Talking points from Pound 4

[Thunderhorse+]

I can't escape the Marths. They are legion. The SHDF change has been discussed to death.

AH CAYUN'T STAWP IIIIT!!!!!!!!!

/Star Fox 64 train level reference

 

[Pierce7d]

No, you simply don't understand the character well enough to break his very precise and fragile zoning in vBrawl. I'll gladly destroy vBrawl or Brawl+ Marth (after practicing with another character for a bit).

Fair may have been a little good, but putting Uairs lag on it wasn't the way to go. Did you nerf D3's Bair?

If I play again, I suppose I will just zone with SHFFled Nairs, and play very Melee-esque with Dash Dancing and such. I had forgotten that was an important element in this game, as opposed to Brawl SHing.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Did you nerf D3's Bair?.

I hope this is rhetorical.

Yes, yes we did

 

[The Cape]

Fair
Hit: 4-8
End: 34

Up Air
Hit: 6-9
End: 45

We added 5 frames to the forward air as per the stats you see here. Its still about 6 frames faster than upair.

Secondly on block the tipper stuns for 9 frames and the hilt hit for 10 frames (while the landing lag is 7). On tipper on Luigi (lowest hitstun in the game) at 0 the fair tip stuns for 28 frames. So from shuffling this can give you up to a 21 frame advantage. Not fast enough to SHDF on hit or on block. The change was made due to the fulljump double forward air which walled entire characters.

DDD bair has the same issue and was changed in the update as I am sure it says in the first post (or was explained in this thread). He can still zone exceptionally well he however cannot do so effortlessly as there is ever so slightly a larger hole in his zoning.

The only real issue with Marth would be his physics as for some reason they were tampered with to make him heavy like Roy and that makes him feel less like Marth. SHDF has never been a good strategy in Melee, Brawl+ or (with even less hitstun and sheildstun) I would assume Brawl.

In the end, if you dont like how the game plays that perfectly fine, just dont play it. Its not for everyone and its not trying to be.

 

[5ive]

Well, I know I'm not touching Plus because you changed the base way Marth operates. No Marth player in the world is going to pick up plus now. The moment I realized I couldn't safely zone with Fair, or even execute a double Fair at all is when I stopped playing.

I give it a chance once every couple months, but every time it disappoints.

The SHDF change was implemented to limit fair camping. The change was NOT added in because we felt that SHDF was too strong of a tactic offensively. SHDF only combo'd characters at low percents, and was often punishable on hit in last iterations (RC1 and beyond). Even with SHDF present, fast falled fairs were often the better option, as it has frame advantage on block.

This isn't only seen in Brawl+, the SHDF was also very punishable in Melee. The second fair could often be shield grabbed. Marth used his fast falled fair to start combos, grabs and strings. A perfect example of this is M2K. When has he ever used SHDF ever? His game revolves around full hop air control and fast falled fairs. This is what we're trying to accomplish with 6.0 Marth.

Regarding Marth's physics, we're all in agreement he needs some tweaks - right now he's a bit too "Roy-ish." This is being addressed.

No, you simply don't understand the character well enough to break his very precise and fragile zoning in vBrawl. I'll gladly destroy vBrawl or Brawl+ Marth (after practicing with another character for a bit).

Fair may have been a little good, but putting Uairs lag on it wasn't the way to go. Did you nerf D3's Bair?

If I play again, I suppose I will just zone with SHFFled Nairs, and play very Melee-esque with Dash Dancing and such. I had forgotten that was an important element in this game, as opposed to Brawl SHing.

Our goal was to limit this zoning. You complain about not being able to zone as well so we accomplished what we wanted.

You can still zone, but to a much lesser extent.

 

[Veril]

No, you simply don't understand the character well enough to break his very precise and fragile zoning in vBrawl.

Marth's fair is one of the safest moves, on block, in this game. Learn to SHFF it, it has a positive frame advantage. There is nothing fragile about that. Its fantastic on hit as well. If you try and play like vBrawl Marth you will lose; this is a different game.

