Tales of Brawl - Innerscope has released Lloyd 2.0!

[Zephron]

Mainly, I'm not comfortable with having a special that changes entirely depending on whether it's used in the air or not. Even Captain Falcon/Ganondorf's, the only examples of Down-B's that change on the ground, have a thematic and movement similarity between the aerial and grounded versions. i.e. they are the same move, just used in different contexts and hence having different outcomes..

*cough*
Not the only example, yoshi's and bowser's down b change.
*/cough*

 

[Junahu]

*cough*
Not the only example, yoshi's and bowser's down b change.
*/cough*

¬_¬ I probably brought that on myself.

True, they do change. But only by as much as is neccessary to make the grounded and aerial versions behave in the same way. Both versions for both characters involve slamming into the ground from a height, which is what I'm argueing as a compromise. If Lloyd's Down-B in the air involves slamming into the ground, then it only makes sense to have the grounded version work in the same way.

 

[thanyou]

I still think that Aerial Down B should be Rising falcon/Phoenix (He does have a fire weapon equipped so I GUESS that it should be Rising phoenix.... =p) and that grounded down b can be any form of Beast, I like that idea better than it being Side B and Down b being beast in the air and on the ground.

 

[Plaid02]

Stating my opinion on the Beast/Rising Falcon debate would be redundant to the point of facepalming.

I am still, however, going to address Junahu's point. The changing of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's down b's is very similar to what would happen to Lloyd's. Their attacks normally go forward, like Beast. In the air, however, it would be weird for them to go in the same trajectory so they made it downwards. That is similar to what we're doing to Lloyd's. It would become downwards when used in the air. It requires more change to the move, but it's still not that weird.

Also, while I certainly see from whence you're coming with the idea of making it always Hunting Beast, it'd be a bit of a letdown not to have regular Beast there. I think you're right in that it's non-canon to have it change that much, but only a little, and I think it's worth it.

Moving on to Tiger Blade. Lloyd's aerials are supposed to be very simple, first off. Having Tiger Blade as an aerial is a little more complicated than I think we want his aerials to be. Also, no other character jumps in the middle of an aerial. It would be extremely weird and awkward while falling if you try and attack and Lloyd jumps. The closest amount of offset of trajectory in an aerial to that would be Snake's fair, which is nowhere near as much as Tiger Blade would have to be.

At this point, I'm pretty much abandoning my original plan of Tiger Rage being the ftilt. It's too long and fancy to make sense. Tiger Blade, however, makes perfect (rather than zero >_>) sense to me as an ftilt. While Lloyd does jump, which is not a common action for an ftilt, he's almost immediately back on the ground. Like many other ftilts, it would be very fast, pretty broad range, and great for damage racking or getting the foe to back off a bit. Low startup and end lag, not much damage... It fits pretty closely the description of an ftilt to me.

I would also like to reiterate my other point about Sonic Thrust as an fsmash. Most fsmashes are thrustlike, about that strength, and have about that hitbox and lag. While a couple of other characters with playstyles completely different from Lloyd's have broader and more powerful fsmashes (Ike, Bowser), that's really not what we want Lloyd to be.\

As for the Utilt, I'd really like to do something creative and fun (making Omega Tempest a bit like Olimar's Utilt except it happens twice, as an example), the thing that really fits Lloyd's playstyle here is a quick, low damage, highish hitstun, low knockback slash that is great for comboing. I hate to cite him again, but I thought it would be like Link or Toon Link's.

Last thing. Does everyone pretty much agree that we should use Sword Rain w/Alpha and Beta Dancing Blade-like add-ons as the dtilt? I kinda thought we did earlier, but I'd like to make sure we're on the same page... Well, no. It's pretty much established we're not quite. I'd like to make sure we're in the same chapter.

 

[chaoticyeshua]

As for Demon Fang, I think it should either be chargeable like Plaid suggests, OR be unchargeable but have a little more damage.
I don't want this to be an "okay" move. Anyone who loves Lloyd loves Demon Fang.

Why not give a certain amount of frames to press B again to make it Double Demon Fang? Sort of like Geno's forward B, if you push A a few frames before it hits, it goes from a normal projectile to a projectile that can kill. Obviously you don't want Demon Fang to kill, I was just using that as an example. Give the option to add extra recovery frames to the move to create another Demon Fang. Problem solved.

IMO, this way you can preserve a sort of "timing" aspect from the Tales series of games in a way that makes more sense for Brawl.

 

[Junahu]

I'm personally cursing the fact ToS let you assign techs to different directions, because everyone has this solid idea of which tech suits which direction, based on their own experiences playing the game.

I am still, however, going to address Junahu's point. The changing of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's down b's is very similar to what would happen to Lloyd's. Their attacks normally go forward, like Beast.

There's a difference here in that Falcon Kick trades its downwards momentum for foreward momentum when used on the ground, while Beast would not.

Tiger Blade: If Lloyd is already in the air, he wouldn't need to jump during Tiger Blade. This is the same concept as using "Tempest" in the N-air, he's already airborne, so the propulsion aspect of the move is unneccesary. And having a Tiger Blade aerial does not rule out the possibility of a Tiger Blade on a ground attack. It's probably Lloyd's most famous Tech after all.
I can understand using Tiger Blade as the F-tilt, though the jumping and the knock downwards properties of it would make for a more interesting U-tilt in my opinion.

Sonic Thrust: There are no thrusting weapon Foreward Smashes in Brawl. Ike, Marth, Ness, Lucas, Link, Toon Link, Metaknight, King Dedede, G&W, Pit, Ice Climbers and Peach all swing their weapons during their Foreward smashes.

Sword Rain: Are you saying Sword rain should be D-tilt? If anything, it makes a lot more sense as the jab itself. Flurries of strikes are a common theme in repeating jabs.
Press A, two stabs. Press A again, 3 more stabs. Press A a third time for the final thrust (or something along those lines). If you could Jab cancel that into whichever move is Tiger Blade. TA DA! Sword Rain Beta!
There's no need to have dancing blade-esque variants for move combinations that are literally one Tech added to the end of another.



Here's my current opinion of what the moveset should entail;
N-Special: Demon Fang. Unchargeable (or Chargeable for minor boosts of speed/strength)
F-Special: Sonic Thrust. Used for a spacing the opponent a small distance aways, rather than outright KOing them
U-Special: Tempest
D-Special: Rising Falcon. Slightly steeper angle when used in midair.

Jab: Sword Rain
F-Tilt: Neutral sword swing combo. Two stage attack like Snake's f-tilt, first attack being a swing, second attack being a spin
U-tilt: Tiger Blade
D-Tilt: ??
F-Smash: Beast
D-Smash: Demonic Circle
U-Smash: ??
N-Air: Tempest. No jumping, weaker than canonical Tech
F-Air: Tiger Rage. No jumping, weaker than canonical Tech
D-Air: Plummeting/slamming part of Hunting Beast
B-Air: ??
U-Air: ??

F-Throw: First hit from Foreward sword swing combo, followed by a short Tiger Blade?
D-Throw: Fierce Demon Fang?
U-Throw: First hit from Upward sword swing combo (which happens to be a jumping slash)?
B-Throw: ??

 

[Fen__]

How about this (in regards to Beast/Rising Falcon):

1. Both moves are going to be made either way.
2. The only argument is which of the two spots each should go in.
3. Changing between these two spots is a simple copy-paste job.

Solution: Stop bickering over preference and move on for now; when it comes to putting up a download, take the 30 seconds to make a version for each. It's obvious that a consensus isn't going to be reached on the matter.

 

[JetAurion]

Even if no other character has a thrust as a FSmash, doesn't mean Lloyd can't have one. He's rather fond of them (Sword Rain branch). Beast, to me, feels as if it should have a Falcon Punch-like feel, though a toned down version with faster speed is acceptable, too.

 

[GP&B]

How about this (in regards to Beast/Rising Falcon):

1. Both moves are going to be made either way.
2. The only argument is which of the two spots each should go in.
3. Changing between these two spots is a simple copy-paste job.

