TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[arch knight]

I must disagree. Wild pikmin are keen to attack; another example is the wogpoles or whatever they're called in the wild Blue pikmin's pond in Pikmin2. Pikmin can be aggressive even without Olimar.

Yes i forgot about them but even so that makes only 2 creatures the pikmin will attack on sight the rest just maul them

 

[uhmuzing]

Yes i forgot about them but even so that makes only 2 creatures the pikmin will attack on sight the rest just maul them

That Dwarf Bulborb at the beginning of Pikmin 2 (the reds were fighting it) might count, thoguh we can't be sure of who started the fight.

 

[Sieguest]

I'm glad my movie is still in use. Not that it really proves anything, but PIkmin aren't really of docile nature. They're fiesty little people.

Not so...Pikmin befriend those who are able to pluck them...and only attack when ordered to. there is only one species that the pikmin will attack at all cost....the Flint Beetle!... or if it comes to defending an important source of food. survival instinct...

...

No, if the toxin effected the breath then it's toxic, we went through this before, it's extremely virulent.


Furthermore, any coloring has to be some sort of mechanism intended for that. To achieve enough of a concentration to recolor the air means a large amount of whatever substance that can't be attributed to natural breathing unless it's a evolutionary mechanism intended to put that there. Basically either it's body toxifies the exhale or it's the byproduct of their breathing (like CO2 for our breathing, though I assume they store some of it if so).



Again, the major issue there is that they have something to use it with, furthermore, it's far too much evolutionary dedication to just be a show unless it helps with mating.

There's also the fact that the white pikmin are basically brimming with poison (periphials deal damage and are instant death to enemies), their breath would be poisonious regardless, just to a lower extent.

Overall, that makes it near evolutionarily impossible for it to just be a show. Markings (which it has) are a lot more practical for this type of situation, it's already dangerious to eat after all. There's no evolutionary reason for it to have "hey look at me, I'm poisonious" breath as well.


edit:




You realize my argument is not that it does that in the game, but that it's unrealistic for it to not act in the manner which I'm talking about?

well, there's no gameplay showing that the white pikmin uses "poison breath"
it's only been useful for digging up unhidden objects (hence it's red eyes), the white pikmin only seems to do poison damage by ingestion...

with that said... I understand what you mean by how it would be unrealistic for the pikmin not to be able to use poison breath, but not even websites devoted to pikmin mention it having that ability in nature...it may not be so evolutionary advanced to use that as a weapon of offense or defense, it may even be that the pikmin burped as there has been no other time it's been seen to do that...it has been shown to attack foes just like the other pikmin...

 

[uhmuzing]

Not so...Pikmin befriend those who are able to pluck them...and only attack when ordered to. there is only one species that the pikmin will attack at all cost....the Flint Beetle!...

Actually there are two species, maybe three. There isn't any evidense that wouldn't attack at the sight of an enemy (though, there's also none to say they would).

1. Flint Beetle

2. Wogpole

3. Possibly the Dwarf Bulborb ( and why wouldn't they attack other Bulborbs as well?)

 

[Sieguest]

Actually there are two species, maybe three. There isn't any evidense that wouldn't attack at the sight of an enemy (though, there's also none to say they would).

1. Flint Beetle

2. Wogpole

3. Possibly the Dwarf Bulborb ( and why wouldn't they attack other Bulborbs as well?)

these foes must purposely predate pikmin as a source of food...it's only survival instinct to fight back when they recognize these foes...

oh...and one other thing...pikmin don't have lungs...they perform respiration through the leaf/bud/flower
that's why pikmin suffocate whenever water is dropped on them or they walk through a poison area (except the blue and white respectively)

 

[uhmuzing]

these foes must purposely predate pikmin as a source of food...it's only survival instinct to fight back when they recognize these foes...

Wogpoles (and Flint Beetles) don't predate Pikmin. And also, Pikmin aren't neccesarily bound to whoever plucks them. Its possible that they see Olimar as a natural leader or otherwise parental figure.

 

[Sieguest]

Wogpoles (and Flint Beetles) don't predate Pikmin. And also, Pikmin aren't neccesarily bound to whoever plucks them. Its possible that they see Olimar as a natural leader or otherwise parental figure.

you should check the website I posted yonder back...it'll tell confirm you and also tell you otherwise...

 

[uhmuzing]

Actually, I have that site minimized....

"Captain Olimar was noted in Pikmin 1 to wonder, a bit uneasily, why the Pikmin don't attack him, and speculated that they might see him as a 'parental figure'."

That's one quote from the site.... but I haven't found anything that really characterizes their behavior.

 

[Sieguest]

Actually, I have that site minimized....

"Captain Olimar was noted in Pikmin 1 to wonder, a bit uneasily, why the Pikmin don't attack him, and speculated that they might see him as a 'parental figure'."

That's one quote from the site.... but I haven't found anything that really characterizes their behavior.

