TAKE THAT! Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney smashes the prosecution!

[AceAttorney9000]

I'm hearing Capcom is revealing two games for Jump Festa 2020, so that could be likely.

My biggest hopes for the two games Capcom reveals at Jump Festa are Darkstalkers IV (a long overdue sequel to a very underrated fighting game series) and the rumored Marvel vs. Capcom 4 (crossing my fingers for Wright's return after he wasn't in Infinite), but if it's only one or neither of those, I'll take Ace Attorney 7 being revealed there too.

 

[Dukemon102]

If I remember correctly. Capcom announced that Ace Attorney 7 was in development for Switch like 2 years ago. I think its announcement is inminent.

I hope they made a new engine for that game. I'm not a fan of the 3D models or the comic-booky look of the remastered games.
Old school pixel art is still the best style AA has had IMO. Specially in the DS games.
If they went full Wario Land Shake It and make the game a living anime. That would be amazing.

 

[Hinata]

If I remember correctly. Capcom announced that Ace Attorney 7 was in development for Switch like 2 years ago. I think its announcement is inminent.

I hope they made a new engine for that game. I'm not a fan of the 3D models or the comic-booky look of the remastered games.
Old school pixel art is still the best style AA has had IMO. Specially in the DS games.
If they went full Wario Land Shake It and make the game a living anime. That would be amazing.

I'd love to have another pixel art styled game, or even a hand-drawn one like Wario Land Shake It, but I dunno how possible it is. The AA devs have gone on record saying that they love how easy models are to animate, compared to pixel art.

 

[Dukemon102]

I'd love to have another pixel art styled game, or even a hand-drawn one like Wario Land Shake It, but I dunno how possible it is. The AA devs have gone on record saying that they love how easy models are to animate, compared to pixel art.

Oh. Everyone knows 3D models are way easier to work with than 2d sprites.
The thing is. 3D models age terribly.
DD, SoJ and the DGS games already look really bad IMO. And there is only so much a remasterization can do to disguise the polygon count.
The GBA and DS games still look great to this day and will always do.
If an indie studio can make an action / platformer game with HD handrawn sprites that will always look amazing (You know which one). Capcom can afford to have artists drawing high quality assets for an AA game. Which are statics poses, backgrounds and animations. The breakdowns would have to regress to their old short length tho.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

In defense of 3D models, Dual Destinies is still among the better looking 3DS games out there, and compared to how horrible stuff like Layton Miracle Mask or VLR looked vs their DS predeccesors, I think that's worth something. Whether they can make the transition to HD is what makes me more worried, because Fire Emblem and Pokemon did a pretty awful job at transitioning their visuals to far more powerful hardware, and those are generally more succesful franchises (much much much more succesful in Pokes case).
I'll also say, that while I like the old spritework, I absolutely cannot stand the HD treatment they got in re-releases and what became the standard since the mobile ports. Something about them just looks so much choppier and lifeless despite being technically cleaner, I'll rather have what the 3DS games attempted over that, I'll tell you that much.

 

[GoodGrief741]

This is totally anecdotal, but I just remembered the other day I was playing Smash with a bunch of friends, and somehow the topic of Phoenix Wright came up (I'm the only one who's played the games). One friend, despite having no interaction with the series at all, started humming the first Cornered theme.

Basically my point is that despite being niche, I think there's plenty of elements about it that are pretty iconic.

In defense of 3D models, Dual Destinies is still among the better looking 3DS games out there, and compared to how horrible stuff like Layton Miracle Mask or VLR looked vs their DS predeccesors, I think that's worth something. Whether they can make the transition to HD is what makes me more worried, because Fire Emblem and Pokemon did a pretty awful job at transitioning their visuals to far more powerful hardware, and those are generally more succesful franchises (much much much more succesful in Pokes case).
I'll also say, that while I like the old spritework, I absolutely cannot stand the HD treatment they got in re-releases and what became the standard since the mobile ports. Something about them just looks so much choppier and lifeless despite being technically cleaner, I'll rather have what the 3DS games attempted over that, I'll tell you that much.