Shieldstun, hitstun, and ALR radically changed the capabilities of a move like Marth's fair. You obviously know Marth in vBrawl extremely well and I respect that. You pick up B+ once every few months... and should not in any way think that makes you an expert on any aspect of it, even Marth.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda's neutral b is supposed to reflect. It sometimes will fail to do so as a side-effect of modifications to the move. That is sloppy and unacceptable. I'm going to make sure the move behaves as intended. Zelda isn't anywhere near broke, and I HAVE played VaNz, Ryoko, and Bandit (in 4.0, 5.0, and 6.0 respectively). Ryoko did a lot of good work fixing up the princesses, but saying he broke anyone is a huge stretch and kinda unfair. Besides, no new changes are gonna happen with Zelda (unless something huge comes up) other than the neutral-b fix.

To be frank I'm not sure if the amount of invul for Zelda's Usmash is really necessary. The neutralB problem has already been isolated and is being looked into.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Well, I know I'm not touching Plus because you changed the base way Marth operates. No Marth player in the world is going to pick up plus now. The moment I realized I couldn't safely zone with Fair, or even execute a double Fair at all is when I stopped playing.

I give it a chance once every couple months, but every time it disappoints.

Yeah, although I understand their reasoning the Marth changes discouraged me from really picking up the latest Brawl+ build.

 

[Allied]

i would say marth is still good i'm sure its something more to work at

Now KIRBY *hopes kirby gets ridicious buffs like lucario* needs some changes PP

INb4"KIRBY IS SO GOOD" wrong... i get camped in brawl+ to the last second as i would in vbrawl approach problems

brb going out save a juicy data framed response for me :D

 

[JCaesar]

No free-fall up-B is the only buff Lucario has ever gotten ... everything else he's gotten has been a nerf.

 

[Bandit]

To be frank I'm not sure if the amount of invul for Zelda's Usmash is really necessary. The neutralB problem has already been isolated and is being looked into.

The only reason the invul was added was because every dair in the game could beat her Usmash, disjointed or not, after the hitbox was moved. As you already know, Usmash's true use is anti-air approaches, but it couldn't do that anymore and became nearly useless. I got to play with the Zelda before the invul... *shudder* In time, her game probably could've changed to make-up for this, but it was quite a hinderance.

-----

I played a little Marth yesterday, and I found he's still pretty easy to play. I see nothing wrong with how he is, and he is still a very solid character.

I just laugh everytime one of them complain because it will never work. Both the former and current project leader (Cape & Veril respectively) have made it pretty clear what they will and won't change about him and no amount of complaining will ever work.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

No free-fall up-B is the only buff Lucario has ever gotten ... everything else he's gotten has been a nerf.

Didn't he get a buff to his Dair so that it could link better?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Maybe Marth will be able to SHDF again after his physics get tweaked? SHDF was hardly a good zoning tactic, and it really seems like the only reason it's even out is as a side effect of you trying to remove the main threat (full hop double fairs, right?)

So, making him feel less "Royish?" By raising his shorthop and lowering his fall speed (or his upgrav if you decide to make him rise slower or something) may give him the double fair back even with the nerf. My question to you is...would you remove it again if this were to happen?

 

[The Cape]

SHDF is not the issue at all. The time frame between the two swings was the primary issue.

I can see the physics being a bit floatier as that would be good for Marth and really work best for his game. If he got back to having SHDF we would not remove it again (as its already been stated that its generally a bad idea to do anyway). And the real issue had been the time between swings on full jump double fair.

However, speaking to Veril on this matter he has already said that he would not let the SH duration change (its 40 frames right now).

 

[Dark Sonic]

I suppose it can't be helped.

Can you at least reduce the lag by 1-2 frames, or make Marth fall just a little bit slower? Right now he can't even double jump after a fair unless you're absolutely frame perfect on both ends. The nerf is supposed to only affect his zoning game, but it's unintentionally hurting his mobility as well (and don't tell me to just land and then shorthop again. The double jump is so he can follow people up platforms while still keeping his combos going)

 

[VietGeek]

Who knew this sort of suicide...was so exhausting?

Note: This post does not express the opinions and stances of anyone else other than VietGeek.

Warning: If you twist these words enough you will find that VietGeek may be whining. If you decide to do this; VietGeek's true animosity towards the human kind will be exposed via his Death Note. Please do not do this as the season finale is not set to air until a much later time.

This is a rant and a story. This wall of text will try more to explain rather than propose anything.

