Tales of Brawl - Innerscope has released Lloyd 2.0!

[GP&B]

Ah, excellent work with the .brstms. I think a few songs were missing from the CMH like The End of a Thought and The Law of Battle.

I suppose I can see how that works. I am hoping you have a suggestion for Nair when we get there because otherwise, Lloyd's UpB is kind of hopeless. If we can get a good idea on Nair, I'll move Tempest to UpB.

I'll wait on others to give some input. The funny part is, most of my play experience is in Genis while my brother played more of Lloyd and Presea. Certainly doesn't mean I wasn't paying attention although I am not as familiar with his basic combo attacks besides the standard 3-hitter. I think we're on our 5th runthrough of the game and Genis' Randomizer EX Compound is extremely OP.
I've also just started playing ToP and it has been quite fun so far.

 

[Zephron]

I've beaten ToS twice, once with Lloyd the other with Genis.

So I can see where GameDominator06 is coming from.

But I agree with Plaid that Up B should be Tempest. (Sure he's my friend but we argued about this for awhile and I truly agree.)
As for the Nair, how about use some of Lloyd's normal aerial moves?

They don't have any names, but Lloyd shouldn't have something special for everything otherwise the moveset gets complicated and weird to play. It's good to have some simple, easy to grasp moves.

We're kind of blank on the aerial section, so why don't we try that? We can come up with the damage and knockback ourselves once we start making the PSA. Lloyd has several combo options in the air for ToS.


I'll update this post later with the Team Recolor suggestions.

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, we could look at something for Nair. Once we reach Fair where I suggested Tiger Blade, we'll see what happens. Plus, there's grounded and aerial versions of specials if we wanted to.

Need some animations to work with though. A lot of this is kind of blank to me and if I can actually see some and send you a motionetc with some animations merely just to look at, it'll help a ton.

 

[Plaid02]

For his fair, I was thinking of something more like a quick spin like Ness or Peach's nair, except with swords. That might be a little difficult, but I think it'd be worth is. Next up is moving Tiger Blade to ftilt. I think that it fits much better there for a number of reasons, the first off being that it would be just plain weird as an aerial. I can't even mentally picture it looking anything like Tiger Blade. It was always performed on the ground. On a side note, since you are taking the animations from the game anyway, Tiger Rage is a better option. There's only a little bit more damage, but it looks cooler and doesn't take much longer to perform. For his fair, I think the obvious choice would be the attack he does in the air in ToS when you just jump and hit a. If I remember correctly, it was a very fair-looking slash that would fit perfectly in the style you seem to be designing Lloyd.

 

[GP&B]

Tiger Rage/Blade on FTilt... Very interesting. If I get the animations on hand (and even give them to you), I think we could piece this together very easily. You're nair idea makes me think of Marth's sort of, but two swords and a slightly different feel to it. On the other hand, I think it would be hilarious to have a sex kick with swords, but I'll find somebody that isn't Lloyd to do that.

The ToS arte reference obviously doesn't show all of the basic attacks sadly. I'm hoping to get some quick success searching for animations in the other memory dump thanyou gave me. I mean quick because I know the animations are in there, but I'm starting bottom up instead since thanyou made the file when Lloyd was party member 4 (Emil was first and he found his run animation there).

I'm sure you've played ToS2 so you know what Lloyd's run animation looks like, right? If you're thinking the same as I am, I don't particularly like it so I'm hoping we can find something (or modify Emil's run so that his left hand isn't forward) that looks similar to the ToS1 one.

 

[fleish]

Hmmmm. What about his Up B being Psi Tempest, and his Neutral Areal being a quick, normal Tempest? Sure, he'd have two Tempest moves but it'd work.

 

[fleish]

Sorry to double-post but

Tiger Rage as his Neutral Areal could also work. Kinda like Snake's.

 

[Dark Sonic]

(or modify Emil's run so that his left hand isn't forward) that looks similar to the ToS1 one.

Actually, I personally like Emil's run better, even with the hand in front. With two swords in hand that would look pretty b@d***.

