TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[JOE!]

I never said he couldnt glide, just that he cant fly

The question is, can he utilize gliding for this?

 

[uhmuzing]

I feel that it wouldn't be right if Ridley couldn't fly. Anywyas, if we're talking about Meta, than he could probably fly, if we are assuming he's normal Ridley, there's just no way he could fly with wings like that. Wings really need to be longer than he is to support flight.

 

[JOE!]

^ on earth

Anywho, Meta Ridley would be too unmatched due to tech helping him and metal skin, etc

Speaking of, doesnt Ray have armored skin?

 

[uhmuzing]

Just to be sure I heard right - Are we using Meta Ridley, or not?

Some of Ray's moves suggest he has armored skin, but I think its more likely to be just thick and hard-to-penetrate skin. Same with Ridley.

 

[JOE!]

Ridley's skin seems soft compared to Ray's...

anywho, we're using normal Ridley

 

[adumbrodeus]

I never said he couldnt glide, just that he cant fly

The question is, can he utilize gliding for this?

Jump to glide really means improved mobility. Again, it's gonna depend on the terrian, but the thing is, with good terrian, it'll allow him to utilize hit and run tactics against Rayquaza which'll tip the match-up very firmly in his favor.


Rayquaza... honestly, I don't think leaping will help much, he isn't built to glide unlike some other snakes (he moves like a snake, and his body mechanics aren't built like a snake), and honestly, snakes aren't built to leap upwards, they just don't have the biology to do it well.

Remember the lucario dicsussion, how his legs were built for leaping because of the massive concentration of muscles in his upper leg (also kicking)? Rayquaza's the opposite, his muscle mass is gonna be evenly spread out.

If he has fire breath, he's probably got hydrogen in his body, and that's gonna help, but he's not gonna be much of a leaper.

^ on earth

Anywho, Meta Ridley would be too unmatched due to tech helping him and metal skin, etc

Speaking of, doesnt Ray have armored skin?

fair enough.

They both have scales.

Ridley, being built to glide is gonna definately have lighter scales though.

 

[uhmuzing]

Okay then, for now, I vote Rayquaza for a few reasons. One of the most glaring ones is his extremely weak neck. That'd take nothing more than a good bite to kill instantly. Secondly, rayquaza's unique build could allow him to open options through Ridley's defenses. And thirdly, and similarly to the first reason, Ridley has other frail parts of his body - his head, wings, arms, legs. Rayquaza, while being frail himself does not have the same critical weaknesses as Ridley.

 

[JOE!]

Ray is kinda frail, but is he tougher compared to Ridley?

 

[uhmuzing]

Ray is kinda frail, but is he tougher compared to Ridley?

I think so. Look at this picture.

Look at his head and neck, first off. They are extremely vulnerable, whereas Ray, though still vulnerable, is not as critical.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ray is kinda frail, but is he tougher compared to Ridley?

Definately.


Honestly though, it depends on the enviroment for this one, if Ridley has enough room to glide properly, with only Ray's limited anti-aerial options, Ray's gonna be out of luck.


Ridley will just keep doing strafing runs, and since he's the mobile one, it gonna be impossible for Ray to keep concentrated fire on him while he's in the air.


Not to mention, he can dive-bomb Ray, and he can sustain reletively little damage if he jukes at the last minute so only the claws make contact.



Basically, Ridley's advantage, except in constricted terrian (and judgeing by their size, only rock formations are gonna pose a threat).



Of course, if Rayquaza grabs him, all bets are off.

 

[uhmuzing]

The thing is, though, that if Ridley dives at rayquaza, he takes that chance of being grabbed. There's also alot to grab onto.

EDIT: Here's a pic of rayquaza to compare the Ridley one with -

 

[JOE!]

Definatly, if Ray bites Ridley even once, thats neough to wrap coils.

Game over Ridley

 

[adumbrodeus]

The thing is, though, that if Ridley dives at rayquaza, he takes that chance of being grabbed. There's also alot to grab onto.

Plasma breath is gonna be the main weapon here, gradually cook Rayquaza by winning a lot of exchanges.

Since Ridley will be in the air, with a heck of a lot more control on his location (snake can be fast, but they're rather telegraphed whereas Gliders and fliers can constantly change their flightpath) he'll be able to plasmabreath Rayquazza very consistently.


Since Plasma breath is by definition, a heck of a lot hotter then flame breath, war of attritution, but combination of superior breath weapon and more hits, we'll wear down Rayquaza.