Solution: Stop bickering over preference and move on for now; when it comes to putting up a download, take the 30 seconds to make a version for each. It's obvious that a consensus isn't going to be reached on the matter.

I agree with this 1000 times. Thank you for pointing that out, Fen.
Discuss moar mechanics, less placements kthnx.
Although please continue to discuss placements for moves other than specials.

 

[Zephron]

Even if no other character has a thrust as a FSmash, doesn't mean Lloyd can't have one. He's rather fond of them (Sword Rain branch). Beast, to me, feels as if it should have a Falcon Punch-like feel, though a toned down version with faster speed is acceptable, too.

Sorry Junahu but you totally scrambled up everything X__X
You changed like 200 things and now I have to talk about all of them

What are you guys talking about? TONS of characters have thrust moves.

Mario, Zelda, Luigi, and Ganon come to mind as having very thrust like forward smashes.

Sonic thrust is much better for a charge move and it is slightly powerful.
Beast is expected to be very powerful, and we don't want Lloyd to have very powerful smashes anyway.

Beast is one of Lloyd's signature moves and deserves being a special. If Sonic thrust can't be the side B, it works as either that or the down B.

Jab shouldn't be sword rain. You're cutting off 3 different options that work much better.

You're not making it a repeated jab if after pressing A 3 times it does the final hit. Sword rain would look better as a repeated jab after a normal one.

(I.E Lloyd's normal jab combo)

Sword rain fits as dtilt (which you are ?? for) because most of the hits are centered downwards and Plaid's options of going into beta and alpha sounds really cool. It shouldn't be the jab when Lloyd's normal jab combo ingame looks and works perfectly.

Sword Rain can have it's final hit on the dtilt making it work better and 100% more canon.

If you're making Tiger Blade the fair, but with no jumps, you should grab the aerials Lloyd uses ingame for his crappy air combos.

That's exactly the same thing. Many hate Tiger Blade for Ftilt because it jumps. However Tiger Blade is extremely quick and plummets the enemy to the ground as Lloyd lands quickly as well.

So it's a quick combo move. Very Ftilt-ish. Lloyd's neutral swing combo works perfectly for a jab. Because it was essentially one ingame!


Also I really dont think we should have both tiger blade and tiger rage. They're really similar.

Tiger Blade doesn't even hit upwards at all. Why did you put it there for Utilt?

He jumps... that's it. He hits forwards on every hit and spikes the enemy to the ground. That's nothing like any canon utilt. It should juggle or send the enemy upwards.

Lastly for the dair, the last part of Hunting Beast is iffy. (Lol I sound SO much like Plaid today. Sorry.)

It's good he plummets downwards, but it really doesn't make much sense minus the final hit. It sounds like that's all you're doing, and in that case it isn't Hunting Beast at all.

Beast is too powerful to be Fsmash. It's a signature move, and those should be for the B moves. And if it's in the B section we already argued it down to Side B or Down B and Sonic thrust works for Side Smash so none of that.

 

[Junahu]

The main thing about thrust foreward-Smashes, is that they are all unarmed. When you're unarmed, you can provide a greater force by thrusting, rather than swinging. The opposite is true when brandishing a weapon.
To me, Sonic Thrust has never really been about blasting the opponent away, it was always more of a tool for getting a little space between Lloyd and his enemy, or pushing the enemy away from an Ally. The three elemental derivatives of the move even stop the enemy from being pushed too far away

I don't see anything particularly exciting about extending sword rain into Beta or Alpha when you could just manually use Tiger Blade after sword rain for the same effect, and having a dancing blade esque interaction on a tilt just sounds blunderous compared to how cleanly simple the Specials themselves are.
As you say, there's enough room in the Jab for both Sword Rain and the ordinary combo.

For Tiger Blade, I'm also referencing other official sources (the OVA, and Radiant Mythology, mainly, though he's also pretty jump happy in Soul Calibur Legends), and Namco seems to be of the disposition that Tiger Blade jumps quite high and brings the enemy up with him.

Lloyd is not exactly bursting with regular attacks in midair, so I thought it would please the players to have some weaker versions of Lloyd's jumping Techs in his aerials (Tempest and Tiger Blade), so they could "jump" and then perform the attacks as an alternative to using them from the groud.
With all the techs that involve Lloyd jumping up, and his signature compound EX skill that lets him use Techs in midair, I'm not sure where people got the impression Lloyd shouldn't be ever airborne. Only Regal outstrips him for aerial combat in the original ToS

Lastly for the dair, the last part of Hunting Beast is iffy. (Lol I sound SO much like Plaid today. Sorry.)

It's good he plummets downwards, but it really doesn't make much sense minus the final hit. It sounds like that's all you're doing, and in that case it isn't Hunting Beast at all

The final hit would still happen. What kind of plummeting down-air doesn't have a final hit or push?

I would argue that Hunting Beast minus the signature Beast's head, as would be Plaid's Down-B, is not really "Beast" at all.

Neither Sonic Thrust, nor Beast are "Lloyd only" Techs, so neither one is more canonically important than the other to be a Special move. If anything, Tiger Blade is Lloyd's real Signature attack (since, even outside of ToS, other Tales Characters don't seem to ever use it)


I hope I'm not being too much of a **** by continuing to argue this stuff

 

[JetAurion]

You forgot Flynn and Yuri (even if Yuri's Tiger Blade is some crashed version of Cless').
As for your thrusting analysis, it's generally true (I can't thrust correctly with a sword to save me life), but look up Sonic Thrust on the Aselia Wiki. Sonic Thrust has a major damage boost over other attacks, such as Tiger Blade:
Sonic Thrust: 1.4x dmg
Tiger Blade: .80x dmg (x2, because of it's twin strikes, but the total 1.6x dmg doesn't beat Sonic Thrust in terms of a single blow)
And to top it off, Rising Falcon/Rising Phoenix is classified as a thrust technique, and has the largest damage boost, at 3.2x dmg.
Sorry if I sound like if I'm bashing; I have no excuse.

For an USmash, my brother thought Hunting Beast might sound good. It could indeed knock opponents above him and send them flying.

 

[Junahu]

You forgot Flynn and Yuri (even if Yuri's Tiger Blade is some crashed version of Cless').
As for your thrusting analysis, it's generally true (I can't thrust correctly with a sword to save me life), but look up Sonic Thrust on the Aselia Wiki. Sonic Thrust has a major damage boost over other attacks, such as Tiger Blade:
Sonic Thrust: 1.4x dmg
Tiger Blade: .80x dmg (x2, because of it's twin strikes, but the total 1.6x dmg doesn't beat Sonic Thrust in terms of a single blow)
And to top it off, Rising Falcon/Rising Phoenix is classified as a thrust technique, and has the largest damage boost, at 3.2x dmg.
Sorry if I sound like if I'm bashing; I have no excuse.

No need to apologise. It's a very fair point.
I assume the greater damage of thrust attacks is from the attack piercing through the enemy, and, gameplay wise, the damage itself compensates for thrust attacks being generally harder to hit with.
And thanks for pointing out the fact Yuri/Flynn use Tiger Blade too

 

[thanyou]

@ Plaid being stubborn, Read the first line of Junahu's post to feel my frustration about the last few pages

@ chaoticyeshua: I had that idea too, just give it iasa into itself after a certain number of frames so it does a second slash turning it into double demon fang


And before we get into a fist fight over his general moveset, we need to decide 3 things first:

1) Will we agree with what was prestated in the OP? If not read on, if so, keep arguing about moves that would be relevant to his selected playstyle.

2) What kind of character do we want him to be. (Combo-y, grab happy, Aerial master mind etc...)

3) What kind of moves would he HAVE to have in order to have this selected playstyle. (Forget everything you know/love about Lloyd and just look at what you have to work with)

 

[JetAurion]

1) It's a fair moveset (not great because of my biased views).

2) He should be a combo-ish character. He never grabs (in battle). Air mastery goes to Emil.

3) He should have some attacks that can cancel into another. It gives that original Tales feeling. He needs a lot of Lvl 1 Techs, and few Lvl 3 Techs.