 

[GP&B]

We'll have to test it with swords in place. Personally, it'll probably be better than his normal run animation.

 

[Plaid02]

I'm back again, probably with my last suggestion for a while unless you guys want me to keep going. I have a bunch more.

First off, sorry fleish, but I don't like either of those ideas. Tiger Blade (Rage is still better) fits perfectly in the spot of an ftilt since it fits the function of an ftilt well. It's quick, not very damaging, and has decent range. It could be used as a GTFO move or maybe a continuation of a combo. Having more than one tempest move seems a little iffy to me. It just seems... wrong.

Anyway, the next part is about Demon Fang. Please, please, please do not make Demon Fang change into Fierce Demon Fang and Demonic Circle. There are several reasons: Demon Fang is supposed to be used as a projectile. As I outlined in my moveset, by the way, it flies diagonally downward in the air and slides along the ground otherwise. However, both of the other moves are used for completely different reasons. Fierce Demon Fang is a short/medium range move... It would be much better if it just did more damage and stun. Even better, it should move along the ground a little faster and go a little farther distance before disappearing, but those may be harder to code. As for Demonic Circle, I have great plans for that. It is going to be.... his down smash! Think about it. It fits perfectly. It could hit both in front and behind him with the shockwave (which would be the main part of the attack), Lloyd has no other moves that could be made to hit behind him, and it would hit in front of him first with the other parts of the move (as most dsmashes do). I'll copy/paste what I wrote for the entire moveset here:

Spoiler

Down Smash: Demonic Circle. This will be very slightly altered from canon in order to make it workable, but it’s cool. First, Lloyd does a very quick slash with a short-range Demon Fang. Then, he slams the ground with his sword, unleashing a shockwave around him. The first part should be fast so the shockwave can reach behind him fast enough. The first two hits (slash and Demon Fang) are weak and stun so the third connects. The shockwave should spread around Lloyd pretty quickly (as in the game) except it will go behind him, not as far range as in the front, but still definitely there. The first two hits should be about 2% and 3% respectively and the last hit 14-15% uncharged. Should have good knockback, relatively high horizontal component. Also needs LOTS of cooldown since the startup (mostly in the front) is relatively low.

As a few last notes, I don't think his aerials should be any of his actual moves. I think his aerials should be pretty quick and weak, none of them that great. They should be usable, but unless I'm very mistaken, Lloyd is being made into a primarily ground character. He has fun combos with his tilts, his smashes are strong, etc. (at least in the moveset I wrote). This leads into my next point. Should I post the entire moveset that I wrote here at any point? Not meaning to brag, but I spent a while on it and I think it would be very good (except for the dair. It shouldn't spike).

 

[Beren Zaiga]

I know what his Final Smash should be, obvious though it is.

Falcon's Crest.


That is all.

 

[Zephron]

Lloyd's aerials don't have to suck that bad.

Consider Lucas. (My main lololol) You can be a ground character but have great ground based aerials. They're just meant for shorthops or weak spikes.

Lloyd was never an aerial person so obviously dont make them his good moves, but they should be very useful. Brawl is an aerial game; you'll never make it unless you have at least par aerials.

 

[Dark Sonic]

One reason that I don't think tiger blade should be f-tilt is that....he jumps. I think it's fairly weird for a smash character to leave the ground with ground only attacks.

Oh, and I know this is off topic but I want to ask. Does anyone know if Tales of Graces uses MLD0s?

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, I'll have to take a look at Tiger Rage's animation when I can start looking and finding stuff. I might agree if I see it up close for myself. DS does bring up that it's rather odd for a tilt to put the character mid-air. When I get the chance, I'll look for a suitable move.

I don't know what I was trying with Demon Fang. I forgot which variations threw the projectile (remember that I only observed Lloyd somewhat, but I've never actually played him too much). I love the concept of the Demon Fang being a jab reset as mentioned earlier since that is exactly what it does in his game.

You were thinking Demonic Cirlcle, too? I was just about to suggest that, haha. It fits all the attributes of a good DSmash which is quick, roll punisher, and a good GTFO move. Strength usually varies, but these qualities are generally true of most DSmashes.