Dunno man, I think Miracle Mask and VLR look great.

 

[Hinata]

This is totally anecdotal, but I just remembered the other day I was playing Smash with a bunch of friends, and somehow the topic of Phoenix Wright came up (I'm the only one who's played the games). One friend, despite having no interaction with the series at all, started humming the first Cornered theme.

Basically my point is that despite being niche, I think there's plenty of elements about it that are pretty iconic.

Everyone who cares about Smash reveals would recognize

at a glance, and as you mentioned, there are certain songs in the OST that transcend the fandom and have become well-known as video game songs in general.

I'd argue the Steel Samurai theme is one of them.

 

[Krankees]

I believe that he is a fit for TGA because he is a well-known character plus the original trilogy is on all current consoles and PC.

 

[TheYungLink]

Oh. Everyone knows 3D models are way easier to work with than 2d sprites.
The thing is. 3D models age terribly.
DD, SoJ and the DGS games already look really bad IMO. And there is only so much a remasterization can do to disguise the polygon count.
The GBA and DS games still look great to this day and will always do.
If an indie studio can make an action / platformer game with HD handrawn sprites that will always look amazing (You know which one). Capcom can afford to have artists drawing high quality assets for an AA game. Which are statics poses, backgrounds and animations. The breakdowns would have to regress to their old short length tho.

I don't think either DD or SoJ look bad, actually. As too-bright as the models can be in DD, otherwise the character models in both games look pretty great given the art style. The problem they DO have is that they are animated in a way that makes them uncanny to look at.

This is because, for whatever reason, Capcom tried to copy the sprite-based games' style of animation, with the very still character portraits standing there very stiffly aside from the face, which animated to talk, only switching to new poses suddenly with a sound effect cue with no in-between animations. It's to the point where Trucy bouncing up and down lightly in Apollo Justice was so notable; very few Ace Attorney characters ever get "idle animations" anywhere outside of being questioned in court. None of us really cared though because it was more than understandable given the limitations of sprites.

When you try to do that with 3D models, it looks VERY off. It took me a few hours for me to get used to it, and I don't say that as a good thing. I want to see Athena standing in front of me with a light breathing animation, or going from one pose to another pose with in-between animations, because this is a 3D game now and that's just what looks natural in 3D. It's to the point where one of the reasons SoJ looks better was because Capcom was more comfortable doing 3D animations in the Ace Attorney games. Look at how Trucy animates her plot-important dance in Case 2 of that game, or how a suspect being channeled by a spirit channeler transitions from one pose to another in Case 3. The "snap from one pose to a completely different one" technique is still being used, but the fluid transitions between different poses are also more frequent and help round out the style of animation in SoJ. Before SoJ, the 3D model animation in Dai Gyakuten Saiban looks amazing because there's far more fluid animation than "suddenly switch the pose" animation.

I guess this is my long way of saying the models aren't the problem for me, just the animation work. The models themselves look great and retain the classic Ace Attorney look.

 

[Dukemon102]

I don't think either DD or SoJ look bad, actually. As too-bright as the models can be in DD, otherwise the character models in both games look pretty great given the art style. The problem they DO have is that they are animated in a way that makes them uncanny to look at.

This is because, for whatever reason, Capcom tried to copy the sprite-based games' style of animation, with the very still character portraits standing there very stiffly aside from the face, which animated to talk, only switching to new poses suddenly with a sound effect cue with no in-between animations. It's to the point where Trucy bouncing up and down lightly in Apollo Justice was so notable; very few Ace Attorney characters ever get "idle animations" anywhere outside of being questioned in court. None of us really cared though because it was more than understandable given the limitations of sprites.

