Tales of Brawl - Innerscope has released Lloyd 2.0!

[GP&B]

Asked about sword attachment in the proper subforum. We might already have a solution, but it doesn't hurt to find out from someone who has done it before.

 

[ds22]

Here are the swords I promised:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ubzvewn2eld
You need to deselect toon_v1 to view the actual texture.

 

[GP&B]

I don't have the chance to view them right now, but I'll put them in the OP for people to try messing with. I'm assuming it has its own texture map if it has a texture which leads me to believe that the sword texture in Lloyd's texture map is for his cutscene weapon (since all characters wield their first weapon in cutscenes regardless).

I want people to try some theories with attaching the swords unless they know the method to it.

 

[ds22]

Here are the swords with (probably) there own texture map:
http://www.mediafire.com/?zjwjyyvmijo
The .brres contains both swords and are fully hexed.

 

[GP&B]

Should I replace the link or is there anything different that should be tested about these?

 

[ds22]

The new link doesn't include the common swords, but the old link doesn't include the possible texture map for the colored swords.
So place both links in possible.

 

[GP&B]

Ok, then I will do so. Plus, if we really can't get Material Blade, it could be possible to just retexturize Gagnrad. Once I look at these, I might elaborate on the download links a little more.

 

[ds22]

Very well.
Take your time to look at the swords.

 

[Zephron]

Gangrad doesn't look anything like the Material Blades besides the fact one is blue and one is red.

I'll texture them but don't expect anything eye popping.

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, a vertex is likely needed, but we are in luck to see that both are separate in addition to their texture maps.

EDIT: It seems I may have a very strong theory for attaching the swords. I need a few more confirmations in the moveset and animations and I should be able to elaborate in full. It may be related to how article hacking works (Link's bow staying out the entire time, per se, but we replace Wolf's blaster and do as such; the bones do the rest of the work).

 

[GP&B]

Double post, but I'd like to bring to attention a rather successful test, perse.

I replaced Wolf's blaster with one sword (and its texture map) and the blaster shadow with the other. They're overlapping, hence the strange texture. They currently appear in the center of the stage and only with the blaster special, likely because we need to attach them through either BBox or PSA and change the model call (in PSA of course).

 

[thanyou]

This is epic like you don't even know :D

 

[GP&B]

Ok, so it wasn't the two swords crossing over that gave weird results.

Miscellaneous lulz

Wolf's >B, noticeable for a split second. Doesn't really matter since this move won't exist anyways.

However...

Lucas' DThrow on Lloyd... and pausing doesn't truly show what it looked like. Yeah, I really hope we can fix that sometime.

 

[thanyou]

Minor update on Lloyd: I figured out what was causing the imported animations to freeze, and I'm working on a solution as of now.

 

[NOKAUBURE]

how do you do it to see the lloyd mdl0 fine?

I have the dump of ToS2. Throw hexing, I extract genis model and a remora model, but only textures and animations work. I tryed to fixing by hexing and by automatic mdl0 fix but doesnt work.

This is the remora.brres (I extracted the brres file throw hexing. brres found inside aqu210.bin in ENEMY folder of the dump)

Textures (TEX0) works fine. (CHR0) needs to change the number of frames in brawlbox. VIS0 and PLT0 seems to be messed up but works when you change the header throw hexing. The MDL0 is the only thing that i cant fix. I used the mdl0 automatic fix (headerfix,materialfix,polygonfix) and still doesnt work.

 

[GP&B]

Most (if not all) ToS2 character models (most stages work with a standard hexing) require a fix to their bone structures as well as a removal of their special bone properties before they can show up in BrawlBox. RTB is aware of this process (he fixed Lloyd), but I'm not interested in throwing work at him. When we finish Lloyd, I am hoping someone good at hexing on the team (either ds22 or thanyou) will ask RTB about the process and get somebody else up and running for our next character.