It does seem like we're rooting out artes for aerials especially since we originally had nothing for his Bair, Uair, and Dair at the time. I'm trying to avoid spikes or even semi-spikes as far as aerials go. I'm more interested in his on-stage game leading to the kill, but it's not like I'm going to make his edgeguard game bad. We could still make an aerial with a gimp angle like Mario's Bair (practically horizontal) and that might even be left for Bair since it also fits the description of a common Bair.

Do it, I guarantee you that it probably has more effort put into than mine and I'd really like to see what you have.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

I vote up the idea of Tempest being Nair. It makes more sense than for it to be Up-B, since Tempest was NOT an upward attack, but an attack that simply sent you flying forward.

Saying Rising Falcon doesn't make sense for a recovery is like saying Ike's Aether doesn't either. Although Ike goes straight down and Lloyd goes forward diagonally, but he rises straight up first, and it's not impossible for him to catch the ledge once descending.

 

[Zephron]

I'm trying to avoid spikes or even semi-spikes as far as aerials go. I'm more interested in his on-stage game leading to the kill, but it's not like I'm going to make his edgeguard game bad.

Almost all characters in Brawl have SOME sort of spike. Now we don't want Lloyd to be a gimpy character. That's fine. But he needs at least a Semi Spike. Almost all characters have it and frankly its useful and generally very balanced to have such a thing.


I'm going to suggest his moves from merely a use standpoint:

Up air: Damage or combo move. low-mid damage. low knockback. (Multihit?)

Nair: Normal GTFO move. mid damage.

Fair: Combo Move, low damage low knockback. (Multihit)

Bair: Reasonably far hitting move. (Nothing big, but still useful). low- mid damage.

Dair: Semi-Spike, low damage.

 

[thanyou]

First things first, Tempest as an nair will not work, imo. It could still be controllable if it were made to be his up b, and Lloyd doesn't even have any moves that work as up b other than tempest. It would be the initial jump upward as he spins, and then you could control how he moves downward. Then he would go into special fall. If Lloyd used Tempest as he was falling, as he could were it an nair, it would look nothing like Tempest. He would just be spinning. Tell me when I can post the next change, or argue with this one until you agree with me. Kthx.

It is true that he has nothing in terms of recovery, tech wise, that'd work for him, but I just thought of something that MIGHT work; What if we give him wings for his Bup? He flies straight up, dealing no damage and you can't control it, but it'd work perfectly. He'd definitely benefit from it, since as of now, he seems to be lacking in it.

 

[Plaid02]

I vote up the idea of Tempest being Nair. It makes more sense than for it to be Up-B, since Tempest was NOT an upward attack, but an attack that simply sent you flying forward.

Saying Rising Falcon doesn't make sense for a recovery is like saying Ike's Aether doesn't either. Although Ike goes straight down and Lloyd goes forward diagonally, but he rises straight up first, and it's not impossible for him to catch the ledge once descending.

I'm going to apologize in advance for being so blunt, but you're just plain wrong. I disagree with everything you just said. Sorry.

Tempest was an upwards attack. Lloyd jumped really high. It completely ruins the integrity of the move if all Lloyd does is fall. I personally can't imagine anything that looks like Tempest where Lloyd does not jump up as much as he falls. Also, recovery would be much better with Tempest. It has a lot of upwards motion you couldn't get from Rising Falcon. On your other point, Ike's Aether makes perfect sense for a recovery since he goes straight up. Rising Falcon is almost completely sideways. Sure, he floats up a bit (diagonally backwards, not straight up, I think), but he dives downwards the same amount. It would make a perfect side b. You could use it for sideways recovery like a lot of other side b's (Ike's as well, funnily enough). On a side note, I propose Beast being moved to down b to accommodate Rising Falcon. As a last point, moving Tempest to nair serves no purpose. There aren't any more b moves that we're even trying to fit in. There's plenty of room, and Tempest fits perfectly.

Now back to the stuff I was typing before Zeph told me I'd been ninja'd.

