The 2006-2008 Tier list

[Pakman]

Are there really enough knowledgeable, active melee players to create a new melee SBR? From what I've seen, most of the truly knowledgeable/highly respected opinions in this thread come from a handful of good EC players. M2K seems to be the only truly elite player that has been involved in debating the tier list. While M2K's opinions are obviously very good and very educated, it's still only one person's opinion.

If a new melee SBR were formed, and they made a new tier list, this tier list would be too heavily influenced by M2K's opinions. We need to hear from other top players like PC Chris, Shiz, etc.

M2K consulted top people for his list. He talked about asking for insight on his issues with spacies vs sheik and also that taj convinced him to put MewTwo higher. M2K drove the list but he did consult with others.

 

[Europhoria]

M2K under-rates the hell out of Ganon and DK

 

[otg]

I don't think that Sheik having a 55/45 disadvantage vs the space animals is really that bad. 55/45 is a very small difference. I'd even argue Fox being closer than Falco because Falco's CC and laser game is stupidly good at shutting down Sheik's damage output until about 60%, whereas Fox's main advantage is that he doesn't get owned by Nair out of shield and has real damage out of grab.

Fox is easier as a matchup than Falco is for Sheik. Fox/Sheik is probably closer than 55/45, honestly. If you space aerials, D-smash intelligently (and frequently), space your F-tilt/aerials when he attacks, and know your stuff while tech chasing then it's very manageable.

Out of D-throw you can cover 3/4 of his tech options with U-smash, which is absolutely ridiculous, KDJ used to spam this. It's also very possible to react to Fox teching in place with regrab if you just time it properly and pay very close attention to his animation out of the tech (M2K does this a lot). And then, of course, there's dash attack. Out of D-throw Sheik's tech chase options are ridiculous, some are even borderline guaranteed. If you just wavedash in the direction of their DI and then react, D-smash and Dash Attack cover pretty much anywhere they go. Drephen does this a ton after like 30-50% and it's really good.

Her F-tilt beats Fox's Nair outright if you space. This is so good for shutting his approaches down. I'm pretty sure if you pivot you can grab him through his Nair, too. Which leads to all the ridiculous tech chasing above. Her Fair and Bair cleanly beat his aerial approaches.

If you just space your aerials against Fox when you approach and use A LOT of needles from platforms to help limit his DD game and play aggressively it's very, very close as a matchup. Sheik loses when Fox gets inside her, forces her to do something stupid by shooting her a lot, and gets through the spacing and combos her for like 35-40%. Fox loses when he hits a corner and has nowhere to dash dance to and has to commit to a move, approach into the ****, or commit to a defensive movement (probably onto a platform to try and retreat). Really, you just have to keep a lid on his stupid dash dance and laser crap.

From there, Sheik is also the only character with an advantage on Marth. Her worst matchups have the most balance between close and quantity (two 55/45 disadvantages and from there advantage vs everyone) versus Marth's (a single 60/40 or 65/35 disadvantage against Sheik, plus 50/50 with the space animals and Falcon) and Fox's (a single 60/40 disadvantage against Falco, 50/50 with Marth and Samus, 55/45 advantage with Sheik) and Falco's (Falco, who has a lot of obscure even matchups and is generally accepted to have the least tournament winning ability of the four).

Overall I think Sheik's pair of 55/45 disadvantages and advantage vs every other character gives her overall the best matchups in the game. Fox can, of course, do a lot back to Sheik but people act like Sheik doesn't have any **** combos on par with his. Or like tech chasing Fox is hard. Or like she can't pressure him to the edge and force him into a gimp like Marth. Her gimping game is definitely on par with Marth's and Fox's. You can B-throw a Fox and then dash off and double jump Nair and cover most of his off-stage options like that. Or B-throw and sh Bair or just WD back fast fall and edgehog and then gimp from there. Sheik has plenty of stuff that gays Fox, just like Marth.

Completely agree with this, very good input and it's pretty much how I feel about Sheik in general. The top 3 are all very close but Sheik's ridiculous matchups vs. the whole entire cast are what make her so good.

As for Ganon/DK being underrated, I would say that people are starting to overrate DK. He's really good, no doubt of that, definitely midtier/high mid tier potential. However, he is very close with Ganon/Mario/Samus, so who does he surpass? Doc? He has better winning/gimping tools, and overall has better matchups than Ganon/DK etc.

 

[Europhoria]

I can name you 2 or 3 DKs that can perform at the top level and 0 docs. Doc doesn't have better tools for winning then DK does. DK's a lot better then Samus or Mario.

 

[otg]

I can name you 2 or 3 DKs that can perform at the top level and 0 docs. Doc doesn't have better tools for winning then DK does. DK's a lot better then Samus or Mario.