 

[seventhfonist425]

Downward Smash - Demonic Chaos
Upward Aerial - Scissor Smash
Neutral Special - Demon Fang > Double Demon Fang > Demonic Circle

Just a few things I'm curious about... why have the neutral special be a Demon Fang, then double, then Demonic Circle? If you were going for 6 demon fangs in total, wouldn't Demonic Chaos be more appropriate? I'm guessing it's just a mistake, Demonic Circle fits as the Down Smash much more than Demonic Chaos. One thing I'm thinking, is making some of these moves something like Marth's Side B move. Where you make changes in direction making different move. What I'm suggesting is, that you make it like the combination moves, like "Demonic Tiger Blade" or "Demonic Thrust" as 2 variations. Last thing, here's what I'm thinking, another possible FS could be an "Over Limit". Lloyd would just get an aura around him that lasts for a while and a bunch of his moves are either powered up, or altered. (Like Tiger Blade to Lightning Tiger Blade.)

 

[NOKAUBURE]

yes, the bone structure are messed up 0.0

PD: In some lloyd bin files, there are alot of CHR0 (animations), and cutcenes animations etc

 

[Zephron]

Don't worry seventhfonist. We're planning on doing something like that for demon fang.

Plus now that almost all the normal animations are done we can start arguing over the moveset.

I have to go to church for a couple hours but when I come back I'm going to put a video on Youtube to show you guys how far we've gotten!

 

[GP&B]

Ah, saw my mistake there. My intent on Demon Fang (subject to change and such) was just having charge to shoot more consecutively but I mixed up names. Demonic Circle should be DSmash and Demonic Chaos should be the third charge. I don't think people are particular sure of the charge idea which is fine since I threw it in without much thought.

I haven't jumped on Skype in awhile, but I'm assuming thanyou cleaned up most of the keyframes in the animations and you are hopefully setup to go then?

Also, ToP is pretty awesome except for excessive battles. Airbirds win just like Rheirds in ToS.

 

[Zephron]

Once I had no one in my party except for Keith(pretty sure that's his name, the book-summoner guy) , and I managed to kill like 4 harpies just by using his book to kill them.

It was intense. I did that all the way to the save point XD

 

[GP&B]

Klarth, and yeah I love smacking guys with that book.

 

[thanyou]

The oldest TO game I've played was TOD, I loved that game so much, in fact I was gonna do another run of it once I finished VP1

 

[Zephron]

I uploaded the video. Enjoy!

GD, please put on the OP. Ty!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BopgM-fg7AY

(The darn thing is still processing ATM, but the link should stay the same.)

 

[GP&B]

Still processing, but excellent to see this! Added to the OP and noted that it is still processing. Also, post that as a video response to ds22's Lloyd preview video (it'll likely show up under related videos too)!

The video you have requested is not available.

There's no way that video is still processing.

 

[thanyou]

What happened to the vid D:

 

[ds22]

The vid disappeared...

 

[Zephron]

It just aborted the video without my permission!???

What the heck. I tried uploading it again, same error.

I hate youtube...
I got 1080p HD too! *sad*

I'll keep trying!

 

[thanyou]

Dang

10dang

 

[GP&B]

1080p HD sounds like sex. I really hope you can get past Youtube's annoyances.

 

[Plaid02]

Hello again. I have returned. Zephron will not have internet for the next five days or something. I can relay messages from him and can give him my phone during lunch (he'll probably use my account but type with his color), but you won't get anything from him until this weekend or something. He didn't know about this beforehand, btw, so warning you was out of the question.

While I think it would be cool for Demon Fang to change into other canon moves when it's charged, that makes much less sense in terms of Brawl... Every single projectile gets stronger, goes longer, moves faster, and does more damage and hitstun (sometimes knockback, but I don't think we should do much of that) when charged. That's what I think Demon Fang should do.

For all of these crazy tech-comboing ideas out there, I'm not hugely supportive. I'd like a few of them chainable, like Demon Fang to make Demonic Tiger Blade, Demonic Thrust, and Demonic Sword Rain, Tempest to make Tempest Thrust, and Sword Rain to make Sword Rain Alpha, Beta, and Sonic Sword Rain. However, I think that the inputs should be inputted very early rather than when you actually want to execute the second move. First off, for the voices to be done right, the game has to know which audio file to use. Second, I think for something as powerful as arte chaining, the window should be pretty narrow. I still think Beast should not be chainable since it would make it substantially easier to land, which would also make it OP. I also think the chains should be pretty guaranteed but the techs chained onto the end would be weakened.

