Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

[Bones0]

I'd rather play Melee, and you know it! If there is a power outage, you can count me in. lol

 

[Kal]

We do have pretty incredible steaks.

 

[Mahone]

I'd rather play Melee, and you know it! If there is a power outage, you can count me in. lol

rofl, you didn't even come last time i was there

 

[Bones0]

Is the next SS during your break?

 

[Bing]

6 cps... Neutrals + PS

yeah thats plenty of variety.

 

[Bones0]

You can get all the variety you want during friendlies. Play on whatever stage you want.

 

[Mahone]

why do we only have 1 counterpick?

seems silly to me, just have neutrals or add some more counterpicks, i feel like only having 1 counterpick that favors fastfallers is unfair

@bones- i have no idea when that is, just text me so we stop derailing this thread

 

[Kal]

Mahone, we don't ban or throw in stages in an attempt at attaining balance (or, at least, most of us don't). If Mute City and Brinstar were both legal, the fact that Peach and Jiggs are good on both wouldn't mean we should ban one.

I also think most of the MBR consider Pokémon Stadium "neutral," but that they needed to leave a stage out of the starter list so that our method of striking stags would work.

 

[Bing]

You can get all the variety you want during friendlies. Play on whatever stage you want.

-_- God you can be so lame Bones0...

 

[Kal]

We should ban Falco at a tournament Bones attends and say "you can play Falco all you want during friendlies."

 

[Mahone]

Oh, well i just assumed there was some sort of character bias since Stadium is not neutral at all...

I don't understand how you can even compare it to the neutrals... stage transforms putting smoke all over the ****ing place, you can fall through the stage, bad cameras at ledges, janky ledges on some transformations, you can infinite on some transformations

Just get rid of PS please, I just think the idea of only 1 counterpick seems odd, at the point were you just have one, i feel like you should remove it since you clearly define it as being more "counterpicky" than the other five stages

Also, i thought stages were removed for balance, like RC being too good for fox and Brinstar being too good for peach/puff...

fox vs peach/puff on stadium is a NIGHTMARE

 

[Bing]

Bring back Mute city!

I wouldnt even mind that horrid Peach infested place...

 

[Kal]

I don't really agree with the distinction between "neutral" and "counterpick" anymore. It was only constructed in the first place because our first stage was chosen randomly. Since we can strike stages, it seems totally unnecessary to me.

When a stage is "removed for balance," it should be done to prevent brokenness. If you think Fox breaks the game (i.e., overwhelmingly dominates) on Rainbow Cruise, then you can ban for it. In that sense, you're banning stages for balance, but it's to prevent the game from degenerating. Hyrule is a good example of such a ban that is more or less totally justified.

But I do believe there are MBR members who ban for balance. Can't say for certain, though Cactuar has expressed sentiments along those lines.

 

[Bing]

I honestly think we should have kept Stages like Brinstar, yes they gave characters who can live for a long time an even long lifespan, but we always have the ability to ban this stage.

Maybe add more bans to the CP and add more stages back? Again, some Variety would be nice....

 

[Kal]

I would be happy with some middle ground. Most of the community hates the stages more than they like variety, Bing, so it's unlikely we'll see more stages. If anything, expect more of them to be banned. Pokémon Stadium will be the next to go, I bet, followed by Final Destination or Fountain of Dreams.

 

[Vash the Stampede]

We do have pretty incredible steaks.

http://www.torontolife.com/daily/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/HugeSteak1.jpg

amazing indeed..

6 cps... Neutrals + PS

yeah thats plenty of variety.

Many theorists and angry asiatic mob members would disagree with that statement.

 

[Bones0]

We should ban Falco at a tournament Bones attends and say "you can play Falco all you want during friendlies."

Sure. Can't wait to see how many people take your tournament seriously, let alone show up.


Surprised you don't think PS is very neutral, Mahone. I mean for Jiggs I could see it being pretty bad because she's so slow and dies off the top so frequently, but for most matchups it seems okay, and I think that's reflected in how often it's chosen in tournament. Spacies tend to like that it's wide, but they get merked pretty hard by the ledges being only marginally better than BF's, and the lack of top platform hurts the more than it helps them (imo).

