The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[pitthekit]

...And the joke was lost.
Welp, back to hiding...

I got the joke. If simple words can kill the joke then??? Although if people read this thread chronologically your joke will not be lost until they see my post. Sorry.

Hehehe back to denial you go.

Interesting thought. Perhaps a system where if you get tossed around/combo'd enough in a certain frame of time you'll auto tech or something. Like the thing in TMNT smash up where if you get hit enough by certain things you can teleport by pressing up.

That would be cool, auto teching in hyrule temple would make you live forever hahaha.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

What'd you expect?

But you know, after thinking about it, I fully support teching. I love using a good ukemi to mix up my strategies.

I expect people to behave themselves but maybe I am expecting too much.....



This was more of a precaution since this sort of topic can start potential flame wars and arguments. Just keep things civil and don't let things get too heated.

 

[JediLink]

defeating another human opponent is as empty as victories get.

And we're done here. Defeating other people is the WHOLE POINT of playing competitively. If that's not what you want, then you've just got to accept that playing competitively is something that will probably never interest you.

If what you want is for the game to teach you how to play, provide you with a gradually increasing level of challenge, and reward you upon conquering each challenge, then what you want is a single-player game, and there are plenty of those out there.

 

[J1NG]

But you know, after thinking about it, I fully support teching. I love using a good ukemi to mix up my strategies.

I will say that I love the idea of being able to jump out of an ukemi. I remember the gameplay video of Sakurai fighting against that other guy, and that's what people thought they spotted in the video. I think a mechanic like that is a very healthy change as far as tech chasing goes. I could be wrong, though.

 

[mimgrim]

Some of those things are true techs (wavebouncing,SHDL) in the sense they weren't intentional. Most are 100% intentional mechanics and not techs. (teching lol,air dodging)

A tech is a tech no matter what. Intentional or not. Short Hopping is a tech, Power/Perfect Shielding is a tech, Dash Dancing is a tech, Teching is a tech. Although I'm not sure if I would call air dodges, rolling, and spot dodges techs. lol

Smash is about being simple, at low and high level play. Sakurai sees no room for techs in smash and can patch them now. What else is there to say? You can argue about this all you want, but you won't get anywhere. The tech vs no tech/Melee vs Brawl arguments end in the same way as Goku vs Superman arguments.

If Sakurai saw no room for techs then why did he put in certain techs on purpose? Again I want another quote of him saying exactly that he sees no room for any kind of tech at all. Otherwise you are talking out of your a** again.

 

[D-idara]

And we're done here. Defeating other people is the WHOLE POINT of playing competitively. If that's not what you want, then you've just got to accept that playing competitively is something that will probably never interest you.

If what you want is for the game to teach you how to play, provide you with a gradually increasing level of challenge, and reward you upon conquering each challenge, then what you want is a single-player game, and there are plenty of those out there.

And that's why I liked Subspace Emmissary! It was a single-player twist on the Smash formula!

 

[pitthekit]

I love beating/losing to human opponents it feels good to fight some really creative and intuitive people. And getting dominat.. I mean getting better from the experience...

 

[The Real Gamer]

LOL beating other people is the entire allure of competitive gaming. It's why I enjoy online FPS and Smash so much more than single player campaigns (in most cases).

Constantly playing against computers gets repetitive and boring, but when you're playing against other humans no 2 matches are ever the same.

In fact I'd like to dedicate this post to giving my appreciation to the Smash 4 development team for not continuing SSE. I can't thank them enough for their decision. Here's to hoping they use their resources towards creating what we all want, a bad ass multiplayer experience.

 

[josh bones]

Smash is first and foremost, a multiplayer game. WHy do you think they gave every single player gimmick co-op?

 

[Crocovile]

To be honest, I've never wavedashed or L-cancelled, not even once.
Never bothered to learn it, and I've been fine without it. Though I wouldn't mind if there is some kind of tech skill in Smash 4, I'll do just fine without.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think this can be reframed. I don't mind "tech skill" being rewarded as in things can get fast paced and require a lot of precision to keep up with the pace of decision making. I just mind when the "tech skill" is the point of any given exercise instead of merely an emergent property. Think about an rts like Starcraft. The actions per minute in those games can get ridiculous; skilled players have apms in the hundreds per minute. However, look at any one thing they do. No one is going to go into a Starcraft match and say "wow, look at the precision with which he constructed an additional pylon"; building one structure is by design very easy. The primary challenge is in knowing which of your easy actions to go for and in both making that decision and executing at the breakneck speed required to beat another opponent trying his hardest to win. I feel like smash goes for the same thing; its inputs are so simple compared to most fighting games, but it compensates and then some by giving players such an incredible freedom of movement so there are so many more decisions to make.

