TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[REL38]

how can he space if Dk is faster, and they have the same range?

all that is standing between Roy and a mauling is his sword, which doesnt have the raw power because of it's type and the fact taht Roy is a kid to stop DK dead in his tracks unless it's a lucky shot.

if DK charges, there is nowhere for Roy to escape to unless he gets him in the head or chest, because a shot to a hand or arm wont do that much as he has a back-up here, and can then grab or hit Roy.

DK's entire range runs in correlation with being his entire hitbox.
Roy's doesn't. Chances of DK hitting the sword are heavily unlikely.

Roy is spacing which is where he'll be countering DK's mistakes which include lag from attacks, intimidation efforts and planned direct attacks.

Roy can use his range effectively to space.
DK doesn't know how to use his range effectively and gets countered.


So what is the type of sword he's using, hmm?
He's 15 which is no kid. Teenagers are just as capable as adults when it comes to a dedicated skill.
Roy can go for a OHKO with his sword, sure.
But he's gotta be much more careful about it. Even a 9 year old kid can take a kitchen knife and jab it in a robber's throat.
Attacked vital area =/= lucky shot

I'd much rather have Roy wear DK down with the varies counters he'll get on DK's arms. Within minutes, DK will be exhausted from using more stamina (desperate charges/arm swings) coupled with his bleeding wounds varying in depths.
That's when Roy goes for more dedicated slashes and then the death blow.


DK charges.
Roy dodges by rolling to the side.
DK must regain his balance and shift inertia.
Roy just got another free hit on DK.

lolwut at the back-up?

Roy spaces
Roy spaces
Roy spaces
Roy spaces
Roy spaces
Roy slices
Roy spaces

Some more examples now that I think of it:

Charizard's flamethrower cannot burn anything, only do damage.

Ivy's poison powder is only a weak DoT, not an actual threatening poison.

Squirtle cannot make people drown by flooding the area with Surf, as it only does damage

Etc, Etc

What's this even gotta do with this MU?

Besides, Ivy's poison would kill.
Progressively, not immediatly.

 

[Nova9000]

But seriously, DK loses.
Oozaru wins.

 

[JOE!]

@ second part:

holy crap, wrong thread

anywho, what is to stop DK from doing what Roy is doing?

he is faster, and has the same reach, if he wants to he can tire Roy out then strike him when he's exhausted.

 

[★Chaos★]

charge up and when roy shows 1 little exhaustion POW!
DK has a fair chance at takin down this hereoic swordsman

 

[JOE!]

charge up and when roy shows 1 little exhaustion POW!
DK has a fair chance at takin down this hereoic swordsman

are you implying his Neutral B works in Real life?

if so, imma get into a fight, and before hitting the guy ill swing my fist in a circle 10x...

 

[Sieguest]

how can he space if Dk is faster, and they have the same range?

Because all of DKs Range is attackable...
Most of Roy's range ISN'T attackable... therefore Roy spaces with the area in where DKs max attackable range, can only reach Roy's not attackable range.

 

[JOE!]

but then DK's speed comes into play...

Roy cannot back away and keep distance as fast as DK can close it.

If Roy does a swipe, and say misses DK, DK can close the distance and grab Roy before Roy can get far enough away to restart the spacing game.

 

[Sieguest]

but then DK's speed comes into play...

Roy cannot back away and keep distance as fast as DK can close it.

If Roy does a swipe, and say misses DK, DK can close the distance and grab Roy before Roy can get far enough away to restart the spacing game.

Even with speed, DK has to cover unattackable ground, which takes time, and Roy can attack the attackable part of DK reaching over the unattackable part of Roy in that time, that's Roy's spacing advantage, he has the time to attack DK doesn't as DK approaches him.
How would Roy miss if DK is supposedly the one trying to cover the unattackable ground to reach Roy, leaving the attackable part of DK open to Roy to attack.

DK's arm
--------------------------->
<----------------------- Roy's sword with Roy being at the opposite end of the his sword's vector's arrowhead.

consider these two vectors started from opposite sides and came towards each other...

the tip of DK's range, which is attackable meets the tip of Roy's range, which is unattackable.

The common ground shared between the two vectors is the length in which DKs max range at the moment (which is attackable) is within the range of Roy that is unattackable. (his sword.)

If DK continues forward, Roy has that time in which the max range of DK falls within the unattackble range of Roy, the only way DK could avoid a forward slash horizontal slash is to back up, that leads to spacing being reset and we start again, if DK is hit, then the point in my last post pop up and so forth.