I don't have the site minimized so I'm pulling from memory,
but isn't there also a sentence that states that Pikmin befriend whoever plucks them or something to that effect...

 

[adumbrodeus]

well, there's no gameplay showing that the white pikmin uses "poison breath"
it's only been useful for digging up unhidden objects (hence it's red eyes), the white pikmin only seems to do poison damage by ingestion...

with that said... I understand what you mean by how it would be unrealistic for the pikmin not to be able to use poison breath, but not even websites devoted to pikmin mention it having that ability in nature...it may not be so evolutionary advanced to use that as a weapon of offense or defense, it may even be that the pikmin burped as there has been no other time it's been seen to do that...it has been shown to attack foes just like the other pikmin...

Understand, evolution is as much a rule of science as as E=mc^2.

Also, notice with the horned toad, it's using a compound that occurs in it's body for a different purpose that happens to work. The idea that it would secrete a seperate compound in large enough amounts to color the air is evolutionarily untenible when it already has access to a compound with a greater effect and the purpose is served already.

That it's not advaced enough again, given it's pre-existing delivery system is unrealistic.

Burping toxic gases up is a fine delivery mechanism.

edit:

oh...and one other thing...pikmin don't have lungs...they perform respiration through the leaf/bud/flower
that's why pikmin suffocate whenever water is dropped on them or they walk through a poison area (except the blue and white respectively)

Oh, then what we saw HAS to be a specialized delivery system. There's no other realistic purpose for it.

 

[uhmuzing]

I don't have the site minimized so I'm pulling from memory,
but isn't there also a sentence that states that Pikmin befriend whoever plucks them or something to that effect...

I'll proof read, but it doesn't say that, I don't think. It does state that they follow Olimar around everywhere and even imitate him when idle, such as blowing on pretend whistles.

 

[Sieguest]

Understand, evolution is as much a rule of science as as E=mc^2.

Also, notice with the horned toad, it's using a compound that occurs in it's body for a different purpose that happens to work. The idea that it would secrete a seperate compound in large enough amounts to color the air is evolutionarily untenible when it already has access to a compound with a greater effect and the purpose is served already.

That it's not advaced enough again, given it's pre-existing delivery system is unrealistic.

Burping toxic gases up is a fine delivery mechanism.

I mean burping as in...accidental
a sudden expulsion of gas from the mouth... as dictionaries like to put it...
sorry for being vague...
if it's that type of burp...what are the chances the pikmin will burp in the battle...if it does burp, obviously the IC's are done for, but if not...
then again...I'm still in the air about it...

 

[JOE!]

just a few...pages since ive been gone <.<;

Anywho, why are we only debating what the two white or two purple pikmin can do? they work as a team dont they?

The other 6 (2 red/yellow/blue) would just stand there?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I mean burping as in...accidental
a sudden expulsion of gas from the mouth... as dictionaries like to put it...
sorry for being vague...
if it's that type of burp...what are the chances the pikmin will burp in the battle...if it does burp, obviously the IC's are done for, but if not...
then again...I'm still in the air about it...

Neither the dictionary nor the medical definition of "burping" requires it to be accidental.


Then again, it doesn't have to come from the stomach, but if it's conducting respiration through the bud, then there's no need to connect the mouth to anything remotely related to the transfer of gases. Heck, if they don't respire through it, why do they need a mouth out all?


The only realistic reason is a delivery system.

 

[uhmuzing]

just a few...pages since ive been gone <.<;

Anywho, why are we only debating what the two white or two purple pikmin can do? they work as a team dont they?

The other 6 (2 red/yellow/blue) would just stand there?

How are they very significant? yes, they can help, but what's to discuss?

 

[arch knight]

Blue pikmin can drown the IC by dragging them into water

Red pikmin can drag them through fire

 

[adumbrodeus]

Blue pikmin can drown the IC by dragging them into water

Red pikmin can drag them through fire

If they were strong enough, now let's see what they're strong enough to actually do...


*crickets chirp*

 

[uhmuzing]

Blue pikmin can drown the IC by dragging them into water

Red pikmin can drag them through fire

yes, but that's only relevant if we're battling near those things.

 

[arch knight]

If they were strong enough, now let's see what they're strong enough to actually do...


*crickets chirp*

well they are 2x stronger and the others could just help move them to these elements. making it possible to do so.

@Dragon: OP never said there wasnt fire or water

 

[uhmuzing]

@Dragon: OP never said there wasnt fire or water

yes, but what are the odds of running into a geyser of fire? This wouldn't make much of a discussion...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Spoiler

*still disapointed nobody commented on the Shriek reference*

well they are 2x stronger and the others could just help move them to these elements. making it possible to do so.

@Dragon: OP never said there wasnt fire or water

Then the ICs, they can lift about twice their body weight at most... ICs are a lot more then twice their body weight.

 

[arch knight]

Spoiler

*still disapointed nobody commented on the Shriek reference*

Then the ICs, they can lift about twice their body weight at most... ICs are a lot more then twice their body weight.