But really it's comes down to what Kal said (something we actually agree on lol). It doesn't make sense to have counterpicks because a stage is either fair enough to compete on or it isn't.


I'm watching an Australian version of Undercover Boss, and they just use the word "gobsmacked." lol WTF? Awesome word...

 

[Kal]

As usual, missing the point out of ten.

 

[Bing]

Yeah Its unfortunate that the community in general wants to make the game so Balanced that its taking out so much.

What would be cool is if everyone had AR's and we could make green greens and **** like that legal because of there hacks. lol.

 

[Bones0]

I honestly think we should have kept Stages like Brinstar, yes they gave characters who can live for a long time an even long lifespan, but we always have the ability to ban this stage.

Maybe add more bans to the CP and add more stages back? Again, some Variety would be nice....

You're assuming everyone wants Brinstar banned because it is bad for their character...

As usual, missing the point out of ten.

No, I just didn't feel like addressing something that's been talked about 10 million times before (banning stages is different from banning characters, yadda yadda).

 

[Bing]

No Im assuming people want Brinstar banned because it adds a sort of imbalance

 

[Bones0]

Okay, same thing. You're assuming people are banning it because of character balance. Even if the game was Fox dittos only, Brinstar should still be banned.

 

[Kal]

No, I just didn't feel like addressing something that's been talked about 10 million times before (banning stages is different from banning characters, yadda yadda).

Ironically, still missing the point.

 

[Bing]

Okay, same thing. You're assuming people are banning it because of character balance. Even if the game was Fox dittos only, Brinstar should still be banned.

So why do you believe Brinstar should be banned Mr. House?

 

[Bones0]

Acid is random. Feel free to search through the rest of my posts in this thread. God knows I've talked about it more than necessary.

 

[Vash the Stampede]

It seems people can create arguable points for why brinstar is banned in the same context as why people think poke stadium should stay/not stay a cp. Everyone is basically going to have their own opinions, however, many (if not all) moderators or rule officials will offset generalized community ideas with tourney results and high-end tournament set-ups in regards to stage preference and which balance out the game, where in reality the characters are so unbalanced it makes any decisions accurately arguable on either side of the fence. In context of psychology this is usually seen as a social problem where both sides can be so rigorously argued that neither is fully right nor fully wrong, both are so equal in their set opinions that there isn't a wrong or right way things are done. It is just how many more believe one to the other. Where in this case majority rules sadly.

All-in-all the population of the community should join the major petition.

For the legalization of poke floats.

 

[Bing]

So because Acid is Random we should remove it?

Maybe the "wonky" platforms?

Or that you can split the stage and possibly camp?

****s weak.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

There is a difference between accounting for static elements and accounting for dynamic elements of the stage. Static elements include platforms and dimensions of the blastzone. Dynamic elements are ones that are not constant. Sometimes you 0td cg on brinstar, sometimes you get hit by the acid-that-looks-a-****-ton-like-lava before the first grab finishes. Even if you account perfectly for elements such as these, there are two problems with this argument. One is that it affects both players differently, not just because of how it affects each character, but because sometimes it hurts one player or helps another player and its impossible to compare the individual interactions to each other. This is an uncompetitive quality. The other problem with the argument is that, assuming you account for the stage perfectly, the best you can do is have the stage not affect you. That means that as the metagame approaches perfection, the interactions between the players approaches the same interactions as if the hazard wasn't there, meaning the hazard has no competitive value. It doesn't add depth, it simply makes player interactions less competitive and makes the results inconsistent.

 

[Bing]

Meh, I guess so, Im simply speaking from a "I wish there were more stages" perspective.

 

[Geenareeno]

Dang Sveet, never thought of that. That's a pretty good argument.

 

[Kal]

There are some obvious holes in it, but on the whole I agree with Sveet's point. If I were to personally build Smash from the ground up, there would be little to no randomness, and stage hazards that actually damage players would be minimized. But it's clear that everything Sveet has said is a matter of opinion.

