TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[uhmuzing]

What would I give to see two pikmin hold down Popo and another holding his head up. To be forced to see Nana get ripped in half by two Purple pikmin pulling in two opposite directions @_@.

That's disturbing... ...but maybe we can use it.

 

[UncleSam]

Figured out rope length
A standard climbing rope length is 50 meters
due to the mountains that are climbed by the climbers, I could accurately say they may use a rope at about 60 meters

Also due to the mountains the climbers climb, and they would more likely have a dynamic strength rope with high static elongation and low maximum impact force...

what was this for again?

 

[adumbrodeus]

adumbrodeus go to youtube and look up gameplay on pikmin 2 and tell me they aren't broken
the matter of weight distribution is odd because apparently it takes 100 purple pikmin all less than an inch tall to pick up a 1 pound dumbell. the strength distribution in that game is confusing especially when giving them a buff since they don't apply to actual physics in the game yet you put them into actual physics it would be tough to measure out their strengh because as marthage said their little hearts would give out(poor pikmin )

oh and I didn't say pick up I said hold down... those are two totally different situations for pinning an Ice climber

Yea....

And that's exactly the type of situation that we change in order to be realistic in this thread.

They're pretty broken in-game.

Figured out rope length
A standard climbing rope length is 50 meters
due to the mountains that are climbed by the climbers, I could accurately say they may use a rope at about 60 meters

Also due to the mountains the climbers climb, and they would more likely have a dynamic strength rope with high static elongation and low maximum impact force...

Ah, ok.

It's a good harrassment move, but I don't really see it winning the confrontation because they couldn't get enough power in it. (the hit)

Plus, any obstructions would ruin the manuever.

That's disturbing... ...but maybe we can use it.

Sick... also impossible.

 

[uhmuzing]

Okay, its time for this question - what kind of battlefield should we use? It should be something that isn't advantageous for either combatant.

 

[kirbywizard]

Sick... also impossible.

Possible, if they trip :D. It would be a great execution move.

 

[UncleSam]

I think IC's might have a slight advantage unless all of Olimar's pikmin jump the IC's at once.
then they'd have to worry about getting them all off

 

[Sieguest]

Ah, ok.

It's a good harrassment move, but I don't really see it winning the confrontation because they couldn't get enough strenth in it.

Plus, any obstructions would ruin the manuever.

They could lessen and increase the slack of the rope to adjust for the situation...lessening the length for obstactles and widening the rope to clear distance...they could stretch the rope to make it more taut and that could produce for striking force...
then again, it won't win the confrontation out right...but it can topple the pikmin and olimar and leave them open for the finisher.

 

[AGuyNamedRaf]

Okay, its time for this question - what kind of battlefield should we use? It should be something that isn't advantageous for either combatant.

How about a hilly place with no vegetation and no ice?.. like a desert!

 

[kirbywizard]

I think IC's might have a slight advantage unless all of Olimar's pikmin jump the IC's at once.
then they'd have to worry about getting them all off

Hm the thing is who is attacking first, Oli or Ics.

In Pikmin 1 and 2. The pikmin ambush most of the enemies, and those that try to ambush Pikmin usually get swarmed.

ICs are human, what will they do. WIll they attack the squad , or will they be attacked first.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Possible, if they trip :D. It would be a great execution move.

Nah, it's unrealistic for them to be strong enough.

I think IC's might have a slight advantage unless all of Olimar's pikmin jump the IC's at once.
then they'd have to worry about getting them all off

Nah, slowly approaching onion of poison definately gives Olimar the edge here, Oli simply has too much control in the melee area and ICs don't have an effective ranged weapon to deal with it.

 

[UncleSam]

sand would decrease mobility giving IC's the advantage
they could spam the rope and not have to move while Olimanr and his pikmin would have to move
60m srsly?
@adumbrodeus- you just agreed with the rope idea they could sit there out of the way from the toxins and hit them with the rope
that and I don't think the white pikmin could make a large enought onion shield even if there are 2 of them making it it would take a while and some of the poison would eventually go away the white pikmin would be continuously expanding energy to keep the toxins active they'd eventually get tired out

 

[Sieguest]

sand would decrease mobility giving IC's the advantage
they could spam the rope and not have to move while Olimanr and his pikmin would have to move
60m srsly?

yep...standard ropes are 50m
but for the grade of mountain IC's usually climb 60m is more suitable to use.

 

[AGuyNamedRaf]

How about a space station with lots of hills and the gravity of earth?

 

[UncleSam]

were stages even discussed on previous weeks?

