The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[Muster]

Melee sold 7 million copies, which is pretty impressive considering it's console sold 1/4th as much as the wii and it only sold 4 million less than brawl. Why is it that people think the game can't have technical depth and still appeal to casuals? It's not really that hard to pull off.

I LOVE Melee, and i probably never would've gotten into it if the game didn't let young me unlock just about everything just spamming link's up b and playing on very easy. I didn't know about wavedashing, L cancelling or crouch cancelling, (but i did know how to tech off of of walls and the floor for some reason) but I enjoyed the game and all it had to offer nontheless. All the technical depth of the game was extend it's longevity, something that Brawl just could not do for me.

Besides, It's not like technical skills would even effect the online play that much, a better player will still bonk you with or without being able to l cancel or wave dash.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

Sakurai doesn't care about the 1%. Why are you more important then the casuals that make up the most of the fanbase?

We broadcast the game more. You think dota would be as big as it is without its competitive scene? Not to say it should be the games focal point but some attempt should be made to appease the hardcore section.

 

[LancerStaff]

We broadcast the game more. You think dota would be as big as it is without its competitive scene?

Is this dota (whatever it is)? No. This is Sakurai's game. He can whatever he wants to it. He doesn't care about your complaining. Can you, or anybody else, prove that Melee was ever supposed to appeal to casual and hardcore?

 

[smashmachine]

Is this dota (whatever it is)? No. This is Sakurai's game. He can whatever he wants to it. He doesn't care about your complaining. Can you, or anybody else, prove that Melee was ever supposed to appeal to casual and hardcore?

.....WHAT?

 

[pitthekit]

We broadcast the game more. You think dota would be as big as it is without its competitive scene?

He brings up a very dynamic and interesting point! Advertising!

Casuals are like cheap prostitute that sakurai baits with a game that is "easy to learn, hard to master" to make a big profit.

While we are like classy women which sakurai has left great little gifts for us to discover and use.
We classy women discuss about how to use our gifts from sakurai to compete against each other.

... I know that sounded elitist.

Is this dota (whatever it is)? No. This is Sakurai's game. He can whatever he wants to it. He doesn't care about your complaining. Can you, or anybody else, prove that Melee was ever supposed to appeal to casual and hardcore?

the concept of top players advertising a games potential is universal between competitive games.

As said before melee's philosophy was "easy to learn,hard to master"

And jedilink said before that melee has very simple techs to learn and have techs that are very hard, while some are between these two difficulties.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

Hardcores won't be paying another 60$ again for the same game. Sakurai sees absolutely no reason to focus on the 1%.

 

[smashmachine]

I love how LancerStaff is basically implying that SSB4 is a cheap cashgrab that's near identical to Brawl, therefore "hardcore" people won't pick it up
.....LOL

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

Is this dota (whatever it is)? No. This is Sakurai's game. He can whatever he wants to it. He doesn't care about your complaining. Can you, or anybody else, prove that Melee was ever supposed to appeal to casual and hardcore?

Casual ? Yes THEY MADE A COIN MODE! ****ING COIN MODE! Competitive is a hard one, I mean on one side you have Sakurai proclaiming it was not made to be competitive but then you look at how much depth is in the game and it just blows me away.

 

[LancerStaff]

.....WHAT?

Keyword: And.

I love how LancerStaff is basically implying that SSB4 is a cheap cashgrab that's near identical to Brawl, therefore "hardcore" people won't pick it up
.....LOL

Trying to act all cutsey will get you in deeper.

Casual ? Yes THEY MADE A COIN MODE! ****ING COIN MODE! Competitive is a hard one, I mean on one side you have Sakurai proclaiming it was not made to be competitive but then you look at how much depth is in the game and it just blows me away.

And Sakurai is trying to remove said depth because it conflicts with his ideal Smash. Unless you dig out an old article that has Sakurai say ''Melee was supposed to appeal to hardcore players'' you have no way to prove it wasn't just an accident.

 

[Overtaken]

It's been said, more or less, in this thread, but I'll give you guys my two coins on this topic.