It's less the SHDF and more the fact that even [if] Marth wants to play mix-up games in the air as well as play offensively, the extra lag frames on his "combo" move (which its combo ability is hampered a lot from Melee anyway) makes it rather unfavorable for him to try to do anything but U-air to continue a string or combo when a foe is high in the air, or bair, although that some leaves his front exposed (unless you want to N-air...but rarely surpasses F-air unless you trying to eat airdodges).

With his current physics, I think when people say he "feels too Roy-esque" goes beyond simply the numbers. His aerial game was purposely hampered, so F-air became largely only effective on the shorthop to ground level. This hurts his true combo game as well as hurts his camping game. Two birds with one stone I suppose.

I think all of the more knowledgeable members that regular this board will understand that F-air was too overcentralizing to Marth's game. He depended on it for nearly everything. In fact, to this very day he still does. It is part of his "elegance," his ability to dominate the air, or at least come **** close to doing so. The 5-frames of lag, while numerically looks like a modest nerf, also makes Marth seem more clunky as well. Why? It's quite simple really, he uses it for everything and anything. It is as they say, a necessary evil for Marth.

Someone told me in a rather unkindly tone that if those who regulated Marth knew there was a problem with how Marth was built overall, why was he not changed? Why is it suddenly only a problem now?

The higher players that lurk this board often do not often post in it, admittedly due to the large amount of idiotic teenagers that run about, spreading their memes like poison in the air. Who contributes to this particularly nowadays? :V is dead, thus none other than VietGeek and his Mulberry Tree continue to spread poison like the ****ed do.

The Mulberry Tree is an admittedly weak metaphor to Marth. The tree in its entirety is Marth. The branches are extensions of what makes him formidable and powerful. But what is his foundation? It's F-air obviously. No matter what injustices the branches suffered (the various nerfs and tweaks to his assortment of moves), so as long as the foundation stood strong, surely all was well, no?

GSH2 was the set that usurped the this "internal balance" (and I do mean internal to Marth exclusively). GSH2 was released a month ago, take or save a few days. Only a month ago. A month ago some posters antagonized the developers of GSH2 as only a "select elite that took into their hands the tools to forge a product that only expressed their desires." A month ago was holiday seasons, and life called to some people. A month ago we had almost all forgotten a “Workshop Backroom” existed. A month ago, Pound 4 was being hyped, but had yet to happen. A month ago...was not so long ago.

Marth's F-air was tweaked to tack on 5 frames of lag to its aerial duration. It set out to do what it was designed to do: once and for all weaken F-air camping to a discernible amount. It had succeeded, with only minor reluctance (and opinions and inputs were all weighed differently).

Yet as this change settled in, the tree began to wither. All the pains and stress from months ago now seemed to cave in on the tree. The odd physics added and the Aerial Stopping Ability change only added to the clunky-ness. Marth was admitted more ground-based now, a departure from one he was known for (other than [stereotypically] being gay and the breeding ground for Wapanese, Weeaboos, and Socially-defunct peoples).

F-air was still very effective if fastfell, but it often seemed to be quite the opposite when Marth committed himself to the air. He lost his most valuable tool in air-air combat: an incredibly powerful IASA ability to link F-air into another quick aerial, as well as jump to position oneself.

It also does not help that while Marth's F-air was readjusted to send at a friendlier angle for combos as well as prevent it from being a killing move that would just repeatedly swat foes out and allow Marth to continue camping. Most people liken this to “making the F-air like Melee's.” The F-air however, isn't exactly as potent as Melee's was, and for good reason. Its stats even from just playing the game looked different. The tipper sent the opponent upwards with respectable distance at percents where in Melee the move would nudge the foe upwards to be set up for a disastrous combo instead of more-often-than-not a potential for a read more than a combo or even a string.

Why is this so? Well, it is simply how the move was “rebuilt”

These are the current stats for F-air:

F-Air: ([b]Sub Action ID: 63[/b])

Untipped Hit: [7 Dmg; 80 KBG; 35 BKB; 40°]
Tipped Hit: [9 Dmg; 87 KBG; 35 BKB; 70°]

These are the vBrawl stats of F-air:

F-Air: ([b]Sub Action ID: 63[/b])

Untipped Hit: [10 Dmg; 70 KBG; 40 BKB; (40)°]
Tipped Hit: [13 Dmg 80 KBG; 40 BKB; (40)°]

This is not so-much similar to how Melee F-air worked but certainly and drastically nerfed its knockback ability. Those who play Melee regularly will notice that both tipped and flub hits actually have low-growth hitboxes with respectable base knockback to send into tumble and/or set up for set-ups by keeping the now vulnerable foe close-by.