 

[Zephron]

1.) I don't agree with a lot of the suggestions. It's a moveset in need of help.

At the very least, I want Tempest set to Upward Special. Currently it is empty.
I thought we resolved that?

I also don't want demonic chaos for neutral B. Just demon fang... that gets stronger or is unchargeable.

Tempest still seems like a good up tilt option for me. Why not? There's like 5 Tempest variations, Up B can still be tempest too. Psi tempest maybe for the up b?

2.) He should be a ground-based combo happy character. All aerials should be mainly used in short hops or used close to the ground. Good /normal recovery, and medium weight.

Grabs should'nt be at all the basis of his game, and I don't want him to be that great offedge at all.

3.) He would HAVE to have Tempest for coding and playstyle reasons. It's a perfect option where we have very little other ones to work with.

Aerials we have lots of other options. Nair will just have to deal, unless we want 2 moves as Tempest?

He would HAVE to also have demon fang be a unchargeable or single charged projectile. I don't want Lloyd to be camping with this thing. He's not that type of guy.

 

[GP&B]

1. Moveset was, from the beginning, completely open to changes. I am happy with some of the things I'm seeing.

2. Zephron nailed exactly what I was going to say. Grabs may lead into combos and one of his throws might be an average kill throw.

3. Tempest, DF, and Tiger Blade are in for sure.

And I've settled something: DF will be a single projectile with no charging. Simply put, I don't want to give Lloyd any reason to stay away. Heck, DF should be best used mid to close range as a powerful tool for punishing failed techs (or tech chasing in general) and for setting up combos.

I'd also like to state that based on how Mr. Weegee got Tails to use other characters' projectiles, we could simply just make Lloyd create Wolf's blaster shot (or whatever we wanted) for Demon Fang.

 

[Plaid02]

Hello again. I'm kinda offended that everyone is being so mean to me. Did you really have to apologize for sounding like me, Zeph...?

My emotional issues aside, I'd personally prefer Demon Fang to be at least somewhat chargable. I mean, having a projectile that gets a little stronger if you hold the button doesn't exactly make Lloyd a long range character. I'm definitely opposed to making it Double and such, but making it unchargable is perfectly fine by me; I support that.

I think we should avoid having moves in two slots. It's just... weird.

That being said, I think his Utilt should be either a Link-like swipe (purely for selfish reasons; I can't play characters who don't have that very well) or, more seriously, Tempest. The Tempest on his up b would become Psi Tempest and behave exactly how we already described. Unless I'm mistaken, Psi Tempest was Tempest with a higher jump and more horizontal momentum. Since in Brawl we'd control the horizontal momentum anyway and it would be higher than the Utilt, it fits.

Anyway, the Utilt as Tempest. In a manner similar to Olimar's Utilt, Lloyd jumps and spins. It's a pretty low jump, a little lower than the canon Tempest, and it's very quick with low startup and afterlag. The benefits are pretty much the large hitbox and damage racking (this could potentially be changed).

With my other ideas (this one is pretty much Zeph's, actually) of Tiger Blade and Sword Rain as his ftilt and dtilt, respectively, Lloyd's tilts all become very useful and they're all canon techs. This makes all of his smashes and specials (except for Usmash, very little hope there) canon moves and very useful, perfectly fitting the grounded, comboing Lloyd that we mostly seem to agree is the correct course.

Another thing I'd like to mention is that I love the idea of making Fierce Demon Fang a dthrow (Junahu mentioned it tentatively in one of his posts). It would possibly be on the more damaging side of Lloyd's throws (I'd imagine 12-13%), but I'm still not sure what should happen to the foe after that. Should that be the throw with any kill potential, or should it be more like a lot of dthrows where the foe goes upwards into prime comboing range? Or, another option, it could do up to 16% but throw the foe into a useless direction bad for comboing and killing.

I'll reiterate my long-ago stated design for the Usmash. Lloyd thrusts one sword upwards in a manner similar to but much faster than Marth's Usmash, which acts as a stunning hit. The foe is held there for a minimal amount of time while Lloyd's other sword is slashed upwards (in a pretty wide arc that would hit sideways at least a little) in the hit of the smash with the real knockback. Medium/slightly high kill ability, useful, quick. While I like the idea of a scissor cut, I had that in my moveset as his Uair. It also emphasizes (as we want to do as much as possible in his non-canon moves) the fact that Lloyd has two swords.

Finally, please do not put Tiger Blade as an fair. While a few fairs are multi hit, none of them involve an upwards and downwards strike (they're all sideways). I have an idea for fair that I think fits better: the aerial attack from ToS. It's very simple, quick, canon, and not very strong. If I remember correctly, Lloyd slashes downward in front of him. This is perfect for his fair since we want his aerials to not be flashy, first off, to not be very strong, second, and third, to not to be very long (as Tiger Blade would be).

I lied about that last paragraph being the last one. Sorry. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but my main point for the preference of Sonic Thrust as an fsmash over Beast was the hitbox. The only people with a hitbox remotely like Beast play nothing like we want Lloyd to. The hitboxes more like Sonic Thrust, however, make up more than half of the total characters, and all are more similar to Lloyd's idealized playstyle than the characters with the huge and stronger hitboxes.

(actually) Final note. Does anyone know what happened to Dark Sonic?

 

[GP&B]

As the lead here, I have to start making decisions or **** won't get done.
I have a preference for giving each tech only one move as I also find it weird.
It seems as if Tempest has solidified its position as USpecial. If I don't see any more objections, I'll do so.
UTilts generally have wide coverage or can combo/setup quite well (usually not both).
It's quite hard to define properties of USmashes. This could go anywhere, but we just need something characteristic of Lloyd.

And thanks for pointing out the fact Yuri/Flynn use Tiger Blade too

And Cless (I don't care if it's translated as Tiger Teeth; it does exactly the same thing).

 

[Junahu]

I can sense that argueing anymore about Beast becoming a Smash would just be fruitless and annoying to everyone else, so I secede the point. Further on that, argueing whether Beast and Rising Falcon should be switched is a similar waste of time.
I'm still not comfortable with how Hunting Beast basically dictated this whole arguement, but I'm not above admitting that my ideas were no better.

So, all that said, there are still other things I disagree with. Mostly with the belief that Lloyd's aerial game should be terrible. Lloyd was one of the better characters for counteracting enemies in midair. And as I said, only he and Regal could use Techs in midair in the original ToS. Lloyd has a good balance of ground and mid air abilties, and nearly half of his Techs involve jumping.
So, yes, he should focus on ground combos, but that doesn't mean his aerials should be swept under the rug.

Argueing that Tiger Blade is too complicated for F-air is kind of hypocritical in the face of using Sword-rain on D-tilt. I need to point out that D-tilts involve crouching, and a single hit, and they don't branch out into other moves. (What is the purpose behind using Alpha anyway? That leaves Lloyd in midair, where everyone is determined to make him suck)

Is U-tilt really better than U-Smash for a Tempest tech? Between the two, U-Smash is the more forceful and is the more likely to imply the motion of jumping. It just feels strange that your suggested U-Smash doesn't involve jumping, but your suggested U-Tilt does.

And Cless (I don't care if it's translated as Tiger Teeth; it does exactly the same thing).

So, Lloyd has no Signature moves, at all. wow...

 

[Zephron]

So, yes, he should focus on ground combos, but that doesn't mean his aerials should be swept under the rug.

No, no no! I didn't mean that at all. What I meant is that Lloyd's aerials shouldn't be that good for offedge or gimping purposes.

Lloyd is NOT going to be any Marth of any sense of the word.

An example (lol my main, and I've said this before) would be Lucas.
Good ground game, good aerials made for shorthops and ground use.

Lucas' aerials are fantastic, but are made to be used to bring the opponent either to the edge, for comboing, or to bring the enemy to the ground. Lucas' aerials (minus his dair) and awkward to use offedge and don't make him a keen gimping character.

Lloyd should be similar in that area. Do you see what I mean now?

So, Lloyd has no Signature moves, at all. wow...

That's... depressing... and really surprising. ***See Avy***
.. Developer innovation fail?

