Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
Wow, my fingers would've fallen off by then O_O
How does that FoD Shadow Ball glitch thingy work?
How does that FoD Shadow Ball glitch thingy work?
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Taj is the best Mewtwo (Ask Taj Stuff Thread)
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That wasn't a glitch. It was basically just a lucky shot.
If you've ever played against a Samus, you'll probably have noticed the few times where projectiles tend to deflect off of an opponent's shield (Not to be confused with powershielding). Basically, the shadow ball curved over the Marth's head, as it came down it deflected off of the back of his shield (keeping the active hitbox) and bounced to Marth's heel where he was shield stabbed.
It was glorious. It's not something that can be replicated very easily. I've never landed another shadowball like that in my entire career.
If you've ever played against a Samus, you'll probably have noticed the few times where projectiles tend to deflect off of an opponent's shield (Not to be confused with powershielding). Basically, the shadow ball curved over the Marth's head, as it came down it deflected off of the back of his shield (keeping the active hitbox) and bounced to Marth's heel where he was shield stabbed.
It was glorious. It's not something that can be replicated very easily. I've never landed another shadowball like that in my entire career.
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOerb2oIFE&feature=player_detailpage#t=59s
Huh? I was thinking of this.
Huh? I was thinking of this.
mers
Smash Ace
You mean the part where the video is reversed?
Oh, that's just the footage playing in reverse, lol.
I was talking about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=capoDHrZJng#t=7m21s
Pi
Smash Hero
stingers
Smash Obsessed
**** marth
what does a poor mewtwo do against marth
especially one that stays grounded and grabs a lot...
what does a poor mewtwo do against marth
especially one that stays grounded and grabs a lot...
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
u gutta be patient. wait for him to try to hit u with a laggy move, they can't resist, partially because its easier to combo into kill moves then land them alone. high ceiling means marth doesn't want to miss his kill window.
also get him above u. nair on platforms does work. and be comfortable off stage and on the edge. not alot of space. capitalize when u get the chance don't miss the bread n butter (don't burn yo toast!) and don't play too aggressive or u will end up catching a bs tipper or west coast your way into a dair.
if marth is smart he will grab more....don't put yourself in shield, use m2's roll, its far.
(specifically FoD vs marth. but still pretty general)
also get him above u. nair on platforms does work. and be comfortable off stage and on the edge. not alot of space. capitalize when u get the chance don't miss the bread n butter (don't burn yo toast!) and don't play too aggressive or u will end up catching a bs tipper or west coast your way into a dair.
if marth is smart he will grab more....don't put yourself in shield, use m2's roll, its far.
(specifically FoD vs marth. but still pretty general)
Lemondude829
Smash Journeyman
I've been playin mewtwo for a while now (since taj blew up the world with his amazingness at genesis)
and one thing I've noticed is that i REALLY like FoD with mewtwo. usmashes work so well on the lower 2 platforms and the edges work with you very well for recovery. Good **** Taj, my m2 interest has been pretty high ever since FC diamond when you took out an entire crew with it. Keep it up, and hopefully i'll start pullin out some **** that helps out the community.
and one thing I've noticed is that i REALLY like FoD with mewtwo. usmashes work so well on the lower 2 platforms and the edges work with you very well for recovery. Good **** Taj, my m2 interest has been pretty high ever since FC diamond when you took out an entire crew with it. Keep it up, and hopefully i'll start pullin out some **** that helps out the community.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
the marth I play really doesnt use laggy moves too much...its kinda bs...hes really good at not being baited. hes good at spacing too, gets tipper fsmashes like candy x.x
If he forward smashes you, you can always punish it with WD OOS shield unless he tippers your shield. No matter how good his spacing is, forward smash is a laggy attack because you can easily move out of tipper range or within tipper range if you don't combo into it. The goal is to play in a zone where you can slip inside of his range and you can use your down tilt before he can attack you or you attack when he's in vulnerable frames between aerials or landing on the ground.
You don't want to muscle yourself into that range though like most novice Luigi/Samus/Peach/Sheik players that have fast hit recovery and go for trades. You need to be a bit more meticulous because Mewtwo doesn't have the same priority from his neutral air that those characters do.
