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TFS: Just when I thought I was out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN. **** Melee
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
otg
Smash Master
Wow, lots of discussion since last night. Ok here are my thoughts.
Fox/Falco is even IMO, regardless of stage. On FD Falco has good combos yeah, but guess what? They are even better on platforms, and guess what else? Fox has 0-death CG's on Falco on FD, ouch. Fox does really well with platforms too (just watch KDJ v. PC at MLG Vegas from 2007 and you will see what I'm talking about), so IMO it is not stage dependent as they both thrive on any stage.
Marth/Falcon is evenish, but frankly I think it is in Marth's favor, and Mikael can attest to this. A Marth with good spacing, and the ability to edgeguard well WILL beat Falcon. Frankly it's so easy to combo Falcon as Marth, and there are more Neutral stages overall that benefit Marth over Falcon (BF, YS, FoD, DL, hell even FD). Yea yea yea, I"ve heard it before. All Falcon needs is a grab. Well, good luck getting one. Also did you guys know that Marth can Fair almost ALL of Falcon's follow ups from a grab up until about 70-80%? ouch.
Now as for Falco as a character. Yes on the stage he is probably the best character. Laser control, amazing combos, good priority and power. But he doesn't have many reliable kill moves as opposed to Fox, who can setup for Usmash in a billion different ways. Falco might also be better at handling many matchups than Fox (The Marios/Luigi/various others) but the fact that he can get gimped SOOOO EASILY at ANY percent by ANY character is enough to put him in Mid Tier IMO. Falcos ability to combo Fox to 60% <<<< Fox ****** Falco in general.
Logik, good luck maining Ganon. You know I'm an advocate for Mid tiers, but you're going to have a really hard time keeping up at events like No Johnz. Frankly, I think if you want to use an obscure character that isn't seen a lot, but is good, play someone in High Tier like Ice Climbers or Jigglypuff. No one ****ing uses them and they are both better IMO than Falcon/Peach. Yes I said it. Peach's matchup vs. Fox/Marth is unfair, and everyone uses Falcon so he's easily ***** by Fox/Marth/Sheik (note that I dont list Falco here because frankly, I think Falco/Falcon is even). I know the Falcon matchup like the back of my hand, once you know how to beat him he sucks ***. That just goes to show how big the skill gap between top and high tiers is.
Yedi, I will **** you in Ness dittos. $10 MM? Come down to No Johnz sometime, Tri State ***** you guys. You didn't answer my question earlier, how are you fairing against Neal? If you can't beat him, you will most likely not be able to beat me either, he and I are very close in skill, although he seems to think I'm better than him (I think its the other way around lol)
Good **** Mikael, glad that you are ****** out there. Smash soon? I might be able to come down next thursday, but if for some random reason you decide to come to Chappaqua, we should 100% play. Have you been playing with Tian recently, I want a rematch against him.
Fox/Falco is even IMO, regardless of stage. On FD Falco has good combos yeah, but guess what? They are even better on platforms, and guess what else? Fox has 0-death CG's on Falco on FD, ouch. Fox does really well with platforms too (just watch KDJ v. PC at MLG Vegas from 2007 and you will see what I'm talking about), so IMO it is not stage dependent as they both thrive on any stage.
Marth/Falcon is evenish, but frankly I think it is in Marth's favor, and Mikael can attest to this. A Marth with good spacing, and the ability to edgeguard well WILL beat Falcon. Frankly it's so easy to combo Falcon as Marth, and there are more Neutral stages overall that benefit Marth over Falcon (BF, YS, FoD, DL, hell even FD). Yea yea yea, I"ve heard it before. All Falcon needs is a grab. Well, good luck getting one. Also did you guys know that Marth can Fair almost ALL of Falcon's follow ups from a grab up until about 70-80%? ouch.
