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Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
2,599
Location
Toronto, Ontario
What's the reasoning behind this? I've tried it before and I'm trying it now and I still don't like it. For example; I just read "Things people should do less" and it has 40 posts, literally. I went in there just now and ended up reading about 12 posts before I figured out only one new post had been made and it was pretty useless. I'd rather press last page and read check the first post to see if I need to go farther back or continue on. 15 is weird though and 10's too short, although I heard fly amanita uses it to keep track of posts per page. Page 5=posts 51-60, not sure what that does for anyone though.

I think 20 is the best option but what the **** do I know? :p
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Jarrettsville, MD
Look above your name, Krisp.

Click "View First Unread."

Problem solved.


Though I guess if you're not on 40ppp it probably isn't right above your avatar... It's at the top of the page, or the little arrow next to the thread if you're looking through it from the main forum. Switch to Smash Blue while you're at it. Clearly superior.
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Toronto, Ontario
Shut up bones, you and your logic. But that was what I was looking for, an actual reason to use 40ppp, now my 20 seems pointless.
 

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Location
Oregon
Viable is: Capable of winning a national. It has nothing to do with actually have won a national. As such, the actual break point of viable/non-viable is entirely opinion. It is possible for a character to drop from viable to non-viable over time due to metagame progression, as well as a character to rise from non-viable to viable.
Any character is capable of winning a national. Your definition of "viable" is useless because it doesn't address probabilities. A Pichu main could win a national if he's the best player in the world. It's not something that's very likely, obviously, but the probability is nonzero. So you could define "viable" as in "a character X is viable if the probability of X winning a national in the next year is greater than Y." But then there's the problem of choosing the value of Y. Whatever you choose, it will be completely arbitrary.
 

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
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Hey man, I agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem is that most of the community sees otherwise. In my opinion, if you learn to handle these stages properly, they become fun, the same way you learn to enjoy (or at least tolerate) matchups that suck (e.g. playing against Jigglypuff or Falco).

The community's trend is a scrubby one, and it always has been. Players decide they don't like something, so they ban it. Some of them will be explicit and just ban things because they are disliked (an obvious slippery slope), but others will explain why they dislike it and ban it for reasons other than brokenness. Such is the way of the scrub.

"It's unfair that I have to learn the timing of Rainbow Cruise in order to fight there."

Don't get me wrong. Some things are broken and worth banning. Some, in fact, are very obviously worth banning (Hyrule, for example). But most of the bans are just "I don't like that stage."
I always had more fun CPing stages like Poke Floats and Rainbow Cruise, not because "OMG moving screen, awesomez" but because other people constantly whined about it, and it amused me. And in my admittedly limited experience, I never felt like PF or RC gave me a huge advantage. I seemed to perform about the same on that stage as I did on some of the "neutrals." Granted I'm not a top 1% player, but most of us aren't.

I think the logic people have used in this thread for removing stages is highly suspect. I didn't read the entire thing but from the first 10 or so pages (out of 63 atm) I basically saw two arguments for banning them.

1) Stage X has random elements that can be a determining factor in matchups, and this is BAD. I'll agree for the sake of argument that randomness is bad. Well, why don't we go ahead and ban FoD, YS, and DL? Invariably the response is something like "We don't want to end up with 1 or 2 stages" which is suspect because if 1 or 2 stages is bad, why is 6 stages not bad? Do people not realize the cutoff is arbitrary? Or it's something like "The randomness on these stages is not as bad as on banned stage X, so they shouldn't be banned." While this may be true, the argument is suspect because people are appealing to a standard of randomness that has never been presented. What is the randomness threshold that is acceptable? Without some kind of standards for the amount of acceptable randomness, any decisions will be arbitrary.

2) Stage X gives character Y too much of an advantage. The problem with this argument should be self-evident, but evidently it's not, so I'll elaborate. What exactly is "too much of an advantage"? It's never defined. It also presupposes that there is a Correct Matchup Chart. For instance (I'm making these numbers up, their values are really not the point) Fox v. Marth is 50/50 and any stage that makes it worse than 60/40 should be banned. And the judgment that 65/35 is unacceptable is based on a conception of fairness that already presupposes which stages (and hence which matchup percentages) are acceptable, which is completely circular. Fox is the best character in the game, and players can deal with this by playing other top tier characters or Fox, playing even better with lower ranked characters, or by changing the rules in order to make the game more "fair." This last option is a classic scrub mentality, and it seems to be what the MBR has embraced.