I see a very positive role for what we typically refer to as 'tech skills' in smash bros, but there is also something to be said against it in a way. Tech skills cannot and do not unto themselves make an interesting competition, at least not in this context. They exist to challenge you to win at something by being more coordinated, as in quite literally your hand-eye coordination. Think of all the Mario Party mini-games that are just purely challenges to see who can press a button the fastest, or a sequence of buttons (snow whirled? remember that one?) They are sort of fun for a little while, but it isn't very exciting for most of us for very long.

Contrast this to what smash brothers is truly about: the mental competition. Knowing more, making the better decision and utilizing the best strategy. Think chess. Pure coordination/reflex competitions are tedious and boring, and generally meaningless, whereas purely mental competitions like chess are renowned and treasured because they speak for something much more important to the human condition: the mind.

That said, SSB is not stratego with Nintendo characters. Like many great video games it marries two types of challenges into one, adding a physical component to a mental challenge. It gives us the muscle stimulation, the sweat and adrenaline, while mitigating the tedious, meaningless chore of it by making it the vessel, the vehicle, of the mental stimulation. And for this, 'tech skill' is fundamentally important to this type of game, but never as or more important than strategy.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

Keyword: And.
And Sakurai is trying to remove said depth because it conflicts with his ideal Smash. Unless you dig out an old article that has Sakurai say ''Melee was supposed to appeal to hardcore players'' you have no way to prove it wasn't just an accident.

Yea he's REALLLLLLLYYY TRYYING to remove depth by making the game with the companies that made both Soul Calibur and Tekken this time around. Both fairly know for their deep fighting games.

 

[Muster]

And Sakurai is trying to remove said depth because it conflicts with his ideal Smash. Unless you dig out an old article that has Sakurai say ''Melee was supposed to appeal to hardcore players'' you have no way to prove it wasn't just an accident.

If he's trying to remove the depth, why would he be purposely making this new smash game with a speed in between melee's and brawls?
Look here
"To paint in broad strokes, Melee is for the maniac, the veteran player, while Brawl is for a newer, more casual gamer, as far as the speed goes," Sakurai explained. "Melee, of course, is super fast, and the people who are used to that game love that gameplay. But it may be a barrier for folks who found it a little imposing. Brawl was designed to be more approachable and accessible by folks who might [used to be playing] Wii Fit or Wii Play."

"Now, with the new Smash Bros., we're thinking the positioning will be really right in the middle."

Sakurai explained that Wii owners who started playing Smash Bros. with Brawl have become more experienced gamers, and will find the speed boost in the sequel easier to enjoy. He also confirmed that the Wii U and 3DS Smash Bros. games won't have tripping (or prat falls), and that "at this point," the games will allow for multiple air dodges." (look at this, Brawl air dodge isn't set in stone, isn't that just dandy?)

If Brawl was designed to be easy to approach by casuals, then what exactly does that make melee? Sakurai even acknowledges that Melee is for the veteran player that is used to a faster game, AND that the new smash will be a compromise between both, because he feels that people who started with Brawl now have the skill to handle a faster and deeper game.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

@ Overtaken My exact thoughts about the guys asking to remove Tech's. you need techs and other stuff to keep it from being a mini game from Mario Party.

 

[JediLink]

Unless you dig out an old article that has Sakurai say ''Melee was supposed to appeal to hardcore players'' you have no way to prove it wasn't just an accident.

So what, did Sakurai just accidentally program DI in his sleep? Did Sakurai's cat jump onto the keyboard and accidentally program power shielding?

Think before you say things, man.

 

[pitthekit]

Yawn* we will see what sakurai's true intention when ssb4 comes out and decoders and players look for the technical means of smash 4.

And if smash 4 becomes an e-sport it means sakurai got greedy and made the game have actually depth and strategy netting him a lot of money and wii u publicity.

I predict that smash 4 will be the competitive average of brawl and melee.

As for now: lancer you are just parroting sakurai's word like a drone.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

If he's trying to remove the depth, why would he be purposely making this new smash game with a speed in between melee's and brawls?
Look here
"To paint in broad strokes, Melee is for the maniac, the veteran player, while Brawl is for a newer, more casual gamer, as far as the speed goes," Sakurai explained. "Melee, of course, is super fast, and the people who are used to that game love that gameplay. But it may be a barrier for folks who found it a little imposing. Brawl was designed to be more approachable and accessible by folks who might [used to be playing] Wii Fit or Wii Play."