Now as for Falco as a character. Yes on the stage he is probably the best character. Laser control, amazing combos, good priority and power. But he doesn't have many reliable kill moves as opposed to Fox, who can setup for Usmash in a billion different ways. Falco might also be better at handling many matchups than Fox (The Marios/Luigi/various others) but the fact that he can get gimped SOOOO EASILY at ANY percent by ANY character is enough to put him in Mid Tier IMO. Falcos ability to combo Fox to 60% <<<< Fox ****** Falco in general.
Logik, good luck maining Ganon. You know I'm an advocate for Mid tiers, but you're going to have a really hard time keeping up at events like No Johnz. Frankly, I think if you want to use an obscure character that isn't seen a lot, but is good, play someone in High Tier like Ice Climbers or Jigglypuff. No one ****ing uses them and they are both better IMO than Falcon/Peach. Yes I said it. Peach's matchup vs. Fox/Marth is unfair, and everyone uses Falcon so he's easily ***** by Fox/Marth/Sheik (note that I dont list Falco here because frankly, I think Falco/Falcon is even). I know the Falcon matchup like the back of my hand, once you know how to beat him he sucks ***. That just goes to show how big the skill gap between top and high tiers is.
Yedi, I will **** you in Ness dittos. $10 MM? Come down to No Johnz sometime, Tri State ***** you guys. You didn't answer my question earlier, how are you fairing against Neal? If you can't beat him, you will most likely not be able to beat me either, he and I are very close in skill, although he seems to think I'm better than him (I think its the other way around lol)
Good **** Mikael, glad that you are ****** out there. Smash soon? I might be able to come down next thursday, but if for some random reason you decide to come to Chappaqua, we should 100% play. Have you been playing with Tian recently, I want a rematch against him.
otg
Smash Master
Double post (Don't give a ****).
I actually have a train ticket into the city which is good for like another 2 or 3 months, so if you give me a time to come down Mikael, I will ****ing be there.
I actually have a train ticket into the city which is good for like another 2 or 3 months, so if you give me a time to come down Mikael, I will ****ing be there.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
wtf fox has more kill moves?? he has like up smash and thats it and maybe u tilt too and u air
falco has the side smash's d smash his d tilt his dair his bair and nair, when comparing vs fox all his moves are stronger except the up moves negro
and yea once you figure out falcon its over =[
and as for falco, hes amazing but like max said, off stage you die, kinda. but thats definately not enough to bring him down to mid like wwwwttttfffffffff
also it depends on where falco 0-60's fox because if you get the fox off the stage-dair-dead
thats like a shine right therrr
like seriously max ive gotten you off the stage at gay low percents and you die because of a few dairs son
falco has the side smash's d smash his d tilt his dair his bair and nair, when comparing vs fox all his moves are stronger except the up moves negro
and yea once you figure out falcon its over =[
and as for falco, hes amazing but like max said, off stage you die, kinda. but thats definately not enough to bring him down to mid like wwwwttttfffffffff
also it depends on where falco 0-60's fox because if you get the fox off the stage-dair-dead
thats like a shine right therrr
like seriously max ive gotten you off the stage at gay low percents and you die because of a few dairs son
ill take the mm lol.
and last time neal and I played he was beating me consistently.
and last time neal and I played he was beating me consistently.
Reaver197
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
- Messages
- 1,287
Well, I have to say, I'm pretty balls in knowing how to handle and fight Marths, so if someone with a lot more experience and credentials than I, like Scar, says that Falcon has an even/possibly good match-up with Marths, I'm probably going to take his word for it.
However, I would personally err on the side of caution and say that, at best, they have an even match-up, depending on what stage they're on and all. So, maybe, overall Marth might have the advantage. However, good Falcons can **** combo Marths from single hits, not necessarily grabs. But, eh, my experience is so limited and my Falcon isn't making headlines or anything, so I'm not at all any sort of authority on this, lol.
I would love to smash soon. Hmm, I wonder, this weekend is a three day weekend, since Monday is off for President's Day. I'll talk around with guys around here and see if we can wrangle up something possibly. I've played with Tian somewhat of late. He'd probably be happy to play against you again. He just has a pretty schedule at the moment, so I can't say when he'll be free to do that.