If there were a hypothetical stage called Perfectland with no jankyness, platforms at just the right levels, sides just so wide, depth and height just right, all in such a way that on average, the stage did not benefit any particular character, then the mentality that has been applied here would dictate, "Ban every other stage and just play on Perfectland, that way the best player can always win, and no character has an advantage." And even though SSBM doesn't have a Perfectland, there seem to be quite a few players who want Battlefield to be the only stage available, and if present trends continue, I'm sure it eventually will be. It won't stop people from complaining about the wonky edges, though, and dreaming of Perfectland.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
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Messages
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I spent some forty pages trying to tell people that their decisions are arbitrary. Trust me, I get it. And yes, I also think that we will eventually see "Battlefield only" as the ruleset because people rationalize their scrubbiness however they can in order to make the game conform to their preference. The reality is that people want what they want, and no amount of argument is going to reverse a community-wide trend towards allowing scrubby justification for stage bans.
 

_eternal

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187
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Out of curiosity, are any current or past tournament-legal stages actually random, or are they just timed (like Randall on YS)?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Many have random elements. Rainbow Cruise and Pokefloats arent random. Brinstar is semi random -- there is a pattern but the exact timing and precise height of lava is not consistent. Mute City is not random, besides the cars which are. The barrel on Kongo Jungle 64 is random, though the platforms move in a pattern (obviously).


Is there a specific stage you were curious about?
 

_eternal

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Thanks. What about FoD's platforms and DL's wind? Just trying to figure out which stages were banned for randomness versus character advantage I guess. I know a Peach player who used to like Poke Floats and memorized the timing for it so I figured that one wasn't random.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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To my knowledge FoD is random.

Dreamland's wind may be on a timer, I would have to test that (i'll do it now and post results). I have read some stuff that suggests that the direction of the wind has something to do with the players (if both players are on the left, it will blow to the left 100%) and i think it was hypothesized that port priority breaks the tie.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
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Both are random; based on what frame you start the game but yeah that's random.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhU_lGEX6pgVdEgwZW45X2Y0SHVhV21CMklsNHREYmc
(google f'd up the relative times and converted them to some small decimal number... i can fix if anyone cares...)

I measured for 10 minutes the distance between the tree puckering his lips to gust. I was using name entry glitch and unlimited time to have only 1 player, and it should be noted that he gusted in the same direction every time.

The average time between each wind gust was 20.429 seconds with a variance of approximately ±5 seconds.

Therefore, the wind on dreamland is similar to the lava on brinstar: it follows a general pattern of blowing every 20 seconds, but it does vary between a certain range of times. The direction it blows is related to the locations of the players on the screen.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
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Any character is capable of winning a national. Your definition of "viable" is useless because it doesn't address probabilities. A Pichu main could win a national if he's the best player in the world. It's not something that's very likely, obviously, but the probability is nonzero. So you could define "viable" as in "a character X is viable if the probability of X winning a national in the next year is greater than Y." But then there's the problem of choosing the value of Y. Whatever you choose, it will be completely arbitrary.
Your problem is that you are thinking in terms of possibility and not in terms of what is real. Tier lists are not a static thing. They change in response to developments in the metagame, not in response to hypothetical scenarios. In the current scene, no bowser player is capable of winning a national with only bowser. Therefor, bowser is non-viable. If there one day is a bowser who reaches the skill level necessary to win a national, the tier list will be changed in response to that.

Tier lists are not about "character x hypothetically could win if player a was at Z skill level". Its about "right now, the results of tournament play have shown these characters to be good or bad".
 

Shai Hulud

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Your problem is that you are thinking in terms of possibility and not in terms of what is real. Tier lists are not a static thing. They change in response to developments in the metagame, not in response to hypothetical scenarios. In the current scene, no bowser player is capable of winning a national with only bowser. Therefor, bowser is non-viable. If there one day is a bowser who reaches the skill level necessary to win a national, the tier list will be changed in response to that.