It is a bit technical, but if you play characters like Mario/Doc/Luigi/Samus, you can apply the same strategies with Mewtwo for getting inside of a Marth without trading hits. Basically pushing into him with a hard shield and shield grabbing the forward air, spacing down tilt against his aerials, getting Marth to commit to something and invading his space during the minimal lag of a jab or tilt.
You don't want to muscle yourself into that range though like most novice Luigi/Samus/Peach/Sheik players that have fast hit recovery and go for trades. You need to be a bit more meticulous because Mewtwo doesn't have the same priority from his neutral air that those characters do.
It is a bit technical, but if you play characters like Mario/Doc/Luigi/Samus, you can apply the same strategies with Mewtwo for getting inside of a Marth without trading hits. Basically pushing into him with a hard shield and shield grabbing the forward air, spacing down tilt against his aerials, getting Marth to commit to something and invading his space during the minimal lag of a jab or tilt.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
anybody feeling dair is underused? does a decent about of damage and has hella stum, fair or another dair is like guarunteed.
Underused? I think it just sucks. It doesn't have the range to space aginst shieldgrabbing against most characters, Mewtwo is usually too big to cross up with it so he gets grabbed anyway, it is an easy meteor cancel, and it can be cced and ASDIed.
It only like it for punishing get up attacks and easy tech chases. It just doesn't give much utility outside of that because it trades too easily, too... imo
When it connects, you can get a phat combo though. It's just pretty unreliable at higher levels.
It only like it for punishing get up attacks and easy tech chases. It just doesn't give much utility outside of that because it trades too easily, too... imo
When it connects, you can get a phat combo though. It's just pretty unreliable at higher levels.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I dig. I probably was trying to get too hyped on the swagtastic combos.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
i mean, the marth i play doesnt fsmash much, he just dash dances and grabs a lot lol. but when he does get an fsmash its pretty much always a tipper
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
How do you shieldgrab Fair if most Marths space it well? How do you land Dtilts against aerials when crouching Mewtwo still gets hit by Marth's Nair?
I have a lot of trouble with the MU.
They're trying to space forward air, so you wavedash into them with shield up to keep the distance close and depending on how much they wanted to retreat, you can get a shield grab. It doesn't work every time, it requires a bit of timing, and they have to not hard retreat in order for it to work. If you get them to float back, you get good position on stage in return.
You can also dash dance in order to bait out swings so that you can get inside.
You just shield Marth's neutral air and WD out of shield, or you WD back if he approaches with neutral air.
@Stingers, you can make Marth do something by throwing a shadow ball. DD grabs are strong against Mewtwo, but this is where you have to read/react and call his retreat with long wave dash down tilt or call his approach and deny it with a quick down tilt or a short WD back.
If Marth gives you enough distance, you can use shadow balls to get him to stop his DD and make him shield/jab/jump/sidestep/roll/get hit/ whatever. Based on what you get him to do, you want to find a way to maximize your chance of getting an opener. Keep switching up your spacing when he's in the air. Push into him, throw a shadow ball as he's landing to get him to commit to an aerial before you approach. Get him to roll if you forced his shield with a shadow ball by WDing into his space just outside of grab range and use tilts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5t6bvC3tMU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8Px-s1Shx8&feature=related
Just watch these examples of how to dismantle an average Marth. Of course the better the Marth, the more difficult it is to pull off, but the tactics remain the same. If you watch me vs. IB, I still apply the same formulas.
You can also dash dance in order to bait out swings so that you can get inside.
You just shield Marth's neutral air and WD out of shield, or you WD back if he approaches with neutral air.
@Stingers, you can make Marth do something by throwing a shadow ball. DD grabs are strong against Mewtwo, but this is where you have to read/react and call his retreat with long wave dash down tilt or call his approach and deny it with a quick down tilt or a short WD back.
If Marth gives you enough distance, you can use shadow balls to get him to stop his DD and make him shield/jab/jump/sidestep/roll/get hit/ whatever. Based on what you get him to do, you want to find a way to maximize your chance of getting an opener. Keep switching up your spacing when he's in the air. Push into him, throw a shadow ball as he's landing to get him to commit to an aerial before you approach. Get him to roll if you forced his shield with a shadow ball by WDing into his space just outside of grab range and use tilts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5t6bvC3tMU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8Px-s1Shx8&feature=related
Just watch these examples of how to dismantle an average Marth. Of course the better the Marth, the more difficult it is to pull off, but the tactics remain the same. If you watch me vs. IB, I still apply the same formulas.