Lastly, Sword Rain should be the Dtilt. It's a little like Squirtle's dtilt, except with the cool chaining stuff to Alpha, Beta, and Sonic Thrust. It hits low... It works better as a dtilt than anything else he'd do.

 

[GP&B]

Aww, that really sucks to hear. I really hope he can get that video up though.

DF into DDF and so on was just a placeholder, really. Smash-wise, it doesn't make sense.
I think we'll have to wait for the PSA to come into play before considering input places and such. The moveset really needs to be solidified before we can start debating conditional IASA frames.

Gotta put Sword Rain somewhere and there aren't many spots left that make sense. DTilt might be a good choice.

 

[Zephron]

Youtube finally caved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJUDkOoxjBk

And I has internet again. Woot!
(I had to go to Caribou coffee for all my posts for the last 4 ish days XD)

Put that on the OP (dont worry I think it's safe )

Since we have all the movement anims done let's start discussing the moveset so we can put those attack animations on.

I'll edit this post in a bit about what I think should be changed.

 

[GP&B]

Done and done. Excellent to see the animations working. Just need some more moveset discussion and we'll be good to go.

 

[Dark Sonic]

However, I think that the inputs should be inputted very early rather than when you actually want to execute the second move.

I completely disagree with this sentiment, mostly because it makes the moves inflexible and really doesn't reflect the arte chain mechanic at all. Being able to cancel into new artes at any point in the animation is much more fitting for the brawl engine (as well as slightly easier to program).

You're forgetting that because of the brawl engine THESE ARTES WILL NOT CHAIN CORRECTLY!

First off, for the voices to be done right, the game has to know which audio file to use.

How is this even an argument? It will simply cut the voice when you move onto the next part of the chain and say the newest move, just like the Tales of Games.

Second, I think for something as powerful as arte chaining, the window should be pretty narrow.

This too doesn't make much sense to me. Unless we're making the original artes broken or something, then canceling into each other really won't be broken.

I still think Beast should not be chainable since it would make it substantially easier to land, which would also make it OP.

A low startup move being easy to land? Well yeah, that's fairly obvious. It'd be no easier to land than simply doing beast after a shffl'd fair. The only difference is now the opponent is afraid of trying to punish your other artes because they could potentially eat a beast.

I also think the chains should be pretty guaranteed but the techs chained onto the end would be weakened.

There are major balance problems with this though. None of the arte chains should be guaranteed. If the chain is guaranteed, then there's no reason not to do the whole chain (see Marth's dancing blade <_<). So the bases of the chain (and the chains themselves) would have to be fairly weak to remain balanced. This makes the option fairly mundane, since it's repetitive and only slightly effective.

A much better direction (for depth anyway) is to have them be escapable with DI, but have them be very loose with cancel timings. In this way, you can chose not to continue the arte chain and be fairly safe, just because the THREAT of continuing the arte chain is there. At the same time, the individual moves don't have to suffer, because they are not supposed to actually combo into each other in the first place (combos with would weight specific, percent specific, AND DI specific, just like every other combo in the game). There would also be risks to trying to use the whole chain (since it's not a combo, the opponent might DI out of range without you noticing, and would be able to punish the tacked on arte)

Lastly, Sword Rain should be the Dtilt. It's a little like Squirtle's dtilt, except with the cool chaining stuff to Alpha, Beta, and Sonic Thrust. It hits low... It works better as a dtilt than anything else he'd do.

Sword rain definitely makes more sense as a rapid jab than a d-tilt (considering every d-tilt in the game hits....down). You do realize that characters can have multiple jab options right? (they can have a jab combo AND a rapid jab. Which still leaves room for another move to be put on d-tilt)

 

[Plaid02]

First off, rude much?

Lol, I think I'll get over it. Honestly, I wasn't very strongly against your idea of arte chaining in the first place, and your arguments are pretty convincing. I do still have a few issues with it. Beast still seems a little sketchy to me... You might have been imagining it slightly differently than I was, because I was thinking of something with lots of early kill potential in a manner similar to Ganon's fsmash with most of the lag being on the end. The other thing I'm wondering is how is that not going to be broken for edgeguarding and shieldpoking? I thought the best idea was to have the actual beast head not actually activate unless the initial shoulder ram part of the attack connected. In the event that it doesn't trigger the beast head, though, it would still have to have lots of afterlag. Anyway, back on topic.