Yes, dive-bombing is risky, it'd be more of a finisher move then anything else probably, but it's also very fast, pure speed is gonna make it difficult to punish. Oddly enough, Ridley sending his entire mass (instead of dive-clawing) is gonna be safer, even though he'll take recoil, impossible to grab due to pushback unless he misses.

 

[uhmuzing]

Plasma breath is gonna be the main weapon here, gradually cook Rayquaza by winning a lot of exchanges.

Since Ridley will be in the air, with a heck of a lot more control on his location (snake can be fast, but they're rather telegraphed whereas Gliders and fliers can constantly change their flightpath) he'll be able to plasmabreath Rayquazza very consistently.

That's truth, but let's not forget that rayquaza has an above-average speed stat and is capable of evading sometimes. Also, it takes alot of energy to fire something as powerful as that from your mouth. Ridley certainly can't spam that to death.

Yes, dive-bombing is risky, it'd be more of a finisher move then anything else probably, but it's also very fast, pure speed is gonna make it difficult to punish. Oddly enough, Ridley sending his entire mass (instead of dive-clawing) is gonna be safer, even though he'll take recoil, impossible to grab due to pushback unless he misses.

I disagree; it is not impossible to grab, or even that difficult. Ray can see him coming, Ridley's not that fast. Ray can grab onto his wings, neck, arms, legs. or tail. Its not as hard as you say so.

 

[JOE!]

The problem with the ridley glide-by is how accurate can he be?

He is constantly falling while gliding, he doesnt have powered flight here.

Therefor, he is at the mercy of aerodynamics, if his head moves, his whole body does due to the size of that sucker...

 

[Pr0phetic]

Rayquaza. Faster in the air and on the ground, much larger, and regardless of special attack, is stronger.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's truth, but let's not forget that rayquaza has an above-average speed stat and is capable of evading sometimes. Also, it takes alot of energy to fire something as powerful as that from your mouth. Ridley certainly can't spam that to death.

Unfortunately, the Rayquaza we're using has drastically different abilities then in pokemon.

Furthermore, while he CAN be a fast Snake, Snake's movements are rather easy to see because of the way snakes are required to move.

Here's a vid to illustrate.

They really don't have a way to juke consistently.


As for the Plasma breath, unless Rayquaza is drastically more heat-resistent then Ridley (which is unlikely because Ridley has the hotter breath weapon, and therefore is probably adapted for hotter enviroments), spamming it will do a lot more damage.

I disagree; it is not impossible to grab, or even that difficult. Ray can see him coming, Ridley's not that fast. Ray can grab onto his wings, neck, arms, legs. or tail. Its not as hard as you say so.

Actually, you're mis-understanding.

It has a TON of force and Rayquaza is pretty like reletively speaking. If Ridley hits a dive-bomb, Rayquaza won't be anywhere near close enough to grab.


If he claws, it's possible to catch the tails or something as he passes, but difficult.

The problem with the ridley glide-by is how accurate can he be?

He is constantly falling while gliding, he doesnt have powered flight here.

Therefor, he is at the mercy of aerodynamics, if his head moves, his whole body does due to the size of that sucker...

Yes, but his wings have more control, by adjusting his wings he can outwiegh the change or (more likely) use them in tandem. The aerodynamics still come into play in flight, so he's not gonna be foreign to them, and if you look at his flight style, flying is mainly to gain height, most of his movement is gliding (which is body is more adapted for anyway) with intermittent flaps to maintain height.

 

[JOE!]

updated OP

EDIT:

His wings are allready diminutive for earth-flight, would they help in earth-glide?

EDIT2:

Ray is a snake like animal, meaning he can dodge effectivley by moving his whole body out of the way, while havign a portion still in place to attack...

If he dodges a divebomb, what would be his options?

Will ridley kill himself on the ground?

 

[adumbrodeus]

updated OP

EDIT:

His wings are allready diminutive for earth-flight, would they help in earth-glide?

Actually, they're proportioned pretty well if we're thinking pterodactyl.

The artistic shots and the 2D renditions don't show it off well, but he's got a really nice wingspan. He's just too heavy for it to be enough (he'd have to be larger with hydrogen sacs).


Yes, that is meta ridley, but since it's just cybernetic enhancements built on existing body matter, his wingspan should be the same. Especially since 2d portrayals of his wingspan are similarly dimitive.

 

[JOE!]

yeah, meta ridley's wings are more than able to support him...

but is there any evidence of normal ridley having wings of that magnitude?

 

[adumbrodeus]

yeah, meta ridley's wings are more than able to support him...

The point is, they're not larger, the 2D portrayals and most official artwork has both with small wings.