 

[JetAurion]

His signature is his twin swords. And Falcon's Crest, for all it's worth in terms of originality.
So what moves actually have been decided?

 

[Zephron]

His signature is his twin swords. And Falcon's Crest, for all it's worth in terms of originality.
So what moves actually have been decided?

Check the OP. GameDominator should have been putting asterisks on the one's we're discussing or done with.

 

[Plaid02]

His aerials aren't supposed to suck, they're just not supposed to be good enough (or complicated enough) to make him an aerially based character. My argument was less hypocritical than you said (still possible hypocritical :awesomeface:/whatever you do to make the awesome face) because my point was that, by our reasoning, Lloyd's aerials are supposed to be pretty quick, not very strong, and not very flashy (those are characteristics that still allow them to be useful), while all of his grounded attacks are. I'm going to point out that virtually all fighting in ToS was done on the ground... Also, Lloyd is pretty much crouching when he does Sword Rain...

In regards to Tempest as the Utilt/Usmash, we really can't make Tempest into anything with good knockback, which is what his Usmash has to have... Think of how weird that would be. In the Utilt, Tempest would have the characteristic of having a broad range and racking damage, but it would not be very good for setting up combos (not enough hitstun, not right angle, etc.). While I totally understand what you mean about the jumping and the forcefulness upwards, Tempest would not be very forceful.

@Gamedominator: I think my idea for the Usmash fits as characteristic of Lloyd's grounded moves. It's quick, pretty strong, and emphasizes the use of both his swords. How does everyone else feel about that one?

I'm also going to try and see about what we're agreed upon.

Neutral B: Demon Fang. Does not charge.
Up B: (possibly Psi) Tempest. Would act the same whether Psi or not.
Down/Side B: Beast and Rising Falcon, not necessarily in those slots respectively, but it seems to me like that's where we're leaning.

For tilts, the closest is Sword Rain on Dtilt. Maybe my viewpoint is biased, but I think there's a leaning towards Tiger Blade as Ftilt and no agreement yet about the Utilt.

Smashes:
Fsmash: Sonic Thrust
Dsmash: Demonic Circle
Usmash: little progress as of yet

Aerials:

lol, yeah right.
... Except maybe stealing Ike's bair and adding another sword (making it 2-hit). That's what's in the OP, right?

Throws:
Dthrow: Fierce Demon Fang... maybe. Is there any opposition here?

FINAL SMASH: FALCON'S CREST! YES!

Also, am I missing anything?

 

[Dark Sonic]

(actually) Final note. Does anyone know what happened to Dark Sonic?

I never left the thread, but since you don't seem to want to budge on the beast as f-smash point (which is nowhere near as much of a problem as you make it out to be. Look at Marth <_<) there really hasn't been much to argue about.

However, after that last wall of text I have to argue a few things.


Tempest as an uptilt would be pretty powerful. You cite Olimar's uptilt for precedence, but tempest has a MUCH larger hitbox. It's very disjointed, multihit, comes out fast, and really should not be used as a tilt (unless we want one of Lloyd's TILTS to have a large amount of endlag....completely uncanon).

This would actually make much more sense as upsmash like Junahu pointed out. If you want precedence, look at Sonic who has....basically the same move (minus swords). Lloyd's could easily be made different from Sonic's just by inverting the lag times (make it come out quick and have moderate endlag as opposed to vice versa).

And before you say this is OP....Sonic's upsmash is invincible, lasts forever, is multihit, combos into aerials forever, kills at pretty low percents (not Fox upsmash low, but it's pretty strong), and is virtually lagless. Lloyd's tempest upsmash will not be OP <_<


Using your previous argument that was used to shut down Beast as F-smash....tempest is far too elaborate for a simple tilt.

I think your upsmash should be switched with uptilt.

And I still argue that swordrain is not suited for d-tilt. It would work perfectly fine as a rapid jab AND still have the alpha and beta cancels, I don't see why anyone would be against this. It frees up an extra attack slot and has NO consequences. It's pretty much denying Lloyd an extra move possibility simply because you don't want to tap A during sword rain <_<.



@Everyone in this thread. Stop trying to give Lloyd bad throws. Also, stop trying to give Lloyd a kill throw (wtf?). You guys want a combo oriented character right? One that does aerials to drag the opponent down so that you can combo with tilts, and eventually get a kill by comboing into a smash (or beast) right? Well for that, Lloyd needs A SOLID COUNTER TO SHIELDING!

Let's face it, Lloyd will not be getting shieldstabs, nor will he be so safe on block that he'll never have to worry about OoS options. He doesn't have the necessary range, and most of his moves are looking to be fairly long lasting. He's going to be VERY COMMITTED. For this kind of character to work, he needs to have some way to get an opponent to stop just sitting in their shield whenever he gets close to them. The simplest solution for this is to give Lloyd a good grab game, with throws that combo into his aerials or tilts for a very long time. None of you want Lloyd's throws to combo into kill moves, but that IS NOT NECESSARY TO HAVE A GOOD GRAB GAME. Take one look at Marth and you'll see a character that has a devestating grab game, while not having a kill throw or even a kill setup from a throw.

That's the kind of grab game Lloyd should have. He can't space aerials all day to force a reaction like Ike, and he can't pressure your shield until he shield stabs and start a combo like Falco, and he can't camp projectiles until you approach like Olimar. He's an offensive character, and offensive characters have good grabs.


"Lloyd is NOT going to be any Marth of any sense of the word."

Well let's see.

1. They both have swords
2. They're thin human characters
3. They're both fast (both in attack speed and in movement

They're already pretty similar (only character I can find that's move similar to Marth is Lucario). Don't be afraid to take ideas from other characters.

The difference will lie in the fact that Lloyd is move grounded right? He'll fall faster (not too fast), he'll have good tilts for comboing (Marth only has uptilt), and he'll have a good jab (essential for a ground based character). But here's the thing. You describe him having aerials that "bring the enemy to the ground." Could this also not be used to "drag the opponent down off stage"?

There are a few ways to discourage this use. You could make his aerials very laggy (not landing lag, aerial lag. Think Ike's nair), you can make him fall faster (why Falcon isn't the best gimper <_<), ect. Basically, I'm asking how exactly you want to go about making his aerial game compliment his ground game, but at the same time want him to be terrible off stage?

Aerials:

lol, yeah right.
... Except maybe stealing Ike's bair and adding another sword (making it 2-hit). That's what's in the OP, right?

Maybe we could combine Ike's bair with Link's fair (have him to Ike's bair for first hit, then spin around for another hit like Link's fair, then continue turning like Ike's bair). It'd look pretty sweet.







/wall of text.


Sorry if I come off as rude. It's a bad habit to over emphasize things in posts. Caps aren't yelling, they're just talking a little louder

 

[Zephron]

Tempest as an uptilt would be pretty powerful. You cite Olimar's uptilt for precedence, but tempest has a MUCH larger hitbox. It's very disjointed, multihit, comes out fast, and really should not be used as a tilt (unless we want one of Lloyd's TILTS to have a large amount of endlag....completely uncanon).

What? We can edit the lag first off, and ingame Lloyd hardly has any lag on that move. You're meant to be caught on the rim of Lloyd's swords, not inside the spiral like Sonic's. The hitboxes we can also edit, and the fact it's multihit makes it sound better as a Utilt because so are all the other tilts Lloyd has. The last hit can be just as weak as the first. Or at least strong enough so Lloyd doesn't get much punishment if the enemy is caught.

It comes out as fast as we want it to be, and frankly that also helps for it to be a utilt.

This would actually make much more sense as upsmash like Junahu pointed out. If you want precedence, look at Sonic who has....basically the same move (minus swords). Lloyd's could easily be made different from Sonic's just by inverting the lag times (make it come out quick and have moderate endlag as opposed to vice versa).

No way. It doesn't look powerful at all, first off. Sonic's makes you come towards the center, which doesn't really make sense when Lloyd has swords.

Lloyd's would keep you on the rim, getting hit by many weak hits repeatedly.

Using your previous argument that was used to shut down Beast as F-smash....tempest is far too elaborate for a simple tilt.