 

[adumbrodeus]

They could lessen and increase the slack of the rope to adjust for the situation...lessening the length for obstactles and widening the rope to clear distance...they could stretch the rope to make it more taut and that could produce for striking force...
then again, it won't win the confrontation out right...but it can topple the pikmin and olimar and leave them open for the finisher.

What about any tall obsticals? Like trees?

Yes, they could, the problem there is that they're simply not gonna be able to run fast enough to produce a massive amount of force. It's also pretty predictable which makes it easy to avoid.

You're also underestimating the effective range of the onion of poison, they'll have to be far enough out that Olimar will be able to stand up, if they wanna breath.

How about a hilly place with no vegetation and no ice?.. like a desert!

Actually, that advantages ICs, few obsticals will make it easier to keep out of the onion of poison.

On the other hand, caves are VERY pro-olimar here.


Vegitation doesn't really advantage Olimar inherently.


Ah, reletively flat plain intersperced with some trees?

sand would decrease mobility giving IC's the advantage
they could spam the rope and not have to move while Olimanr and his pikmin would have to move
60m srsly?
@adumbrodeus- you just agreed with the rope idea they could sit there out of the way from the toxins and hit them with the rope
that and I don't think the white pikmin could make a large enought onion shield even if there are 2 of them making it it would take a while and some of the poison would eventually go away the white pikmin would be continuously expanding energy to keep the toxins active they'd eventually get tired out

Nah, I agree with it, it's a good idea, but I was actually thinking of something else with it.

Then I realized if they threw the hook, olimar and the picman would grab it and they'd could outmuscle the ICs together.


The poison isn't gonna really require energy, it's basic use is just breathing, and to make it more potent is breathing hard. Actually, they're probably expelling them passively all the time.

 

[Sieguest]

were stages even discussed on previous weeks?

There was a small discussion about the stage in the Ridley vs. Rayquaza matchup...

but usually stages are assumed neutral
in the kill ratio it usually accounts for different situations

What if they met in a forest?
Olimar would win the white pikmin could spread their poison and there's not much room for the IC's to evade from it...

In a flat area?
The IC's may have this simply because they could corral the pikmin with the rope without fear of obstacles and topple them...leaving the opening of a finisher...

What about in a hilly area?
usually I think this is most neutral, IC can't totally spam the rope and the poison is able to be avoided...it comes down to the other strategy discussed through the matchup!

@adumbrodeus-the rope could be used for more than just that
also consider what climbers would use them for...since the rope has high static elongation...it could be used in a more rubber band like way...pop the pikmin from afar, a sort of grounded belay and pop the white pikmin...

also you stated that the pikmin poison takes time to spread, a rush isn't out of the question, they could use the rope as something of a corraling tool to keep the pikmin at bay and quickly take out the white pikmin or even olimar if convinient...

I have to eat dinner...
I shall return...

 

[UncleSam]

Actually, they're probably expelling them passively all the time.

2 pikmin passively breathing isn't going to get a large range if you see yourself breathing on a cold day your breath doesnt go too far nor does it last too long
same thing applies to the white pikmin

 

[adumbrodeus]

2 pikmin passively breathing isn't going to get a large range if you see yourself breathing on a cold day your breath doesnt go too far nor does it last too long
same thing applies to the white pikmin

Not really, the particles are still there, they just spread out and diffuse in the air.


That's why I spent a long time time trying to figure out how potent the white pikmin's poison. You see, a powerful enough poison requires only a tiny amount to be deadly or crippling, and guess what, based on the information we have, even when diffused quite a bit, the poison would be more then enough to kill or cripple you.

So, it's both realistic for the poison to be able to kill in the minute amounts that would be in the air and based on the information given in the game, the case.


Those pikmin have a REALLY powerful poison btw, it's pretty impressive.

 

[UncleSam]

white pikmin can take out anything when they let themselves be eaten it's crazy.
the diffusion of the toxins would be affected by wind, so that's something to take into account

 

[tocador]

Purple to Tank, Yellow to scout, red to approach, white to kill and blue to do a bit of everything.

Ic's have: Nana to tank, nana to scout, nana to approach, nana to kill and nana to do a bit of everything, so yeah..... Olimar > Ic :B

 

[AGuyNamedRaf]

If wind is involved, that changes a lot...

 

[adumbrodeus]

white pikmin can take out anything when they let themselves be eaten it's crazy.
the diffusion of the toxins would be affected by wind, so that's something to take into account

Yea, but notice point I gave earlier, instant death on eating is very telling because it shows that it's EXTREMELY toxic.


Yes, that's true, wind may advantage or disadvantage olimar depending on the the direction and windspeed. Lack thereof is probably neutral.