Doc's just underused nowadays which makes him underrated, he's a much more solid charactr than people give him credit for. DK has new found popularity in the last year or so due to the likes of BUM and what not. Right now he's being used more, so people are starting to push his metagame, but whatever. The mid tier probably has the most controversy, more so than Bottom or Top.

 

[Europhoria]

There's never been a Doc at the top.

 

[otg]

I would say Bob$, Caveman and SmashMac are 3 Docs that are top level or/were very close. Once again, most people use the top 4 now so many former mid tiers mains have moved on. I'd like to know where all the top level DKs there are though, taking national tournaments and what not.

 

[Europhoria]

Argh, I forgot about Caveman's Doc He plays higher tier chars now. Anyways >_> PKMVodka still actively plays and his DK is pimp. He says Mexican is good too so I'll take his word on that. So 1 Doc vs. 2 or 3 DKs?

I dunno about Bum, he hasn't really had any success for like a year and a half now. He hasn't even left NY and seems to have struggled beating like >_> Dark.Pch. I honestly don't think he's good, and I'll never find out cause he's never gonna travel lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Captain Jack used him at high level a long time ago but again we have sort of the Caveman scenario where they move onto another character >__>

Why is it that the best Docs switched to Sheik lawl. Is it because Sheik is Doc on ultra-crack?

 

[otg]

Captain Jack used her at high level a long time ago but again we have sort of the Caveman scenario where they move onto another character >__>

Why is it that the best Docs switched to Sheik lawl. Is it because Sheik is Doc on ultra-crack?

Definitely, Sheik and Doc are somewhat similar. CJ has a really beast Doc, and Caveman was pretty impressive too. I'm telling you though Bob$ and Smashmac should be counted in that list too, Bob$ is 3rd in Nor Cal I believe (behind King and Isai?) and Smashmac is just dope as hell.

Bum just needs to get out, than he'll start pawning.. if he actually starts playing Melee again.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Definitely, Sheik and Doc are somewhat similar. CJ has a really beast Doc, and Caveman was pretty impressive too. I'm telling you though Bob$ and Smashmac should be counted in that list too, Bob$ is 3rd in Nor Cal I believe (behind King and Isai?) and Smashmac is just dope as hell.

Bum just needs to get out, than he'll start pawning.. if he actually starts playing Melee again.

Extremely outdated power rankings are extremely outdated.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm telling you though Bob$ and Smashmac should be counted in that list too

I do not believe SmashMac and/or Bob$ were on the same level as Caveman in his prime (although I could be very mistaken on this).

 

[Europhoria]

If Bum struggles to beat Dark.Pch... well then PKMVodka/Many others will 4 stock with a variety of characters. >_> He needs to travel and show he's better then that

 

[TheManaLord]

If Bum struggles to beat Dark.Pch... well then PKMVodka/Many others will 4 stock with a variety of characters. >_> He needs to travel and show he's better then that

if bum beats isai killafox forward m2k then pmkvodka/many others need to step up

 

[Europhoria]

Yes well the videos of him struggling vs. Dark.Pch date about 7 or 8 months after MLG Long Island aka after everyone learned how to fight DK.

 

[UncleGene]

Dark Pch may not be amazing or might be inconsistent but I think you severely underestimate him.

Plus Bum has accomplished a lot in both New York and at that MLG event, I don't think you can take that away with one set.

 

[Europhoria]

Wow people should get off Bum's **** lol...

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Eastern Canadian smasher thinks PKMVodka is a better DK than Bum

ZOMG what a surprise!

 

[Europhoria]

I think Jagg is better then him too X.X You probably don't even know who that is though.

 

[MaNg0]

puff for top of the mid tier

=D

 

[Dark Hart]

I do not believe SmashMac and/or Bob$ were on the same level as Caveman in his prime (although I could be very mistaken on this).

Bob$ for a long time was considered the best Doctor Mario player in the US, and at one point the whole world. Caveman in his prime didn't play Doc as much as he played Sheik and Falco, tournament wise. SmashMac is a notable Doc player, but he's not on the same level as Bob$, Caveman, or CJ. (No offense to him at all)

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Argh, I forgot about Caveman's Doc He plays higher tier chars now. Anyways >_> PKMVodka still actively plays and his DK is pimp. He says Mexican is good too so I'll take his word on that. So 1 Doc vs. 2 or 3 DKs?

I dunno about Bum, he hasn't really had any success for like a year and a half now. He hasn't even left NY and seems to have struggled beating like >_> Dark.Pch. I honestly don't think he's good, and I'll never find out cause he's never gonna travel lol.

Lol @ Bum not being good. He didn't even come close to losing to Dark.pch either...what are you talking about?

 

[metaXzero]

*sigh* I wish their was still people who used not-High/Top tier characters. Its getting dull once again seeing Fox/Falco/Marth (Though Dashiz vs. M2K was awesome).