A notable example of this is the Toon Link B-air change introduced in GSH2:

These are the current stats for B-air:

B-air: ([b]Sub Action ID: 64[/b])

[10 Dmg; 105 KBG; 30 BKB; 60°]

These are the vBrawl stats of B-air:

B-air: ([b]Sub Action ID: 64[/b])

[10 Dmg; 117 KBG; 18 BKB; 60°]

Since damage remains static, it is a lot easier to compare this. KBG was reduced and base was increased notably (yes +12 base makes a very large difference).

Marth's F-air does take into account KBG reduction (if you attempt to mathematically compensate KBG, you'll see the new growth numbers would otherwise be in the 110's). However it reduces BKB. This means the move sends into tumble a little later. This does matter as that means the percentages at which the move would be devastating are later and the later that window becomes, the smaller that "combo" window would be as well.

Not to mention that tipper F-air has an angled of 70, which is somewhat between horizontal and vertical, which looks a lot like how Marth's F-air should send as a combo move. It however also gives the foe respectable DI options. Melee and Brawl have rather different game engines (VietGeek is not at liberty to specify), but while with no DI Marth's tipper F-air often sent upwards, for vBrawl to achieve a similar F-air in utility, it would probably have an angle similar to Toon Link's (60). 60-70 in at first-look is not too drastic, but the introduction of a variable (DI) does make a difference in what angle is better fit to serve its purpose.

So...Marth's fair was always centric to his game design. In traditional fighters, you see a lot of characters like him (the all-rounded character). These characters often have a move that is absolutely integral and all-encompassing. However due to the [almost] absurd amount of free-movement in Smash, such a move is considered good enough to be its own character. But in attempting to balance the move, you cause a myriad of other issues, some that can range from severe to very minor.

While Marth is still good, especially on platformed stages, he lost a valuable piece of his identity, the Necessary Evil that was his encompassing F-air. This more than anything affects the overall gist of how he feels when one plays him. The fact that he does not seem to decisively dominate land or air gives him the title of “Rarth.”

To touch back at how maddeningly quick this game has progressed and how the inability for a solid stable metagame to develop in that time, the decision to also stagnant changes a month before GSH2 was fleshed also affected how needlessly drawn out this issue became. Also note that this F-air change was by far the most drastic character change that occurred in GSH2.

VietGeek lost some steam as he went on, and he thinks this post is too long...but he is not good at communicating his ideas and thus says too much. He also feels a lot of repressed bitterness in how hierarchy works was finally released here...yay?

 

[ph00tbag]

What do we think of Ike's F-air? I agree with everything you mentioned in this thread and I hate to come in and ask for a change but I'm just so unsure on this move. On one hand I think it's almost a mainable move in certain matchups. It's huge wall of range, priority, ok ko potential, and overall ****.

But on the other hand it's Ike. He is a great character but far from overpowered. It's also his bread and butter. D3 had other moves that were getting outshined by b-air but they were still great moves. I'm not sure Ike has that luxury and I'm sure we don't want to major change another character.

Thoughts?

Given my opinion in the whole DDD's bair debate, it should be obvious that I don't really have a problem with Ike's fair. Moreso in the case of Ike, because it's pretty easy to get under fair for some characters.

ZZS who placed in Pound 4 Brawl+ Singles: 0!

I thought Dazwa placed.

Also, no one plays ZSS seriously except, like... me and Yeroc. The only other person I can think of that has contributed to discussions about her in the past three months or so is Phillyrider, and he mains Peach+.

She's good. But no one plays her.

 

[Veril]

However, speaking to Veril on this matter he has already said that he would not let the SH duration change (its 40 frames right now).

I'm not a tyrant. If everyone wants this change, and I mean, it looks like everyone does, it can happen. This is clearly something Marth mains are willing to leave over. While no one group can dictate the changes to their character, this argument (beyond just driving me insane) is a major point of contention within the community.