Edit: Ah, I know it'll probably definitely be under way by 6. The only thing is how they're handling how people get signed in. NYU is kind of gay and limits how many non-NYU people you can sign in, and they already have quite a bit of people to sign in. I'll be seeing them later on, so I'll ask them if they'll be able to accommodate you.
However, I would personally err on the side of caution and say that, at best, they have an even match-up, depending on what stage they're on and all. So, maybe, overall Marth might have the advantage. However, good Falcons can **** combo Marths from single hits, not necessarily grabs. But, eh, my experience is so limited and my Falcon isn't making headlines or anything, so I'm not at all any sort of authority on this, lol.
I would love to smash soon. Hmm, I wonder, this weekend is a three day weekend, since Monday is off for President's Day. I'll talk around with guys around here and see if we can wrangle up something possibly. I've played with Tian somewhat of late. He'd probably be happy to play against you again. He just has a pretty schedule at the moment, so I can't say when he'll be free to do that.
Edit: Ah, I know it'll probably definitely be under way by 6. The only thing is how they're handling how people get signed in. NYU is kind of gay and limits how many non-NYU people you can sign in, and they already have quite a bit of people to sign in. I'll be seeing them later on, so I'll ask them if they'll be able to accommodate you.
S.R. XXVII
Smash Ace
Lol, I was thinking of picking up ICs as a 2md, but they seem so ****ing hard to learn. I do have fun with them though, so that's a big plus.
otg
Smash Master
You are quite mistaken about Fox's kill moves. Fox's better recovery makes his edgeguarding options 100 times better than Falco's. It's similar to the differences between Mario and Doc's Bair; Mario's will flat out KO, but Doc's is better with edgeguarding. All of Fox's smashes can be used to KO, but obviously his Usmash is the best, and at the very least his other two can be used to setup edgeguards or just edgeguard in general.
Besides that, Falco's Dair is obviously a very good killing move... at predominantl high percents. Yeah you can get a gimp in here and there around like 40-50%, but you won't see it flat out KO until higher percents. Fox's shine is pretty much an instant KO off the edge against a VERY large majority of the cast.
I dunno, I think this one goes to Fawkes.
Niko45
Smash Master
I agree with everything except these points:
Falco is not mid tier. Falco is nasty and is accurate on the tier list.
Marth v Falcon is not advantage Marth. The opportunity to fair cfalcon before he follows up (and keep in mind that only works against UP throw), ends at 50%. Falcon can up air at that point. And anyway, if Marth is fairing you away, just wait for the fair and death combo punish.
Marth can't simply out space cfalcon. Even as basic an approach as flying at marth with short hop nair works bc it covers the length of his dash dance and if he shields land behind. Falcon is sick at maneuvering on platforms and WILL beat you if you try to challenge stomp through platforms with up tilt.
CFalcon actually edgeguards marth better than the reverse. If Marth has to up B he is dead no joke. Reset invincibility, marth up B's through you on to stage, ledge hop reverse knee good night. Cfalcon recovering high can get back vs marth and low as well as long as he sweet spots his double jumps and ledge techs fsmash.
In general you can't rely on outspacing a character with more mobility than you when your moves all lag so much (relatively). As marth you need to catch him as he comes at you in order to get in so you basically need to bait and get lucky
You can **** cfalcon once he's at like 40%. Marth gets ***** from 0.
Falco is not mid tier. Falco is nasty and is accurate on the tier list.
Marth v Falcon is not advantage Marth. The opportunity to fair cfalcon before he follows up (and keep in mind that only works against UP throw), ends at 50%. Falcon can up air at that point. And anyway, if Marth is fairing you away, just wait for the fair and death combo punish.
Marth can't simply out space cfalcon. Even as basic an approach as flying at marth with short hop nair works bc it covers the length of his dash dance and if he shields land behind. Falcon is sick at maneuvering on platforms and WILL beat you if you try to challenge stomp through platforms with up tilt.