Just for reference, Botulin is a toxin that requires only a microgram to kill humans (a microgram is one of the smallest units of mass measurement known to man, it's 1/1000 of a milligram).


Yes, amazingly tiny doses can be fatal.

 

[tocador]

Maybe white pikmin inject toxines with skin contact, so thats why they hit their targets :D.

 

[UncleSam]

I know what botulin is and what I remember from the game is that they don't deal damage from breathing yes they exhaled a purple mist of toxins but it never had an effect on nearby pikmin/oli/enemies
only death by digestion
and it's not like the IC's are going to eat them unless forced

 

[Sieguest]

Yea, but notice point I gave earlier, instant death on eating is very telling because it shows that it's EXTREMELY toxic.


Yes, that's true, wind may advantage or disadvantage olimar depending on the the direction and windspeed. Lack thereof is probably neutral.



Just for reference, Botulin is a toxin that requires only a microgram to kill humans (a microgram is one of the smallest units of mass measurement known to man, it's 1/1000 of a milligram).


Yes, amazingly tiny doses can be fatal.

But air moves constantly...spacing far enough the poison will soon just be miniscule, and since air constantly moves, with enough waiting the poison will be drifted in another direction...

@uncle sam- do you think the mist expelled by breathing is only a sign of poison...
you know, like how certain animals give signs how they're poisonous...
how do we know the purple mist expelled from breathing isn't a sign...

I'll watch the video again now that I think on it...

 

[AGuyNamedRaf]

I know what botulin is and what I remember from the game is that they don't deal damage from breathing yes they exhaled a purple mist of toxins but it never had an effect on nearby pikmin/oli/enemies
only death by digestion
and it's not like the IC's are going to eat them unless forced

Answer

VIOLENTLY STUFF WHITE PIKMIN DOWN THEIR THROATS!

 

[UncleSam]

purple pikmin could hold the other one down while Olimar would force a white pikmin down the IC's mouth

I kind of said that 2 pages ago so yeah I know already

 

[adumbrodeus]

I know what botulin is and what I remember from the game is that they don't deal damage from breathing yes they exhaled a purple mist of toxins but it never had an effect on nearby pikmin/oli/enemies
only death by digestion
and it's not like the IC's are going to eat them unless forced

If the mist is toxic, then they have the ability to effect enemies, which presumably suggests that...

A. It's the game designers not being realistic because they didn't want the white pikmin overpowered (and we know THAT would never happen, right? Whoever heard of games not being realistic?).

B. The enemies in the game evolved some sort of defense preventing the toxin from reaching their bloodstream through breathing, basically a live for your lungs. Basically, the pikmin haven't caught up evolutionarily yet.

But air moves constantly...spacing far enough the poison will soon just be miniscule, and since air constantly moves, with enough waiting the poison will be drifted in another direction...

Again, that's why I spent so much work trying to figure out how toxic it actually is, and that's what my whole "onion of poison" post was about.

Yes, diffussion WILL effect it, but the effect varies by distance, takes a little while to maintain it, but since it's able to be passively expelled, maintainance is basically effortless.

@uncle sam- do you think the mist expelled by breathing is only a sign of poison...
you know, like how certain animals give signs how they're poisonous...
how do we know the purple mist expelled from breathing isn't a sign...

I'll watch the video again now that I think on it...

Possible, but it makes no evolutionary sense, why product a seperate compound as a warning when you can simply expell one you can kill with?

Especially since markings are easiers (which they already seem to have).


It makes more sense that they got outpaced evolutionarily by the local fauna who evolved a lung defense.

 

[uhmuzing]

My problem with assuming there's trees or wind is that they're technically attributes of the battlefield we use. Using something like that puts somebody at a disadvantage.

 

[UncleSam]

If the mist is toxic, then they have the ability to effect enemies, which presumably suggests that...

A. It's the game designers not being realistic because they didn't want the white pikmin overpowered (and we know THAT would never happen, right? Whoever heard of games not being realistic?).

B. The enemies in the game evolved some sort of defense preventing the toxin from reaching their bloodstream through breathing, basically a live for your lungs. Basically, the pikmin haven't caught up evolutionarily yet.



Again, that's why I spent so much work trying to figure out how toxic it actually is, and that's what my whole "onion of poison" post was about.

Yes, diffussion WILL effect it, but the effect varies by distance, takes a little while to maintain it, but since it's able to be passively expelled, maintainance is basically effortless.



Possible, but it makes no evolutionary sense, why product a seperate compound as a warning when you can simply expell one you can kill with?

Especially since markings are easiers (which they already seem to have).