Lloyd, I think should have a complicated and good tilt game. Tilts are excellent for fast comboing. He should have canon moves for all of them. It also won't be too powerful at all, as you for some reason think.[/quote]

I think your upsmash should be switched with uptilt.

In case you haven't realized, I don't.

And I still argue that swordrain is not suited for d-tilt. It would work perfectly fine as a rapid jab AND still have the alpha and beta cancels, I don't see why anyone would be against this. It frees up an extra attack slot and has NO consequences. It's pretty much denying Lloyd an extra move possibility simply because you don't want to tap A during sword rain <_<.

You can tap a for the dtilt as well if you want to. Tons of characters do this.

This encourages Lloyd to have a good tilt game. Most any other option would be non-canon and make Lloyd's tilt game worse.

Setting it as Dtilt will make NO consequences as well if that's what we want.
We're not denying any moves. We're not cutting anything out, just moving it to a better spot.

Setting this to a jab will make people spam this. I know.

I made Young Link's rapid jab from Melee, and although it had low hitstun I was spamming this all the time. It was cheap and bad.

Lloyd shouldn't be doing that. Dtilt allows this to be more reasonable and fit better.

@Everyone in this thread. Stop trying to give Lloyd bad throws.

You know what, you're right. I agree. Yup. Didn't see that coming eh?

He's going to be VERY COMMITTED.

I really liked this line so I'll quote it in agreement.

"Lloyd is NOT going to be any Marth of any sense of the word."

Well let's see.

1. They both have swords
2. They're thin human characters
3. They're both fast (both in attack speed and in movement

That's making link and marth sound similar if you apply that.
Link can be really fast if you do it right.

Lloyd is going to be much heavier than Marth I should think.
I'm not afraid to rip off moves. Lloyd just gives us so many awesome options I'd rather use those.

But here's the thing. You describe him having aerials that "bring the enemy to the ground." Could this also not be used to "drag the opponent down off stage"?

Lloyd's aerials wouldn't spike if that's what you mean. If they do, it'll be a weak one. Weak spikes should be fine (I've spiked Plaid a billion times with weak spikes and he's easily made it back)

Lloyd would be rather heavy though. His moves shouldn't have that much lag though, otherwise it doesn't make it combo-able.
Besides perhaps having a weak spike, you can also make his aerials awkward to use offedge, or have Lloyd have bad aerial mobility.

Lucas has wonderful aerials but they are awkward to use, minus his dair which I have to use like 1000 times to kill someone once spike wise.

Sorry if I come off as rude. It's a bad habit to over emphasize things in posts. Caps aren't yelling, they're just talking a little louder

I think I just wtfpwnt your wall of text. (size wise ) I should be the one apologizing!

 

[GP&B]

When I'm talking about an average kill throw, I'm talking a bit weaker than B+ Mario's BThrow. DS's wall does bring a ton of insight into the play style though and makes some good suggestions as far as attributes and move types go.

I think we should continue to define the aerials some more.
-Bair: The whole Ike Bair/Link Fair hybrid sounds very nice.
-Fair: Jumping back and forth on this, but Lloyd's air attack has been suggested.
-Uair: Scissor Slice?
-Nair: -
-Dair: -

 

[Junahu]

I'm going to point out that virtually all fighting in ToS was done on the ground...

This is because ToS is not Brawl. You shouldn't just make a literal interpretation of what he can do in ToS and argue that he should behave identical to this in Brawl. For one, the gravity in ToS is far stricter than in Brawl, noone in ToS can do much of anything in the air. Compared to everyone else in that game, Lloyd is actually pretty incredible in the air. And, again, a lot of his Techs involve being in the air.

Also, Lloyd is pretty much crouching when he does Sword Rain...

He lowers himself with a bracing stance, but no more than he does when using Sonic Thrust. It's certainly nowhere near low enough to count as a crouch


Also, I agree with pretty much the entirety of Dark Sonic's post. Particularly the part about the throws.
Noone in ToS ever grabs in battle, so we have no grounds to assume Lloyd should have bad throws. In fact, considering his character type, one would assume Lloyd has good throws, or at least ones that complement the rest of his fighting style

 

[Dark Sonic]

What? We can edit the lag first off, and ingame Lloyd hardly has any lag on that move. You're meant to be caught on the rim of Lloyd's swords, not inside the spiral like Sonic's. The hitboxes we can also edit, and the fact it's multihit makes it sound better as a Utilt because so are all the other tilts Lloyd has. The last hit can be just as weak as the first. Or at least strong enough so Lloyd doesn't get much punishment if the enemy is caught.

So you want Lloyd to have a massively disjointed, long lasting, low startup, low endlag tilt?

Yeah, I'd rather not have Lloyd be a broken mess thank you.

It comes out as fast as we want it to be, and frankly that also helps for it to be a utilt.

But you want it to come out fast correct? That would make it more "canon" right? Then it sure as hell can't have low end lag too! (which is also not canon. Catch 22).

No way. It doesn't look powerful at all, first off. Sonic's makes you come towards the center, which doesn't really make sense when Lloyd has swords.

Oh it doesn't? Toon Link's up B, MK's Pit's nair uair, and upsmash, Link's fair and upsmash, TORNADO!, and Marth's nair disagree.

What part of a spinning move sucking opponents in doesn't make sense? It doesn't matter that he has swords (notice that the characters listed above all have swords <_<). You do want all of the hits to chain together right? Then without lag adjustments it will be broken as ****.

And with suitable lag on either side of the move it really doesn't feel like a tilt

Lloyd's would keep you on the rim, getting hit by many weak hits repeatedly.

Sonic upsmash-keep getting hit by many weak hits repeatedly, finish with one strong hit
Pit nair-keep getting hit by many weak hits repeatedly, finish with one medium hit
Young Link up B-keep getting hit by many weak hits repeatedly, finish with one strong hit


strangely enough all of these moves have drawbacks. Sonic's upsmash has horrendous startup lag, Young Link's up B has horrendous ending lag, and Pit's nair has terrible range. What's the weakness on Lloyd's lagless tempest again?

Lloyd, I think should have a complicated and good tilt game. Tilts are excellent for fast comboing. He should have canon moves for all of them. It also won't be too powerful at all, as you for some reason think.

Ironically complicated tilts are the least likely to combo correctly. Multihit attacks leave a lot of room for DI to affect combos. Sword rain d-tilt will just be DI'd out of and shielded like any rapid jab, tiger blade f-tilt will be DI'd away and down on the first hit so that the second hit either misses or hits them into the ground (which they can tech), and tempest uptilt will be a broken single move that is used to wall out opponents.


Being "canon" is not what will make Lloyd good. Being FLEXIBLE is what makes a character good. Right now he's being loaded with very long lasting techs that really don't flow well together for comboing (maybe if you wanted a tech chase character. He's looking like he'll be really good at that so far)

Setting it as Dtilt will make NO consequences as well if that's what we want.

Setting it as jab opens up another slot for an additional move. An additional move means more options. More options means more flexibility. More flexibility means a better character >_<

We're not denying any moves. We're not cutting anything out, just moving it to a better spot.

Describe how it's a better spot?

Setting this to a jab will make people spam this. I know.

And setting the exact same move as d-tilt won't?

I made Young Link's rapid jab from Melee, and although it had low hitstun I was spamming this all the time. It was cheap and bad.

Young Link's rapid jab is not good <_<

Lloyd shouldn't be doing that. Dtilt allows this to be more reasonable and fit better.

No one has described HOW it's better on d-tilt! All anyone has said is that he'd be able to go into swordrain alpha and beta (which are both still possible to put in even if sword rain were on jab instead). Why does this have to be his d-tilt to accomplish this? Is it because you can't think of another "canon" move to go there? (which is completely unnecessary btw)

That's making link and marth sound similar if you apply that.
Link can be really fast if you do it right.

Link is nowhere near as fast as Marth <_<. By comparison Link is slow. He dashes slow, he walks slow, he has slow air speed, he has slow attack speed....Link is not fast. Link is also fat

Lloyd on the other hand

dashes fast, attacks fast, falls fast, jumps fast, ect.