CFalcon actually edgeguards marth better than the reverse. If Marth has to up B he is dead no joke. Reset invincibility, marth up B's through you on to stage, ledge hop reverse knee good night. Cfalcon recovering high can get back vs marth and low as well as long as he sweet spots his double jumps and ledge techs fsmash.
In general you can't rely on outspacing a character with more mobility than you when your moves all lag so much (relatively). As marth you need to catch him as he comes at you in order to get in so you basically need to bait and get lucky
You can **** cfalcon once he's at like 40%. Marth gets ***** from 0.
otg
Smash Master
My point about Falco being midtier was an exageration for dramatic effect. I don't think he belongs in the Top Tier, but his placement as 4th is definitely correct.
As for Falcon/Marth analysis, most of what I listed is just what I've experienced. I don't think Marth has a large advantage, I would say its either even or 55/45 Marth, but this is IMO. I'm pretty sure Marth can Fair out of Dthrow as well, maybe that's only at higher percents though. I agree that it's not practical to Fair immediately after a throw everytime, that's asking to get *****. Instead you have to predict Falcon's reaction after throws, and if he decides to rush you down immediately, Fair works.
Besides that, I'm not 100% on the rest of your analysis of the matchup, once again this is just from my experience. I can't think of the last time my Marth lost to Falcon, but once again my experiences do not matchup to the metagame as a whole.
The one thing I will note though, is that to get Falcon into **** %'s (around the 40's) tech chasing is 100% the way to go. Falcon's tech game is awful and Marth is amazing at tech chasing and punishing.
I want to get more Exp. in the matchup, so I'll go Marth vs. Falcon from now on. It's a **** or get ***** matchup which is what makes it so good. The one thing I disagree with you on Niko is that Falcon has better edgeguarding than Marth. If Falcon is off the stage, a good Marth will make sure he does not make it back, at any %. Falcon's recovery is incredibly linear and has less options than Marth who can at least fight back as he recovers.
Mikael I think you have my home number. My cell is 914 629 4745
As for Falcon/Marth analysis, most of what I listed is just what I've experienced. I don't think Marth has a large advantage, I would say its either even or 55/45 Marth, but this is IMO. I'm pretty sure Marth can Fair out of Dthrow as well, maybe that's only at higher percents though. I agree that it's not practical to Fair immediately after a throw everytime, that's asking to get *****. Instead you have to predict Falcon's reaction after throws, and if he decides to rush you down immediately, Fair works.
Besides that, I'm not 100% on the rest of your analysis of the matchup, once again this is just from my experience. I can't think of the last time my Marth lost to Falcon, but once again my experiences do not matchup to the metagame as a whole.
The one thing I will note though, is that to get Falcon into **** %'s (around the 40's) tech chasing is 100% the way to go. Falcon's tech game is awful and Marth is amazing at tech chasing and punishing.
I want to get more Exp. in the matchup, so I'll go Marth vs. Falcon from now on. It's a **** or get ***** matchup which is what makes it so good. The one thing I disagree with you on Niko is that Falcon has better edgeguarding than Marth. If Falcon is off the stage, a good Marth will make sure he does not make it back, at any %. Falcon's recovery is incredibly linear and has less options than Marth who can at least fight back as he recovers.
Mikael I think you have my home number. My cell is 914 629 4745
gkrackerr
Smash Ace
When you say falcon's tech game is awful are you referring to the options he has when teching, or the options he has for following up a tech? If it's the former then I'll agree with you somewhat, but for the ladder I will flat out say you're wrong.
