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SynikaL's Brawl Impressions: "When Hearts Cry" Edition

Ryan-K

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Uh, I do care about getting better at the game.

See, you guys have defined these things so narrowly that anybody who disagrees with you must not be "competitive" or "doesn't want to get better" or is "casual."
No.

The point is, ok here's a scenario.

You and your group of friends, been playing brawl for 6 months, pretty good at the game, got everything down lets say.

Little Jimmy wants to play! But he has never even seen a wii in his life, much less played Brawl.

So he comes over today, and ***** all of you guys relentlessly without ever have even played the game before, despite the skill gap between you and him. The point is, what's the point of improving at a game if anyone can pick it up and master it in 5 minutes?

It's not so much the "easy to pick up part" so much as the "hey any old idiot can pick this game up and be amazing with no investment of time or motivation".

I don't necessarily agree with this somewhat pessimistic viewpoint IMO as I believe there is still some untapped potential in brawl but I think that's what they were trying to get across, and if I was wrong please correct me.

They are saying you are casual because your posts had the whole attitude of "why does it matter what happens to competitive smash I don't care" because of how you responded.
 

TheShredder

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NES n00b forget about Crush, hes hopeless as we can all see.

Anyways, i see alot of people are disagreeing or questioning my thoughts on the game, and i think its funny how im pretty sure not one of them has played the game and if they have, definitly not over an hour or so.

Guys, we could argue about this forever seeming as though you have never played the game. You dont know anything yet, so dont act like you know what you are talking about.

This just goes to show you how many people there are in fear that Brawl wont be a good competitive game.
Again, I'm not trying to be insulting. I don't own the game, so I guess in a sense, that's the be all end all argument. I'm just questioning the statement that bad players will be closer to being dead even with good players. Seems like making too many mistakes, not thinking in the slightest, and simple things like screwing up spacing will still get you killed. I'm not trying to bait you into anything, or look like an idiot (although I have the feeling I already do). You own the game, I don't, I'm asking your opinion on that and questioning as to how/why exactly bad players have a good chance of coming close to keeping up with good players? I understand that options are limited at the moment, I just don't understand how exactly someone playing stupid will beat someone playing well.
 

Sanji

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Nov 19, 2007
Messages
80
Again, I'm not trying to be insulting. I don't own the game, so I guess in a sense, that's the be all end all argument. I'm just questioning the statement that bad players will be closer to being dead even with good players. Seems like making too many mistakes, not thinking in the slightest, and simple things like screwing up spacing will still get you killed. I'm not trying to bait you into anything, or look like an idiot (although I have the feeling I already do). You own the game, I don't, I'm asking your opinion on that and questioning as to how/why exactly bad players have a good chance of coming close to keeping up with good players? I understand that options are limited at the moment, I just don't understand how exactly someone playing stupid will beat someone playing well.
I feel you 100% my man, and let me assure you, i didnt think it was possible for a game to be so easy to play either. But honestly, once you get it you will be surprised when your little sister plays you for the first time with Captain Olimar and beats you by spamming pikmin throw at you. Thats all i can really say if you havent experienced it X_X.

Edit: Sorry for not answering your question entirely, ill give it a whirl...

Its easy for a noob who has the basics down to keep up with a pro, because you move so inredibly slow and the dash dancing system is so messed up, its almost impossible to approach someone catching them off guard. Ive tried so many times. The only character that can catch people off guard but to no use is Sonic. And even then, its obvious what hes doing when hes running at you because he can only grab or dash attack you.
 

Crushed

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Jul 20, 2007
Messages
83
Crushed, your an idiot. Seriously, what do you not understand about the game being noob and why thats a bad thing for competitive players, please tell me.
Well, if "my" is an idiot, then I suppose I should defend myself.

I don't understand how it's bad if the "the game is noob" (uh... yes, the game is a new game!). It honestly sounds to me like you haven't gotten really good at it yet, so everyone is at an even level.


Scenarios like "Little Jimmy ****** veterans" would be impossible under tournament conditions unless there was some extremely good luck involved. There's always room for improvement, so don't just stop just because the first week of matches have been close for you. That doesn't even make it "noob" it just means that you and the other people you played with were about the same level at playing the game.
 