Stage hazards don't provide zero depth; that's just absurd. That the metagame will function strictly around avoiding the hazards, and not using them, is equally untrue.

That it affects both players differently is an aspect of depth. Being that dynamic forces players to learn to known how to react to more scenarios, and adds depth. It's also not impossible to compare the "individual interactions," to each other (in fact, I'm not even sure how such a conclusion can be reached). Whether all of this is an "uncompetitive quality" is entirely a matter of opinion, c.f. Poker.

Again, I'm in agreement with Sveet vis-à-vis opinion, but it's ridiculous to act like these elements form some sort of objectively worse game. It's a matter of opinion. And, despite agreeing with him, and actually preferring the current ruleset (though I certainly still enjoy the non-starter stages), I still think it's totally unfair (and quite scrubby) to ban these stages on preference alone.

 

[Bones0]

I think it's unfair and scrubby to include stages with hazards.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

@Bones0: You think it is scrubby to advocate the inclusion of stages which by their very nature require more skill to play on, either because the stage hazards require skill to avoid, utilize, or otherwise alter strategies around, or because of the increased difficulty in not getting ***** by Fox there? You are a very strange person with a very strange definition of "scrubby."

@Sveet: Really? The metagame would revolve solely around avoiding the stage hazards and playing as if they weren't there? And here I thought one of the justifications for banning Brinstar was because Peach could break apart the stage and **** Marth or something. That is a clear-cut case of banning a stage because its stage hazards can be utilized.

 

[Bones0]

I'd love to see an example of an entire match on Brinstar where the acid doesn't RANDOMLY impact the outcome. As was discussed above (it's frustrating how some people feel they can come and go with the conversation and then get outraged at opinions that have already been explained), the "skill" required to avoid stage hazards is questionable at best because players are limited in how much they can truly compensate for randomness. Are there situations where a player could demonstrate more skill than his opponent based on the way he handles stage hazards? Obviously. But that doesn't just eliminate the situations where he couldn't have done anything to account for them and he randomly gets screwed.

 

[KishPrime]

There are a ton of matches where the acid doesn't randomly affect the outcome. The only times where it is "random" to me are when players who get spiked off the stage get saved...and even then the player on top of the stage still has all of the advantages.

But I quit this topic a long time ago and will do so again. Shrug. Don't even know why I felt like posting.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

A Fox can demonstrate superior skill to a Marth on FD by utilizing the lack of platforms effectively to laser-camp, then get put in a situation where he can't avoid being grabbed and get randomly screwed over by a chaingrab that is randomly only possible on FD. The only reason you don't think lack of platforms is random is because they are constantly absent, when relative to the other neutral stages, the lack of platforms on FD really is pretty random. We have 5 stages with platforms and, randomly, 1 stage without. Fox on FD has to constantly 100% of the time attempt to work his way around the fact that Marth can chaingrab him at practically any time, whereas he only has to be concerned about getting comboed off Brinstar acid by a Falcon a small percentage of the time. Yet somehow the acid on Brinstar interferes more with the match than the lack of platforms on FD. This is the point where your argument ceases to make sense to me.

 

[Kal]

Because the lack of platforms is eternal, like God, Ferrish. Read the ****ing Bible. Jeeze.

 

[Bones0]

A stage with no platforms being on the stage list isn't any more random than a stage with a thin ledge or a stage with a rotating cloud being on the stage list. Both players know going into the match that Marth chain grabs Fox. They both know the risks and rewards of striking/banning/choosing FD. The only random element you could ever ***** about on FD is that the background randomly changed and ****ed you up.

Interfere implies it changes something from it's predicted course. Fox getting chain grabbed on FD isn't a result of interference. The acid saving someone is interference because it RANDOMLY changed the course of the game. It could just have easily happened the other way as it is out of the control of either player.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Didn't we just come full circle with this argument pages ago?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kal]

The real question is how many times Bones can miss the point /10 before he starts actually understanding the points people put forth. I'm also anxiously waiting for a post ending with something really condescending, like "get a clue."