 

[REL38]

DK can't do what Roy is doing.

DK is all in all, too dumb and hot-headed to space.
Gorilla intelligence and Alpha male instinct

DK can't wear Roy down.
He can't hit Roy since he's spacing.
Roy only has stamina loss to worry about.

Roy can wear DK down.
He can hit DK since he's spacing.
DK has stamina loss coupled with bleeding wounds to exhaust him.

Who'll wear out first?


DK chargin' is counter-able.
Roy rolls to the side so DK is fighting inertia to stop and turn.
Chances of Roy getting a slash out of this is rather low thinking about it.
DK can continue with his little chargin', but Roy will dodge it.
What happens from here?

DK will eventually cease due to:

a. not working
b. stamina loss


Roy will be wearing DK down.
DK is an Alpha male that'll continue to attack while holding his ground. He'll tire out far quicker than Roy will. Add in the countered slashes and DK's losing blood. Fast due to his constant arm muscles being exerted.

Roy spaces.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@ second part:

holy crap, wrong thread

anywho, what is to stop DK from doing what Roy is doing?

That he lacks the intelligence and years of training to do so?


HUMANS without large amounts of specialized will be unable to do it, no matter how intelligent they are.

he is faster, and has the same reach, if he wants to he can tire Roy out then strike him when he's exhausted.

For all intents and purposes he is not faster, he has a higher top speed and can accelerate faster, but he has the following issues.

1. He decelerates much slower because of the additional momentum, this makes him much less precise and agile.

2. He can't really attack effectively out of his optimal speed position, because there's a great deal of weight on his hands when on all 4s, requiring him to shift his weight to his hindquarters to attack.


3. Movement on his legs is CONSIDERABLY SLOWER then Roy's movement.



Also, due to the fact that being on all 4s places his head in a very vulnerable position, we could safely safe that if he was intelligent, he would never be on all 4s in this fight, or we would if he was a sentient creature. Being on all 4s hurts him a great deal.



As far as reach, where did you get that? Gorillas only outreach humans on average by a foot, unless it was some variation of knife or machete, Roy more then makes up for the reach difference. Either weapon that he could be conceivably carrying, rapier or the Sword of Seals, causes him to outrange DK by a good margin.


Source.




No, you have no idea what you're talking about here Joe, that's rather obvious.


I've already explained this many times before and the entire thread knows which side wins. See, this is the issue that comes up when somebody who picks winners gets involved in the debate.

Spoiler

Of course we all know you'd be planning on bringing this up again when you think I'm not around, just like you did with Bowser vs. Ganon.

 

[JOE!]

dude, DK doesnt have gorilla anatomy, did you even read the post where I showed him vs a gorilla's musculature/structure?

DK is actually never even stated to be a gorilla, just a "Kong" or big "ape" (hell, Mario calls him a monkey)

The problem I am having here is that all Roy has is a means to tire out DK, but to do it he has to do it PERFECTLY every time DK does something, while avoiding someone who is faster than him.

What if DK pulls what that gorilla did in the video and swiftly roll to the side as Roy swings, only gettign a nick and then grabbing/striking Roy?

DK has alot more lee-way than Roy here in that he can take a few hits before being in "trouble", whereas Roy has to essentially never be touched by DK during their fight, while DK is faster and has reach comparable to him...

 

[adumbrodeus]

dude, DK doesnt have gorilla anatomy, did you even read the post where I showed him vs a gorilla's musculature/structure?

DK is actually never even stated to be a gorilla, just a "Kong" or big "ape" (hell, Mario calls him a monkey)

The problem I am having here is that all Roy has is a means to tire out DK, but to do it he has to do it PERFECTLY every time DK does something, while avoiding someone who is faster than him.

What if DK pulls what that gorilla did in the video and swiftly roll to the side as Roy swings, only gettign a nick and then grabbing/striking Roy?

DK has alot more lee-way than Roy here in that he can take a few hits before being in "trouble", whereas Roy has to essentially never be touched by DK during their fight, while DK is faster and has reach comparable to him...

*looks back*


Ah, I see it.


So what you're saying is that DK is lolphail...


I say he gets to have the attributes of a gorilla because,

1. He's been defined as such, and the attributes stated are impossible for a gorilla.

2. As close to their canonical abilities as is realistically possible unless they blatently contradict them. In this case, I'd say the fact that he's a gorilla and it's impossible for him to aquire these attributes outweigh the displayed attributes.