Falcon's crest is the only FS I think I'll actually be excited for (not quite true, they all looked cool when I was watching all those videos before the game came out).

Addressing Zephron, I only meant that his aerials shouldn't be very flashy or the sort of move that makes games. I think they should still be useful. Imo, they should vary from weak to medium power and be pretty quick. He should not be able to gimp, kill, or spike with them (with exceptions on the kill part, there always are). They should be able to combo and juggle a little bit and I think his uair should have a little bit of kill potential if it's high enough and if they're at pretty high damage.



EDIT: I seem to have been ninja'd a second time without my knowledge. While the wings might work (certainly better than Rising Falcon), he never uses them in battle, and they just plain make less sense. He's not going to have his wings for the rest of the battle, and it seems less cool and more difficult. If he didn't have the obvious choice of Tempest, I'd support using his wings, but I think his b moves should be techs and Tempest is already there as the perfect choice.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Every character should be able to gimp <_<. Any time an aerial is good for air->ground combos (which I'm assuming you want) it will also be good for gimping.

Also, Rising Falcon is a terrible idea for side B imo. If anything it would make a nice down B instead (unless you guys really want counter/guardian.). On the ground he'd do the jump and the dive, while in the air he would only do the dive (WHAT? JUST LIKE THE ToS GAMES?!)

Btw, am I the only one who thinks that beast would make an amazing f-smash? That should bump basically screams "charge animation" to me. Beast also has more vertical range than Sonic Blade. The general trend in smash is for f-smashes to be able to hit a bit above you. Full charge could be hunting beast

 

[GP&B]

We always have the option of making specials different when executed on the ground and in the air. See Cloud as a good example. There's a large amount of flexibility in specials just with this, but we don't have to do them all separately. Some specials may benefit from also being the same in the air. We might be limited in projectile capabilities though and I really want to avoid pseudo-projectiles.
I'd rather morph Wolf's Blaster laser into DF and have it made on the ground rather than create a pseudo-projectile.

Jiggs and MK manage to gimp, but that's more due to their multiple jumps. Even Kirby only has Dair which isn't particularly powerful for a spike, but the multi-hit properties allow you several chances at the trajectory.

 

[Plaid02]

I was actually thinking about that. In my initial plan (which I still support), only the dive part of Rising Falcon was included when it was done aerially. I was not thinking there would be any dramatic differences beside that except for doing something with Beast. The last part of Hunting Beast is probably the best option there, giving him a falling move like a lot of other characters with a powerful ground hit and a lot of lag after. Another idea I had was doing Omega Tempest, but that didn't seem that great to me and I thought I should save those ideas for Kratos. I have some great plans for him too, but I digress (my plans for Luke from Tales of the Abyss are better, I think).

 

[Dark Sonic]

I just had a great idea for somewhat replicating the arte chain mechanic.

I think his specials should all be able to cancel into each other, or any other ground moves that are made after artes (but only cancel twice). It's not the true level 1-2-3 arte combo system from ToS, but at least it's a little something. You'd be able to do things like

tempest (up B)->rising falcon (down B)->beast (f-smash).

Now, it probably wouldn't combo since it'd be DI dependant, but it could give Lloyd a devastating mixup game.

 

[GP&B]

Ugh, I wish Kratos just randomly had a MDL0 in ToS2. We'll have to get our fix of him by using Zelos since they share a few similarities (just not good enough )

Ok, I was just looking over the ToS1 arte reference video. If we were to still charge Demon Fang, it could charge into Double DF and Demonic Chaos since it's pretty much an additional DF per charge.
Tempest does get a pretty big jump and it'll serve well for a strong horizontal recovery.
Just looked at Hunting Beast and I like the falling part. Maybe that should just be the aerial version of Beast? I'm not sure.

@DS, I'm thinking something like that. For one thing, Demon Fang should serve as a jab reset like mentioned before. Having the charge on it would allow the same mixup you can get with smash attacks (where someone won't usually ever expect a charge if you don't use them). Someone might try and spot dodge right away, but you could drop two or three as a punish.