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
Taj, I heard from the Genesis2 commentary that you were using Mewtwo primarily against floaties, and Marth against spacies. I know your Marth v. Falco is really good, but are there any reasons you chose to use Mewtwo primarily against floaties? Maybe some insight into the way you approach matchups against floaties/spacies?
Personally, I struggle a lot against characters that focus on trading hits like Samus and Peach. I feel as though mewtwo needs to hit very hard in order to keep up, and it's hard to combo Samus.
Personally, I struggle a lot against characters that focus on trading hits like Samus and Peach. I feel as though mewtwo needs to hit very hard in order to keep up, and it's hard to combo Samus.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
taj, what do you think the ratio of the MU is?
Im making it my melee goal to learn the marth/mewtwo MU. its really ****ing hard, so if I can do this...I CAN DO ANYTHING
I also have a marth that plays gay as hell to practice against so perfect.
I wish I could get videos so you could just tell me what I was doing wrong x.x but oh well
Im making it my melee goal to learn the marth/mewtwo MU. its really ****ing hard, so if I can do this...I CAN DO ANYTHING
I also have a marth that plays gay as hell to practice against so perfect.
I wish I could get videos so you could just tell me what I was doing wrong x.x but oh well
You definitely don't want to fall too far behind in percentage, but the goal is to slip inside of characters like Samus and Peach and once you pop them up, Mewtwo can essentially play a lot like Marth in forcing them in to bad position or do a lot of damage to them as they try to get back down.
Samus and Peach can be pretty difficult for Mewtwo, though. I was watching Kaostar struggling a bit against Darrell's Samus. The most important thing is not committing to anything unless you know you have a solid defense. Your ability to shield and move out of shield are extremely important against a character like Samus. The goal is to just get in, pop her up, do your damage and then get in for a grab and up throw. It's pretty easy to force Samus into the KO up throw if you have good edgeguarding, too.
It's not really about doing bit combos, but crispy links. It's about knowing what you can get away with, what things they can follow up with if you try to hit them and what things you throw out that won't trade. In a floaty war, the vast majority of Samus/Peach/Luigi players will try to muscle their neutral air out on you because it is "generally" safe. It's about knowing how you can hit them before they can get their neutral air out and knowing when you can bait it out so you can get a free grab and keep them in bad position longer. They fall slowly so it's pretty easy to put pressure on them and make them do something or push buttons and punish them.
I don't think I have any footage against Samus at the moment, but I've done pretty well against every top Samus I've ever played since 2007.
I'll see if I can record some matches against some local Samus players here and show you the basics.
Also, I didn't primarily use Mewtwo for floaties. I just played Mewtwo when I felt like it at Genesis 2. I do prefer Marth against spacies though.
@Stingers- I think Marth vs. Mewtwo is something like 70-30 Marth. I like the match-up, so I feel like it's more like a 60-40 when I play it though. You have to avoid the hard hits, then Marth has a lot of trouble killing you until you're in uptilt or upthrow range. (~190% up throw KO) It takes a lot of practice learning how to slip inside of a good Marth, but once you do, the match-up is a lot easier.
Samus and Peach can be pretty difficult for Mewtwo, though. I was watching Kaostar struggling a bit against Darrell's Samus. The most important thing is not committing to anything unless you know you have a solid defense. Your ability to shield and move out of shield are extremely important against a character like Samus. The goal is to just get in, pop her up, do your damage and then get in for a grab and up throw. It's pretty easy to force Samus into the KO up throw if you have good edgeguarding, too.
It's not really about doing bit combos, but crispy links. It's about knowing what you can get away with, what things they can follow up with if you try to hit them and what things you throw out that won't trade. In a floaty war, the vast majority of Samus/Peach/Luigi players will try to muscle their neutral air out on you because it is "generally" safe. It's about knowing how you can hit them before they can get their neutral air out and knowing when you can bait it out so you can get a free grab and keep them in bad position longer. They fall slowly so it's pretty easy to put pressure on them and make them do something or push buttons and punish them.
I don't think I have any footage against Samus at the moment, but I've done pretty well against every top Samus I've ever played since 2007.