Why are they lol-phail? Honestly because he's simply too top-heavy with those attributes. He's far too unbalanced to stand on his hind legs, and the raw weight of his upper body make moving around extremely difficult on all 4s, let alone redistributing the weight in order to make an attack. Gorillas have the attributes they have for a reason, it works. What you suggest is that DK moves so far past that configuration that I he can barely move.

 

[REL38]

dude, DK doesnt have gorilla anatomy, did you even read the post where I showed him vs a gorilla's musculature/structure?

DK is actually never even stated to be a gorilla,just a "Kong" or big "ape" (hell, Mario calls him a monkey)

*looks back*


Ah, I see it.


So what you're saying is that DK is lolphail...


I say he gets to have the attributes of a gorilla because,

1. He's been defined as such, and the attributes stated are impossible for a gorilla.

2. As close to their canonical abilities as is realistically possible unless they blatently contradict them. In this case, I'd say the fact that he's a gorilla and it's impossible for him to aquire these attributes outweigh the displayed attributes.


Why are they lol-phail? Honestly because he's simply too top-heavy with those attributes. He's far too unbalanced to stand on his hind legs, and the raw weight of his upper body make moving around extremely difficult on all 4s, let alone redistributing the weight in order to make an attack. Gorillas have the attributes they have for a reason, it works. What you suggest is that DK moves so far past that configuration that I he can barely move.

Awww Snap

You gone done it now JOE.

DK just lost the MU

 

[JOE!]

he's not lolphail, Adum just assumes anything that isnt like RL is lolpjail

look at his **** arms, he could probably walk with those things if he wanted

 

[adumbrodeus]

he's not lolphail, Adum just assumes anything that isnt like RL is lolpjail

look at his **** arms, he could probably walk with those things if he wanted

I think you're missing the point. The problem is his massive upper body.


Sure, he can move, but only with near total commitment of his arms. That causes a massive gap between when he stops moving and can launch a strike, decreases power (because his primary balance is now the remaining arm, making it easy to unbalance himself with too much force), makes him a lot less mobile, and makes it pretty much impossible for him to move using only his legs.


Basically, every advantage Roy had on him before is magnified a hundred times over with this set-up except reach.


I'm sorry, but BALANCE, gravity prevents animals from functioning in manners that unbalanced.

 

[Nova9000]

are you implying his Neutral B works in Real life?

if so, imma get into a fight, and before hitting the guy ill swing my fist in a circle 10x...

Don't. I tried in 6th grade (SSB64 was the hottest game at that time), and I though I could DK punch too...I got smacked in the face with a pencil sharpener while "charging mah punch"...

DK can't do what Roy is doing.

DK is all in all, too dumb and hot-headed to space.
Gorilla intelligence and Alpha male instinct
DK can't wear Roy down.
He can't hit Roy since he's spacing.
Roy only has stamina loss to worry about.

Roy can wear DK down.
He can hit DK since he's spacing.
DK has stamina loss coupled with bleeding wounds to exhaust him.

Who'll wear out first?


DK chargin' is counter-able.
Roy rolls to the side so DK is fighting inertia to stop and turn.
Chances of Roy getting a slash out of this is rather low thinking about it.
DK can continue with his little chargin', but Roy will dodge it.
What happens from here?

DK will eventually cease due to:

a. not working
b. stamina loss


Roy will be wearing DK down.
DK is an Alpha male that'll continue to attack while holding his ground. He'll tire out far quicker than Roy will. Add in the countered slashes and DK's losing blood. Fast due to his constant arm muscles being exerted.

Roy spaces.

You have no Saiyan pride what so ever...

I think you're missing the point. The problem is his massive upper body.


Sure, he can move, but only with near total commitment of his arms. That causes a massive gap between when he stops moving and can launch a strike, decreases power (because his primary balance is now the remaining arm, making it easy to unbalance himself with too much force), makes him a lot less mobile, and makes it pretty much impossible for him to move using only his legs.


Basically, every advantage Roy had on him before is magnified a hundred times over with this set-up except reach.


I'm sorry, but BALANCE, gravity prevents animals from functioning in manners that unbalanced.

I can accept Roy winning but now DK fails? Since when does he fail? Apes/gorilla/Kongs can stand on two feet and attack. They also naturally have a bigger upper body but their legs can withstand being on 2s. You might want to explain this one...