Regular ridley just doesn't have 3D portrayals (except the non-cannonical Brawl, which drastically expands his body size compared to meta ridley, which is ridiculous, but gives the same wingspan), but based on the pattern, plus the character concept, their wingspan should be the same.

 

[uhmuzing]

As for the Plasma breath, unless Rayquaza is drastically more heat-resistent then Ridley (which is unlikely because Ridley has the hotter breath weapon, and therefore is probably adapted for hotter enviroments), spamming it will do a lot more damage.

Spamming it would do alot of damage, if he could. Realistically, Ridley shouldn't be able to use it very often because he doesn't have much of a place to store that kind of energy. Firing something so powerful, so fast takes an enormous amount of energy, an amount that is unrealistic for Ridley to use very often.

It should be noted that while Ray is bound to the physics of a snake, he is capable of standing up off part of his body. His spine seems to have an unusual amount of support, that while not neccesarily helping his movement, will help him make a stand against Ridley's diving.

Actually, you're mis-understanding.

It has a TON of force and Rayquaza is pretty like reletively speaking. If Ridley hits a dive-bomb, Rayquaza won't be anywhere near close enough to grab.


If he claws, it's possible to catch the tails or something as he passes, but difficult.

Rayquaza isn't unable to dodge this. It doesn't take a complete sidestep to be in the range of Ridley's wing or neck, and Ridley only has to make a mistake to be grounded and dealt with.

The recoil can effect Ridley pretty severely; he's not built overly muscular and is very thin. Rayquaza could retaliate against Ridley fairly easy if that happens, and again, it only takes a grab to end this. Ridley's figure has too many weak points and isn't fit to combat something like rayquaza directly. When diving, Ridley takes much more risk than Ray.

 

[JOE!]

So ridley ahs the same wings as shown in Prime?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Spamming it would do alot of damage, if he could. Realistically, Ridley shouldn't be able to use it very often because he doesn't have much of a place to store that kind of energy. Firing something so powerful, so fast takes an enormous amount of energy, an amount that is unrealistic for Ridley to use very often.

It should be noted that while Ray is bound to the physics of a snake, he is capable of standing up off part of his body. His spine seems to have an unusual amount of support, that while not neccesarily helping his movement, will help him make a stand against Ridley's diving.

True, and true, but I sort of meant spamming it in the sense that we use spam in brawl, he'd be using it as often as he could, but his primary trick would be aerial mobility, and then when it was opportune, he'd use it. Also, it does take a fair amount of time to charge, he can be reletively unmolested when gliding at enough range.

Rayquaza isn't unable to dodge this. It doesn't take a complete sidestep to be in the range of Ridley's wing or neck, and Ridley only has to make a mistake to be grounded and dealt with.

The recoil can effect Ridley pretty severely; he's not built overly muscular and is very thin. Rayquaza could retaliate against Ridley fairly easy if that happens, and again, it only takes a grab to end this. Ridley's figure has too many weak points and isn't fit to combat something like rayquaza directly. When diving, Ridley takes much more risk than Ray.

Again, true, it was a high risk, high reward option period.

But on hit, it's not gonna be countered.

Aim to impact with center of mass or top of head when it against body to brace it (he's got a head that's designed to take this kind of impact, but not against something so big).

So ridley ahs the same wings as shown in Prime?

Yea, that should be our assumed wingspan and bodily proportions.

 

[uhmuzing]

Ridley's body will be shaken by this impact, whether or not he hits, mostly because of his neck and large head. Another thing is that Ridley is not that large mass-wise.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Regardless of if his head was made for impact, his neck is definetly not.

Lol, part of the point I was making, if you look at the neck, it's able to fold inward, allowing him to brace his head against the rest of his body.


Edit:

Taking a second look at Ridley's wings, in prime they sort of fold up when he's grounded, giving the impression that they're a lot smaller then they actually are. Regular Ridley probably does the same.

 

[uhmuzing]

Lol, part of the point I was making, if you look at the neck, it's able to fold inward, allowing him to brace his head against the rest of his body.


Edit:

Taking a second look at Ridley's wings, in prime they sort of fold up when he's grounded, giving the impression that they're a lot smaller then they actually are.

Yes, but even if Rayquaza is going to be hit, he can decide to just completely smack Ridley's head. Rayquaza is capable of spinning around fast and hitting hard. Even if Ridley keeps his neck folded, this could break his neck.

Rayquaza isn't built to withstand alot of impact.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes, but even if Rayquaza is going to be hit, he can decide to just completely smack Ridley's head. Rayquaza is capable of spinning around fast and hitting hard. Even if Ridley keeps his neck folded, this could break his neck.