Brawl may have been designed to be a patient man's game, using these dynamics to reward consistency and long-term strategy, but even going another direction on that I don't think requires or even benefits from a higher degree of difficulty to take basic actions. So far smash 4 seems to increase the pace of gameplay and reward aggression more without demanding more execution per action, and I think the direction the metagame goes from there will prove better for all of us than what we could get from simply more execution-based challenges.

 

[LancerStaff]

A tech is a tech no matter what. Intentional or not. Short Hopping is a tech, Power/Perfect Shielding is a tech, Dash Dancing is a tech, Teching is a tech. Although I'm not sure if I would call air dodges, rolling, and spot dodges techs. lol



If Sakurai saw no room for techs then why did he put in certain techs on purpose? Again I want another quote of him saying exactly that he sees no room for any kind of tech at all. Otherwise you are talking out of your a** again.

Powershielding is an action. 100% intentional. Wavedashing is a glitch. Not intentional, but also not taken out, so it's a bit of a special case. 'Tech' is just a name made up by smash fans to describe certain aspects of smash. When I said 'Sakurai sees no place for techs in smash', I was talking about Wavedashing and DACUSing. I'm 100% confident that the unintentional 'techs' from Brawl will be removed.

 

[JediLink]

Wavedashing is a glitch.

Stop saying that. Goddamn.

 

[LancerStaff]

*gets up from floor*
The very definition of ''glitch'' is ''unintentional reaction''. Sakurai said it was unintentional. There are no techniques or ftilts in smash. There are actions plus glitches and side strong attacks.

 

[pitthekit]

Dacus was 100% intended... Why would sakurai give certain dash attacks iasa frames for an u smash imput? Or give all dash attacks iasa frames for a grab.

Sakurai intended these- he could remove them and replace them with something similar or just remove them if he did not like how dacus and boasted grab were used in brawl.

Stop hating on things that were discovered... Or continue hating if you enjoy that feeling..

 

[LancerStaff]

Call me a noob, but what are IASA frames? People keep telling me different things...

 

[pitthekit]

Call me a noob, but what are IASA frames? People keep telling me different things...

They are simple frames that give you a moment of time to cancel your move to another move.

If you air dodge to catch an item in brawl: you can cancel your air dodge by tilting the c stick any intended direction. This will cancel your air dodge and you will throw the item. This AT is called instant throw.

Meta knights d tilt has iasa frames to cancel it with a shield or any attack.

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Interruptible_As_Soon_As_frames

Read this for a more intelligent and technical summary. ^

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Powershielding is an action. 100% intentional. Wavedashing is a glitch. Not intentional, but also not taken out, so it's a bit of a special case. 'Tech' is just a name made up by smash fans to describe certain aspects of smash. When I said 'Sakurai sees no place for techs in smash', I was talking about Wavedashing and DACUSing. I'm 100% confident that the unintentional 'techs' from Brawl will be removed.

Wave dashing was not a glitch. Mewtwo's Soul stunner glitch is a glitch, the black hole in Melee is glitch. Wave dashing is a mere exploit of the physics engine since momentum in the game transitions between movement. Running and jumping allows you retain that inertia, just as air dodging in the ground lets you keep that inertia through the slide on the ground, the momentum you gain is based on the angle of the air dodge and the characters individual friction.

A glitch is something that breaks the game or an abnormality in the game that ceases regular function of the game or characters in the game. Last time I checked, wave dashing doesn't do that.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wave dashing was not a glitch. Mewtwo's Soul stunner glitch is a glitch, the black hole in Melee is glitch. Wave dashing is a mere exploit of the physics engine since momentum in the game transitions between movement. Running and jumping allows you retain that inertia, just as air dodging in the ground lets you keep that inertia through the slide on the ground, the momentum you gain is based on the angle of the air dodge and the characters individual friction.

A glitch is something that breaks the game or an abnormality in the game that ceases regular function of the game or characters in the game. Last time I checked, wave dashing doesn't do that.

Are you supposed to be able to move and smash at the same time? There's no such thing as an exploit or technique or whatever you want to call it. What is the definition of ''exploit'' exactly? But that doesn't matter because Sakurai himself said it's unintentional. Unintentional in computer terms is ''glitch''. Or are you going to argue with word of god?