@ JOE!
Please stop...we lost this one again...

 

[UncleSam]

Nova where are you finding these pictures?

I can accept Roy winning but now DK fails? Since when does he fail? Apes/gorilla/Kongs can stand on two feet and attack. They also naturally have a bigger upper body but their legs can withstand being on 2s. You might want to explain this one...

the problem here is, Gorilla's can't walk on two feet. if they are going to attack with their arms they have to commit to it and can't move while doing so. If they are going to run they have to use all four of their limbs and can't attack while doing so. Just so they can stay balanced.

Roy can walk and attack at the same time because humans hip bones developed to walk with two limbs.

 

[Nova9000]

Nova where are you finding these pictures?



the problem here is, Gorilla's can't walk on two feet. if they are going to attack with their arms they have to commit to it and can't move while doing so. If they are going to run they have to use all four of their limbs and can't attack while doing so. Just so they can stay balanced.

Roy can walk and attack at the same time because humans hip bones developed to walk with two limbs.

Ok I get it now. DK fails at attacking with both arms.
Good thing he still has teeth...

And I've had these pics for a while; I made a Flickr account so now I can spam them as much as I please....

 

[UncleSam]

Ok I get it now. DK fails at attacking with both arms.
Good thing he still has teeth...

And I've had these pics for a while; I made a Flickr account so now I can spam them as much as I please....

lol flickr.

wait did you say teeth?
ur kidding right?

 

[Nova9000]

lol flickr.

wait did you say teeth?
ur kidding right?

Gorillas have teeth.
DK has teeth also, just not in every pic you see of him.
JOE! gave Yoshi teeth as well, so it only makes sense...

 

[UncleSam]

Gorillas have teeth.
DK has teeth also, just not in every pic you see of him.
JOE! gave Yoshi teeth as well, so it only makes sense...

well duh.
I mean you're kidding about thinking it's going to be an effective move against a swordsman right?
RIGHT?

 

[Nova9000]

well duh.
I mean you're kidding about thinking it's going to be an effective move against a swordsman right?
RIGHT?

I'm referring to future MUs with DK, not this one.
Of course I'm kidding...
Until you see a full moon...

 

[★Chaos★]

lol at the full moon part
and DK has a fair shot at beatin roy
but other MU's might cause a prob

 

[adumbrodeus]

I can accept Roy winning but now DK fails? Since when does he fail? Apes/gorilla/Kongs can stand on two feet and attack. They also naturally have a bigger upper body but their legs can withstand being on 2s. You might want to explain this one...

This is in reference to Joe's contention that DK is significantly different then a normal gorilla. I'm saying that the very things that he's suggesting make DK different, would destroy him.


In other words:

@ JOE!
Please stop...we lost this one again...

You couldn't be more right about this.



Currently my contention is this means he's a normal gorilla, I fully explained why in an earlier post.

 

[★Chaos★]

that dog looks possessed in a freaky way

 

[JOE!]

adum, just because he has a buff upper bod doesnt mean he is automatically lol phail.

that's like saying Ahhhhnold is lolphail because he has disproportionate muscles compared to a normal person.

 

[REL38]

Balanced like a gorilla, JOE?

 

[adumbrodeus]

adum, just because he has a buff upper bod doesnt mean he is automatically lol phail.

that's like saying Ahhhhnold is lolphail because he has disproportionate muscles compared to a normal person.

It's a matter of degrees.


Arnold, though extreme, is well within a viable range. DK on the other hand, seems to have arms longer then greatswords plus human arms whereas a gorilla would have much shorter arms then even the greatsword.


That's extreme enough to totally unbalance him and prevent him from being able to move effectively. Gorilla's legs are a little smaller then their arms, DK's are a LOT smaller.



That plus the fact that he's canonically a gorilla leads me to suggest that this model is patently unrealistically, gorillas don't get those attributes. DK has the attributes of a Gorilla.

 

[REL38]

Roy Wins

End this already JOE
>____>

 

[Nova9000]

Roy wins.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Roy doesn't win, his sword is too heavy for him, and DK could likely take a hit, Roy cannot.

 

[Nova9000]

Roy doesn't win, his sword is too heavy for him, and DK could likely take a hit, Roy cannot.

Read the last few pages. JOE! and I tried to stand for DK, but it's no use.

 

[Diddy Kong]

How? Just look at Roy man...