Name 2 characters in brawl more similar to Marth (brawl+ Marth, not vbrawl Marth) than Lloyd (in playstyle, not appearance)

Lloyd is going to be much heavier than Marth I should think.
I'm not afraid to rip off moves. Lloyd just gives us so many awesome options I'd rather use those.

And yet you're denying some of those options by putting sword rain on d-tilt, when you could just slap it on as an EXTRA jab and make ANOTHER move d-tilt <_<.

Why would Lloyd be heavier than Marth?

Weight=/=fall speed. Fox was one of the lightest characters in melee (only beat by Kirby, Jiggs, G&W, and Pichu). He falls like a rock <_<

Lloyd's aerials wouldn't spike if that's what you mean. If they do, it'll be a weak one. Weak spikes should be fine (I've spiked Plaid a billion times with weak spikes and he's easily made it back)

Marth's fair and bair don't spike <_<. It's extremely common for an aerial that's good for setting up ground base combos to also be good for gimping.

Any time you have an aerial that drags the opponent down with you (and drags is really an overstatement. It's pretty much anything that hits horizontal or lower), it can be used for gimping.

Lloyd would be rather heavy though.

Weight=/= fallspeed. Please don't forget this

His moves shouldn't have that much lag though, otherwise it doesn't make it combo-able.

Yes it would. I even gave a clear cut example.

Aerial lag=/=landing lag. There's a lot that goes into how a character functions, and this is the kind of stuff that should be discussed.

Besides perhaps having a weak spike, you can also make his aerials awkward to use offedge, or have Lloyd have bad aerial mobility.

Describe awkward to use?

Lucas has wonderful aerials but they are awkward to use, minus his dair which I have to use like 1000 times to kill someone once spike wise.

But Lloyd is not Lucas. Lucas's aerials don't work off stage because of the nature of his double jump, not because they're bad aerials for gimping in general. Lloyd will not be having that odd double jump, so we have to have some other way to deter their offstage usage.

I think I just wtfpwnt your wall of text. (size wise ) I should be the one apologizing!

I disagree entirely <_<

 

[thanyou]

Sorry guys, but I've been and will be on hiatus all this week because of star testing, I'll finish up everything this weekend if I can find the time.

 

[Plaid02]

So you want Lloyd to have a massively disjointed, long lasting, low startup, low endlag tilt?

Yeah, I'd rather not have Lloyd be a broken mess thank you.

You have irritated me substantially. You are either deliberately misinterpreting what he meant to say, or I have a lot of explaining to do. Due to my optimistic nature (lol yeah right), I'll assume the latter.

First off, you're wrong in your assumptions. We're making the tilts very fast; Tempest is NOT THAT LONG. The massive disjointedness is unavoidable if it's going to be Tempest. You're also acting under the assumption that Tempest, like (surprise, surprise) Sonic's Usmash, will have a powerful inwards sucking force. Why? That is not necessary. I mean, there should be a little so as to avoid easy DIing away, but really, it's going to be much, much shorter than you are assuming. They won't have time. That's the real problem with your criticisms of the tilts; you're assuming they're much longer than they actually will be. Using DI to escape Tiger Blade, for example, has a snowball's chance in hell (not Dante's, the more common conception with all the fire).


I'd also like to note that there is no strong hit; you fabricated one in your desire to imitate Sonic's Usmash. In reality, making it like that would not be like the parts of Lloyd we've already decided.

Anyway, back to the whole thing with the dtilt vs. rapid jab. I think Zeph may have butchered the argument (sorry). My point is that putting sword rain as a rapid jab would make it exactly how you described: easily escapable and essentially useless. It would make it less accessible, first off, and it would be really, really weird to do anyway. Lloyd never held Sword Rain for hours... As a dtilt, Sword Rain would be very easily accessible when you want to use it (i.e., when the foe is close, unlike when they've had two hits of a jab to DI away).

I think I have more to say, but I need to leave now. kbai.

 

[Junahu]

My point is that putting sword rain as a rapid jab would make it exactly how you described: easily escapable and essentially useless. It would make it less accessible, first off, and it would be really, really weird to do anyway. Lloyd never held Sword Rain for hours... As a dtilt, Sword Rain would be very easily accessible when you want to use it (i.e., when the foe is close, unlike when they've had two hits of a jab to DI away)

You know what would solve this? My original suggestion of having Sword Rain become the Jab itself rather than the repeating jab. Doing so would let Sword Rain be a finite move, and it would be easy to whip out against foes too.

 

[Zephron]

But then we'd put something random or non-canon as the dtilt.

All of Lloyd's tilts and specials should be moves from the game... here's a perfect option sitting right here.

Lloyd already has a great jab. Let that be the jab. Weird rite.
(I'll agree though that if we never resolve the dtilt thing, this would be the second best option. )

And push sword rain to the dtilt. Whala. More Lloyd, less made up stuff.


Maybe we'd stop arguing this if you guys didn't suggest something random as a replacement.

 

[Dark Sonic]

First off, you're wrong in your assumptions. We're making the tilts very fast; Tempest is NOT THAT LONG. The massive disjointedness is unavoidable if it's going to be Tempest. You're also acting under the assumption that Tempest, like (surprise, surprise) Sonic's Usmash, will have a powerful inwards sucking force. Why? That is not necessary. I mean, there should be a little so as to avoid easy DIing away, but really, it's going to be much, much shorter than you are assuming. They won't have time. That's the real problem with your criticisms of the tilts; you're assuming they're much longer than they actually will be. Using DI to escape Tiger Blade, for example, has a snowball's chance in hell (not Dante's, the more common conception with all the fire).


I'd also like to note that there is no strong hit; you fabricated one in your desire to imitate Sonic's Usmash. In reality, making it like that would not be like the parts of Lloyd we've already decided.

Ironically you also are making gross assumptions.

1. My definition of long may not be your definition of long. My definition of long is...a move that's likely to hit through spotdodges. Things like Lucario's f-smash are medium in "length" (the hitbox stays out for a full 9 frames). Pit's bair is long (omg 16 frame hitbox). Pit's nair is long (hitbox every 3 frames for 21 frames) Olimar's uptilt is extremely "long" for a tilt (having a hitbox every 6 frames for a total of 42 frames!). As you can see, it really doesn't take all that much to be "long" when single hit moves in comparison stay out for 3-5 frames on average. My only assumption of tempest uptilt was that it would have at least 4-5 hits, which is still fairly long.


2. I said that it would hit them repeatedly, which is exactly what tempest does. That does not require a LARGE sucking force like you've seemed to attach to my argument, it only requires a small inward knockback or small upward knockback (to the point of not actually sending them anywhere because of their gravity and weight outweighing the knockback). I said that they would not be able to easily DI out of it, which you just confirmed to be true, only I described HOW that can be done.

That means that the move will fully connect whenever it lands (as it should), the move will come out fast, the move will have low endlag, the move will hit multiple times, and the move will have a fairly long period of active hitboxes (as a result of the multihit nature. see above), AND it will have quite a bit of disjointed range. Now I ask again, WHAT IS KEEPING ME FROM SPAMMING THIS?


3.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gPj_dKdmFY#t=45s
For a tilt, tiger blade is pretty long don't you think? And actually, there's quite a bit of separation between the two hits. If even Pit's f-smash has trouble connecting, what exactly makes you think Tiger Blade will be any different?


4. I did not once in my post say that it would have a strong hit. You fabricated one in your desire to discredit my argument <_<. Tempest upsmash would be multihit for a couple of hits, come out fast, have a lot of range, have medium end lag, and medium knockback on the final hit so that you don't get punished for landing it.

Tempest UPTILT on the other hand so far is nothing short of broken. It is not okay for an attack to have low startup, low endlag, AND a massive hitbox. The knockback and damage do not even matter at this point (maybe if it only did 3% or something). Now, can anyone here deny that this is exactly how tempest uptilt would work?

 

[Zephron]

Ironically you also are making gross assumptions.