"Now, with the new Smash Bros., we're thinking the positioning will be really right in the middle."

Sakurai explained that Wii owners who started playing Smash Bros. with Brawl have become more experienced gamers, and will find the speed boost in the sequel easier to enjoy. He also confirmed that the Wii U and 3DS Smash Bros. games won't have tripping (or prat falls), and that "at this point," the games will allow for multiple air dodges."

If Brawl was designed to be easy to approach by casuals, then what exactly does that make melee? Sakurai even acknowledges that Melee is for the veteran player that is used to a faster game, AND that the new smash will be a compromise between both, because he feels that people who started with Brawl now have the skill to handle a faster and deeper game.

That actually sounds really smart coming from Sakurai. Going in circles with the majority of peoples skill level and working it like the cycle of the moon.

 

[smashmachine]

So what, did Sakurai just accidentally program DI in his sleep? Did Sakurai's cat jump onto the keyboard and accidentally program power shielding?

Think before you say things, man.

Sakurai's cat did 64 and Melee, Sakurai did Brawl
clearly, the solution is obvious

 

[pitthekit]

If he's trying to remove the depth, why would he be purposely making this new smash game with a speed in between melee's and brawls?
Look here
"To paint in broad strokes, Melee is for the maniac, the veteran player, while Brawl is for a newer, more casual gamer, as far as the speed goes," Sakurai explained. "Melee, of course, is super fast, and the people who are used to that game love that gameplay. But it may be a barrier for folks who found it a little imposing. Brawl was designed to be more approachable and accessible by folks who might [used to be playing] Wii Fit or Wii Play."

"Now, with the new Smash Bros., we're thinking the positioning will be really right in the middle."

Sakurai explained that Wii owners who started playing Smash Bros. with Brawl have become more experienced gamers, and will find the speed boost in the sequel easier to enjoy. He also confirmed that the Wii U and 3DS Smash Bros. games won't have tripping (or prat falls), and that "at this point," the games will allow for multiple air dodges."

If Brawl was designed to be easy to approach by casuals, then what exactly does that make melee? Sakurai even acknowledges that Melee is for the veteran player that is used to a faster game, AND that the new smash will be a compromise between both, because he feels that people who started with Brawl now have the skill to handle a faster and deeper game.

Finally a new prophet to spread sakurai's word. *shoos away lancer staff

This post wins the "sakurai wanted this argument"

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

Sakurai's cat did 64 and Melee, Sakurai did Brawl
clearly, the solution is obvious

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Is this dota (whatever it is)? No. This is Sakurai's game. He can whatever he wants to it. He doesn't care about your complaining. Can you, or anybody else, prove that Melee was ever supposed to appeal to casual and hardcore?

Can you prove it wasn't ?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Even if there weren't advanced technical options in Smash 4 the players would find something else to complain about.

If they aren't complaining about Melee's technical barriers then they're complaining about Metaknight in Brawl... Wonder what it'll be for Smash 4? lol

 

[LancerStaff]

So what, did Sakurai just accidentally program DI in his sleep? Did Sakurai's cat jump onto the keyboard and accidentally program power shielding?

Think before you say things, man.

I could in fact argue it was his cat somebody else, because we don't know who programed the code.
But this isn't the world of Ace Attorney.

Power shielding and basic DI could and was discovered by casuals. They're simple. Heck, how do we even know Sakurai knows about DI?

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

I could in fact argue it was his cat somebody else, because we don't know who programed the code.
But this isn't the world of Ace Attorney.

Power shielding and basic DI could and was discovered by casuals. They're simple. Heck, how do we even know Sakurai knows about DI?

I think spending thousands of hours making the game would give it away.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think spending thousands of hours making the game would give it away.

But you can't prove it. He's balancing the game in casual gameplay. It's just as easy to not discover it as it is to discover it.

 

[JediLink]

Hey LancerStaff, you're famous!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=99664616&postcount=18789

 

[LancerStaff]

Hey LancerStaff, you're famous!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=99664616&postcount=18789

Of course they're taking it out of context...

 

[Muster]

But you can't prove it. He's balancing the game in casual gameplay. It's just as easy to not discover it as it is to discover it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Eh,so? I'll admit I've never carried the argument this far before. And it's getting late.
And I have a cold.