I need to find a main for my first tourny...

 

[Grunt]

I've been pimpin out my Luigi/DK/Pichu.
but Marth still is better.

 

[otg]

Extremely outdated power rankings are extremely outdated.

Extremely unnecessary excuse to raise post count is an extremely unnecessary post.

 

[slikvik]

Eastern Canadian smasher thinks PKMVodka is a better DK than Bum

ZOMG what a surprise!

lmao....o canada

 

[Ryan-K]

bum sandbags...seriously. it's not blatant like isai or something but he is extremely clutch. if he doesn't sandbag then he has an extreme knack for comebacks lol...

he'll let himself lose then just come back, he does it all the time. the only time he didn't do this was at like mlg LI or when he faces people like PC where he goes all out the whole match.

alot of people get close to beating bum unless he tries all match. even then he is an extremely clutch player and like always pulls wins out of his ***.

i know it sounds like dickriding but really he is like so good, and you wouldn't understand unless you seen him in person often.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bob$ for a long time was considered the best Doctor Mario player in the US, and at one point the whole world. Caveman in his prime didn't play Doc as much as he played Sheik and Falco, tournament wise. SmashMac is a notable Doc player, but he's not on the same level as Bob$, Caveman, or CJ. (No offense to him at all)

Duly noted.

Although it's becoming more and more apparent that this discussion has drifted from DK's merits as a character vs Doc's merits of a character and has dissolved into a debate on whether or not PKMvodka is better than Bum.

So. Doc has a cape. DK does not have a cape. Discuss.

 

[w!zard]

capes are disadvantageous. have you seen the incredibles?

 

[RDK]

capes Are Disadvantageous. Have You Seen The Incredibles?

^ Lmfao.

Spoiler

(10shotalinks)

 

[KirbyKaze]

capes are disadvantageous. have you seen the incredibles?

I think I love you.

 

[otg]

The cape is wayyyyy too good. It'll get most people before they even get the chance to sweetspot since it hits a little below the edge. Doc's edgeguard game is pretty ridiculous as it is, but the cape makes it 10x better alone.

The only thing that I could see DK having better than Doc is range, that's it. Both of their recoveries suck (Doc's is definitely worse though), both have 0-death cg's against spacies on FD, both have great Bairs (although Doc's might be better for edgeguarding, while DK's is better for racking up damage), both have awesome grab games etc etc....

Here's how I see there differences:

Doc: has a useful projectile, better edgeguarder, faster, more KO moves (Dsmash, Fsmash, Fair, Bair, cape), better shield.

DK: more range, has 2 meteor spikes (although they suck), slightly better recovery (not vertically though).

That's really all I can think of, unless someone can correct me.

 

[Grunt]

That's really all I can think of

You forgot DK being a Pimp.

 

[otg]

You forgot DK being a Pimp.

Oh yeah how could I forget lol. Seriously though, stop spamming and contribute.

 

[slikvik]

DKs upb outta sheild ***** everyone...badly

 

[Pakman]

Dk Combos better. Dk has a guarenteed grab to aerial combo on pretty much every character. Doc requires tech chase and much better timing to combo well.

Dk has much better range and better recovery.

UP+B out of sheild is amazing. DK has a real good pressure game with spaced bairs. Doc's pressure game involves pills.

Honestly the main things DOC has on dk are gimps and his sheild doesn't blow.

I'd much rather be good with DK against a top player than with a doc.

 

[Winston]

Oh yeah how could I forget lol. Seriously though, stop spamming and contribute.

That was a pretty good contribution. I lol'd.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Honestly I don't think the difference in DK's general gimping ability is far from Doc's given that you can just ledgehop Up+B at anyone who tries to come back and be very well protected by invincibility, ledge invincibility, DK's invincible arms, etc.

Cape is certainly a better gimping tool but I don't think it's so good that Doc's gimp game is miles and miles better than DK's. DK's gimping and edgeguarding game is very, very underrated and good. Doc's is probably better, sure, but probably not by enough to justify him being above DK what with DK's range advantage, and superior combo power (with the exception of Doc's chain grab on Sheik and other miscellaneous characters).

 

[TheManaLord]

doc has worst recovery in game

 

[Pakman]

Honestly I don't think the difference in DK's general gimping ability is far from Doc's given that you can just ledgehop Up+B at anyone who tries to come back and be very well protected by invincibility, ledge invincibility, DK's invincible arms, etc.

Cape is certainly a better gimping tool but I don't think it's so good that Doc's gimp game is miles and miles better than DK's. DK's gimping and edgeguarding game is very, very underrated and good. Doc's is probably better, sure, but probably not by enough to justify him being above DK what with DK's range advantage, and superior combo power (with the exception of Doc's chain grab on Sheik and other miscellaneous characters).

I agree with this. The cape is good but it's not good enough to say Doc > DK.