It makes more sense that they got outpaced evolutionarily by the local fauna who evolved a lung defense.

maybe when air(or whatever atmospheric gas is on that planet) gets diffused out of the pikmins lungs it is expelled similar to what looks like the toxin because of the fact that there is a toxin somewhere in the body

 

[Sieguest]

Rewatched the video... now that I think about it...that's a very misleading cutscene...
it only showed the pikmin expelling a purple cloud...but it never showed that it actually used it in action against an enemy...so how can it significantly prove that breath is only a show and not real...

@adumbrodeus- some animals docile in nature usually attmept to avoid confrontation by putting on a show...
The Texas Horned Toad spits blood at foes to scare them off...but it doesn't really do much else, this could apply to the pikmin...

 

[UncleSam]

you guys make me want to play pikmin 2 again when does this discussion end I can beat it in under 5 hours I'll beat it tomorrow if this discussion goes on for another few days
I could beat it and test to see if the breath actually does something, just something to test out
because it seems that the only way to finish this discussion is through the poison discussion everything else has pretty much played out

 

[uhmuzing]

@adumbrodeus- some animals docile in nature usually attmept to avoid confrontation by putting on a show...
The Texas Horned Toad spits blood at foes to scare them off...but it doesn't really do much else, this could apply to the pikmin...

I'm glad my movie is still in use. Not that it really proves anything, but PIkmin aren't really of docile nature. They're fiesty little people.

 

[adumbrodeus]

maybe when air(or whatever atmospheric gas is on that planet) gets diffused out of the pikmins lungs it is expelled similar to what looks like the toxin because of the fact that there is a toxin somewhere in the body

...

No, if the toxin effected the breath then it's toxic, we went through this before, it's extremely virulent.


Furthermore, any coloring has to be some sort of mechanism intended for that. To achieve enough of a concentration to recolor the air means a large amount of whatever substance that can't be attributed to natural breathing unless it's a evolutionary mechanism intended to put that there. Basically either it's body toxifies the exhale or it's the byproduct of their breathing (like CO2 for our breathing, though I assume they store some of it if so).

@adumbrodeus- some animals docile in nature usually attmept to avoid confrontation by putting on a show...
The Texas Horned Toad spits blood at foes to scare them off...but it doesn't really do much else, this could apply to the pikmin...

Again, the major issue there is that they have something to use it with, furthermore, it's far too much evolutionary dedication to just be a show unless it helps with mating.

There's also the fact that the white pikmin are basically brimming with poison (periphials deal damage and are instant death to enemies), their breath would be poisonious regardless, just to a lower extent.

Overall, that makes it near evolutionarily impossible for it to just be a show. Markings (which it has) are a lot more practical for this type of situation, it's already dangerious to eat after all. There's no evolutionary reason for it to have "hey look at me, I'm poisonious" breath as well.


edit:

you guys make me want to play pikmin 2 again when does this discussion end I can beat it in under 5 hours I'll beat it tomorrow if this discussion goes on for another few days
I could beat it and test to see if the breath actually does something, just something to test out
because it seems that the only way to finish this discussion is through the poison discussion everything else has pretty much played out

You realize my argument is not that it does that in the game, but that it's unrealistic for it to not act in the manner which I'm talking about?

 

[arch knight]

I'm glad my movie is still in use. Not that it really proves anything, but PIkmin aren't really of docile nature. They're fiesty little people.

Not true they only attack when commanded to by olimar. They are only aggressive when confronted by a flint beetle which they will try to swarm at all costs

 

[UncleSam]

just to a lower extent.

so that means your onion cloud is weaker than previously mentioned?

 

[uhmuzing]

Not true they only attack when commanded to by olimar. They are only aggressive when confronted by a flint beetle which they will try to swarm at all costs

I must disagree. Wild pikmin are keen to attack; another example is the wogpoles or whatever they're called in the wild Blue pikmin's pond in Pikmin2. Pikmin can be aggressive even without Olimar.

 

[adumbrodeus]

so that means your onion cloud is weaker than previously mentioned?

No, that was part of my argument that what you're suggesting about the pikmin is unrealistic. There's no way for it to be not at least a little poisonious, so there's no evolutionary reason for it to develop a secondary chemical compound which's only reason is to say, "hey look, I'm poisonious".

 

[UncleSam]

I must disagree. Wild pikmin are keen to attack; another example is the wogpoles or whatever they're called in the wild Blue pikmin's pond in Pikmin2. Pikmin can be aggressive even without Olimar.

they only did it to protect their onion
or at least for food they aren't purely aggressive by nature they only naturally follw survival instincts when needed other than that they require and rely on a leader>.<
*yawn* tired

 

[BSP]

im gonna say ic's. they could smash the pikmin, and they have spiky cleets.