Phyvo

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Jul 17, 2007
Messages
289
Think of how many people have the game right now constantly trying to find new AT's. I also have tried and cant find anything. Honestly, and i really hate to say it, but if Brawl does become competitive, every match will be close cuz of the limits, and dumb.
Just because one person couldn't find new ATs, like yourself, doesn't mean that they don't exist, or that someone else can't find something.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=7glTOvBD8uQ

Now, I know this isn't something so uber awesome that it will replace l-canceling, or WDing. But people ARE finding tricks, new ways to do things. Even in the realm outside of ATs, it's been found that Lucario's d-air can actually be used without regard for landing lag at all, because it propels him upwards slighty until the move ends,, possibly allowing a good shield pressure game. The move itself is good in of itself too.

There is hope for Brawl ATs and the metagame itself.

I have tried so many ways to mind game and its like impossible.
Again, just because YOU can't do AWESOME MINDGAMES after, what, less than a week of the game being out doesn't mean that other people can't or won't be able to in the future. It takes freakin' TIME to figure these things out, and there's no guarantee that we can find everything "on purpose". WDing, unless the person who discovered had some grand inspiration concerning the mechanics of jumping and air dodging, was almost certainly discovered by *accidentally* wavelanding first. People went AGES without knowing what we consider now to be an obvious result of the physics of the game.

To close, we don't know if there are more undiscovered ATs, how many there are, or exactly what form they'll take. We just don't know. Get it? No. Knowledge. Uncertainty.

I wanted to say more to clarify my points, but class time has struck...
 

TheShredder

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I feel you 100% my man, and let me assure you, i didnt think it was possible for a game to be so easy to play either. But honestly, once you get it you will be surprised when your little sister plays you for the first time with Captain Olimar and beats you by spamming pikmin throw at you. Thats all i can really say if you havent experienced it X_X.
Well that's rather disheartening if this really does turn out to be the case. I guess I will have to play a wait and see approach and hope for the best.

Its easy for a noob who has the basics down to keep up with a pro, because you move so inredibly slow and the dash dancing system is so messed up, its almost impossible to approach someone catching them off guard. Ive tried so many times. The only character that can catch people off guard but to no use is Sonic. And even then, its obvious what hes doing when hes running at you because he can only grab or dash attack you.
Ah, well thanks for explaining. Here's to hoping new things get discovered over time to switch this up.
 

NES n00b

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IRemember when Melee first came out, before you started playing with all the smashboards and competitive community, you most likel played with ur friends without knowing any advanced techniques (before you looked them up). This is how Brawl games are right.
I don't get it.


Where's the bad part?
That is what you quoted and said, but of course you left out "and i fear/foresee that this isnt gonna change. " This you did not address and just said where is the bad I dun get it lulz.

So yeah.
 

Yuna

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Yep, that's the one. There's a nice looking combo around the 3:50 mark, but you're correct, there's not a lot of combos going on.
Rundown of the "combo":
* GimpyFish backthrows
* Nes fails to ceiling tech and ground tech
* Nes rolls towards GimpyFish
* GimpyFish forward smashes
* Nes yet again fails to do either tech
* Nes yet again rolls towards GimpyFish
* GimpyFish upsmashes
* Nes yet again fails to do either tech
* Nes once more rolls towards GimpyFish
* GimpyFish downsmahes (I think, I'm no Brawl Bowser expert)

Not a single one of those follow-ups was an actual combo. They were merely punishments for lack of teching and rolling towards the opponent.
 

Ryan-K

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Scenarios like "Little Jimmy ****** veterans" would be impossible under tournament conditions unless there was some extremely good luck involved. There's always room for improvement, so don't just stop just because the first week of matches have been close for you. That doesn't even make it "noob" it just means that you and the other people you played with were about the same level at playing the game.
No no no because the idea behind their argument is that..

A) There is very little room for improvement, to the point where learning anything is useless because of the ease of picking it up.

B) The game is shallow and limiting thus not only is there not much to learn but there is little if any motivation to improve because there is nothing to learn and anyone can beat anyone despite experience or whatever.

Again I think there is potential for brawl to be competitive but I just want to point out their argument, since they are calling you an idiot not for your contradicting views as much as the fact that their argument flew over your head.

Also mindgames have little to do with the game unless there is very little movement in the first place.
 

Crushed

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That is what you quoted and said, but of course you left out "and i fear/foresee that this isnt gonna change. " This you did not address and just said where is the bad I dun get it lulz.

So yeah.
I meant, "Melee with friends was a very good game with lots of depth and skill, why are you acting as if Brawl being like that is bad?"

No no no because the idea behind their argument is that..

A) There is very little room for improvement, to the point where learning anything is useless because of the ease of picking it up.

B) The game is shallow and limiting thus not only is there not much to learn but there is little if any motivation to improve because there is nothing to learn and anyone can beat anyone despite experience or whatever.
I understood that, and it's what I directly addressed in my post. It really sounds to me like they're just calling it that because they're not used to the game yet, and they haven't already mastered it so they think that it's impossible to improve.
 