 

[thanyou]

Oh and on the subject of demon fang, I know a guy who's great with projectiles, we can just color it white, and he'll make it look like its on the ground, since it already has the right shape we're looking for.

And @ the people wanting a new UpB; Meh, I want Tempest to be nair because it just FITS, it could be a good recovery move, but it fits as a multi hitting aerial better, which is why I proposed the wings idea, not the most practical idea, but its better than tempest UpB imo.

 

[GP&B]

We'll have to settle it somehow. Canon-wise, wings make sense. The conflict is that Tempest still seems to have properties that make it a good Nair. Dash jumps with momentum (for those playing with the momentum code) is really nice.

 

[Zephron]

Tempest seems to just fit as a horizontal recovery move to me. *shrug*

It could function as an Nair but we can't use it twice and it's 1000 times easier than your wing idea because we dont have enough articles and it would be terrible to code.

With all the options Lloyd has for moves he is limited with Up B options and there are dozens of aerial options.

Also if we're intending on making Lloyd this combo happy, he's going to need extremely low damage %'s otherwise he will be broken as heck.

We should also be reasonable with the comboing since people need a chance to get away with DI and what-not.

 

[Dark Sonic]

a chargeable special is not as great a mixup as you think <_<.

What I was referring to could be considered a much more elaborate version of Marth's dancing blade.

You'd use one of his artes, and the mixup would be in the cancel itself. Maybe you simply don't cancel it. Maybe you cancel into a high mobility arte like tempest or rising Falcon. Maybe you cancel into a chargeable special like demon fang (which itself can be canceled again before, or even after the shot/shots). The way to balance this would to make his specials generally have a lot of endlag (and I don't mean A LOT. Just a little more than the iterations of Marth's DB).

@Zephron. IMO Lloyd doesn't need to be too combo happy, he just should have a lot of movement options and have a very flexible offense. Now, obviously no one wants him to be a hit and run character like Sonic, so his offense should be fairly committed (meaning once you decide to attack, you can't back out), but still hard to predict.

Things like giving f-smash enough shield pushback to be safe on block, but making the hitbox not last too long so that it's punishable by spotdodging. Or things like giving certain moves transcendent priority (which makes them unable to stop projectiles, but at the same time they don't clank with ANY moves. Disjointed moves with TP are typically very good).

 

[Plaid02]

Ok, I was just looking over the ToS1 arte reference video. If we were to still charge Demon Fang, it could charge into Double DF and Demonic Chaos since it's pretty much an additional DF per charge.
Tempest does get a pretty big jump and it'll serve well for a strong horizontal recovery.
Just looked at Hunting Beast and I like the falling part. Maybe that should just be the aerial version of Beast? I'm not sure.

Oh and on the subject of demon fang, I know a guy who's great with projectiles, we can just color it white, and he'll make it look like its on the ground, since it already has the right shape we're looking for.

And @ the people wanting a new UpB; Meh, I want Tempest to be nair because it just FITS, it could be a good recovery move, but it fits as a multi hitting aerial better, which is why I proposed the wings idea, not the most practical idea, but its better than tempest UpB imo.

I really do not whatsoever understand the appeal of having Tempest as an nair. It doesn't fit. The upwards jumping is an integral part of Tempest. The wings would be a pretty good alternative, still not as good, but they'd be insanely difficult to do. The point would be that the path wouldn't be set. Kinda like Kirby's Final Cutter, you'd have the ability to move sideways to an extent (probably more than Kirby can) for some mobility. Another piece is that Lloyd's aerials are supposed to be a little blander and quicker, which putting Tempest as one of them would not be.

Moving on to the thing about Beast, that was what I meant. Regular Beast should be on the ground (not chargable, by the way), but it would become Hunting Beast (just the last hit) in the air.

For Demon Fang, I thought of making it Double and Chaos, but that seemed less like Brawl than making it stronger and faster. That's what every other character with a chargable projectile does, like arrows or Charge Shot. I suppose I'd survive if you just made him fire off more Demon Fangs, but it does make a little less sense in terms of Brawl. Very canon, though.