I'm still right about the sound part if they would be the actual single artes from the game that were combinations of two. He changed words like Demon to Demonic... We'd survive without that, though. The one thing I'm going to request in the compromise is Sword Rain. Imo, it makes an excellent dtilt. It fits there much better... As may be observed in the game, Sword Rain is actually centered very low. Furthermore, it would be able to hit the ground in the way that dtilts do... They don't necessarily have to be attacks like Tink's dtilt.

Despite your rather demeaning insinuations about my intelligence and knowledge of Brawl, I realize fully that characters can have a jab combo and a rapid jab. The only people who have separate moves for the combo and the rapid, though, are Link and Pit. I noticed that you listed Toon Link as a third in your last post, which is simply wrong.

Also, Rapid Jabs are traditionally nothing very exciting or flashing as Sword Rain should be. Sword Rain becoming Alpha and Beta in a manner similar to Dancing Blade would be awesome (and separate and different from the arte chaining mechanic). Besides, what else would you put in his dtilt slot? It makes much more sense for one of his tilts to be a cool tech than a rapid jab... They usually aren't useful anyway. Besides, it doesn't seem to match the aggressive and fluid style you envisioned for the rest of Lloyd nearly as well as my idea of the dtilt does.

 

[Zephron]

@ GameDominator06
For the link to the Youtube video, you added an extra H to the link at the beginning. Remove it please!

I noticed this is what the dash attack is set to currently:
Dash Attack - Quick Draw Slash (Ike’s Forward Special Hit)

Is that going to propel Lloyd, or is the hit part just going to be the same?
If so it shouldnt have the same lag, unless it's going to be pretty powerful.

This is what I think the tilts should be.

Forward Tilt - Tiger Blade.

The fact Lloyd jumps before the move starts makes it iffy for an aerial. Without the jump portion if Lloyd used this in the air it would look odd.
It makes sense to me that he would hit once, then twice and knock the opponent to the ground for further comboing. Just like in the game.

You would press A twice, like for Snake's forward tilt.

Downward Tilt - I agree with Plaid. Sword rain works better.

(Imagines DarkSonic cursing me) Lol.
I helped BlazBrawl get in motion, and I saw what they did for Jin. It was really fun to have like 3 more move options just in the down tilt for example. You would press down a and during the animation press B for the second chain. The second part had considerably more afterlag.

I looked at videos of Lloyd, and DarkSonic, he does center his hits low. We can adjust the hitboxes to hit lower, if you'd like.

Perhaps I just like his idea more because I was able to experience something like it ingame. Without sword rain as a dtilt, we won't be able to use the cool options like Sword Rain Beta or Alpha as Plaid includes for his moveset.

These beta and alpha moves should be added because they mix things up and make Lloyd more engaging to play and more unpredictable.


Upward Tilt - Busy. Will edit l8r.

 

[GP&B]

The dash attack will have an animation much like Ike's Quick Draw, but it won't propel him forward much. It'll be like a standard dash attack. Think of Zero Link's dash attack but a little less friction to give him some slight distance compared to Zero's putting him almost immediately to a halt.

 

[Plaid02]

I forgot to mention that I had imagined Lloyd's running attack a bit (a lot) differently from Ike's. I thought we would want it to be a bit more fluid (Ike just freaking stops), a bit faster, and not as strong. Anyway, I thought it would work really well if we just stole Marth's beamsword running attack. He sorta spins as he's running, cutting with both swords. That is exactly how I think Lloyd's running attack should be. It even emphasizes his use of both swords...

I figure this is as good a time as any to say my idea for the usmash. It's kinda like what's in the OP (I think that might have come from the moveset I made), but it's backwards. Lloyd would thrust a sword upwards, stunning and holding in place, and then slash with the other sword for the actual hit of the move. It would be very quick, by the way, and a decent but not ridiculous kill move. I may be introducing bias here, but I imagined the slash being pretty similar to Tink's usmash (main lol).

 

[GP&B]

Hey, whatever you can come up for DA that sounds more appropriate.
There's a lot of tentative or completely blank stuff that will need some inspiration. I want to get some good input on a lot of those moves in addition to stuff that is already receiving heavy debate.