Yes but with 5 pikmin on thats 10x combined strength that can easily move an IC anywhere

 

[uhmuzing]

Okay, but where again are they taking Nana/Popo?

 

[arch knight]

near an elemental hazard: Fire, water, etc.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes but with 5 pikmin on thats 10x combined strength that can easily move an IC anywhere

Possibly, I think they weigh more then 10x the pikmin, their advantage is more gonna be position.


Also, how does this help with drowning/burning?

 

[uhmuzing]

No to gang up on you, Arch Knight, but if there is an elemental hazard (water's the only realistic one) on this battlefield, we seem to be going out of our way to put it in the advantage of Olimar.

 

[arch knight]

Possibly, I think they weigh more then 10x the pikmin, their advantage is more gonna be position.


Also, how does this help with drowning/burning?

well assuming one IC can be carried away by 5 pikmin and the other is kept seperate by the other 5.
they can drag them close to the water or fire where either the 2 blue or 2 red can hold them in place as olimar commands the other pikmin to attack if they get to far.
with the ICs parkas being flamable and made of wool they would burn easily and weigh them down in water. If struggling to get out of the water they become fatigued faster.


@dragon: True true but we never said what the field of battle was like so im just inputing some realistic/unrealistic possiblities

 

[bobson]

How difficult would it be for the Climbers to just hold their breath and smash the whites, then run away and wait out the poison?

 

[uhmuzing]

How difficult would it be for the Climbers to just hold their breath and smash the whites, then run away and wait out the poison?

Consider the risks. Being forced to breathe by the impact of an attack, trapped by the grip of Oli or his pikmin, or otherwise accidentally breathing in or underestimating the range of poisonous air. Also, can't the toxins in the air infiltrate them even if they hold their breath? They still have nostrils after all.

 

[JOE!]

Ok, at this point in time, this is what i see:

The ICs can win with luck depending on if they kill the whites first, then just have a good fight ahead dealing with the other 8

Oli can use multiple strategies to pressure teh ICs to submission

Oli is dead if ICs reach him (somehow get past pikmin)

Pikmin may have trouble actually taking down the ICs unless a majority focuses on one

 

[bobson]

Wait, are the ICs even aware that the whites are poisonous or that Olimar can't breathe oxygen?
Do both opponents know about eachother before the fight?

 

[uhmuzing]

Wait, are the ICs even aware that the whites are poisonous or that Olimar can't breathe oxygen?

Yes and yes. They'll see the whites cough up toxins and acknowledge that they are poisonous. And anyone can look at Olimar's helmet and tell he needs it.

 

[pizzapie7]

Then couldn't they just run around the poisonous ones, and go straight for Olimar? He doesn't stand a chance if they reach him.

 

[JOE!]

Wait, are the ICs even aware that the whites are poisonous or that Olimar can't breathe oxygen?
Do both opponents know about eachother before the fight?

In every other fight, no...

But, like dragon said, it may become obvious after a few minutes

 

[uhmuzing]

But, like dragin said, it may become obvious after a few minutes

I want to point out two things, Joe.

1. You mispelled "Dragon"! How dare youuuuu!

2. You overlooked the Wall of Poison theory in your synopsis of this battle. I don't think its been disproved, and its Olimar's best weapon. How can we contend without our best weapon?

 

[JOE!]

I want to point out two things, Joe.

1. You mispelled "Dragon"! How dare youuuuu!

Lies

2. You overlooked the Wall of Poison theory in your synopsis of this battle. I don't think its been disproved, and its Olimar's best weapon. How can we contend without our best weapon?

Im having the "pikmin defense" include that, seeing as it is a pikmin defense...

 

[pizzapie7]

Even if they end up having to throw one of their hammers at the pikmin to stay away from the poison, the pikmin would still go squish.

 

[uhmuzing]

Ok, at this point in time, this is what i see:

The ICs can win with luck depending on if they kill the whites first, then just have a good fight ahead dealing with the other 8

Oli can use multiple strategies to pressure teh ICs to submission

Hey! You fixed the "Dragon"! (Ninja...)

Luck <<<< Multiple Strategies

Olimar can emphasize on defending the white pikmin in the beginning of the match to have a great defense... a wall of toxin is going to grow fast, and since it turns invisible, the ICs are going to be playing an incredibly cautious game.

Oli is dead if ICs reach him (somehow get past pikmin)

How do they do that? Invisible wall of toxins = death to trespassers.

EDIT: @Pizzapie - If the ICs throw a hammer, Olimar takes it.

 

[pizzapie7]

I didn't read how this fight is taking place (whether Oli is Brawl hieght or canon height) but if he is canon height, the hammer would squish him too. If he's Brawl height, they still have basically 2 lives to one, have one if not both of the poisonous pikmin gone, and have one hammer. I like those odds.

 

[JOE!]

^ if one IC drops, but they only take out the white pikmin (or just 1 white pimin) popo/nana is screwed

I can see the ICs beating olimar if they are smart about it...