If the SH changes by at least 4 frames, SHDF will be back. The fair change is here to stay, but I am willing to compromise on Marth's physics if its absolutely necessary.

 

[JCaesar]

I thought Dazwa placed.

Also, no one plays ZSS seriously except, like... me and Yeroc. The only other person I can think of that has contributed to discussions about her in the past three months or so is Phillyrider, and he mains Peach+.

She's good. But no one plays her.

Dazwa did place but he didn't use ZSS more than a few matches.

Ryoko and Waffle also have good ZSSes, and Waffle enters MD/VA B+ tourneys pretty regularly. You can find quite a few vids of him on my youtube.

Gonzo also used to have a good ZSS but he hasn't played in months.

 

[Isatis]

I brought Brawl+ to Sassy's smashfest and he loved ZSS because, if I recall, she has a better ground game than her vBrawl counterpart, and overall she's awesome to play as according to himself.

Keep in mind Sassy is MD/VA's best ZSS that places well in a lot of vBrawl tournies around here.

 

[CT Chia]

Jigglypuff is overused (in teams at least). This is speaking more in Pokemon tier terminology, not necessarily meaning overpowered, though it's certainly a good hint. So many great teams all had a Jigglypuff that placed high. So many teams in general had a puff. Mine did as well amongst the teams, and almost all of our bracket matches (opponents) had a jiggs on their side.

 

[The Cape]

I actually talked to Glick about that.

Jiggs isnt exactly easy to just pick up and play well. I assume it was just a coincidence that there were so many jiggs mains there. Same with the whole Lucario deal. The people that played the characters are obviously good players as well or they would not have placed well.

 

[Veril]

Dapuffster + VaNz + Glick + Veril = lots of Puff at Pound 4

 

[Shadic]

Marth's F-air was tweaked to tack on 5 frames of lag to its aerial duration. It set out to do what it was designed to do: once and for all weaken F-air camping to a discernible amount. It had succeeded, with only minor reluctance (and opinions and inputs were all weighed differently).

If the SH changes by at least 4 frames, SHDF will be back. The fair change is here to stay, but I am willing to compromise on Marth's physics if its absolutely necessary.

Marth's Fair comes out on Frame 3. Frame 3 is pretty ****ing quick. Could a compromise tack on a frame (or maybe even two?) to the start up and remove that from the added-on slowdown at the end? The issue here is the SHDF, right?

Because what Viet here seems to be saying is that while the Fair is basically a character in itself, Marth is that character. There has to be ways to keep the core functionality of the move, but change it to the point where it isn't quite as powerful?

(I'm assuming that the extra five frames on the move were added to the end, which may not be the case.)

If I'm being stupid here, forgive me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wandered here, but I feel like I should weigh in. Please, nobody take this as an insult, you guys are mad cool, especially those of you I played at Pound, however... Brawl+ Marth.


I'm sort of with Pierce on this, though to a less extreme degree, I enjoy playing the game, but I really have no interest in touching marth again. In the B+ shout-out thread, I was planning on posting a side-note about how I want a new B+ main cause I really don't like how marth plays, and I would like to be involved.


I'm not suggesting a specific course of action, or even that you should change anything, but I guess adding a bit more evidence in the form of another "me too", but the simple fact is that marth doesn't feel like marth in Brawl+, and us Marth mains seem to have a particular mentality towards our character. I've personally mentioned this before in various places, but I'm a martial artist and my particular mentality about fighting is similar to marth's, which is why I gravitated towards the character. I think that a lot of other marths fell in love with his fighting style in the same way albeit for different reasons, his aerial precision and elegance.


I really think this will make it difficult for you to get marth mains to play, he's just not the type of character they want to play.


Now, I understand that you guys don't want a single character board to dictate the metagame, but on the other hand, how are you gonna get marth players without it.



Food for thought.

 

[VietGeek]

Marth's Fair comes out on Frame 3. Frame 3 is pretty ****ing quick. Could a compromise tack on a frame (or maybe even two?) to the start up and remove that from the added-on slowdown at the end? The issue here is the SHDF, right?

(I'm assuming that the extra five frames on the move were added to the end, which may not be the case.)

If I'm being stupid here, forgive me.

