Talking points from Pound 4

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Well, we want to be able to do stuff after fair. As it stands Marth cannot combo that well after fair unless he lands and jumps again in between hits. This really IS NOT MARTH'S STYLE.

Making Marth floatier again will at least give him more airtime to wait for that extra lag to be over. Untipped fairs will probably be useless out of shffl's though <_<.

Marth's style is spacing. Unlike Ike, Marth isn't Fair+.

SHFFLing a Fair is still just as good as it was before. You can tipper it, and the shieldstun allows for a free anything.

Considering he has more moves than Fair, I think he's fine. >.> Getting SHDF'd across the stage into Dair multiple times isn't fun, nor does he NEED it.

Try SideB to Fair. Works just as good. And guess what? It's actually FASTER than SHDF.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Honestly, you've just missed the point of every Marth player (lol) that has come in here entirely.
It's not about how good it is, or if he's still viable. Anyone making the point that Marth+ is bad at this stage in the metagame is simply wrong.

The problem is that he doesn't feel like Marth. If you're going to argue a point, argue with that one.

Arguing past each other will get you nowhere.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Explain how he doesn't feel like the type of character he is or has been. I barely touch Marth to know too much about him, but from my experience in Near Gold he feels absolutely FINE.

Because all I've seen from the past 3 pages, are Fair complaints, which apparently, makes up Marth's playstyle.

Concerns me about how we might turn to previous adventures of changing something that doesn't need to be changed, then it gets out of hand.

 

[Bandit]

You haven't read it thoroughly then.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth's style is spacing. Unlike Ike, Marth isn't Fair+.

That's Marth's DEFENSE. What do you think he does when he lands a combo starter? He juggles them with uair, fair, and sometimes nair. MOSTLY FAIR. Do you know why? Because fair's varying trajectories (tipping and not tipping) allows for the most control in the combo, letting Marth chose between sending the opponent up so he can follow up platforms for damage, or sending the opponent forward and down so he can finish the combo.

However, this is all done with Marth spending most of his time higher in the air. Sffl combos only work on fast fallers, against midweights his combos consist mostly of full hops and landing on platforms.

Believe it or not, Marth is not all about spacing pokes to land little bits of damage. Marth prefers NOT to reset the situation after a hit, he likes to stay on top of his opponent after his combo. He tries to end his combos in tech chases, edgeguards, or juggle traps, INSTEAD of just swatting them out again. Spacing is only what he uses to GET THE OPENING HIT, but once that's done he's supposed to be all over you and not let off.

SHFFLing a Fair is still just as good as it was before. You can tipper it, and the shieldstun allows for a free anything.

We're not talking about his approach. We've never been concerned about it as an approach. SHDF was a HORRIBLE approach and a BAD spacing tactic. But double aerials were useful IN COMBOS. Full hop double fair was certainly too safe on defense to be considered balanced, but it was also his main combo tactic and in that respect was far from broken (he's not the only character who whas combos like that <_<).

Considering he has more moves than Fair, I think he's fine. >.> Getting SHDF'd across the stage into Dair multiple times isn't fun, nor does he NEED it.

That combo really doesn't work for more than like 1 itteration. However, Short hop fair->uair->uptilt->ect was a pretty nice little combo. Or mixing it up with tipped fairs on the way down so that you could continue with fullhopped fairs next. Or a bunch of other little things that you could do like fair->double jump in order to land on platforms more quickly.

There are plenty of things that other characters have that they don't NEED. But the characters CAME WITH THEM and since they're not GAME BREAKING they're not being removed. The only "game breaking" (and really, it's matchup breaking, not game breaking) part of Marth's fair was it's safety out of a fullhop. No other defensive aspect of it was particularly broken, nor was ANY offensive aspect of it broken.

Good yes, but not good enough to be taken away.

Try SideB to Fair. Works just as good. And guess what? It's actually FASTER than SHDF.

Side B does not combo into fair. Side B ONLY combos into side B, and is otherwise unsafe on hit. Looks like someone who doesn't play Marth is telling us what Marth is supposed to be <_<

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

You haven't read it thoroughly then.

I just read it for the third time. INCLUDING Viet's wall of text. And I liked it too. =/

I'm trying to...cooperate (****) with what you have, DS. Maybe it doesn't combo, but try using that instead. It eats ADs and puts you in a great position.

