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The 2006-2008 Tier list

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Pink Reaper

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No, Pichu CANNOT Chaingrab Fastfallers. DI + Teching ruins any CG Pichu could hpe to have. Pichu's Recover/Projectile are both much worse than Mewtwo's as both hurt pichu for using them. His projectile has no spamability as each jolt does more damage on average to him than his opponent. Meanwhile Mewtwo has a projectile sort of like Samus' Charge Beam that allows him to severely punish an opponent for making a mistake. Pichu has no real combos other than Uair juggles on Fast Fallers which can be easily escaped with DI and Smash DI. Mewtwo on the other hand has legit combos and a much better tech chase game.


Edit: As for mewtwo sounding amazing, this is all just in comparison to Pichu, in which case, just about everyone is amazing.
 

StripesOrBars

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Like I said in the Brawl Tier thread.

The SBR is half intellegent and half ********.

When these lists are made, people who don't even attend tournies get a say in character placement.

Kinda ********, but so is Falco being top.

Also, look at the official SBR Brawl stage,rule, ect list to see just how idiotic they are.
 

RDK

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So how did Pichu and Kirby get above Mewtwo in the first place?
He didn't.

Basically it goes something like Bowser-Mewtwo-Pichu-Kirby. At least Pichu has some comboability. Kirby truly has nothing. He's way too one-dimensional and has just an awful approach as well as all-around subpar attacks.
 

Xiivi

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Actually after some thinking, Pichu definitely has a lot more to offer than Kirby.


Bottom:
(Maybe Ness, but Low Tier seems to fit him more)
Bowser
Mewtwo
Pichu
Kirby
 

Xiivi

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If Bowser is better than Ness then Mewtwo is better as well, Bowser and Mewtwo really aren't that far apart at all. Ness is more up in the air for me. I could easily see him being below Bowser/Mewtwo.

Bottom:
Bowser
Mewtwo
Ness
Pichu
Kirby

Disagreements?

Also:
Top: Sheik/Marth/Fox (not too intent on debating the order, so I'll put them all together for now)
Upper: Falco
Then have High tier. Falco is definitely a step below those three, but a step above the rest of the cast.
 

Pink Reaper

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If Bowser is better than Ness then Mewtwo is better as well, Bowser and Mewtwo really aren't that far apart at all. Ness is more up in the air for me. I could easily see him being below Bowser/Mewtwo.

Bottom:
Bowser
Mewtwo
Ness
Pichu
Kirby

Disagreements?

Also:
Top: Sheik/Marth/Fox (not too intent on debating the order, so I'll put them all together for now)
Upper: Falco
Then have High tier. Falco is definitely a step below those three, but a step above the rest of the cast.
My only disagreement is Kirby/Pichu. They are both equally bad characters both deserving of the bottom slot its just that Pichu manages to damage himself while while being horrible.

Actually, there's also one more thing, if your going to have a bottom tier, zelda needs to be in it.
 

everlasting yayuhzz

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No, Pichu CANNOT Chaingrab Fastfallers. DI + Teching ruins any CG Pichu could hpe to have. Pichu's Recover/Projectile are both much worse than Mewtwo's as both hurt pichu for using them. His projectile has no spamability as each jolt does more damage on average to him than his opponent. Meanwhile Mewtwo has a projectile sort of like Samus' Charge Beam that allows him to severely punish an opponent for making a mistake. Pichu has no real combos other than Uair juggles on Fast Fallers which can be easily escaped with DI and Smash DI. Mewtwo on the other hand has legit combos and a much better tech chase game.


Edit: As for mewtwo sounding amazing, this is all just in comparison to Pichu, in which case, just about everyone is amazing.
Pichu can chain grab. Just don't JC the grab and he can. >_>
 

Kyu Puff

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I still believe that Mewtwo is below Pichu. Mewtwo can't handle certain fundamental game strategies -- he stands no chance against an aggressive Falco, Falcon, or Marth, and he stands even less of a chance against a camping Sheik or Fox (or Falco). His defensive game is crap, his shield is bad, he has no spotdodge, huge, floaty, light, relatively slow, and easy to hit in general. Pichu is more viable in a competitive environment.