When you try to do that with 3D models, it looks VERY off. It took me a few hours for me to get used to it, and I don't say that as a good thing. I want to see Athena standing in front of me with a light breathing animation, or going from one pose to another pose with in-between animations, because this is a 3D game now and that's just what looks natural in 3D. It's to the point where one of the reasons SoJ looks better was because Capcom was more comfortable doing 3D animations in the Ace Attorney games. Look at how Trucy animates her plot-important dance in Case 2 of that game, or how a suspect being channeled by a spirit channeler transitions from one pose to another in Case 3. The "snap from one pose to a completely different one" technique is still being used, but the fluid transitions between different poses are also more frequent and help round out the style of animation in SoJ. Before SoJ, the 3D model animation in Dai Gyakuten Saiban looks amazing because there's far more fluid animation than "suddenly switch the pose" animation.

I guess this is my long way of saying the models aren't the problem for me, just the animation work. The models themselves look great and retain the classic Ace Attorney look.

I knew I had a problem with the way the 3D models look. The characters to me look like toys, or made of plastic because all feels so stiff for trying to imitate the old style. It's very apparent when you upscale the games to HD that some polygonal stuff needs constant movement or otherwise doesn't look natural (That scarf in 5-DLC is so memorable for a reason LOL).
I'm not saying the models per say are bad. The animations like the Dance of Devotion were cool... (except that they still bother to pay for anime scenes for a reason?) But compared to any game in HD.... yeah. It's going to look bad, basically an inevitable problem with 3D. I am actually scared to go back to some PS2 or Gamecube games for this reason.

I like how they used the 3D transition to make investigations on the crime scene way cooler and interesting. That is something they should keep.

Actually. Maybe a Dragon Ball FighterZ or Persona 5 style (The portraits and menus) when they combine the best of both worlds would be the best solution.
2D portraits of people. And everything else could be polygonal.
With the arrival of HD, I'm actually excited if we could play the Ace Attorney game that the cover and promotional artworks are showing to us.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

Dunno man, I think Miracle Mask and VLR look great.

High disagree, Layton just looks ugly with how overdone the character outlines are, not helping is how generally charming the hand-drawn sprites where by comparison

I don't remember much about the animations but I don't recall them being spectactular. Thankfully Azran Legacy massively improved over the model work.
As for VLR, I'd go easier on it if it wasn't filled with stills like these that look absolutely atrocious and really kill any mood the game might have been going for

Spoiler: VLR spoilers

It doesn't help 999 has some of the prettiest spriteworks I've ever seen on a game, it's one of the few things I'll still the praise the game for all these years later. And unlike Layton the franchise didn't really improve in its last 3DS entry, it got better models...at the expense of some of the most laughably bad animations I've seen on a 3DS game (and I know it was already some sort of miracle the game happened, won't take away my criticism that it wasn't animated well at all).
Honestly while I still don't like it Miracle Mask doesn't look as bad as I remembered, but VLR is even worse than I thought.

It's to the point where one of the reasons SoJ looks better was because Capcom was more comfortable doing 3D animations in the Ace Attorney games.

I'll disagree with this part here, as while SoJ has more ambitious attempts on animations that take advantage of the 3D models, the performance of the game is pretty darn bad, and given that besides scenes like that both it and DD look about the same, I'll take the game with a far more stable FPS than something that's slowing down constantly and straining my eyes in the process. But they're both more appealing to the eye than the Layton crossover.

 

[GoodGrief741]

High disagree, Layton just looks ugly with how overdone the character outlines are, not helping is how generally charming the hand-drawn sprites where by comparison

I don't remember much about the animations but I don't recall them being spectactular. Thankfully Azran Legacy massively improved over the model work.
As for VLR, I'd go easier on it if it wasn't filled with stills like these that look absolutely atrocious and really kill any mood the game might have been going for

Spoiler: VLR spoilers

It doesn't help 999 has some of the prettiest spriteworks I've ever seen on a game, it's one of the few things I'll still the praise the game for all these years later. And unlike Layton the franchise didn't really improve in its last 3DS entry, it got better models...at the expense of some of the most laughably bad animations I've seen on a 3DS game (and I know it was already some sort of miracle the game happened, won't take away my criticism that it wasn't animated well at all).
Honestly while I still don't like it Miracle Mask doesn't look as bad as I remembered, but VLR is even worse than I thought.