Tier lists are not about "character x hypothetically could win if player a was at Z skill level". Its about "right now, the results of tournament play have shown these characters to be good or bad".
In this post you are defining "viable" empirically, based on whether "results of tournament play have shown these characters to be good or bad." And since national tournaments are bigger and the skill level is higher, it seems logical that this implies the results of national tournaments are of primary importance. Yet on the previous page (post 2448) you said this:

Viable is: Capable of winning a national. It has nothing to do with actually have won a national. As such, the actual break point of viable/non-viable is entirely opinion. It is possible for a character to drop from viable to non-viable over time due to metagame progression, as well as a character to rise from non-viable to viable.
Here you say "viable" has nothing to do with having won a national, and by extension nothing to do with tournament results. "Viable" is not based on empirical tournament results but is based on opinion. Obviously this definition of "viable" flatly contradicts the definition given in the post above.

So I think I've figured out the real definition of "viable," and it's this:

Viable: Whatever Cactuar says it means at any given moment.
 

Bones0

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The tier/viable discussion should stop because attempts to balance the game shouldn't be affecting rule sets anyway. Items make Pichu more viable. Should we add them in too?
 

Kal

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I'm not understanding the negative reaction. "Viable" is obviously going to be a subjective idea, since it's never the case that you have a character who literally cannot win a national tournament. So you're forced to either accept some arbitrary list of characters deemed "viable," or accept some arbitrary cutoff for what probability of success precludes a character from being "unviable."

Cactuar's mistake was addressing the point at all. His response should have been "yes, the distinction between viable and nonviable is somewhat arbitrary, though empirically justifiable."

And Shai, having nothing to do with having won a national does not extend to having nothing to do with tournament results. Rather, we don't say C. Falcon is unviable because we see that it's entirely within the realm of reasonable possibility that he can win a national tournament, based on results. However, he has not recently won any national tournaments. In other words, when Cactuar says "it is entirely opinion," this does not mean he thinks his opinion is reached without the use of results. Quite the contrary, I'm sure.

And, while I agree with you, Bones, that balance (outside of what is explicitly broken) should not impact the ruleset, given that it's already been used by at least some members of the MBR, I think you're arguing a moot point.
 

Cactuar

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Meh, my two statements don't contradict each other. You are making an incorrect assumption regarding the "by extension nothing to do with tournament results", and you unfortunately based your claim of contradiction on your assumption, not on my statements. It has nothing to do with actually winning a tournament. Opinion is affected by information pulled from tournament results. The more often a character makes it further in a tournament, the more likely they will get opportunities to win, and the higher the scene's view on that character will be.



Every time I approach a conversation, I do it from scratch and I express what I'm thinking in the moment. If it contradicts, it means my thoughts have changed from the last time I had the conversation. Usually, I just approach the same answer from different angles, as I feel happens here.
 

Shai Hulud

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Meh, my two statements don't contradict each other. You are making an incorrect assumption regarding the "by extension nothing to do with tournament results", and you unfortunately based your claim of contradiction on your assumption, not on my statements. It has nothing to do with actually winning a tournament. Opinion is affected by information pulled from tournament results. The more often a character makes it further in a tournament, the more likely they will get opportunities to win, and the higher the scene's view on that character will be.
I don't particularly care about definitions of viability so I probably won't comment about this again. I am, however, a stickler for logic. Regardless of whether I misinterpreted you when I said "by extension nothing to do with tournament results," you have claimed that viable "has nothing to do with actually winning a tournament" and then you say "opinion is affected by information pulled from tournament results." I don't think I'm out of line here assuming you believe the definition of viable is affected by tournament results. So,

The definition of viable is affected by tournament results.
A character winning a tournament is a tournament result (and an important one).
Since a character winning a tournament is a tournament result, and since tournament results affect the definition of viable, it follows that a character winning a tournament affects the definition of viable.
Yet you said the definition has absolutely nothing to do with whether a character has won a tournament. Therefore a character winning a tournament doesn't affect the definition of viable.

This is obviously a contradiction. What are you saying, that the definition is affected by tournament results, such as lower place finishes, but not by first place finishes? This is clearly nonsense, and I'm sure you'll revise your statements or claim I misinterpreted you, but going from what you have actually said, your statements are contradictory.

Every time I approach a conversation, I do it from scratch and I express what I'm thinking in the moment. If it contradicts, it means my thoughts have changed from the last time I had the conversation. Usually, I just approach the same answer from different angles, as I feel happens here.
Yet you always feel you are right. So if Infallable Past Cactuar says something and then Infallable Future Cactuar says something contradictory, how is a noob like me supposed to know what to believe? :(
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
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I have to correct so many problems with how you have yourself set up here...