Falcon's initial dash and speed cover so much distance it's insane, and that alone allows him to punish people in so many ways. After a grab or knockdown, falcon can come in and dair to pop back up, tech chase into a re-grab or knee, jab reset, follow with a nair/single nair into regrab or w/e, or raptor boost to follow you. He's legitimately one of the best characters in terms of tech chasing...
otg
Smash Master
I'm talking about when Falcon is getting tech chased. His tech is slow and doesn't go that far, so it's easily readable. I know his tech chasing game against other people is insane, but he gets ***** by tech chasing.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
the answer is easily dont tech, i remember someone said that, i think scar...exactly on marth vs falcon, ill find it
found itt
found itt
Niko45
Smash Master
It is not hard for cfalcon to get grabs against marth either. Idk if you watch like pc vs m2k MLG long island there are two vids of PC bodying m2k's marth with cfalcon. You're not right about good marth's making sure cfalcon never comes back bc all the great marth's I see fighting cfalcon don't seem able to gimp him so reliably. If the Cfalcon initially doesn't DI correctly and tries to recover from a bad angle than yes fsmash will kill them but otherwise if cfalcon is up Bing so that he is getting to or nearly getting to the top platform marth isn't going to keep him off. If Marth needs to up B he should be dead you just ledge stall and then come up with reverse knee.
Again I would like to emphasize that Marth has 0 safe approaches in this fight and needs to catch falcon coming in to get the grabs and up tilts he wants. There's a reason you really don't see marth vs cfalcon in tournament anymore and it's because a) cfalcon players never play other characters and b) marth players always play other characters that do much better vs cfalcon. Cactuar initially picked up fox in order to deal with cfalcon as my understanding goes. Falcon is 2nd best in the game vs. Marth.
Also in that same set at MLG LI m2k goes fox after getting wrecked and destroys pc's falcon right back. We all know fox is great against cfalcon but I mean if marth is really 55/45 on cfalcon fox must be like 75/25 or better to be swinging the results that drastically. I've never had a problem fighting marth with cfalcon and if I lose to a marth with cfalcon shame on me I need to get better.
Again I would like to emphasize that Marth has 0 safe approaches in this fight and needs to catch falcon coming in to get the grabs and up tilts he wants. There's a reason you really don't see marth vs cfalcon in tournament anymore and it's because a) cfalcon players never play other characters and b) marth players always play other characters that do much better vs cfalcon. Cactuar initially picked up fox in order to deal with cfalcon as my understanding goes. Falcon is 2nd best in the game vs. Marth.
Also in that same set at MLG LI m2k goes fox after getting wrecked and destroys pc's falcon right back. We all know fox is great against cfalcon but I mean if marth is really 55/45 on cfalcon fox must be like 75/25 or better to be swinging the results that drastically. I've never had a problem fighting marth with cfalcon and if I lose to a marth with cfalcon shame on me I need to get better.
I picked up Fox for teams play actually. My Marth was really good vs Falcon back in the day.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
=O bring in m2k lol but nah
also something that would also solve the edgegaurding problem would be learning to tech>instant up b...
i do it sometimes, but im kinda bad at teching...but like jiano does it, it *****.
lol you said cactuar and he came..its amazing
also something that would also solve the edgegaurding problem would be learning to tech>instant up b...
i do it sometimes, but im kinda bad at teching...but like jiano does it, it *****.
lol you said cactuar and he came..its amazing
Niko45
Smash Master
I just remember reading a topic where m2k said it was 60/40 Falcon and he referenced a crew battle where Jiano multi-stocked Azen on FD. I even think 60/40 might be a bit harsh but advantage marth is just out of the question imo.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
well it depends on what level.. max is better then me when i play falcon.. so he beat me alot with his marth, but i still got off some nice combos here and there, but still lost. your falcon is probly a good amount better then mine, cuz your just smarter i guess, and so you could probly take him.
but with both players at an equal skill level, falcon is definitely up
but with both players at an equal skill level, falcon is definitely up
otg
Smash Master
Word, like I said my knowledge on the matchup is not 100%, I know people have said that it's in Falcon's favor, I just disagree. Also, to my knowledge Niko, I'm pretty sure your Falcon didn't beat my Marth the last time we played, and I can't think of a time before that where I've lost to Falcon w/ Marth except maybe vs. Mikael. For the most part though, my Marth does very well vs. Mikael's Falcon though, maybe even better than with my Fox.