 

[JediLink]

Are you supposed to be able to move and smash at the same time? There's no such thing as an exploit or technique or whatever you want to call it. What is the definition of ''exploit'' exactly? But that doesn't matter because Sakurai himself said it's unintentional. Unintentional in computer terms is ''glitch''. Or are you going to argue with word of god?

Unintentional =/= glitch.

 

[pitthekit]

Are you supposed to be able to move and smash at the same time? There's no such thing as an exploit or technique or whatever you want to call it. What is the definition of ''exploit'' exactly? But that doesn't matter because Sakurai himself said it's unintentional. Unintentional in computer terms is ''glitch''. Or are you going to argue with word of god?

Hyphen smash says hi(dashing and using up smash)

 

[SmashChu]

The bottom line is that every competitive fighting game requires a certain amount of technical precision and a plethora of game knowledge to be good (even Brawl to an extent). Getting good requires dedication and time.

Plenty of people who complain about Melee/Project M's technical barriers could easily overcome them if they were actually willing to put the work in, but they're simply not. They'd rather have a game with a low skill gap so they don't have to work as hard to become decent at the game. IMO these people need to get off of Smashboards (aka a COMPETITIVE GAMING FORUM) and go play Mario Party or something...

One of the golden rules of the Smash community. If it isn't hard, it's Mario Party.

The problem with your assertion, that the technical barriers could easily be overcome with work is flawed because we are playing a damn video game, not working a job. Video games are suppose to be something we do for fun and in our spare time. Most people work 40 hours a week or more. These people, the average man, doesn't want to spend his time "overcoming barriers." He wants to play some video games. Even for those in school who don't work ful time jobs, they would rather spend their time on classes, studying, the opposite sex and other activities. Not "overcoming barriers." The problem is the competitive community is not the norm, they are the exception. People don't want to master tech skills and boost their APM. They want to play a video game. They want to get to enjoying their game, not overcoming barriers. Getting better is not a priority.

What the community doesn't understand is they are not a special snowflake. Brawl sold over 11 million and the community probably only makes a percent or two of that. Most people don't want these tech barriers and they loudly voiced themselves on this matter during Brawl's development. The argument that "They wont notice they are there," flies out the window in an online environment. People were upset about Snaking for the same reason (and that is far easier than the stuff in Melee).The lack of tech skills does not take away from the competitive nature of the game. Up until E3 2013, the biggest Smash tournament was Brawl at Apex 2013. It hasn't stopped the Japanese from trying to master the game. The problem is the community can't let go of Melee. Case in point, tech skills for their sake only take away from the game and are only for people who's lives revolve around the game. Most people's games revolve around their life. As there are over 11 million fans of the series, they don't want to see their beloved series turn into a game that's not for them. Smash grew by being for intermediate players, not the best of the best. Tech skills throws away everything the series has built up.

 

[LancerStaff]

They are simple frames that give you a moment of time to cancel your move to another move.

If you air dodge to catch an item in brawl: you can cancel your air dodge by tilting the c stick any intended direction. This will cancel your air dodge and you will throw the item. This AT is called instant throw.

Meta knights d tilt has iasa frames to cancel it with a shield or any attack.

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Interruptible_As_Soon_As_frames

Read this for a more intelligent and technical summary. ^

So if I understand correctly, IASA frame sometimes let you cancel into specific things, right?
The c-stick is read as up+a instead of it's own imput. A DACUS is performed by pressing A (+direction) and up+A. The IASA frames could have been put there simply to make dash up smashes easier.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Are you supposed to be able to move and smash at the same time? There's no such thing as an exploit or technique or whatever you want to call it. What is the definition of ''exploit'' exactly? But that doesn't matter because Sakurai himself said it's unintentional. Unintentional in computer terms is ''glitch''. Or are you going to argue with word of god?

Word of god? You sound very reassured based off of a few words of an old article you read. You're literally splitting hairs to hear what you think is right.

And yeah, you can move and smash at the same time. Captain Falcon, Fox and many other characters can do it. It's part of the engine.

You aren't Sakurai, and you can't base your argument on something you read in a translated article on the internet. It sounds ridiculous.

 

[LancerStaff]

Word of god? You sound very reassured based off of a few words of an old article you read. You're literally splitting hairs to hear what you think is right.

And yeah, you can move and smash at the same time. Captain Falcon, Fox and many other characters can do it. It's part of the engine.