1. F-Air comes out on frame 4. Actions come one frame after their respective timer.

2. No it's not about SHDF, it's about me revealing the history of the world before your eyes in a 30 minute documentary on the Discovery Channel. It's something a little bigger than that (although most Marth+ players seem to not be making that connection either).

3. Yeah, the end.

4. Sure thing, someone here committed a bigger plunder anyway. Also thank you very much for reading "it"...I guess? O_O

 

[ph00tbag]

Dazwa did place but he didn't use ZSS more than a few matches.

Ryoko and Waffle also have good ZSSes, and Waffle enters MD/VA B+ tourneys pretty regularly. You can find quite a few vids of him on my youtube.

Gonzo also used to have a good ZSS but he hasn't played in months.

I recognize that there are several good ZSS+ players. I'm just saying that very few of them are actively contributing to her development. I personally think that lack of participation of ZSS mains more than anything gave her a poor showing at Pound 4+.

Her poor showing at vPound 4 was for a different reason.

I brought Brawl+ to Sassy's smashfest and he loved ZSS because, if I recall, she has a better ground game than her vBrawl counterpart, and overall she's awesome to play as according to himself.

Keep in mind Sassy is MD/VA's best ZSS that places well in a lot of vBrawl tournies around here.

She has a much better ground game jab than her vBrawl counterpart.

GHNeko can tell you all about it.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Dapuffster + VaNz + Glick + Veril = lots of Puff at Pound 4

And Darc :3

Dazwa did place but he didn't use ZSS more than a few matches.

Yeah, that was a really dumb decision on my part.

EDIT

2. Lee Martin is scary good with Lucario+

I hope he comes to more B+ tourneys. He could really push the Lucario+ metagame forward. This is good for all of us. Nothing about Lucario would justify nerfing him at this point.

He made Lucario+ seem like a solid viable character in singles, but he was a straight out monster in teams, by merely adopting his Aggrocario strategy from vBrawl...it's even better now since there's 4 stocks. Everyone hide your kids in doubles, LeeMartin is here

 

[Allied]

No free-fall up-B is the only buff Lucario has ever gotten ... everything else he's gotten has been a nerf.

Yeah which makes lucario kinda absurd now idk also lucario has the easiest combos i dont even or should have to explain

watch lee martin make combo videos out of people in fact i really want to make a combo video out of his matches likes like bubemarths combo video of fair nair to some stupid gimp and thinking its cool (no disrespect XD)

its absurd and silly

and jceasar ur mad cute :3

 

[adumbrodeus]

The brawl+ engine probably favors him, ex the hitstun and such.


Also, Lucario's a pretty good character in vbrawl anyway, but underrated.

 

[The Cape]

Lucario fair combos all day and does 3 dmg a hit.

Marth fair combos all day and does so much more >.>

Long combos != damaging combos

Lucario also has trouble with chars like Ike, Marth, Falcon, etc.

Chars that can outrange him easily below 100 and KO him relatively low.

 

[Revven]

Also Lucario has aura % and aura stock while Marth does not. Not really a good comparison character lol...

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I'm not a tyrant. If everyone wants this change, and I mean, it looks like everyone does, it can happen. This is clearly something Marth mains are willing to leave over. While no one group can dictate the changes to their character, this argument (beyond just driving me insane) is a major point of contention within the community.

I also remember the reason Marth's physics ended up the way they are now was in part due to Marth+ mains wanting Marth to fall faster in the first place (then we made him fall like a rock and they hated it, then we made physics somwhere between stone Marth and vBrawl Marth and here we are).

Now that's some sweet irony. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[PKNintendo]

Um so yeah I force fed my friends B+.

SUCCESS.

It all went like this:

Me: Guys, let's play Brawl +
Them: What's Brawl +
Me: Somewhat of a mixture of Brawl and Melee with plenty of character balance.
Them: WTF man, regular Brawl is fine.
Me: K, I'll show you how unbalanced vBrawl is.

I then proceed to own everyone with respective (ie broken) counters and abused the top tiers.

I then showed them B+ and it's changes.

By the way i'm really digging my mains in Brawl +.
(Ness, Luigi and Wario)

It's like 10X funner to use them.

 

[5ive]

Here are some opinions of various Marth players whom I asked to comment on the situation. I will keep each comment anonymous.