Top
Marth
Fox
Sheik
Falco

High (tournament placings)
Falcon
Peach
Ice Climbers/Jiggs

Mid
Samus
Ganon
Luigi
Doc
Mario
Donkey Kong
Link

Low
Pikachu
Young Link
G&W
Ness
Zelda
Roy

Bottom
Yoshi
Bowser
Pichu
Mewtwo
Kirby


Edit -- Reaper, MM Pichu vs your Kirby at Ohana? :colorful:
 

Scar

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What was wrong with M2K's list? And I think

Sheik
Fox
Marth

are easy the top 3 and I still put Falco in Falco tier b/c he's significantly less able to win tournies than those top 3 and significantly more able than CF Jiggs ICs and Peach.

I think it's about time we get a back room for Melee... we need a committee/panel to take what we have already--a very firm grasp on the outline of this list--and make the executive decisions necessary to turn it into an official list.
 

Vts

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What was wrong with M2K's list? And I think

Sheik
Fox
Marf

are easy the top 3 and I still put Falco in Falco tier b/c he's significantly less able to win tourneys than those top 3 and significantly more able than CF Jigs ICs and Peach.

I think it's about time we get a back room for Melee... we need a committee/panel to take what we have already--a very firm grasp on the outline of this list--and make the executive decisions necessary to turn it into an official list.
i agree with 90% of m2k list but i still don't believe DK and doc should be that high, everything else looks closest you can get.

Getting a back room would be great idea, but with the increase in skill in tournaments results could effect the list. Since the tier list is kind of based off tournament results which is nice, but should be more based off if the character is good or trash. People like gimpy are just amazing and have better understanding of the character he uses and mindgames so is boozer top tier? no , just an amazing player.
 

Xiivi

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Top:
Fox/Sheik/Marth (These three really are very close, I feel the Fox can do nastier things than either Sheik or Marth though.)

Upper:
Falco (Falco is definitely a step below the three above him, but definitely deserving of a tier above those below him.)

High:
Peach/Falcon (Both are very good, I don't know who I'd put above the other really.)
ICs/Jiggs (I'd probably go with ICs above Jiggs, very close.)

Mid:
Doc/Ganondorf/Samus (I don't think Samus is as limited as M2K says, definitely as limited as Doc and Ganon)
Mario
Luigi/DK (I think both of these two have proved themselves mid tier these past years.)

Low:
Link/Pikachu
Young Link
Roy/Zelda/Game and Watch (I'd personally put Zelda above these two.)
Yoshi (Maybe bottom tier. Is Bowser really worse than Yoshi?)

Bottom:
Bowser
Mewtwo
Ness (The more I think about it, Ness just has nothing going for him at all in this game at all.)
Pichu/Kirby
 

hoopspr226

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Are there really enough knowledgeable, active melee players to create a new melee SBR? From what I've seen, most of the truly knowledgeable/highly respected opinions in this thread come from a handful of good EC players. M2K seems to be the only truly elite player that has been involved in debating the tier list. While M2K's opinions are obviously very good and very educated, it's still only one person's opinion.

If a new melee SBR were formed, and they made a new tier list, this tier list would be too heavily influenced by M2K's opinions. We need to hear from other top players like PC Chris, Shiz, etc.
 

Xiivi

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Just solidifying my thoughts. When 2 characters have asterisks, I think there is an easy possibility they could switch.

Top:
Fox
Sheik*
Marth*

Upper:
Falco

High:
Peach
Falcon
ICs
Jiggs

Mid:
Doc
Ganondorf
DK
Mario*
Samus*
Luigi

Low:
Link
Pikachu
Young Link
Zelda
Roy*
Game and Watch*

Bottom:
Yoshi*
Bowser*
Mewtwo
Ness*
Pichu*
Kirby
 

otg

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Nice list, but it seems like this thread is running it's course. Fact of the matter is, unless we can actually get an 'official' list made with top level input, than we're just splitting hairs. Most people agree about certain changes (falco down, jiggz/falcon/icies high tier, etc etc), but no one in the SBR seems to want to make changes due to Brawl's release.
 