You aren't Sakurai, and you can't base your argument on something you read in a translated article on the internet. It sounds ridiculous.

He's said this time and time again. He'll even say it again before SSB4 comes out since people still aren't convinced after the first fifty times he's said it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

He's said this time and time again. He'll even say it again before SSB4 comes out since people still aren't convinced after the first fifty times he's said it.

Unless you can provide a source for the information then what you're saying doesn't mean anything. You sound just like the fleet of new smashers who come here and make proclamations of developers intent, and the basis is usually that of an online excerpt that you use due to your shortcomings as a player, claiming the game is too difficult despite the fact that you were probably a toddler or preteen when you played it and didn't even care about suck things. Hell, I guarantee none of you even knew who Sakurai was until Brawl was announced.

So please spare me, I've heard all of these arguments and proclamations from whining self entitled players who believe that the technical barriers are the reasons for their shortcomings. Even if there weren't advanced technical options in Smash 4 the players would find something else to complain about.

 

[smashmachine]

can we all vote to permaban SmashChu forever

 

[josh bones]

can we all vote to permaban SmashChu forever

That's too far, just give him a restraining order from every thread regarding competitive play until ssb8

 

[pitthekit]

can we all vote to permaban SmashChu forever

What? He provides the counter argument! If we can't defeat the counter argument without a doubt then maybe our main point is flawed and we all learn something new. Vice versa.

Plus smashchu was rated 9/10 on hot or not so that plays a huge role to our thought processes.

 

[LancerStaff]

Unless you can provide a source for the information then what you're saying doesn't mean anything. You sound just like the fleet of new smashers who come here and make proclamations of developers intent, and the basis is usually that of an online excerpt that you use due to your shortcomings as a player, claiming the game is too difficult despite the fact that you were probably a toddler or preteen when you played it and didn't even care about suck things. Hell, I guarantee none of you even knew who Sakurai was until Brawl was announced.

So please spare me, I've heard all of these arguments and proclamations from whining self entitled players who believe that the technical barriers are the reasons for their shortcomings. Even if there weren't advanced technical options in Smash 4 the players would find something else to complain about.

I'm not against techniques. I'll admit that I'm pretty young, didn't know who Sakurai was until Brawl, and can't can't pull of a Wavedash, but I have no reason to hate it. Heck, I play hard games all the time and I'd get good at SSB4 even if it somehow ended up more technical then Melee.

What am I currently arguing against exactly? Whiny, entitled, Melee fans who believe they're special for liking that game more and believe that their glitch IS Smash Bros. I also argue against whiny and entitled Brawl fans on a regular basis. Any whiny and entitled 'fan' deserves to be put in it's place.

Now, let's get back to the argument at hand.

You choose to disregard the articles. Give me a good reason why that they're all wrong.

 

[pitthekit]

Why do new players always call melee players self entitled whiny brats? I feel like it is a stigma. I guess people enjoy calling me a whiny brat

 

[LancerStaff]

Why do new players always call melee players self entitled whiny brats? I feel like it is a stigma. I guess people enjoy calling me a whiny brat

It's nothing like that. I've been called a whiny and entitled Brawl fanboy many times. I'm just against any and all whiny fanboys. Seriously, this topic has been pretty civil so far.

 

[smashmachine]

Why do new players always call melee players self entitled whiny brats? I feel like it is a stigma. I guess people enjoy calling me a whiny brat

don't fool yourself, these people are not new in any way

 

[Renji64]

One of the golden rules of the Smash community. If it isn't hard, it's Mario Party.

The problem with your assertion, that the technical barriers could easily be overcome with work is flawed because we are playing a damn video game, not working a job. Video games are suppose to be something we do for fun and in our spare time. Most people work 40 hours a week or more. These people, the average man, doesn't want to spend his time "overcoming barriers." He wants to play some video games. Even for those in school who don't work ful time jobs, they would rather spend their time on classes, studying, the opposite sex and other activities. Not "overcoming barriers." The problem is the competitive community is not the norm, they are the exception. People don't want to master tech skills and boost their APM. They want to play a video game. They want to get to enjoying their game, not overcoming barriers. Getting better is not a priority.