Sanji

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Superryan thank you for being the only understanding one...

Dont you guys think its odd how everyone who has the game agrees with each other and everyone who doesnt have the game disagrees? Doesnt that go to show you something?
 

TheShredder

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Rundown of the "combo":
* GimpyFish backthrows
* Nes fails to ceiling tech and ground tech
* Nes rolls towards GimpyFish
* GimpyFish forward smashes
* Nes yet again fails to do either tech
* Nes yet again rolls towards GimpyFish
* GimpyFish upsmashes
* Nes yet again fails to do either tech
* Nes once more rolls towards GimpyFish
* GimpyFish downsmahes (I think, I'm no Brawl Bowser expert)

Not a single one of those follow-ups was an actual combo. They were merely punishments for lack of teching and rolling towards the opponent.
Well thanks for the input there, again you are correct, not a lot going on. I hope my optimism isn't misplaced.
 

Ryan-K

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I meant, "Melee with friends was a very good game with lots of depth and skill, why are you acting as if Brawl being like that is bad?"
Because Melee in a casual FFA environment like that lacked lots of depth and skill, that's why it is seen as bad lol.
 

NES n00b

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Superryan thank you for being the only understanding one...

Dont you guys think its odd how everyone who has the game agrees with each other and everyone who doesnt have the game disagrees? Doesnt that go to show you something?
I hate to be a downer, but there is alot of disagreement. Lee Harris is going to write an article about how great this game is going to be with the new tech or whatever he discovered. People have differing opinions how good certain characters are and blah blah. I definitely see alot of (veteran) competitive players post about the lack of depth in the game which is pretty understandable due to alot of things getting axed that added depth. We just have to play it and see if we can get depth from it even if it is not as much as Melee.

Edit: Crushed, you should have said that explanation earlier, but you still probably aren't that much of a veteran competitive player are you? =\ Plus, the implication of just starting out in Melee play has little depth and so there is alot of problems there.
 

Yuna

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Again, just because YOU can't do AWESOME MINDGAMES after, what, less than a week of the game being out doesn't mean that other people can't or won't be able to in the future. It takes freakin' TIME to figure these things out, and there's no guarantee that we can find everything "on purpose". WDing, unless the person who discovered had some grand inspiration concerning the mechanics of jumping and air dodging, was almost certainly discovered by *accidentally* wavelanding first. People went AGES without knowing what we consider now to be an obvious result of the physics of the game.
You know what a fighting game with virtually zero technical game and mostly just mindgames are called? ****. You wanna know of such games?

Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 and Dead or Alive. Naruto: GNT is just a tiny scene, so people don't even care about it. Dead or Alive is famous and treated like the ugly step-sister version of Cinderella. The fighting community at large ridicules it. At least with Melee, they acknowledge that our game has depth, they just thinks its weird. DoA, however, is just ****.

A game where the game mechanics themselves limit the mindgaming potential can never be truly good. Especially not when a very similar game, possibly from the very same franchise, with superior potential already exists. Why didn't people play Tekken 4? Because it was **** so people stuck with Tekken 3 and Tekken Tag.

The game itself limits the mindgame potential because of the easy to get out of combos, the near impossibility to combo, the ease to recover, the extremely hard time one now has edgeguarding, the limited technical aspects, virtually any lack of a lag-cancelling technique, making pretty much anything punishable.

I mean, a fighting game where pretty much any approach of any kind, i.e. a move, on shield is punishable by a grab/another move, possibly setting up for at least one more hit? Yeah, the fighting community scoffs at that as well. We'll be reduced to poking. Running back and forth and poking with jabs hoping they'll hit, too afraid of doing anything.

It's like Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX where pretty much everything is unsafe and results in you eating a combo, though you can easily get out of it because you get enough chakra (let's compare it to, um, damage + DI) to Kawarimi (let's call it "Airdodge behind someone with a downwards sweep") to get out of a combo after pretty much 3 hits.

Not to mention the fact that gravitation was increased so that the opponent would pretty much drop to the ground not very far into a combo, making it impossible to do long combos (the same as increasing floatiness in Brawl to make it virtually impossible to combo people).

The game was reduced to, at high level play, jabbing in the hopes of creating openings. No shield pressure (despite shield breaking existing, much like Brawl, only now the shield goes down much slower) of any kind as any such thing would just result in a BB (counter-jabs) into a combo. One would randomly throw out a grab in the hopes of it hitting, risking retaliation if it whiffed.