I haven't seen enough of Marth past *RC1, ironically, to see how severely Marth's combo game was apparently crippled. To me, it seems fine. I could go dig into random YT videos and watch for myself, but I'd rather fight one than watch (or play as) one (looks at P4 vids and other crap). I wish I could explain better, but I'm mentally challenged. ;_;

 

[Bandit]

Most Marth mains could careless about double fair.

What they care about his that he's not floaty anymore, the blade is the better spot on the sword than the tip, and his playstyle is similar to Roy from melee. Veril will not allow in the double fair if it can be helped, but the BR is looking into physics changes to bring back the feel of Marth.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Physics changes are a nice start. If fair's not going to be as fast as it was before, then Marth needs more air time to basically still get the moves out.

I think that most people actually don't hate the fact that Marth COULD do double aerials out of sh and full hops, it was that he could do them so QUICKLY. Surely nobody would mind him just having a slower version of what he had before right?

Most Marth players would be fine with that, we just want Marth to feel fluid again. A large part of Marth's fluidity was the sheer NUMBER of aerials he could do before landing again. They don't neccesarily have to be as fast as before, he just has to be able to do them.

In this way, the punishment window for fair opens up just like Veril wanted. Though 5 frames right off the end is a bit much. Couldn't it be like 1 off of startup and 3 off the end or something? Fullhop Fair->uair/nair/dair/bair wasn't exactly the problem, it was Fullhop fair->fair.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Most Marth mains could careless about double fair.

What they care about his that he's not floaty anymore.

the physics don't feel that wrong at all in my eyes, it's mostly that you changed Marth's gameplay by removing the SHDF.
And you can give me as much god****ed data about his new comboes as you want, i don't care.

Might want to let him in on this. And I know he's not the only one who thinks like this.

 

[The Cape]

So we have two differing schools of thought. Meaning we change one thing and the other group complains and vice versa. Can we get a consensus on the Marth mains here?

 

[Dark Sonic]

The point is this.

When Marth had his fast fair, the physics were fine. But when you slowed down the fair, then the physics hampered him because he doesn't have enough airtime to get his moves out (since his bread and butter ariel is slower). So now the Marth mains want the physics changed to compensate and help get rid of this "Roy" feel. The slower fair forces Marth's game to be more about shffling since he just can't get them out as fast when he's in the air (hint, we dont' WANT Marth's game to be about shffling).

My suggested compromise is this.

1. Adjust the nerf itself so that part of the nerf is on the begining of fair and part is on the end (1 on the front and 3 or 4 on the end). This is to let fair at least flow into OTHER moves better, even if fair->fair isn't as good. Or you can give Fair IASA into his other moves besides fair (since only fair->fair was the problem right?)

AND

2. Make Marth a little bit floatier so he has more airtime to work with this new fair. SH double aerials were never a problem with Marth, so there's no reason that we can't have a fix that includes them. And more airtime would allow him to use fair in pretty much the same ways, just less effectively. His position after the fair is over would be the same, it would just take a little longer. Fair camping wouldn't work as well because of the longer punishment window, but everything else would be roughly the same (edgeguarding with fair would work the same, comboing with fair would be tighter, but should still work, ect, ect).

I guess I'll run this by the Marth boards and make sure we're all on the same page though, just to be sure.

 

[Bandit]

(Disclaimer: I don't know if this has been implimented already or not on Marth)

Admittedly, if you just put TP on his sword for fair, he wouldn't be able to just camp SHDF all day even if he had it. Projectile people would eat him alive if he did that. I think that's my biggest beef with SHDF is that he could camp that against everyone on the cast without weakness.

He has a crazy good offense, and giving him SHDF will give him back his wall of defense.
He would be a complete character who could do both with little weakness other than recovery. He already has disjointed range, quick kill moves (utilt anyone), and a solid defense.

All of Ike's aerials have TP. Just sayin'.

 

[JCaesar]

I think it's been agreed by pretty much everyone that SHDF is a pretty bad defensive tactic. That's not what this is about.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

He has a crazy good offense, and giving him SHDF will give him back his wall of defense.
He would be a complete character who could do both with little weakness other than recovery. He already has disjointed range, quick kill moves (utilt anyone), and a solid defense.

I wish I could say "OLOL NEW DIDDY" but "quick kill moves" and "disjointed range" threw it off.
imad

 

[JCaesar]

You forgot "failproof approach options" and "every attack autocombos"

Oh wait...

 

[Dark Sonic]

lol

Btw I do have one other change I have beefs with.