Rayquaza isn't built to withstand alot of impact.

He'd have to smack it up-wards or to the side to do that, if you take a look at his body structure, it looks like it's meant to be able to fold like that, isolate the neck, and he's good.


It's more an option then anything else, it IS high risk, high reward. If he uses this, he'd probably be using the claw attack variation more, counting on the speed ot avoid a grab.


And even though he doesn't have a ton of mass, at those speeds, he certainly has enough to cause a lot of damage.

 

[JOE!]

Ok, we've gone over attacks:

Spamming plama breath will decide a victory, but both parties have trouble hitting due to various mobility.

Divebombing can be either rewarding for Ridley, or result on a death if he misses.

Grabbing Ridley=win for Ray

Of the two, Ray is tougher, meaning he could probably take more of Ridley's attacks...but he cant really catch ridley in most cases.

Now, here is a new topic: who is smarter?

Ridley has shown smarts of sorts in the metroid series...as has Ray in the pokemon.

 

[NatP]

Ridley would win. I mean, it would be neck and neck, but ridley is faster and has more experience. Also I think that ridley is smarter than ray.

 

[kingcobra9]

i'm thinking that rayquaza is more powerfull due to the pokemon history books saying he calmed a fight to the creators of earth.

ridley actually fights stuff other than the one fight and when you fight him rayquaza is asleep alot

 

[REL38]

Ridely is the leader of the Space Pirates so that means he's got to have a working brain that goes beyound killing everything in site.

 

[Sonic on the Rocks]

Imma going for Rayquaza on this one, even if he can't fly.

Height: 23 feet (7 meters)
Weight: 455.2 lbs (206.5 kilograms)
Rayquaza is a large, green, serpentine creature with what are apparently rudder-like wings. Yellow rings run across the length of Rayquaza's body and it has an additional yellow ring on top of its head. Rayquaza has two limbs with three-clawed carpals, and two long, flat, horn-like structures on its head, with two smaller horns below them.
Covering its body are large, thick plates that are both very strong and flexible. The parts of its body that have 'rudders' appear to have thicker scales then its normal body. It's "torso" where its arms connect to its body has the thickest plating, although its arms don't appear to be very guarded. Its claws are quite large in comparison to its arms, which are thin.

Even though Rayquaza can't fly here, it can spin the parts of its body with those rudder things alot, which might help it move on the ground.

A list of moves that Rayquaza could use in a realistic setting:
Dragon Claw: "The user slashes the foe with huge, sharp claws."
Crunch: "The user crunches up the foe with sharp fangs." It might be hard to land on Ridley, unless Rayquaza grabs him. Rayquaza has two LARGE fangs.
Outrage: "The user rampages and attacks for two to three turns. However, it then becomes confused." Rayquaza basically goes nuts, thrashing its body around.
Roar: Rayquaza roars, as an intimidation tactic.
Toxic: "A move that leaves the target badly poisoned. Its poison damage worsens every turn." Rayquaza is snake-like and has large fangs. It's not unlikely that it could have poison glands. In the games, Toxic is basicaly shooting a wad of posion at the enemy.
Frustration: "A full-power attack that grows more powerful the less the user likes its Trainer." Since there's no trainer, could this be translated as getting pissed at Ridley?
Brick Break: "The user attacks with tough fists, etc."
Flamethrower: "The foe is scorched with an intense jet of fire." I keep hearing things about Hydrogen gas, so this isn't all that unlikely.
Fire Blast:: "The foe is attacked with an intense blast of all-consuming fire." See above. This is just more a large fireball then a jet of flame.
Fling: "The user flings its held item at the foe to attack." There's no reason why Rayquaza couldn't be holding an item. In this instance, the best item would be the Iron Ball. If Rayquaza hits Ridley with something heavy, it could cripple him.
Giga Impact: "The user charges at the foe using every bit of its power. The user must rest on the next turn." This attack is pretty much Tackle on steroids. Here, this would be Rayquaza rushing at Ridley and smashing into him with its full 23-foot-long 450-pound self.
Endure: "The user endures any attack, leaving 1 HP. It's chance of failing rises if used in sucession."
Gyro Ball: "The user tackles the foe with a high-speed spin." Eh, mabye. Rayquaza is flexible and has those wierd rudder things.
Strength: "The foe is slugged with a punch thrown at maximum power. It can also be used to move boulders." Rayquaza has some big claws.
Rock Smash: "The user slugs the foe with a shattering punch. It can also smash boulders." And Ridley's hollow bones.
Body Slam: "The user drops onto the foe with its full body weight."
Double-Edge: "A reckless, life-risking tackle. It also damages the user by a fairly large amount, however."
Iron Head: "The foe slams the target with its steel-hard head." Rayquaza's scales look pretty hard. It's not actually steel, it's just very hard.
Uproar: "The user attacks in an uproar for two to five turns."