I'll disagree with this part here, as while SoJ has more ambitious attempts on animations that take advantage of the 3D models, the performance of the game is pretty darn bad, and given that besides scenes like that both it and DD look about the same, I'll take the game with a far more stable FPS than something that's slowing down constantly and straining my eyes in the process. But they're both more appealing to the eye than the Layton crossover.

I think Luke looks really cute in that screenshot, and I'm pretty sure the intention with shots like that in VLR is for them to look creepy, but let's just agree to disagree.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

Eh, I disagree, that doesn't look unsettling, it looks plain goofy. But the visuals are the least of my problems with VLR, and that has nothing to do with AA so I'll leave it there.
While I'm not big on the majority of the post Trilogy entries, I do think the franchise has kept pretty respectable production values through the years, so I do wonder how they'd handle an HD game for a genre as niche as a visual novel. I think most PC games in the genre usually just use hand drawn stills, but eh, getting rid of the animated sprites/models would really take a blow on the series charm and personality. Given I don't expect a return to 2D, I'll hope they'll dive down further on heavy stylization, similar to what P5 did.

 

[Sonsa]

It's very interesting seeing peoples' preferences! Personally I don't like how VLR or ZTD look, while I like 999's look a lot, but I also think Miracle Mask did a great job making everything look cute! And while I think DD did good, SoJ did better, and DGS did best look-wise, I still feel like some important characters, Phoenix, Apollo, Trucy, and especially Klavier look a bit off and I still can't get used to them... but they did Larry perfectly! I guess it's just a preference thing, nothing anyone needs to be "right" about, just very interesting! I'm fine with AA7 using models, I'd be fine with 2D or 3D, I can only hope Phoenix looks less "off" to me personally!

As for Smash, I've been so zen for a while haha, my hopes got too high a while ago where I think he's definitely in and I'm just waiting for when. Chatting with friends saying how I think if any Capcom character makes it, Phoenix is #1, even fan polls show as much, but some friends go hmmmm nooo probably Resident Evil or Dante, but I'm just quietly waiting, seeing Dante get deconfirmed, for like, a third time, and now collecting the Spirits of all the best possible Resident Evil reps, I'm just patiently waiting~

 

[3DSNinja]

Dante only got deconfirmed for #5, and Resident Evil is dead... It's between Phoenix and Dante now

 

[GoodGrief741]

It's very interesting seeing peoples' preferences! Personally I don't like how VLR or ZTD look, while I like 999's look a lot, but I also think Miracle Mask did a great job making everything look cute! And while I think DD did good, SoJ did better, and DGS did best look-wise, I still feel like some important characters, Phoenix, Apollo, Trucy, and especially Klavier look a bit off and I still can't get used to them... but they did Larry perfectly! I guess it's just a preference thing, nothing anyone needs to be "right" about, just very interesting! I'm fine with AA7 using models, I'd be fine with 2D or 3D, I can only hope Phoenix looks less "off" to me personally!

As for Smash, I've been so zen for a while haha, my hopes got too high a while ago where I think he's definitely in and I'm just waiting for when. Chatting with friends saying how I think if any Capcom character makes it, Phoenix is #1, even fan polls show as much, but some friends go hmmmm nooo probably Resident Evil or Dante, but I'm just quietly waiting, seeing Dante get deconfirmed, for like, a third time, and now collecting the Spirits of all the best possible Resident Evil reps, I'm just patiently waiting~

Klavier looks very off, like his poly count is super low.