1. My definition of long may not be your definition of long. My definition of long is...a move that's likely to hit through spotdodges. Things like Lucario's f-smash are medium in "length" (the hitbox stays out for a full 9 frames). Pit's bair is long (omg 16 frame hitbox). Pit's nair is long (hitbox every 3 frames for 21 frames) Olimar's uptilt is extremely "long" for a tilt (having a hitbox every 6 frames for a total of 42 frames!). As you can see, it really doesn't take all that much to be "long" when single hit moves in comparison stay out for 3-5 frames on average. My only assumption of tempest uptilt was that it would have at least 4-5 hits, which is still fairly long.

First of all, we all need to calm down here. I don't want a screaming fest going on.

Everyone tone it down a bit. Okay?
Yeah, your terms of long are very different from ours.

I would think we can make it a tad quicker than Normal Tempest for the utilt. It won't go as high either. But it will, yes DS, be quick and have a decent amount of range.

I'll explain more in depth below.

2. I said that it would hit them repeatedly, which is exactly what tempest does. That does not require a LARGE sucking force like you've seemed to attach to my argument, it only requires a small inward knockback or small upward knockback (to the point of not actually sending them anywhere because of their gravity and weight outweighing the knockback). I said that they would not be able to easily DI out of it, which you just confirmed to be true, only I described HOW that can be done.

That means that the move will fully connect whenever it lands (as it should), the move will come out fast, the move will have low endlag, the move will hit multiple times, and the move will have a fairly long period of active hitboxes (as a result of the multihit nature. see above), AND it will have quite a bit of disjointed range. Now I ask again, WHAT IS KEEPING ME FROM SPAMMING THIS?

Capslock doesnt = cruise control for cool. It's just aggravating. Bold something if you want emphasis.


Now, This move would have upwards knockback. Very weak though, and about 5 hits.
It should only "suck" you in if you're directly on top of Lloyd, or you are above him.

If you're on the side, Lloyd will have enough lag for punishment. This move can't be spammed because the final hit will prevent you from using it more than 3 times, in a row, (2 only if you're low damage) and the move itself doesn't do much % in the first place.

It is sort of like Olimar's up tilt, just concept wise. Lloyd just has more range with this move, and it will be a ton faster, but have the same afterlag.

The hitboxes we can edit to not last as long as you're whining about. This move is going to be quicker than normal tempest because he's just spinning a small distance upwards then back down.

This doesn't work for an up smash because Tempest was never a strong hitter, and almost all up smashes are hard hitters. If they aren't, it's awkward and generally those characters are low tier.

Link -- > Low tier
Samus --> Low Tier
Mario --> Low Tier

Yes there are character with good smashes in the low tier (Lucas), but there isn't a vice versa for the top tiers. All of them have good up smashes.

How is it awkward?
Besides the fact I've stated before that almost all up smashes are hard hitters, Lloyd already has a myriad of combo moves and his smashes shouldn't be focusing on that.

3.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gPj_dKdmFY#t=45s
For a tilt, tiger blade is pretty long don't you think? And actually, there's quite a bit of separation between the two hits. If even Pit's f-smash has trouble connecting, what exactly makes you think Tiger Blade will be any different?

I personally thought that was pretty quick. If you think it's too slow, we can speed it up or edit when the hitboxes appear. Frankly it wont need that much editing at all to work correctly. Link's fair almost always connect both hits if you get hit by the first, and there's also considerable time between the two.

With the Pit example, there's always going to be people who get out of moves. We can't stop that. Tons of characters have multi-hit moves. They aren't useless just because you can DI out of them sometimes. We can make it easy or hard to DI out.

4. I did not once in my post say that it would have a strong hit. You fabricated one in your desire to discredit my argument <_<. Tempest upsmash would be multihit for a couple of hits, come out fast, have a lot of range, have medium end lag, and medium knockback on the final hit so that you don't get punished for landing it.

Tempest UPTILT on the other hand so far is nothing short of broken. It is not okay for an attack to have low startup, low endlag, AND a massive hitbox. The knockback and damage do not even matter at this point (maybe if it only did 3% or something). Now, can anyone here deny that this is exactly how tempest uptilt would work?

I'm pretty darn sure it sounded like it! I'll edit this later and find exactly what made me think that.

We're not fabricating anything to discredit you. Please calm down.

Yes. The up tilt is a good move. Sorry if you want your Lloyd to be different. We all have different opinions.

The knockback and damage do matter, and it also matters where you can get pulled in. Lloyd will be much more vulnerable on the sides, where he can get punished if he pulls this off wrong.

If you are in either of the places suggested before, there should be no punishment.

These specific tilts and other moves have great options, but have to be used in certain situations.

That encourages Lloyd to be "comitted", which is the best word to describe him so far I've heard.

 

[Junahu]

And push sword rain to the dtilt. Whala. More Lloyd, less made up stuff.


Maybe we'd stop arguing this if you guys didn't suggest something random as a replacement.

But that's exactly what should be on his tilts, swings of his swords that aren't flashy, don't make Lloyd jump, and aren't Techs. Seriously, I can't overemphasise that last part. I don't care if his tilts are an important part of his playstyle, don't make stupid decisions purely off the back of that fact.
Cramming Techs into awkward places does not make the moveset any more canon. In fact, if anything, it makes it even less canonically acceptable

Take literally any character in Brawl (except G&W, who was designed specifically to be a random hodgepodge of his games). Most of their moves have nothing to do with their games, but the player can still believe that this is how they fight, because so much thought was put into the look and feel of each attack. It isn't a case of slapping trademark moves everywhere they fit, we're supposed to be building a moveset that captures the spirit and personality of Lloyd himself (the character, not the in-battle playable banana)
Tilts are supposed to be simple and throwaway. If they weren't, they would take far too much of the emphasis off of the Smash attacks and Specials.

This doesn't work for an up smash because Tempest was never a strong hitter, and almost all up smashes are hard hitters. If they aren't, it's awkward and generally those characters are low tier

I thought Lloyd wasn't going to be a hard hitter?


Edit: Since we all have a different idea as to what Lloyd is supposed to be, it would make sense for us to try and meet eachother in the middle with all this. Otherwise we'll end up with a Lloyd that only pleases one or two people

 

[Zephron]

Tilts are supposed to be simple and throwaway. If they weren't, they would take far too much of the emphasis off of the Smash attacks and Specials.

I'm sorry, what? Tilts can be incredibly important. They are NOT throwaway. They're quick and extremely useful. (Snaaaaaaaaaaaaakeeeeee) . If Lucas' tilts were "throwaway", I wouldn't main him. Same for Plaid and Toon Link.

However, you're right with most tilts being very simple.
Tilts are very important moves though, so since a lot of the other places you've suggested for Tiger Blade and Sword Rain to go to are aren't good at all (In our opinion of course), giving Lloyd very good tilts would simply be a cool way of making Lloyd more unique, and put them (once again in our opinion) in a proper spot.

I thought Lloyd wasn't going to be a hard hitter?

Not really. But mostly everyone has a number of hard hitting moves. Smashes are just the best area for those to go inside, because they can be charged and make the most sense.

Edit: Since we all have a different idea as to what Lloyd is supposed to be, it would make sense for us to try and meet eachother in the middle with all this. Otherwise we'll end up with a Lloyd that only pleases one or two people

You guys (I assume?) don't want Lloyd to have emphasis on tilts and you want a lot of these moves simply switched around.

It seems most of us at least agree on how the moves should work.

Perhaps we can try this to do just that:

I suggest we make a list of all the moves we want Lloyd to have, and we should go (MUCH SLOWER THIS TIME) down the list of moves again and
finally decide over where these moves are going.

Don't jump ahead. If we're still arguing over Tempest, don't move on to Tiger Blade and get everything confused.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Now, This move would have upwards knockback. Very weak though, and about 5 hits.
It should only "suck" you in if you're directly on top of Lloyd, or you are above him.

So are you saying that if an opponent runs into it from the sides they would not get hit by subsequent hits?

the final hit will prevent you from using it more than 3 times, in a row, (2 only if you're low damage)

Wait, wait, how are you going to do this? If it can be done 3 times then one prevents it from being done indefinitely? I'm not talking about the move comboing into itself, I'm talking about the move being an over powered air trap that prevents characters from ever....landing.