Sonic's d-throw. Throws were reworked in general right? Well...Sonic's d-throw is still not good for tech chasing (which is kind of what it's supposed to do right?). DI the throw down and tech (think melee Fox d-throw timing). The result is you tech right in front of Sonic (like 2 inches from where you were thrown). It actually gives the opponent a frame advantage <_<

 

[Bandit]

Dark Sonic...

Be happy you have a tech chase throw (or a reason to grab). Zelda has 0.

Just sayin'.

 

[JCaesar]

Uh Zelda actually has better followups off her dthrow than Sonic does. She at least has frame advantage, and guaranteed followups from bad DI. Sonic doesn't.

Just sayin'.

Sonic does have other useful throws, but none of them have followups with good DI.

 

[Bandit]

All I am saying is no one should complain about not all of their throws having a use. That was not the point of the WBR awhile ago going over the throws.

Zelda's throws: one kills, one is useful against FF'ers at certain %, and the other two are garbage. I also don't consider bad DI tech chases a legit argument. I say that because any time I screw up I hear some bearded voice beside me going "learn to DEE EYEEEEE" so when talking about moves and their potential, I have to assume everyone knows how to DI the move.

 

[adumbrodeus]

And it's not like it's possible to DI trick with Zelda's throw since they take so ****ing long to come out.


Are there any follow-ups if you predict that they'll "DI correctly"?

 

[cobaltblue]

For Zelda I thought:

Uthrow: Useless
Bthrow: Kills
Fthrow: Kills at a slightly less percent than Bthrow
Dthrow: Allows for follow ups at low percents. Like 15~30 dmg depending on di.

Comapred to Sonic:

Uthrow: Good at early percent. Not so at higher due to everyone expecting a uthrow->up b->uair combo
Bthrow: Good for mix up or ko at percents nearing 200.
Fthrow: Still haven't found a single use for this yet.
Dthrow: Gets the opponent off stage. Other wise they can just tech it in place as if you never threw them. Though they can't punish you either.

I think I would say Zelda has better throws, however Sonic has a much easier time landing them that it evens out quite nicely. This has just been my experiance as a Sonic main Zelda Second though.

 

[Shadic]

All I am saying is no one should complain about not all of their throws having a use. That was not the point of the WBR awhile ago going over the throws.

Ahem.

Principles:
•ensure that no throw is overly weakened by the beta changes. ie, nerfed to death.
•Bring all throws to the minimum advantage (average adv if its a ∂W through) of jump startup + 1.
•minimize CGs
•optimize advantage windows such that combos are not completely removed by the hitstun reduction, but still require more tech skill to execute.
•no "vestigial limbs"

Mentlegen.

 

[Bandit]

For Zelda I thought:

Uthrow: Useless
Bthrow: Kills
Fthrow: Kills at a slightly less percent than Bthrow
Dthrow: Allows for follow ups at low percents. Like 15~30 dmg depending on di.

Comapred to Sonic:

Uthrow: Good at early percent. Not so at higher due to everyone expecting a uthrow->up b->uair combo
Bthrow: Good for mix up or ko at percents nearing 200.
Fthrow: Still haven't found a single use for this yet.
Dthrow: Gets the opponent off stage. Other wise they can just tech it in place as if you never threw them. Though they can't punish you either.

I think I would say Zelda has better throws, however Sonic has a much easier time landing them that it evens out quite nicely. This has just been my experiance as a Sonic main Zelda Second though.

Uthrow - Uair follow up FF'ers only at mid% (10%)
Fthrow - Useless (11%) Does not kill
Bthrow - Kills at 130 near edge (no complaints here) (10%)
Dthrow - No follow ups with good DI (9%) Takes a long time so easily DI'ed if you know how to.

 

[Veril]

Those were my principles, not necessarily shared by everyone on the GSH development team at the time throws were being made. Removal of CGs and certain autocombos was equally important. You also have to understand that the "minimum standard" isn't good, its just not terrible. There were TERRIBLE throws that had frame disadvantages without DI or teching! A true vestigial limb would have no use in positioning, killing, or even setting up for strings. The general strength of a throw game also has to reflect the ease of getting a grab and the potential followups (like the knee or Jiggs old up-air rest...). You should keep this in mind when discussing characters like Sonic and Zelda.

Sonic's throws DO meet minimum standards, in the case of d-throw, it has a respectable advantage window when used offstage. His up-throw has a really impressive advantage window. B-throw is weight dependent so it has a much better adv when used against light characters. His f-throw has the lowest advantage, partially because of the CG potential of that throw unmodified, but it isn't below the minimum (actually its 3 above, with an initial advantage of 8). Sonic also has great options for landing the grab, notably dash-canceling.