Xiivi

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They changed the 06-07 to 06-08
me thinks they'll get one out in 09.
Or just go...06-09. :/

Nice list, but it seems like this thread is running it's course. Fact of the matter is, unless we can actually get an 'official' list made with top level input, than we're just splitting hairs. Most people agree about certain changes (falco down, jiggz/falcon/icies high tier, etc etc), but no one in the SBR seems to want to make changes due to Brawl's release.
It's very doubtful that the SBR will make a new tier list for melee at this point. It would also be very hard to get a new group together, although very beneficial for the reasons StripesorBars said earlier.

Anyway, looking at the most recent mock tier lists:
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5270912&postcount=4840
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5366645&postcount=4932
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5337121&postcount=4922
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5031291&postcount=4705
we can see there's plenty of disagreement individuals have.

I say we take one of these and go from it. M2K's would easily be the best to start from.
 

Vyse

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I agree with Xiivi
Use M2K's tier list as a Base:

Mew2King said:
Top
Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco

High
C.Falcon
Jiggs
Peach
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario

Mid
DK
Ganon
Mario
Samus
Luigi
Pikachu
Link

Low
Y. Link
Zelda
Roy
G&W
Yoshi

Bottom
Mewtwo
Pichu
Bowser
Ness
Kirby
It seems like we're more interested in Bottom tier.
I guess since they have the least amount of tournament data to go on we can only really debate them from a theorhetical standpoint.
 

Xiivi

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I just put my personal thoughts and M2K's next to each other.
Small disagreements:
Fox vs Sheik
DK vs Ganondorf
Link vs Pikachu

Large areas of debate:
Falcon vs Peach vs Jiggs vs ICs
Bowser vs Mewtwo vs Pichu vs Ness

I'd say it'd be most beneficial to work from the top to the bottom really.
 

Vyse

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Okay so round 1.

Fox Vs. Sheik.

Mew2King said:
4) Fox and Falco supposedly have a small advantage vs Sheik, but I've always sucked at fighting Sheik w/ Fox. However, since the vast majority of other pros I talk to think Fox has the advantage I'll just accept that.
I think the reason M2K put Sheik above Fox is more to do with matchups with other characters, rather than Sheik Vs Fox.
 

Xiivi

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Okay so round 1.

Fox Vs. Sheik.

I think the reason M2K put Sheik above Fox is more to do with matchups with other characters, rather than Sheik Vs Fox.
I wasn't referencing the match-up itself, obviously. But really, when looking at match-ups, yes Sheik can completely make the low/bottom tiers non-match-ups. Whilst Fox needs to worry about getting chaingrabbed to doom vs them still. However, despite that disadvantage, Fox easily decimates them. Sure, Fox has to worry about being wrecked by such grab combos, but in the end, Fox shouldn't be grabbed.

Fox also has a much better ability to control the higher tiers than Sheik does in my opinion, which I feel counts more. I agree that Fox, Sheik, and Marth are very close to one another, but I feel Fox does have the tools to be a small notch above both of them.
 

Pink Reaper

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I wasn't referencing the match-up itself, obviously. But really, when looking at match-ups, yes Sheik can completely make the low/bottom tiers non-match-ups. Whilst Fox needs to worry about getting chaingrabbed to doom vs them still. However, despite that disadvantage, Fox easily decimates them. Sure, Fox has to worry about being wrecked by such grab combos, but in the end, Fox shouldn't be grabbed.
Fox also has an amazing tool to help him avoid being grabbed. His shine outspeeds basically every grab in the game so in truth he doesn't have to be that worried about grabs(Just look at Chillen vs Chu from Evo, his shine abuse helped him gain huge ground as it was basically un-punishable by Chu)
 

Xiivi

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Fox also has an amazing tool to help him avoid being grabbed. His shine outspeeds basically every grab in the game so in truth he doesn't have to be that worried about grabs(Just look at Chillen vs Chu from Evo, his shine abuse helped him gain huge ground as it was basically un-punishable by Chu)
When I said Fox shouldn't ever be grabbed, I thought it would be obvious I was referencing the shine. But oh well. -_-;;
 
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Here's my tier list if anyone wants to see it. I changed it a bit today, after like a month, all at the low tier end. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5067839#post5067839 I think it's sweet.