If the move has enough knockback on the last hit to prevent you from being punished (for landing it), then the opponent will still be in the air. If the opponent is still in the air, then they are in position to be hit by....another uptilt. And with it's disjointedness, few characters will have any move that outright beats it. With it's duration, most momentum tricks won't be enough to stall and get away from the hitboxes.

That's my problem with it. It can't be both low startup AND low endlag with that kind of hitbox. Pick one or the other.

It is sort of like Olimar's up tilt, just concept wise. Lloyd just has more range with this move, and it will be a ton faster, but have the same afterlag.

How come people can't see the problem with this?

The hitboxes we can edit to not last as long as you're whining about. This move is going to be quicker than normal tempest because he's just spinning a small distance upwards then back down.

If the duration of the hitboxes is more than 1/2 of the total duration...it will definitely be a problem.

It'd be a lot easier if we just offered frame data for our desired versions of the attacks.

Here's what I want if everyone insists on making tempest uptilt.

1. Startup: 6 frames
2. Hitboxes on frames 6,9,12, 15, and 18 (maybe make it 6 hits idk) hits 1 and 3 would do 2%, hits 2 and 4 would do 1%, and hit 5 would do 3% for a total of 9%
3. Endlag: 20-25 frames.


Something along those lines would make tempest have reasonably quick startup, medium lasting, medium endlag tilt with very good range. It would do low damage, and only have enough knockback to make it safe on hit (since it would be so good at trapping airborne characters anyway)

Link -- > Low tier
Samus --> Low Tier
Mario --> Low Tier

Metaknight->top tier
Snake->high tier
Diddy Kong->high tier
Wario->high tier
Pit->mid tier
Zero Suit Samus->mid tier

But I'd prefer to go ahead and use melee examples, cause I'm more comfortable with that.

Falco->high tier
Jigglypuff->high tier
Samus->mid tier
Luigi->mid tier

And that's only going by power. If you want to add in upsmashes that just in general aren't good we'll add

Marth->top tier
Peach (it's not a bad move, but it's also not good)->high tier
Captain Falcon (same as Peach)->high tier
Donkey Kong->mid tier



I believe this is a reasonable enough number of examples to conclude that weak upsmash=/=low tier <_<

Yes there are character with good smashes in the low tier (Lucas), but there isn't a vice versa for the top tiers. All of them have good up smashes.

Lucas's upsmash is TERRIBLE 0_o

Oh, and Metaknight, the best character in the game, coincidentally has one of the worst upsmashes in the game.

How is it awkward?
Besides the fact I've stated before that almost all up smashes are hard hitters, Lloyd already has a myriad of combo moves and his smashes shouldn't be focusing on that.

So we want Lloyd to be killing characters off the top? I was under the impression that Lloyd was fairly bad at launching opponents high into the air. I thought most of his kills would be off the side. With that in mind it makes perfect sense for him to have a weak upsmash, a weak uptilt, AND a weak uair (kinda like idk, Falco?). Up smashes don't have to hit hard. Some characters simply won't kill off the top is all.

I personally thought that was pretty quick. If you think it's too slow, we can speed it up or edit when the hitboxes appear. Frankly it wont need that much editing at all to work correctly. Link's fair almost always connect both hits if you get hit by the first, and there's also considerable time between the two.

I'd like for tiger blade to be as fast as Link's fair too <_<.

We're not fabricating anything to discredit you. Please calm down.

It was supposed to be ironic <_<.

Yes. The up tilt is a good move. Sorry if you want your Lloyd to be different. We all have different opinions.

No, so far uptilt is a BROKEN move, which I don't think any of us want.



more later.

 

[Plaid02]

First, @Junahu, I'm pretty sure we already established that we were making Lloyd's tilts flashier. First off, they'll all be really useful, second off, most of the Brawl characters don't have nearly as many specific moves that could be fit into Brawl like Lloyd's can. Hence, why make up weird moves if he already has a bunch of them?

As for Sword Rain, making it a jab would make it completely ridiculous (rather than what we previously had, which was slightly weird) to make it turn into Alpha and Beta. It's a jab. Even more than that, though, is that Lloyd already has a jab that you use in the game... a lot. It would be practically criminal not to include that.

Moving on to Tempest. First off, one of the main points is that you can easily punish if Lloyd uses it and you're not directly on top of him/above him. The sideways hitbox is minimal. Also, I'm against having it last as long as you're suggesting. As I previously said, it would be sped up a bit so as to make sense, just like Tiger Blade (the jump height would also be reduced to a tiny jump off of the ground rather than almost a short hop). While you're right that it needs some endlag, you're suggesting too much. It should be punishable if you're next to Lloyd and he just decides to use it, but not very much so.

Moving back to your suggestion for the frames, make the duration shorter. I recommend spacing the hits less. It shouldn't last very long. Also, the endlag needs to be cut down to more like 15 frames. Unless I'm imagining frame speed wrong (I probably am), this should give Lloyd a little bit of a punishment window but not much. Keep in mind that there won't really be any sideways hit on his way down... Someone who shielded the first bit would certainly have time to do something as Lloyd's up there spinning. My last suggestion is that the damage be reduced to 8%.

I need to leave soon so I'll hurry this part.

Also, Lloyd's not really a weak hitter... Beast and Sonic Thrust, for example, are pretty strong. I'm going to point out, though, that characters who do not kill upwards well usually can kill sideways well and can spike and/or gimp. Lloyd can't do these last things, and I think we should make his usmash have kill capacity. I mean, it doesn't have to be crazy good, but it should be able kill once, say, Mario is at 110ish%. Gotta go now, I'm sure I'll have more to say later.

 

[Junahu]

I'm sorry, what? Tilts can be incredibly important. They are NOT throwaway. They're quick and extremely useful. (Snaaaaaaaaaaaaakeeeeee) . If Lucas' tilts were "throwaway", I wouldn't main him. Same for Plaid and Toon Link.

You already know this, but I wasn't referring to their usefullness, but their appearance. Tilts are throwaway in the way that they don't resemble any particular standout move the character can canonically perform

Tilts are very important moves though, so since a lot of the other places you've suggested for Tiger Blade and Sword Rain to go to are aren't good at all (In our opinion of course), giving Lloyd very good tilts would simply be a cool way of making Lloyd more unique, and put them (once again in our opinion) in a proper spot.

I'm sure everyone here wants useful tilts for Lloyd. I don't have any particular greivance with Tiger Blade as a foreward-tilt (though I would like to see it as an aerial too. It is his main jumping tech, so it makes sense to let him use it while jumping).
Since Tempest is Up-Special, there's not much stopping its grounded version from functioning as the proposed up-tilt, or at least in a similar way.

It seems most of us at least agree on how the moves should work
Perhaps we can try this to do just that:

I suggest we make a list of all the moves we want Lloyd to have, and we should go (MUCH SLOWER THIS TIME) down the list of moves again and
finally decide over where these moves are going.

Don't jump ahead. If we're still arguing over Tempest, don't move on to Tiger Blade and get everything confused.

That sounds fair. I would very much like to hear other people's opinions on these discussions, because nothing will get done if it's just the four of us argueing in a vacuum

As for Sword Rain, making it a jab would make it completely ridiculous (rather than what we previously had, which was slightly weird) to make it turn into Alpha and Beta. It's a jab. Even more than that, though, is that Lloyd already has a jab that you use in the game... a lot. It would be practically criminal not to include that.

Remind me why this Alpha/Beta extension is neccessary, over simply using Tiger Blade after Sword Rain? Also, if this extension is a choice beteen one Tech and another, surely it should be a choice between Sword Rain Beta (T) and Sonic Sword Rain (S).

Lloyd also has tilts in the game, and people use those... a lot.

Also, Lloyd's not really a weak hitter... Beast and Sonic Thrust, for example, are pretty strong.

That makes it sound like Lloyd's strongest attacks are horizontal.
And shouldn't Rising Falcon have vertical kill potential, it's only his strongest individual hit in the game.