Additionally, it could probably use Tail Whip, for massive damge.

Although Ridley is intelligent, Rayquaza isn't stupid either. It's smart enough to dodge things and take advantage of openings. In terms of experience, according to the Pokedex Rayquaza has lived in the Ozone Layer for several hundred million years, so...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, we've gone over attacks:

Spamming plama breath will decide a victory, but both parties have trouble hitting due to various mobility.

Divebombing can be either rewarding for Ridley, or result on a death if he misses.

Grabbing Ridley=win for Ray

Of the two, Ray is tougher, meaning he could probably take more of Ridley's attacks...but he cant really catch ridley in most cases.

Now, here is a new topic: who is smarter?

Ridley has shown smarts of sorts in the metroid series...as has Ray in the pokemon.

Two things:

Spamming: Note that Ridley's got a more powerful breath weapon per hit (plasma is hotter then fire), and that Ridley's mobility is more effective (for evidence, check the snake movement video).


Also, note that Ridley can dive-bomb two ways, impact with head, or go just above and rake with Claws. Both have their risks, but Ridley can decide which to do at the last moment.



As for intellect, this is a toughy. Rayquaza is probably smarter overall, but hasn't really shown any special tactical proficency. Ridley has shown a great deal of tactical ability, but it's doubtful he's as smart overall as Rayqyaza.

It's important to note that tactical proficency is the most important thing here, can Rayquaza's general smarts overcome Ridley's tactical superiority?

 

[uhmuzing]

I hate to say it, but if its a question of intelligence, Ridley has it there. While rayquaza is an intelligent pokemon, he hasn't evolved to the level of Ridley, who is the leader of the Space Pirates and has learned how to make himself recover from death and terrorize the galaxy.

EDIT: Ridley's tactical ability is better than rayquaza's and is therefore more helpful to him. Though, I still don't think Ridley has the advantage here....

 

[smashbot226]

Has anyone taken into account that Rayquaza could Dive underwater or Dig into the ground? Like he could in Brawl/Pokemon? It's physically possible, considering Ray spins his body like a drill, burrowing into the ground, and then drilling outward.

Besides that, Rayquaza is more of a snake- a long, yet comparatively thin target, while Ridley is a big dude himself. They both have smarts, strength, and speed. So it really comes down to capabilities with their powers.

Ridley can fly, has his breath, and fangs/talons. Rayquaza, however, has much more at his disposal than Ridley; like Sonic On The Rocks said, he has a variety of moves that can catch Ridley off guard.

Say, this boss stuff is pretty cool.

NEXT ONE COULD BE PORKY VS. PETEY PIRHANA.

 

[uhmuzing]

Here is a good picture of Ridley:

And Rayquaza:

Now, Ridley can cause alot of damage when he dives, and although it is risky, it also "high reward." However, if he misses and possibly even if he hits, he also causes damage to himself and can be shaken up alot due to his absense of size and mass. Obviously, this isn't as critical to him as it is Rayquaza if it hits, but looking at that picture above, Rayquaza is capable of fast movement and although being rather serpent-like, he can dodge attacks. His hands excel at grabbing opponents, and as there is alot to grab on Ridley, he fares better in close combat. This makes Ridley keep his distance and resort to long-ranged blast beams. As stated earlier however, these take alot of time to prepare and cost alot of energy to fire, energy which Ridley desparately needs to keep airborne and distant. He also has little place to store that energy and it is unrealistic for him to fire more than one in a short amount of time. This, as well as fighting gravity and flying fast all take a toll on his strength and abilities, while Ray wastes little energy.

 

[kingcobra9]

rayquaza has enormous amounts of energy that flying shooting repeated beams and fighting will take little effort

apparently ridley needs a lot more effort to just be there and fight so rayquaza can probably out last him

i never played metroid but if ridley came back to life or was it just came back from a samus defeat

 

[JOE!]

Hold the phone, Ray has poison?

If he can spit that, and its sticky....that could mean a grounded Ridley...

also, compared to Ridley, how much nrg does it take for Ray to blast?

 

[smashbot226]

Wow. Ray takes this one with pride. Even if Ridley tries a divebomb, he'd have to fly a respectable feet up and even then, Rayquaza can see the attack coming and can snake out of the way of Ridley's inaccurate dive, and when he lands, Ray can quickly strike back.