 

[3DSNinja]

Honestly I'll admit it... I have only played the classic trilogy and the Investigations games. Haven't touched Apollo or anything since.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

Dante only got deconfirmed for #5, and Resident Evil is dead... It's between Phoenix and Dante now

if Phoenix ain't fighter 5 that is, and if that happens it pretty much becomes a question of whether Capcom could get another DLC fighter before Dantes reign of terror begins.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Honestly I'll admit it... I have only played the classic trilogy and the Investigations games. Haven't touched Apollo or anything since.

If you liked the classic trilogy, you should try out Apollo and the DGS games, imo Takumi's writing is the best. If the AAI games are more your speed, you'll probably enjoy Dual Destinies, and maybe Spirit of Justice too.

Honestly, the cases are all great, the main points of controversy are about some of those games' overarching plotlines.

 

[Sonsa]

Klavier looks very off, like his poly count is super low.

For me, it's his face...everything else is fine, but his face... same with Trucy, but she looks more right to me, but Klavier's face... While he's not my type, he is hot in AA4, but in 3D I don't know...it might be little things like his mouth being a little open during his point, OH got it, his eyes always bothered me, but a big thing MIGHT be that in the 2D art his eyebrows go over his hair, but in 3D they don't! They have his hair be a little transparent so you can see it, but it ain't the same, maybe that's what's getting me? But the eyes and smile themselves are off too...to meeee personallyyy...

 

[3DSNinja]

If you liked the classic trilogy, you should try out Apollo and the DGS games, imo Takumi's writing is the best. If the AAI games are more your speed, you'll probably enjoy Dual Destinies, and maybe Spirit of Justice too.

Honestly, the cases are all great, the main points of controversy are about some of those games' overarching plotlines.

Ahhh. Honestly I enjoyed both equally

 

[Krankees]

To anyone who hasn't seen this article yet, it's a famitsu column from 2005 about sakurai complimenting the E3 trailer for gyakuten saiban on the DS for it's presentation style. It honestly helps keep my hopes up.
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/...ant-to-watch-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-124/

 

[AceAttorney9000]

To anyone who hasn't seen this article yet, it's a famitsu column from 2005 about sakurai complimenting the E3 trailer for gyakuten saiban on the DS for it's presentation style. It honestly helps keep my hopes up.
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/...ant-to-watch-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-124/

There's also this picture from back in 2016 with Sakurai hanging out with Shu Takumi (the creator of the Ace Attorney series and director of the first three games) and Hideki Kamiya (creator of the Devil May Cry and Bayonetta series, as well as the Japanese voice for Godot in the third Ace Attorney game).

Granted, this picture more than likely means nothing in regards to Smash right now, but at the very least, I think it implies that Sakurai and Takumi are on friendly terms with each other, which could make Wright's inclusion a bit easier.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

https://t.co/xRqCCWOorc

GameExplain's Jon Cartwright weighs his words in on AT, spirits and Mii costumes not mattering in the slightest.

While it's good for him to do this, one has to keep in mind that future inclusions have to be within the realm of reason (I mean, I have a hard time seeing Dr. Kawashima, the Yakuman player, and the chef from Personal Trainer: Cooking become playable).

As far as I see it, the only content that really affects anything is whatever comes after the base game.

The issue with that is that the "realm of reason" once kept out numerous characters who are now in Smash, so that realm keeps expanding.

Really the only "rule" I see never being broken is the "They have to originate in a video game" rule.....everything else is fair game I think. (or at the very least, in a grey area)

 

[Plank08]

Phoenix would be awesome so yeah I support

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

The issue with that is that the "realm of reason" once kept out numerous characters who are now in Smash, so that realm keeps expanding.

Really the only "rule" I see never being broken is the "They have to originate in a video game" rule.....everything else is fair game I think. (or at the very least, in a grey area)

Okay, but what I'm saying is, that I don't think literally every single spirit would become playable at some point or another.

Like the Subspace Bomb. Really, I mean, it would be a bit much to expect that to become playable, seeing as it has no limbs, feet, mouth or anything else...

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Okay, but what I'm saying is, that I don't think literally every single spirit would become playable at some point or another.