Somebody will disprove it, and I'll come up with something else.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

But you can't prove it. He's balancing the game in casual gameplay. It's just as easy to not discover it as it is to discover it.

DO YOU READ WHAT YOU TYPE SON

Eh,so? I'll admit I've never carried the argument this far before. And it's getting late.
And I have a cold.

Somebody will disprove it, and I'll come up with something else.

also get better soon!

 

[LancerStaff]

DO YOU READ WHAT YOU TYPE SON


also get better soon!

I'll admit, the past fiveish posts were me winging it. XD

I guess today wasn't my day. I'll let you win for now.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

I'll admit, the past fiveish posts were me winging it. XD

I guess today wasn't my day. I'll let you win for now.

 

[LancerStaff]

Hey LancerStaff, you're famous!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=99664616&postcount=18789

Seriously though, can somebody sort that out? I ment 'Hardcores won't continually pay 60$ to play any specific SSB.'

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

Seriously though, can somebody sort that out? I ment 'Hardcores won't continually pay 60$ to play any specific SSB.'

Its the Guitar Hero theory

 

[LancerStaff]

Its the Guitar Hero theory

You know what I ment...

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

You know what I ment...

Somewhat, I mean you're not Chu so I can be civil with you.

 

[LancerStaff]

Somewhat, I mean you're not Chu so I can be civil with you.

What's wrong with SmashChu? I've been lurking for about a year and never saw him insult anybody.

 

[(G-S.N) Chicago Ben]

What's wrong with SmashChu? I've been lurking for about a year and never saw him insult anybody.

Just one of those guys you will argue with till the ends of time about competitive Melee. Most of my dis at him right there.
Now shutup and laugh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL0FhRGhgFs

 

[LancerStaff]

Just one of those guys you will argue with till the ends of time about competitive Melee. Most of my dis at him right there.
Now shutup and laugh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL0FhRGhgFs

Dunno, I got pretty close.
Seriously though, doesn't everybody else argue their point until the end of time? It's pretty much human nature.

 

[Johnknight1]

Video games are suppose to be something we do for fun and in our spare time. Most people work 40 hours a week or more. These people, the average man, doesn't want to spend his time "overcoming barriers." He wants to play some video games. Even for those in school who don't work ful time jobs, they would rather spend their time on classes, studying, the opposite sex and other activities. Not "overcoming barriers." The problem is the competitive community is not the norm, they are the exception. People don't want to master tech skills and boost their APM. They want to play a video game. They want to get to enjoying their game, not overcoming barriers. Getting better is not a priority.

So what you are saying is the average person can't enjoy a game that you have to be "overcoming barriers" to get better at=???

I guess sports don't exist, because that is one of the most popular forms of entertainment, and yet, their are barriers and tiers of it.

Also, there are barriers and tiers in work (we call them "job level", "pay", and "skill level"), school ("grades", "schools", "different levels of degrees"), and the opposite sex ("single" vs. "taken").

Also, just the basic of concept of Smash is competitive. One player vs. another. A platformer game. One vs. one is the purest form of competition. That's one of the big draws of fight sports like boxing, MMA, and tennis, 3 of the fastest growing sports in the world, all grossing billions upon billions of dollars of revenue each year.

Platformers are ineptly able to being played competitively. Games with platformer elements like Mario, Kirby, and Sonic have speed runs. Those speed runs are now the most watched live broadcasts of people playing said games. Heck, even before the livestream era, I used to race my friends at levels in Mario 3 as early as 5. Heck, racing is a sport people love, and it is probably the biggest draw of the summer Olympics.

What the community doesn't understand is they are not a special snowflake.

We aren't. Sports are played competitive. Other games are played competitively. And people enjoy them, and watch them, live in the hundreds, thousands, and upwards to tens of thousands, and via TV or the internet up to millions live. Sports are the most watched live events on television. Video game competitions routinely outdo TV shows.

Unless you take away control from the competitors, in sports, video games, politics, and yes, even Smash, everything will inevitably have competition. It's just a fact. Competition and life go hand and hand. It is one of the things that makes us human; we love to compete for just the thrill of it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Even taken out of context, it sounds like he's fighting somewhat for both sides and he's not 100% sure what to think about those things. Dunno, I think we could find some of your conflicting arguments if we looked.