I'll see if I can record some matches against some local Samus players here and show you the basics.
Also, I didn't primarily use Mewtwo for floaties. I just played Mewtwo when I felt like it at Genesis 2. I do prefer Marth against spacies though.
@Stingers- I think Marth vs. Mewtwo is something like 70-30 Marth. I like the match-up, so I feel like it's more like a 60-40 when I play it though. You have to avoid the hard hits, then Marth has a lot of trouble killing you until you're in uptilt or upthrow range. (~190% up throw KO) It takes a lot of practice learning how to slip inside of a good Marth, but once you do, the match-up is a lot easier.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
yea I wasn't patient enough and often just attacked even tho I knew I shouldn't. idk why I got caught up in "trying to make something happen" I threw out alot of falling aerials which were easy to punish. I guess I was trying to cheese him out of stocks, getting a dair to fair combo at a sub 100 percent. and I allowed his aggressiveness dictate my play.
but yea not getting behind is really important. most floaties would lose to m2s uair from below but all of them generally beat m2 going head to head in the air. with the exception of them being above you, if they are in the air u should be on the ground trying to disrupt their spacing. vs the floats you can usually get at least a popup to uair but depending on character and situation u can get a fair or neutral air. I recommend testing the waters to see if they will throw out that quick aerial. if they don't try to be more aggressive after u get them in the air, once they realize they can get out of something try to bait the attack. dash and then shield, triangle jump, empty jump at them (sh), etc. u can often punish after the aerial or try throwing a fc shadow ball. that should hold them back a bit then u gotta just play the game and take what they give u.
but yea not getting behind is really important. most floaties would lose to m2s uair from below but all of them generally beat m2 going head to head in the air. with the exception of them being above you, if they are in the air u should be on the ground trying to disrupt their spacing. vs the floats you can usually get at least a popup to uair but depending on character and situation u can get a fair or neutral air. I recommend testing the waters to see if they will throw out that quick aerial. if they don't try to be more aggressive after u get them in the air, once they realize they can get out of something try to bait the attack. dash and then shield, triangle jump, empty jump at them (sh), etc. u can often punish after the aerial or try throwing a fc shadow ball. that should hold them back a bit then u gotta just play the game and take what they give u.
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
sorry if this comes out fuzzy sounding but can you do stuff out of an aerial that's been DJC'd so close to the ground that it lands and auto cancels during the first few frames OoS or is it so slow that it's about the same as shield dropping?
I think it's about the same as shield dropping. I remember Kaostar posting his findings on this, and if you're frame perfect I think it was useful, but I don't think it's worth practicing when you have a good WD OOS and strong reverse grabs.
Even if Marth Forward smashes you while you're facing backwards, you can do perfect wavedash out out of shield into grab without even turning around and it is a guaranteed punish.
Even if Marth Forward smashes you while you're facing backwards, you can do perfect wavedash out out of shield into grab without even turning around and it is a guaranteed punish.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
frame perfectly, which is doable, djc oos is a bit faster than just letting your shield drop, but not by much. its useful vs laggier moves if u want to make use of m2s range on his smashes/tilts or just hit them with something different. but like taj said wd oos is fine, and there are more options out of grab anyway.
bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it too much and just get comfortable knowing when and when you can't punish oos.
a new thing ive been working on a bit is auto canceling uair from underneath a platform with a full hop into a grab. by now people respect nair while they are waking up from a platform so they shield.
on fast fallers you can extend your upthrow combos by jumping just above a platform and djc a fair. in the right situation it lets you upthrow djc fair regrab even on platform stages.
bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it too much and just get comfortable knowing when and when you can't punish oos.
a new thing ive been working on a bit is auto canceling uair from underneath a platform with a full hop into a grab. by now people respect nair while they are waking up from a platform so they shield.
on fast fallers you can extend your upthrow combos by jumping just above a platform and djc a fair. in the right situation it lets you upthrow djc fair regrab even on platform stages.
ShadowSpear
Smash Apprentice
Yo, i was at my second Tournament a few days ago and i got to play lots of people with my M2. There were a few match ups i honestly enjoyed and some i absolutely disliked... My question to Taj, Kaostar and everyone else, is what are some match ups you guys personally Enjoy/Hate?