In your first post directed at this, you quoted in bold my statement of "right now, the results of tournament play have shown these characters to be good or bad". You then respond with a set of logic about what I am defining.

First of all, I am talking about tier lists in what you bolded. I am not talking about the viable/non-viable split. These are different concepts, as one asks the question "how good is this character when compared with the rest of the characters?" while the other asks "can this character win a tournament?"

You don't realize that, while I talk about a character's viable/non-viable position in that text, I am actually using that as an analogy to how the positions of a tier list are flexible. The entire bit of you stating that I am "defining "viable" empirically is incorrect because I am defining "tier lists" empirically in that segment.

You then compared my statements about tier lists to a much older post I made about how we determine viable/nonviable, in which I said "It has nothing to do with actually have(having*) won a national." This statement simply says that a character can be considered viable without having actually won a national.


Sooooooo. Your argument is invalid because you are saying that the statements I made about the definition of viable are inconsistent based on statements I later made about tier lists.



Oh I almost forgot...

If I do end up saying something contradictory to something I have said in the past, that means information I have received in the meantime has swayed my position. I talk with confidence in my position because I believe that I am correct based on what information I currently have. I willingly accept new information and, if that information is valid, I change my position. This doesn't make me inconsistent. It is just me learning. Would you rather I kept one position forever? I don't understand your complaint here really...

Regardless of anything I say ever, you shouldn't be taking it as some infallible word. I am not all knowing. I am just another dude who plays smash. Everything anyone says should be independently researched. I don't consider my own opinions to be infallible. Why are you?


I think "What Kal said earlier" is going to be my response going forward.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
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This statement simply says that a character can be considered viable without having actually won a national.
This is why I find it sort of funny that Shai is getting so worked up over the "logic" of your post. We're using informal language, which means there will be ambiguity. To me, the statement

has nothing to do with actually winning a tournament
just indicates that a character can potentially be viable without winning a national (which is an obvious requirement, since otherwise we wouldn't have enough nationals per year to make more than two or three characters viable anyway). The ambiguity is the crux of this entire argument, honestly. It's not as though Cactuar is actually going to dismiss a Yoshi player winning a national as irrelevant. It's obviously relevant.

This can all be settled with Cactuar agreeing that his distinction between viable and nonviable is arbitrary, though empirically justified, and Shai replying with "well, I don't like that." To which you're a little late to the party, Shai, since I've already barked up that tree for 40 pages.

I think "What Kal said earlier" is going to be my response going forward.
Now I can insert subtle hints suggesting that we should have Rainbow Cruise legal again.
 

FerrishTheFish

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It's not as though Cactuar is actually going to dismiss a Yoshi player winning a national as irrelevant. It's obviously relevant.
It would be ridiculously epic if Angel or Vman took a national by developing counter-strategies and overcoming bad MUs in order to beat any or all of Mango, M2K, Armada, Hbox, and/or Dr. PP (in no particular order). Yoshi would insta-D-tier--possibly even C-tier or B-tier--in the blink of an eye.

I do appreciate Cactuar acknowledging that sometimes he makes mistakes and/or changes his mind based on new information. Yeah, I see the apparent contradiction in Cactuar's statements, but changing your mind based on new information is called "responsible," not "shameful" or "deceitful." It annoys me to no end when, for example, people bash election candidates for changing their stances on minor issues in response to the opinions of the people they are supposed to be representing: a representative who changes his stance all the time to reflect the opinions of his constituents would in fact be a theoretically perfect representative.
 

Mahone

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I spent some forty pages trying to tell people that their decisions are arbitrary. Trust me, I get it. And yes, I also think that we will eventually see "Battlefield only" as the ruleset because people rationalize their scrubbiness however they can in order to make the game conform to their preference. The reality is that people want what they want, and no amount of argument is going to reverse a community-wide trend towards allowing scrubby justification for stage bans.
I don't think the justification is "scrubby", just realistic.... Sure, I would prefer more randomness in the stages because i do think it adds some depth...

but when you have people like Armada coming to the us, dropping like $2000 bucks or some **** for a tournament, i think its more than reasonable to have a ruleset with very little to no randomness...