Like I said though (I feel like a broken record), it's all imo. If anything I would say it's even and stage dependent, because many of the neutral stages are awful for Falcon vs. Marth.
Like I said though (I feel like a broken record), it's all imo. If anything I would say it's even and stage dependent, because many of the neutral stages are awful for Falcon vs. Marth.
S.R. XXVII
Smash Ace
Okay Guys. I'm most likely gonna be in VA for this coming week. So you'll see less of me than you already do, lol.
Niko45
Smash Master
Stadium is great, DL is great, FD is great, Battlefield is fine, ban FoD, and Yoshi's is Yoshi's. I remember winning 1 we didn't play very many in that matchup but yea I def lost majority. My falcon kinda sucks.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
ugh i hate stadium...when the stage changes to any of the forms im like nooo cuz then i just get aped all over it...i dont know why... well thats just with falcon, with falco its alot better for me..FoD is not that bad to ban i dont think, well to me..i do alright there..yoshis is my stage, i loooveee it,
i remember one time max was like"you like yoshis dont you? im scared to fight you there" lol
i think i like it just because ive seen scar +ss do such **** things on it.
but DL and FD are awesome too..
other then that nick if your falcon sucks mine is like freakin pathetic lolol
i remember one time max was like"you like yoshis dont you? im scared to fight you there" lol
i think i like it just because ive seen scar +ss do such **** things on it.
but DL and FD are awesome too..
other then that nick if your falcon sucks mine is like freakin pathetic lolol
S.R. XXVII
Smash Ace
Wow. **** is so weird. Guess I'm not going to VA after all.
Niko45
Smash Master
I like stadium it's like a mini-FD but yea when the stage changes you gotta get much more campy and cautious. I also love that knee kills off the top there sometimes lol. Nah I'm sure ur falcon isn't far behind me Jona I heard ur getting mad good but my CF just doesn't do as well as my other 2 for some reason. Max was really beasting on my CF with fox that day which I don't care matchups and tiers are no excuses I gotta step it up.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
werd the stadium is fine, but the changes are just gay. and idk about my falcon man, i lost alot of confidence in it. but like you said i guess all i can do i step it up if i wanna compete with him. step step step it upp lol
otg
Smash Master
Matchups play a big role in this game, that is a fact. I'd like to think I could step up my Doc enough to compete with PC and all the marths in the world, but it just ain't gonna happen, too many faults within the character himself. Falcon is the same way, against Fox/Sheik he gets ***** and you have to be MUCH better than your opponent to win with him. If you want to beat my Fox with Falcon you're going to have to become much better than me in general, and if that is the case it doesn't matter who you use.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
well all i really have to do is get better at tech chasing and your dead max lol
i need to be like ss and darkrain and read minds..its kinda hard tho, you need quick reaction..i just need more practice at it.
i need to be like ss and darkrain and read minds..its kinda hard tho, you need quick reaction..i just need more practice at it.
Reaver197
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
- Messages
- 1,287
Ugh, sorry for taking so long getting back to you, but I was trying to see how many people were coming and how much of an issue it would be to sign people in. It seems that a lot of people are coming, more than they expected, and they might be maxed out with how many people they have signed in.
Niko45
Smash Master
Mikael I actually saw a FB where chris thought I was going but sadly I'm not...I'm sick as a dog. Maybe Max could get my spot?
S.R. XXVII
Smash Ace
I Gots Mah Permit Nukkuh!
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
yay you get to drive with your moms for 6 months!!! WOOOO
lmao
lmao
S.R. XXVII
Smash Ace
Lol, all part of the process...
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
yea i know....thats the worst part of it lol
otg
Smash Master
So my Falcon is sexy
gkrackerr
Smash Ace
who's going to alu's thing?
otg
Smash Master
I would really like to, and it's shaping up to be insane. If mango actually comes this could be epic with potential people who might show up, so we should make a concerted effort to go.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
im definitly trying hard to go to that ish son
mango <3
mango <3