Almost no armor, and his sword is thicker than his arms meaning he's not all that fast.

Now looking at DK:

Though his upper body strenght really limits his leg usage, thus his speed this animation shows that DK would still be able to punch, though in a dodgy way. Besides looking at DK's Brawl model, you can see that his legs aren't very skinny at all, they're just really short.

Both have issues with speed I guess, but one good punch to the head and Roy's dead for sure. DK might be able to take a slash or a cut I'm thinking.

 

[Nova9000]

How? Just look at Roy man...

Almost no armor, and his sword is thicker than his arms meaning he's not all that fast.

Now looking at DK:

Though his upper body strenght really limits his leg usage, thus his speed this animation shows that DK would still be able to punch, though in a dodgy way. Besides looking at DK's Brawl model, you can see that his legs aren't very skinny at all, they're just really short.

Both have issues with speed I guess, but one good punch to the head and Roy's dead for sure. DK might be able to take a slash or a cut I'm thinking.

http://www.coldsteel.com/twohandedgreat.html

Dk dies by Roy.

Oozaru still *****.

Look at the vid. Not saying it's going to be an easy fight, but unless he catches the sword or knocks it out somehow, muscle will still be ripped.

Spoiler

I'm actually trying to save you from what I went through w/ every1 a few pages ago. And right now they're rippin JOE! apart as I spam images...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Roy doesn't win, his sword is too heavy for him, and DK could likely take a hit, Roy cannot.

No, his sword isn't too heavy for him.

1 word, training. That was literally standard for a medieval lord.


How heavy do you think these swords are anyway?




He outspaces DK and kills him.



And no, DK can't really take hits from a greatsword.



This is Marth vs Ganondorf.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Exactly, how does Roy win?

 

[JOE!]

Exactly, how does Roy win?

by being a 15 year old vs a giant ape apparently.

Adum, you're a swordsman:

what would you honestly do if you were 15 years old, and had a giant ape fighting you?

(also, it never says DK is a gorilla, but rather an "ape", this is becoming like saying bowser is a turtle because Koopas are "turtle-like"...Diddy is said to be a chimp, but that is impossible as he has a tail)

 

[REL38]

(also, it never says DK is a gorilla, but rather an "ape", this is becoming like saying bowser is a turtle because Koopas are "turtle-like"...Diddy is said to be a chimp, but that is impossible as he has a tail)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkaeqZ9xM4w

Originally Said by Funky Kong

Yo Gorillas!
Go see old man Cranky,
he can help you out!

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588282/54462

=D

 

[adumbrodeus]

by being a 15 year old vs a giant ape apparently.

Adum, you're a swordsman:

what would you honestly do if you were 15 years old, and had a giant ape fighting you?

(also, it never says DK is a gorilla, but rather an "ape", this is becoming like saying bowser is a turtle because Koopas are "turtle-like"...Diddy is said to be a chimp, but that is impossible as he has a tail)

I'd die cause I had like no training at 15 (I was a good martial artist back then, but I had no sword-fighting experience, and hadn't touched Kali or fencing yet, so I'd have the spacing of a drunken cow).


With my current training, if I were 15... I have reletively little experience with greatswords (my specialty is knives, but I'm also good at rapiers) so it probably would be more difficult, but I'd still put money on killing the Ape.


I'd do exactly what I said, space. Basically I KNOW Roy wins this match-up with absolute certainty because his skillset is very close to mine and I can see DK's weaknesses very easily here and this is exactly how I'd exploit this MU myself.



Also, yea, you're convincing me more and more that DK is lol-phail, cause it's not compared to gorillas, it's compared to what proportions can possibly work, and DK is WAAAAAY too top heavy.


So, yea, I need some canonical information that establishes what he actually is, something OOC in a canonical source should do it, cause if we leave off here, DK is pretty fail and loses to all the human characters period.


Mario's insult is just that, an insult.


If there's nothing, then we gotta take phaill-DK.

 

[Nova9000]

Exactly, how does Roy win?

by being a 15 year old vs a giant ape apparently.

Adum, you're a swordsman:

what would you honestly do if you were 15 years old, and had a giant ape fighting you?

(also, it never says DK is a gorilla, but rather an "ape", this is becoming like saying bowser is a turtle because Koopas are "turtle-like"...Diddy is said to be a chimp, but that is impossible as he has a tail)

I don't mean the stuff at the bottom but yea we really should move on...