Well then, I'll try to explain my dislike and give some reasons:

firstly, as everybody has already noticed, this doesn't feel like Marth anymore. Marth always has had his double fair and it's been an important feature (two aerials in a SH) of his gameplay. Yeah he probably was the best character in Melee, but he is far from the best in Brawl+. SHDF has been nice for comboing, but it wasn't overpowered. And it was escapeable.

I don't really know why they even removed it - they say it's too good, but I just think they hated to play against it.

So they gave him the SHFF fair and complete new comboes, like SHFFF to Hyphen Up-Smash or SHFFF to SHFFF to SHFFF and stuff...

why the heck do they change the style of Marth? As a Marth main, you always have tried to space with the tip, right? Now it's actually the blade, so you can do those new things. And they just tell you, go and cry or learn those new techniques.

Marth lacks the same feel to his aerial play. It seems they have all been slowed down in this build. Rather than having the original tip frame advantage, he has it on the blade. While this change may make the game more balanced. Changing a character's style of pla really leaves marth players at a disadvantage.

I feel that Marth needs a change to the way he plays. The way he feels like now is very much like Roy from melee. Dependent upon shff attacks, falls fast, and good combos from not tippered attacks (I'm saying tippers, mostly fair and fsmash need to be rewarded more, or if not tippered, do less). I understand that history is of no concern to the new marth, however; marth should not play like roy, and I feel that most player would agree with me on this point.

I propose that marth should not fall as fast, and that he should be given some of his weaving ability ability back, in light of not being able to shdf. Under no circumstances should an untippered move from marth be better than a tippered one. If I recall correctly, GHNeko said that marth's fair untipped > marth's fair when tipped. So yeah, tipped > untipped always, this is just how marth works.

 

[ph00tbag]

We are starting to approach the question of how we decide who gets double aerials and who doesn't. In Brawl, they're a dime a dozen. So what do we think of their balance? We still have characters with double aerials. ZSS has double uair, I think Squirtle has double anything, MK has double dair (wtf)... When is it okay and when is it clearly broken? When is it too good to allow, and when is it too characteristic to remove?

I'm sure Veril is constantly thinking about balancing these many considerations, but 5ive's post shows that some characteristic things have a significant amount of weight.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, we want to be able to do stuff after fair. As it stands Marth cannot combo that well after fair unless he lands and jumps again in between hits. This really IS NOT MARTH'S STYLE.

Making Marth floatier again will at least give him more airtime to wait for that extra lag to be over. Untipped fairs will probably be useless out of shffl's though <_<.

And is there really NOTHING else that can be done about the fullhop fair problem? You're really hurting his offensive game with this (or rather, giving it a complete overhaul, which was really unwanted), which afaik is not the intent of the nerf. What about lowering the damage the move does (which lowers the shieldstun right?). What about decreasing his aerial acceleration (which is what allows him to reel back so far after the fair in the first place). He doesn't use his aerial acceleration that much in combos anyway, since he's just transfering his momentum from the ground to keep the combo going in a single general direction (yes it would hurt his recovery, but it's a hell of a lot better than the current situation)? Is this really the "most precise" way of addressing the core problem? (Which was fair's safety from rising during a full hop, not it's speed IN GENERAL)

 

[VietGeek]

well Dark Sonic, leaf already tried the latter option you provided. Needless to say, consensus says it didn't do the job.

Marth's fair is his necessary evil, and now we all suffer the consequences of its design.

 

[leafgreen386]

Honestly, I think lanstar had the single best idea for preserving the intent of the nerf while also preserving marth's playstyle. Put simply, instead of having IASA into anything, give marth IASA into just jump and upB on frame 34, with the global IASA coming frame 39 like it does now. This means the only thing a marth can do after FH fair is DJ, which places him high enough in the air that another character could actually get underneath him, which is a rather sore spot for marth, lacking any real way to deal with foes below him. This preserves almost every other use his fair holds, besides using it for double aerials.

I didn't mention this as one of the major things I wanted before because it doesn't seem like it has much of a chance of getting in, but I think it would go a long way toward making marth feel like marth again.

 

[CT Chia]

Dapuffster + VaNz + Glick + Veril = lots of Puff at Pound 4

+ Darc + Izumi + more i dont remember