At the locals in Nova, some of the counterpicks like brinstar and corneria are still on and thats fine for locals, but i think that nationals and internationals should have more neutral stagelists
 

Kal

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I'd agree if the impact were anything significant (like items-on gameplay, for example, where the variance is pretty ridiculous). However, I think you're fooling yourself if you think "randomness" is the real justification for these bans. If Brinstar's lava were on a timer, it would still be banned, because the community has decided that everything that isn't a flat, non-moving stage that looks similar to Battlefield should be banned. If something can interrupt your combos, it should be banned.

Rainbow Cruise is banned and it has no elements of randomness at all. Less than Fountain of Dreams, Dreamland and Pokémon Stadium. The justification, or at least the criteria, becomes vague enough that "this is what we don't like about the game" becomes the effective justification for banning anything.

I just find it terribly amusing how often people just avoid to be realistic about it and just bite the bullet about being scrubs. They just want to ruleset to mirror their image of what the game "ought to be," but they are so intellectually dishonest about it. Nonsense like "it's just that Smash should be player vs. player. If the stage can hurt you, that's player vs. player vs. stage" is used to hide the reality that this community's majority actually just expects their subjective preference to be the ruleset.

People who are intellectually honest reach at least logical conclusions based on their criteria (even if I don't agree with said criteria). Cactuar, for example, thinks Final Destination should be banned, which falls in line with his opinions. Hax thinks everything but Battlefield should be banned, which is the logical extension of the justification used to reach the current ruleset. Kish Prime has a ruleset that logically follows from the criteria he puts forward. But the rest of the community is hardly so intellectually honest. Most of them just state their distaste for whatever stages and decide that they must be banned.

So yes, the justification is scrubby.
 

Kal

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Oh yeah, Fox totally hard counters everyone there. I'm sure that's true, and that is why it was banned. Not because the community thinks the stage is "janky."
 

Mahone

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@Kal

I guess we have just had different experiences, I have rarely heard someone just say they wanted a stage banned because it moves or because they don't like it, of course those people exist, but i have heard plenty of reasonable explanations for why certain stages should be banned.

I also always thought people use randomness too strictly... for example, if on yoshis you get peach fthrown as fox at high percent, but you smashdi off a group of shyguys offstage and live when you otherwise would have died, thats pretty random...

that might be a bad example cuz idk if the shyguys are random, but even if they weren't/aren't, you get the point
 

Bones0

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It's pretty arrogant to suggest most players aren't just thinking along the same lines as Cactuar. People will give different reasons why RC and Brinstar should be banned, but they all almost boil down to "those stages interfere with the players," which is the same thing Cactuar says. Competition (and fighting games specifically) is about one player beating the snot out of another player, not about avoiding a stage hazard until your opponent dies from it.

Shy guys are random.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Oh yeah, Fox totally hard counters everyone there. I'm sure that's true, and that is why it was banned. Not because the community thinks the stage is "janky."
Ummm, yeah, actually.


Also, Kal, why get all over people's nuts for using casual terminology. "Random" doesn't necessarily mean the stage itself is random, but that its presence makes the results of the match inconsistent.
 

Bones0

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Ummm, yeah, actually.


Also, Kal, why get all over people's nuts for using casual terminology. "Random" doesn't necessarily mean the stage itself is random, but that its presence makes the results of the match inconsistent.
I tried to explain this. He wasn't buying it. :/
 

Kal

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Sveet, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong about Rainbow Cruise if you can demonstrate that Fox actually dominates too much there. Lately, there has been a tendency to think any hard counters automatically make a stage too imbalanced, which is why I'm skeptical that Rainbow Cruise is broken.

With regards to "randomness," I'm not trying to be a stickler for formalities here. I just don't see any other interpretation of what Mahone meant. You have to be careful. "Consistent" results hinge on various definitions, and it sounds like you may be going for a circular argument. You're going to need to elaborate on what exactly you mean here.

Bones, as usual, I appreciate the useless input. Especially the part where you state your opinion and grossly oversimplify the competitive aspects of a stage.

Mahone, I don't mean that they explicitly say that they want these stages banned and that's the end of it. But, for the most part, it's this, and that players hide behind pretend arguments they come up with, a la Bones' nonsensical "it's player vs. player, not player vs. player vs. stage" argument. No one gets to dictate what constitutes a "real" fighting game, and all stages necessitate a "player vs. player vs. stage" element. But this argument is used, in my opinion, because players dislike the stage and they cling to whatever argument they can in the hopes of seeing it banned.