As to Zelda... she's got a lesser version of the Jigglypuff-throw issues. If you have (more) autocombos from her throws they go from being OK to excessive. She's got up-throw up-air as a character and % dependent true combo, one of the most powerful 2 hit throw combos remaining, even considering its limited use. She also has a killing throw and the ability to harass anyone she has thrown with Din's.

 

[Bandit]

While I agree with what you said, "harass" is not a tech chase. I already harass people with dins and it is safer to do it without having to grab them first.

I'm not saying her throws garner change, but her grab is the worst in the game except for some of the tethers (which I could argue are better). Her grab game is fairly non-existant because it is difficult to get a grab and there are only 2 throws worth using which are very situational (like the rest of her moveset). The risk is not worth the reward.

Uthrow > Uair is 21% (iirc). It has great knockback potential and sets up Zelda positionally. It only works on FF'ers because that was deemed too powerful when it worked on most of the cast in the mid%.

Bthrow kills at a reasonable percentage on most of the cast.

There are no other options without the other person making a bad mistake (dthrow).

This is totally fine for her, but I use her as an example with anyone who complains that a certain throw isn't working like they want. She has 2 throws with no real use and 2 others that are situational while having the worst grab in the game. I don't feel any other character mains have a place to complain especially since I am not. (It may sound like it, but I just like to make it clear what she has).

 

[cobaltblue]

Fthrow doesn't kill Bandit? I've had good results using that at higher percents near the edge. Granted its not Bthrow and there are times when you might as well just bthrow across the level for a kill than fthrow for a kill -_-.

 

[Dark Sonic]

edit: Well, I kinda lost my SD card so...no testing for me for a while <_<

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda's fthrow will never be killing until sneeze-KO damages. Uthrow can KO before it does with DI.

Fthrow's only real use is for positioning.

The only change viable for her Dthrow is to make it like Fox's and now Ganon's dthrows. It's already been established that guaranteed aerials off throws for Zelda a foul call.

 

[MXXD123]

Alot of characters just can't seem to finish anymore, it's become alot harder to kill unless you use certain moves. Pika for instance, his usmash thunder combo barely even kills anymore... It's rediculous.

 

[Veril]

Alot of characters just can't seem to finish anymore, it's become alot harder to kill unless you use certain moves. Pika for instance, his usmash thunder combo barely even kills anymore... It's rediculous.

You are kidding about pika not having finishers, right? Right...

Thunder combos were never super reliable at killing someone with good DI. That said its completely risk free on whiff, can hit through airdodges. Pikachu is one of the few characters to retain multiple true combos into KOing moves. The high% required to actually land a kill aren't a debilitating issue for him either given his **** combo game (not to say it isn't a weakness at all, just a weakness Pikachu SHOULD have). No Johns.


Characters 6.0 longevity is a problem for maintaining the pace of the game. Characters living to very high % (as they often tend to do on most of the neutrals) means that most matchups devolve into campfests when one character is past the % range at which the other can effectively combo them. We'll probably be dealing with this via adjustments to the stage boundaries. Both Cape and I really want this to happen.

 

[CountKaiser]

So character longevity is finally going to be addressed? Good.

Me and my friend had a G&W vs. Jiggs match. Simple friendly on Lylat cruise, I think. It went for 7:30. Looking at the time drove me nuts.

 

[Alphatron]

Really looking forward to the boundary changes. I just hope my SD card will have enough room for what gets done to the stages.

 

[Revven]

We're probably just going to use the death boundary code to save space, Alphatron and any REAL stage changes (like fixed walljump below death boundary for WW) for stage.pacs.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Wouldn't adjusting the stage boundaries cause a few issues? Like multijumpers having an easier time putting people off the side, and Bowser killing everyone crazy early?

 

[Veril]

The boundary adjustments won't be that extreme.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Hmm, aside from making death boundaries, making FD smaller for example would decrease camping? I hope that would turn out well. That'd be good for making matches quicker

 

[Revven]

Kei, that'd be worse for doubles in comparison, not to mention combos on that stage would be much harder to escape due to the smaller size = less time to travel.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Good call on that, doubles never crossed my mind -_-; heh sorry

So there isn't a way to eliminate campy style? I don't see how. Although non-projectile chars will eventually approach the opponent lol

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, there most likely IS a way to eliminate campy playing to some extent, but more likely than not it won't be due to a solitary fix, such as a boundary change.

 

[Veril]

There's no way to eliminate it, but reducing boundary sizes will help immensely.