarted a challenge. Fighting games with input barriers don't do that, because they throw a bunch of annoying techs at you all at once and expect you to learn them on your own right, without any feeling of gratification when you actually manage to do them. The bottom line, if you don't keep the players entertained, they're not going to keep playing anytime soon. When gratification comes after a long string of 'learning' and 'practicing', most people just don't want to suffer and struggle all the way through just so they can get beaten into a pulp by a "better" player.

Maybe if there some challenges in-game that required those advanced techniques, or maybe the game having little tutorial sections with thorough explanations of them and the way they should be used...then I'd be OK with advanced techs, but figuring out EVERYTHING on your own and then having to actually start getting good just isn't fun.

And JediLink, yes, learning should be extremely easy, getting good's the hard part.

 

[JediLink]

The bottom line, if you don't keep the players me entertained, they're I'm not going to keep playing anytime soon. When gratification comes after a long string of 'learning' and 'practicing', most people I just don't want to suffer and struggle all the way through just so I can get beaten into a pulp by a "better" player.

Fixed.

Regardless of what the game is (and this extends outside of fighting games as well), if you want to get competitive there's always going to be a lot of work and studying involved and there's no way around that. You've got to know the finer workings of all the mechanics, the frame data (just the important parts if you're a regular mortal, all of it if you're M2K), the current state of the metagame, tactics that other players have pioneered, and so on. Even if devs did explain their games better and have proper tutorials, you would still need to put in the work to learn everything. As the saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".

To get good at any fighting game, you've got to have the passion and the drive to do it. If you do have that, the first thing you would do is look online and find several comprehensive guides and tutorials already made by the community to start you off. If you don't have that, then, well, you probably were never going to get very far in the first place.

That said, though, most game devs are pretty ****ey at the "leading to water" part, which I agree is something that needs to be improved. Props to Skullgirls for actually having comprehensive tutorials explaining all the basics of the game, and then letting you practice it (which are more-or-less the in-game challenges you described). If that could become a standard then that would be swell. Mahvel and Street fighter have trials mode, which are sort of comparable but not nearly as exhaustive. Melee has its own unique spin on the concept in Target Test, which does in most cases teach you all about each character's moveset and Young Link's actually requires wall jumping to clear. (This is one of the many great things that Brawl unfortunately took a dump on.)

 

[Reznor]

I'm gonna use Champion's Road from Super Mario 3D World as an example, that level is TOUGH, it challenges all the platforming skills you've learned up to that point and the level design forces you to learn some new tricks, but since the level's divided in segments, there's always a feeling of instant gratification when you achieve something, like you've thwarted a challenge. Fighting games with input barriers don't do that, because they throw a bunch of annoying techs at you all at once and expect you to learn them on your own right, without any feeling of gratification when you actually manage to do them. The bottom line, if you don't keep the players entertained, they're not going to keep playing anytime soon. When gratification comes after a long string of 'learning' and 'practicing', most people just don't want to suffer and struggle all the way through just so they can get beaten into a pulp by a "better" player..

you just said instant gratification is good
this is whats wrong with videogames now days

 

[DraginHikari]

The bottom line is that every competitive fighting game requires a certain amount of technical precision and a plethora of game knowledge to be good (even Brawl to an extent). Getting good requires dedication and time.

Plenty of people who complain about Melee/Project M's technical barriers could easily overcome them if they were actually willing to put the work in, but they're simply not. They'd rather have a game with a low skill gap so they don't have to work as hard to become decent at the game. IMO these people need to get off of Smashboards (aka a COMPETITIVE GAMING FORUM) and go play Mario Party or something...

To be fair Smashboards influnce has grown beyond simply being a hub for the Competivtive scene of smash becoming a fairly large fan community of smash in general. As far as the Mario Party analogy, that's really a silly way to put it. There is a big gap between Smash Competitive and Mario Party in regards to what people want. It's not really an black and white answer.