Mine are=
Enjoyed:
M2 vs Peach
M2 vs DK
M2 vs Sheik
M2 vs Falco
M2 vs Samus
M2 vs Roy
Had Mixed Feelings:
M2 vs Fox
M2 vs Ganon
M2 vs Doc
M2 vs Zelda
Hated:
M2 vs C. Falcon
M2 vs Marth
M2 vs Jiggs
Mine are=
Enjoyed:
M2 vs Peach
M2 vs DK
M2 vs Sheik
M2 vs Falco
M2 vs Samus
M2 vs Roy
Had Mixed Feelings:
M2 vs Fox
M2 vs Ganon
M2 vs Doc
M2 vs Zelda
Hated:
M2 vs C. Falcon
M2 vs Marth
M2 vs Jiggs
stingers
Smash Obsessed
i love fighting jiggs with m2 =] uthrow is so satisfying
Hmm... I don't think I LIKE any match-up with Mewtwo.
I enjoy fighting Marth, Falco, Peach, Falcon, Sheik, and ICs the most with M2 though.
I dislike everyone else for the most part. DK is kinda weird, and and low tiers in general are kind of just touchy feely.
Jiggs is definitely one of my least favorite just because of the length of the matches.
I'm with you on your mixed feeling list. All of those characters just depend on if you're on and/or they play a certain style. The Marios are one of the best low tier killers, because they're so solid against everyone that's not top tier. You just gotta beat them out in the basics.
I enjoy fighting Marth, Falco, Peach, Falcon, Sheik, and ICs the most with M2 though.
I dislike everyone else for the most part. DK is kinda weird, and and low tiers in general are kind of just touchy feely.
Jiggs is definitely one of my least favorite just because of the length of the matches.
I'm with you on your mixed feeling list. All of those characters just depend on if you're on and/or they play a certain style. The Marios are one of the best low tier killers, because they're so solid against everyone that's not top tier. You just gotta beat them out in the basics.
ShadowSpear
Smash Apprentice
Right Right, i see where your coming from. Well, i was playing against Rock Crock's DK quite a few times and at first i was really thrown of by the way he fought with DK but, then after a while i started to pick up on his particular play style and the matches became a lot more easy/enjoyable. And as for Jiggelypuff.....let's just say me and her are NOT on good terms right now... -_-
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
enjoy: dk, samus, falcon, roy, yoshi, peach, marth, luigi, fox(can be super frustrating), link.
hate: doc, m2, zelda, mario, most low tiers are kinda boring.
mixed: falco, ic(I just don't play it much), yl, puff, ganon, pikachu, sheik, bowser.
I kinda like the challenge of fox. I at least like that I am not restricted in my movements compared to falco. most of the mixed feelings are just frustrating at times vs certain styles. I strangely like luigi, but hate doc/mario. low tiers range from boring to fun.
hate: doc, m2, zelda, mario, most low tiers are kinda boring.
mixed: falco, ic(I just don't play it much), yl, puff, ganon, pikachu, sheik, bowser.
I kinda like the challenge of fox. I at least like that I am not restricted in my movements compared to falco. most of the mixed feelings are just frustrating at times vs certain styles. I strangely like luigi, but hate doc/mario. low tiers range from boring to fun.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
hey, if I got a video vs this marth main could y'all help me out with specific parts of the MU? I feel so frustrated when I play him lol, I feel like I've hit a standstill. this goes for any of you taj esp. tho LOL
taj esp. tho LOLShadowSpear
Smash Apprentice
Ok, now i really don't like :mewtwo: vs at all...
PS: (:mewtwo: still ownz! ^_^)
at all...PS: (:mewtwo: still ownz! ^_^)
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
Tips on fighting Samus? Y'all seem to enjoy the matchup, but I find it incredibly painful trying to get past her tilts and projectiles.
Pi
Smash Hero
tip: you don't get past our tilts & projectiles
work around them lol
work around them lol
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I hate fighting Mewtwo with any character. **** your tall *** shield. >=[
ShadowSpear
Smash Apprentice
He only plays against some of the best Mewtwo players in the country.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
more or less. very basic, staple combos, moderately reliable tho. dthrow dtilt forward air is m2 1o1.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Mewtwo's and Roys.He only plays against some of the best Mewtwo players in the country.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
lol claiming that roy title already eh?