What the community doesn't understand is they are not a special snowflake. Brawl sold over 11 million and the community probably only makes a percent or two of that. Most people don't want these tech barriers and they loudly voiced themselves on this matter during Brawl's development. The argument that "They wont notice they are there," flies out the window in an online environment. People were upset about Snaking for the same reason (and that is far easier than the stuff in Melee).The lack of tech skills does not take away from the competitive nature of the game. Up until E3 2013, the biggest Smash tournament was Brawl at Apex 2013. It hasn't stopped the Japanese from trying to master the game. The problem is the community can't let go of Melee. Case in point, tech skills for their sake only take away from the game and are only for people who's lives revolve around the game. Most people's games revolve around their life. As there are over 11 million fans of the series, they don't want to see their beloved series turn into a game that's not for them. Smash grew by being for intermediate players, not the best of the best. Tech skills throws away everything the series has built up.

Or they rather play a better game than sakurai's take on balloon fighter with how floaty it is.

 

[LancerStaff]

Or they rather play a better game than sakurai's take on balloon fighter with how floaty it is.

Sakurai doesn't care about the 1%. Why are you more important then the casuals that make up the most of the fanbase?

 

[Renji64]

Sakurai doesn't care about the 1%. Why are you more important then the casuals that make up the most of the fanbase?

I never said i was more important he should be able to balance the game for both audiences i have supported the game since the n64 relase. Casuals will move on and won't be playing it in the long run.

 

[smashmachine]

Sakurai doesn't care about the 1%. Why are you more important then the casuals that make up the most of the fanbase?

and why do you speak for the entire "casual" group

Hardcores won't be paying another 60$ again for the same game. Sakurai sees absolutely no reason to focus on the 1%.

....what are you even talking about?

 

[LancerStaff]

I never said i was more important he should be able to balance the game for both audiences i have supported the game since the n64 relase. Casuals will move on and won't be playing it in the long run.

Hardcores won't be paying another 60$ again for the same game. Sakurai sees absolutely no reason to focus on the 1%.

 

[LancerStaff]

and why do you speak for the entire "casual" group

Because I want an interesting argument. I support both sides.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

One of the golden rules of the Smash community. If it isn't hard, it's Mario Party.

The problem with your assertion, that the technical barriers could easily be overcome with work is flawed because we are playing a damn video game, not working a job. Video games are suppose to be something we do for fun and in our spare time. Most people work 40 hours a week or more. These people, the average man, doesn't want to spend his time "overcoming barriers." He wants to play some video games. Even for those in school who don't work ful time jobs, they would rather spend their time on classes, studying, the opposite sex and other activities. Not "overcoming barriers." The problem is the competitive community is not the norm, they are the exception. People don't want to master tech skills and boost their APM. They want to play a video game. They want to get to enjoying their game, not overcoming barriers. Getting better is not a priority.

What the community doesn't understand is they are not a special snowflake. Brawl sold over 11 million and the community probably only makes a percent or two of that. Most people don't want these tech barriers and they loudly voiced themselves on this matter during Brawl's development. The argument that "They wont notice they are there," flies out the window in an online environment. People were upset about Snaking for the same reason (and that is far easier than the stuff in Melee).The lack of tech skills does not take away from the competitive nature of the game. Up until E3 2013, the biggest Smash tournament was Brawl at Apex 2013. It hasn't stopped the Japanese from trying to master the game. The problem is the community can't let go of Melee. Case in point, tech skills for their sake only take away from the game and are only for people who's lives revolve around the game. Most people's games revolve around their life. As there are over 11 million fans of the series, they don't want to see their beloved series turn into a game that's not for them. Smash grew by being for intermediate players, not the best of the best. Tech skills throws away everything the series has built up.

Brawl GF's at apex 2014 had less viewers on stream than both melee and P:M and nearly less than ssb64's btw to crush that part of your argument.

You don't think a casually gamer couldn't like and enjoy melee just because there is a competitive side to it? Most of us started playing that game as casuals if you have forgotten. You think you cant have fun playing competitively?My first tournament I went to (Rule 6) we had a giant melee battle on Brinstar and laughed our asses off doing so. Also you think 11 million people are still fans of the game? Jesus I know dozens of people that picked up the game for a week then dropped it forever even after the game was made "less technical" for them. Besides, who the hell thought Brawl was overall more exciting than Melee? People love crazy combos not planking and spamming projectiles (R.O.B). Why the hell should we give up Melee if we still find it fun and exciting? You should play this game because its fun TO YOU not because of the games age or difficultly and that's why most of us stick with Melee. We like it and its that simple.
No tech skill at all? Whats wrong with you. Think about that one Chu.

Chu you are going to cause a civil war here. Not to force you to stay quiet just remember you are a powder keg with your opinions so don't get this thread locked