Like the Subspace Bomb. Really, I mean, it would be a bit much to expect that to become playable, seeing as it has no limbs, feet, mouth or anything else...

Well of course not that's extremely unreasonable. (I mean there's like 900+ non fighter spirits )

I haven't watched the video just yet, he's not really suggesting that is he?.....

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Well of course not that's extremely unreasonable. (I mean there's like 900+ non fighter spirits )

I haven't watched the video just yet, he's not really suggesting that is he?.....

Nah, I wouldn't think so. Fairly certain he's focusing on the more noteworthy characters.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Uh, I just realized that I'm not on the Support list, for some reason. Can someone add me please?

 

[fogbadge]

guys why dont we wait until sakurai says dlc is done before say anything is definitive?

 

[Dukemon102]

Honestly I'll admit it... I have only played the classic trilogy and the Investigations games. Haven't touched Apollo or anything since.

You are lucky that we already have sequels to Apollo Justice. Because AA4 for me felt very incomplete.
I started to play the series after Dual Destinies came out, so I wonder how the fandom felt for those 6 years without a proper continuation to the story,
AJ, DD and SoJ are worth a playtrough IMO. They are very "nitpickable" if you start to analyze things. But overall they are enjoyable games.

 

[Krankees]

Uh, I just realized that I'm not on the Support list, for some reason. Can someone add me please?

Can I also be on the support list.

 

[Arctiq]

Can I also be on the support list.

same with me. I asked before, but I think I got mixed in with the hype.

 

[Douglas J. Walker 94]

Dante only got deconfirmed for #5, and Resident Evil is dead... It's between Phoenix and Dante now

Dante got deconfirmed. Remember (You said it's a tie between Dante And Phoenix Wright).

Personally. I hope that if we another Capcom character as the 5th fighter. It ends up being either Amaterasu From Okami. Viewtiful Joe. Pheonix Wright (Since Those three didn't get the reject button).

Also. The Resident Evil spirit event mainly feels as if it's saying a Capcom character is next as the 5th (Why would have that be an event if Capcom wasn't getting a third rep). I could be wrong about that.

BTW. Could somebody please list me as A Phoenix Wright supporter. Smash Ultimate could use some Visual Novel Game Genre representation.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

To anyone who hasn't seen this article yet, it's a famitsu column from 2005 about sakurai complimenting the E3 trailer for gyakuten saiban on the DS for it's presentation style. It honestly helps keep my hopes up.
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/...ant-to-watch-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-124/

I do kinda wish we'd have also gotten his overall thoughts on the franchise, I'm guessing he's played them given his comments on the VA and scenario of the trailer.

 

[Krankees]

I wonder if having a decent anime helps his chances.

 

[BFMS234]

same with me. I asked before, but I think I got mixed in with the hype.

If it is not to much trouble could I possibly get on the support list as well?

 

[ThunderSageNun]

I wonder if having a decent anime helps his chances.

no, besides the quality of the adaptation being debatable, delving into other mediums really doesn't mean anything for a characters chances in Smash. Otherwise we'd likely have a Tales of rep already given how many those receive (just to give an example as there's a lot of games with animated adaptations).

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

At best, only Pokémon's media affects anything, since the whole thing grew beyond a video game (and more or less gives Sak a general idea which recent Pokémon could fit his design philosophy the best).

Series like Resident Evil and Viewtiful Joe got anime productions, and they sure as heck still aren't playable in here. Plus the Netflix Castlevania series hasn't even helped Trevor Belmont.

 

[GoodGrief741]

At best, only Pokémon's media affects anything, since the whole thing grew beyond a video game (and more or less gives Sak a general idea which recent Pokémon could fit his design philosophy the best).

Series like Resident Evil and Viewtiful Joe got anime productions, and they sure as heck still aren't playable in here. Plus the Netflix Castlevania series hasn't even helped Trevor Belmont.

Trevor Belmont is the biggest missed opportunity in the game.