Onto the part about chaining moves, the ideas thrown out there are pretty... extravagant. I have some fun plans for Sword Rain, mostly. It would become Alpha, Beta, and possibly Sonic Sword Rain with the correctly timed inputs. Making grounded Tempest into Tempest Thrust with the right input would also work, I think. Other than that, I think Demon Fang should be able to become Demonic Tiger Blade if you hit a. Nothing should be able to combo into Beast, frankly, and I think the ones I listed are probably enough. Anyone have other ideas that wouldn't be too broken or too hard to code?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Isn't sword rain his rapid jab though? What I mean is, they likely will not get hit by those additional attacks because they'll just DI out of the jabs.

And why limit the chains to only a few moves when you can make an entire mechanic? Why no beast combos?

Artes chaining into artes has been a staple of the tales series FOREVER. Not to mention that beast is itself a level 2 arte, meaning that it's meant to be combo'd into (tempest beast itself is an arte for crying out loud).

btw, the key to making a character good is to make them fairly broken first, then tone them down. You have to remember that the artes probably won't even combo that well just because DI exists (unlike the tales series where everything combos into almost everything). Tempest Beast wouldn't be a true combo because tempest wouldn't drag the opponent down with you. But the option of throwing out beast/demonic circle/ect after it would be good for mixups.

 

[fleish]

Actually....Tiger Blade as a Forward Tilt COULD work... if you simply took out the "jump." It would still definitely look like Tiger Blade, but Lloyd would simply perform the move stepping forward. If anything it could be implemented much like Snake's Forward Tilt. Press A once and he hits them up; twice and he finishes the move (with decent knockback).

Plaid02, I think what we're getting at with some of Lloyd's techs is that they do not have to be implemented exactly how they appear in-game. In terms of Tempest, the move does not necessarily have to include the jumping-momentum like how it appears in Symphonia, but just the "spinning-slash" aspect of it. While including the jump is, yes, an integral part of the move, I think it is still recognizable as Tempest solely because of the spinning-aspect of it. Plus, if you dash, jump and then use your "nair Tempest", you get the momentum there anyway.

Think of it like Meta-Knight's nair. His works, right?

Regardless, I respect your opinion. What are some other ideas?

 

[GP&B]

Great success! I jumped ahead and just searched Lloyd's texture name in the dump and immediately started getting results. I currently got his stand and walk animations and there's much more to come.

On another note, thanyou has the animations for Emil, Marta, and Richter :D

Definitely couldn't have done this without thanyou giving me directions

 

[Beren Zaiga]

I know what his Final Smash should be, obvious though it is.

Falcon's Crest.


That is all.

Reposting.

Why not incorprate some of the secret Techs (or Artes) from the original ToS and apply them to Lloyd in Brawl?

Just a thought.

 

[Plaid02]

I think I forgot to mention that I put Sword Rain as his dtilt rather than a rapid jab. I think he doesn't need a rapid jab, and he should just have his basic 3/4-hit combo with the spinning that he did in ToS as his jab. I really like the idea of making Sword Rain link to other techs, but only the ones that were actual "combined techs" that you got later (and Alpha and Bets) if you timed certain button inputs correctly in a manner similar to dancing blade. Dark Sonic, I like the idea of doing Tempest Thrust (maybe, these seem like they'll take a lot of time to do) and Demonic Tiger Blade, maybe Demonic Thrust, but keep in mind no other characters have more than one move like this and Beast is much too powerful to string onto other techs. It's already going to be very strong...

@fleish: I also respect your opinion, but I think that we should try and make Lloyd as close to the game as possible. I think the jump in Tiger Blade (especially if it's made Tiger Rage, which I certainly think is a good idea) is doable and desirable.

Lastly, of course Falcon's Crest is the FS.

 

[thanyou]

Great success! I jumped ahead and just searched Lloyd's texture name in the dump and immediately started getting results. I currently got his stand and walk animations and there's much more to come.