I could see the top 3 (Fox, Marth, Sheik) going any which way in the order. If you go by matchups, It's still hard to determine. Sheik has a slight disadvantages towards Fox, and Falco. But the matchups are quite winnable... The better player will still win. Sheik is the only character that counters Marth, though. (not that the match up is unwinnable for Marth, but she has a definite advantage) That could set her apart. Fox has no bad matchups, really, though. Sheik has 2 slightly disadvantaged matchups, and counters Marth... My vote is they're tied.
I'll get into Marth later, as this is just Sheik vs. Fox. I think he's tied too, though.. but I'll have to get into a whole different tangent... It'll be amazing, you'll see :cool: ... JK kinda.
 

KirbyKaze

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I don't think that Sheik having a 55/45 disadvantage vs the space animals is really that bad. 55/45 is a very small difference. I'd even argue Fox being closer than Falco because Falco's CC and laser game is stupidly good at shutting down Sheik's damage output until about 60%, whereas Fox's main advantage is that he doesn't get owned by Nair out of shield and has real damage out of grab.

Fox is easier as a matchup than Falco is for Sheik. Fox/Sheik is probably closer than 55/45, honestly. If you space aerials, D-smash intelligently (and frequently), space your F-tilt/aerials when he attacks, and know your stuff while tech chasing then it's very manageable.

Out of D-throw you can cover 3/4 of his tech options with U-smash, which is absolutely ridiculous, KDJ used to spam this. It's also very possible to react to Fox teching in place with regrab if you just time it properly and pay very close attention to his animation out of the tech (M2K does this a lot). And then, of course, there's dash attack. Out of D-throw Sheik's tech chase options are ridiculous, some are even borderline guaranteed. If you just wavedash in the direction of their DI and then react, D-smash and Dash Attack cover pretty much anywhere they go. Drephen does this a ton after like 30-50% and it's really good.

Her F-tilt beats Fox's Nair outright if you space. This is so good for shutting his approaches down. I'm pretty sure if you pivot you can grab him through his Nair, too. Which leads to all the ridiculous tech chasing above. Her Fair and Bair cleanly beat his aerial approaches.

If you just space your aerials against Fox when you approach and use A LOT of needles from platforms to help limit his DD game and play aggressively it's very, very close as a matchup. Sheik loses when Fox gets inside her, forces her to do something stupid by shooting her a lot, and gets through the spacing and combos her for like 35-40%. Fox loses when he hits a corner and has nowhere to dash dance to and has to commit to a move, approach into the ****, or commit to a defensive movement (probably onto a platform to try and retreat). Really, you just have to keep a lid on his stupid dash dance and laser crap.

From there, Sheik is also the only character with an advantage on Marth. Her worst matchups have the most balance between close and quantity (two 55/45 disadvantages and from there advantage vs everyone) versus Marth's (a single 60/40 or 65/35 disadvantage against Sheik, plus 50/50 with the space animals and Falcon) and Fox's (a single 60/40 disadvantage against Falco, 50/50 with Marth and Samus, 55/45 advantage with Sheik) and Falco's (Falco, who has a lot of obscure even matchups and is generally accepted to have the least tournament winning ability of the four).

Overall I think Sheik's pair of 55/45 disadvantages and advantage vs every other character gives her overall the best matchups in the game. Fox can, of course, do a lot back to Sheik but people act like Sheik doesn't have any **** combos on par with his. Or like tech chasing Fox is hard. Or like she can't pressure him to the edge and force him into a gimp like Marth. Her gimping game is definitely on par with Marth's and Fox's. You can B-throw a Fox and then dash off and double jump Nair and cover most of his off-stage options like that. Or B-throw and sh Bair or just WD back fast fall and edgehog and then gimp from there. Sheik has plenty of stuff that gays Fox, just like Marth.
 
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