Edit: I think I'm getting the distinction you guys are making. The thing is that there isn't really any "randomness" here. When it's so difficult to predict that it becomes effectively random, I have no problem addressing it in the same vein. But, in my opinion, Rainbow Cruise and Pokéfloats hardly fall under that definition of "effectively random."
 

Bones0

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If you actually read my post, it wasn't about the competitive aspects of stages or even about my opinion of them. It was about how you assume everyone just bans whatever they want and then rationalizes it afterwards. You praise Cactuar for having consistent logic, but when other players make arguments that essentially the same, you dismiss them because they are just being scrubby. Cactuar was the one who originally articulated his position into player vs. player, but as soon as I mention it, it's a crazy nonsensical argument used to maliciously get rid of stages I just don't like for unrelated reasons.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Sveet, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong about Rainbow Cruise if you can demonstrate that Fox actually dominates too much there. Lately, there has been a tendency to think any hard counters automatically make a stage too imbalanced, which is why I'm skeptical that Rainbow Cruise is broken.
That depends entirely on your definition of "too hard". I can tell you that the MBR has played the stage extensively and individually a majority of us considered fox to dominate there.

With regards to "randomness," I'm not trying to be a stickler for formalities here. I just don't see any other interpretation of what Mahone meant. You have to be careful. "Consistent" results hinge on various definitions, and it sounds like you may be going for a circular argument. You're going to need to elaborate on what exactly you mean here.
Sometimes it doesn't matter if something is on a timer to be "random". If randall the cloud comes out as im edgehogging, allowing my opponent to grab edge and thus live, that is "random". Yoshi's isn't banned for a few reasons, mostly because its one of the best stages in the game and the cloud doesn't have a significant effect on results. When the same principles occur with stage hazards, the effect of the inconsistency is much more severe. Honestly, I think brinstar would be a more competitive stage if it had lava at the bottom at all times (or at any height, as long as it was consistently there). Brinstar would probably still be banned, though, because breaking the stage apart is way too strong.

players dislike the stage and they cling to whatever argument they can in the hopes of seeing it banned.
I see it as players not liking a stage and, due to the emotional and complex nature of human life, they have a hard time forming their experiences into words. At the end of the day it isn't about who is more objective or subjective, it is about understanding and coming to terms with the experiences every player has playing the game, not just your own.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
Can it just be because I don't like you?

Way to ninja that ****, Sveet.

Sometimes it doesn't matter if something is on a timer to be "random". If randall the cloud comes out as im edgehogging, allowing my opponent to grab edge and thus live, that is "random". Yoshi's isn't banned for a few reasons, mostly because its one of the best stages in the game and the cloud doesn't have a significant effect on results. When the same principles occur with stage hazards, the effect of the inconsistency is much more severe. Honestly, I think brinstar would be a more competitive stage if it had lava at the bottom at all times (or at any height, as long as it was consistently there). Brinstar would probably still be banned, though, because breaking the stage apart is way too strong.
There are instances where things are too difficult to predict, and thus are "effectively random." However, Randall is not a good example. Looking at the timer is all you need to do to realize the cloud is on its way and account for it.

I just don't agree that the stage hazards on Brinstar have any severe impact on the consistency of results.

I see it as players not liking a stage and, due to the emotional and complex nature of human life, they have a hard time forming their experiences into words. At the end of the day it isn't about who is more objective or subjective, it is about understanding and coming to terms with the experiences every player has playing the game, not just your own.
It's not about my experiences playing the game. Quite the opposite: I personally prefer the current ruleset (though I still find all of these individual stages enjoyable). But I try to remain intellectually honest. I am not pushing for my preference, by any means. I am pushing for some inkling of actual fairness when creating a ruleset. That we don't just pander to the majority because they're louder than the minority.
 

Mahone

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
2,940
Location
Blacksburg, VA
I don't know what my exact definition would be, but it just sounds like you use random when you are referring to something the game using a random function for...

whereas i sorta have a limit of what i think is reasonable for someone to have to keep track of, like... the shyguys... or lets say brinstar IS on a set timer, and marth is going for a ken combo vs fox, its unreasonable for him to know whether the ACID (not lava) is just starting to rise, when determining whether to end with a dair vs a reverse up-b

of course you can argue that adds depth or whatever, but it just comes down to opinion... my point is that its a valid opinion and not just "BRINSTAR ISNT FLAT" and these are the arguments ive heard.
 
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