On another note, thanyou has the animations for Emil, Marta, and Richter :D

Definitely couldn't have done this without thanyou giving me directions

This is definitely great news :D

You're too kind :D

 

[GP&B]

lmao you would.

 

[SqLeon]

Ugh, I wish Kratos just randomly had a MDL0 in ToS2.

Why wouldn't he, he was in the game.

 

[thanyou]

Yeah, as a head.

 

[SqLeon]

Yeah, as a head.

oh wow i didnt notice. they shoulda just put his whole body.

 

[thanyou]

I know right v.v

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think I forgot to mention that I put Sword Rain as his dtilt rather than a rapid jab. I think he doesn't need a rapid jab, and he should just have his basic 3/4-hit combo with the spinning that he did in ToS as his jab. I really like the idea of making Sword Rain link to other techs, but only the ones that were actual "combined techs" that you got later (and Alpha and Bets) if you timed certain button inputs correctly in a manner similar to dancing blade. Dark Sonic, I like the idea of doing Tempest Thrust (maybe, these seem like they'll take a lot of time to do) and Demonic Tiger Blade, maybe Demonic Thrust, but keep in mind no other characters have more than one move like this and Beast is much too powerful to string onto other techs. It's already going to be very strong....

d-tilts are supposed to hit down (as in, it's weird for d-tilts to not hit ledges). And even more, it would be a d-tilt that JUMPS?

Sword rain could be rapid jab, and the ToS 3 hit combo could just be his normal jab (there are other characters with multiple jab sets. Link, Toon Link, and Pit come to mind)

And the point about other characters not having moves like this....that's exactly the point. Lloyd wouldn't be the first character to have a mechanic entirely to himself. Though to call it a mechanic is kind of inaccurate. It's just IASA.

Marth has tipped attacks that are universally stronger than untipped attacks.

Captain Falcon, Ganon, Bowser, Diddy Kong, DDD, Kirby, and Yoshi all have command grabs (though the last 3 are hardly grabs <_<).

Peach has a float.

Lucario has aura.

Sonic can shield cancel his specials.

Sheik, Pokemon Trainer, and Samus transform into other characters.

ect.


Lloyd's special thing would be "arte chain," which really is only an elaborate form of IASA into certain moves.

Also, I need to remind you that "cancel" and "combo" are two different things. Tempest being able to interrupt into beast is not the same as tempest COMBOING into beast. Frankly, I doubt tempest will combo into anything at all with the way smash's hit system works.

Weak hits have low hitstun. That's just how hitstun works in smash. So if tempest has low knockback, it won't have enough stun to legitimately combo into beast in the first. If tempest has high knockback (enough to make it safe on it's own), then they get launched too far. And even if we did find a way to give tempest good stun with low knockback, there's still the issue of DI and even SDI, which would allow the opponent to simply be out of Beast's range at the end of tempest, regardless of what tempest itself functions as.

I'm not advocating Lloyd comboing the **** out of everyone with artes comboing into artes. Because artes comboing into artes is far too situational in the first place. What I'm advocating is artes canceling into each other to be used as feints, promoting an aggressive style of gameplay. Comboing is only what you do after you land the initial hit in the first place. What determines whether a character is campy or aggressive is HOW they land that initial hit. If we want Lloyd to be an in your face character, he should have a good shield pressure game.

Oh yeah....and tempest beast was a combined tech <_<. And they don't really need their own animations or anything, you just make all of them IASA into each other. Tempest would IASA into "beast," "sonic thrust" during it's landing lag, demon fang would IASA into "tiger blade" (whatever move ends up being tiger blade) or "Sonic Thrust" (same). Sword rain would IASA into sword rain alpha (custom animation), and that slash would IASA into the downward slash (making sword rain beta). It would also IASA into "beast" and "tiger blad" (though I guess raining tiger blade and sword rain beta are too similar).

Selective IASA isn't new to smash. Marth's d-tilt can't IASA into shield, specials, or grab (though it can IASA into "walking" which can cancel into said actions). Sonic's side B IASA's into shield, but only before full charge.The mechanic is hardly as unique as other things that exist in brawl.