Other than that, it was mostly a game of camping and limited fakeouts because of the limited gaming engine. Matches took forever, were very limited, stale and boring. Sounds familiar?

Ironically, the predecesser to Naruto: GNT EX was for the Gamecube and GNT EX was its sequel, the first one on the Wii. It seems cute little 3D gaming franchises based on famous characters go to Hell whenever they transistion from the GC to the Wii.
 

Witchking_of_Angmar

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Slowly starting to enjoy my mothertongue again. :)
You know what a fighting game with virtually zero technical game and mostly just mindgames are called? ****. You wanna know of such games?

Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 and Dead or Alive. Naruto: GNT is just a tiny scene, so people don't even care about it. Dead or Alive is famous and treated like the ugly step-sister version of Cinderella. The fighting community at large ridicules it. At least with Melee, they acknowledge that our game has depth, they just thinks its weird. DoA, however, is just ****.

A game where the game mechanics themselves limit the mindgaming potential can never be truly good. Especially not when a very similar game, possibly from the very same franchise, with superior potential already exists. Why didn't people play Tekken 4? Because it was **** so people stuck with Tekken 3 and Tekken Tag.

The game itself limits the mindgame potential because of the easy to get out of combos, the near impossibility to combo, the ease to recover, the extremely hard time one now has edgeguarding, the limited technical aspects, virtually any lack of a lag-cancelling technique, making pretty much anything punishable.

I mean, a fighting game where pretty much any approach of any kind, i.e. a move, on shield is punishable by a grab/another move, possibly setting up for at least one more hit? Yeah, the fighting community scoffs at that as well. We'll be reduced to poking. Running back and forth and poking with jabs hoping they'll hit, too afraid of doing anything.

It's like Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX where pretty much everything is unsafe and results in you eating a combo, though you can easily get out of it because you get enough chakra (let's compare it to, um, damage + DI) to Kawarimi (let's call it "Airdodge behind someone with a downwards sweep") to get out of a combo after pretty much 3 hits.

Not to mention the fact that gravitation was increased so that the opponent would pretty much drop to the ground not very far into a combo, making it impossible to do long combos (the same as increasing floatiness in Brawl to make it virtually impossible to combo people).

The game was reduced to, at high level play, jabbing in the hopes of creating openings. No shield pressure (despite shield breaking existing, much like Brawl, only now the shield goes down much slower) of any kind as any such thing would just result in a BB (counter-jabs) into a combo. One would randomly throw out a grab in the hopes of it hitting, risking retaliation if it whiffed.

Other than that, it was mostly a game of camping and limited fakeouts because of the limited gaming engine. Matches took forever, were very limited, stale and boring. Sounds familiar?

Ironically, the predecesser to Naruto: GNT EX was for the Gamecube and GNT EX was its sequel, the first one on the Wii. It seems cute little 3D gaming franchises based on famous characters go to Hell whenever they transistion from the GC to the Wii.
Tough words, Yuna. But a lot of it depends on whether Brawl will have some level of technicality at all. And seeing as it took a while to discover the difficult melee techniques, I think there's a good chance that brawl will be technical enough to be competitive as well.
 

Jumpfreak

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Most of the more 'seasoned' players do seem to be in a unanimous agreement that Brawl lacks depth...

Actually, the only 'pro' that I know of atm who is very enthusiastic for competitive brawl is Gimpy :chuckle:

I'll admit that I value the opinion of melee veterans exponentially more than newcomers for several reasons.

I really appreciate how Synikal is attempting to keep his posts devoid of emotion. There are far too many trollers and idiots who hate the game because its not melee and who love the game because of fanboyism... >_>

I take all criticism in stride - and I appreciate it. I simply cannot form a definite opinion until I play it (duh) but I look forward to more 'logical' posts like Synikals here.
 

Yuna

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Tough words, Yuna. But a lot of it depends on whether Brawl will have some level of technicality at all. And seeing as it took a while to discover the difficult melee techniques, I think there's a good chance that brawl will be technical enough to be competitive as well.
"The Game is changed, I feel it in the backairs, I feel it in the nairs, I smell it in that Snake... much that once was is lost and a lot now live who whine about it." - what the Lord of the Rings prologue would've sounded like had it been about Brawl.

You see, the competitive smash scene is not what it was 8+ years ago. You know what the Smash scene was like when Melee first came out? Tiny. Tiny and insignificant. Not to mention n00bish. After all, while SSB64 was deep, it was also limited. There were only so many things (techniques, strategies, options) one could do and utilize.

Let's see... few players, little background on technical discovery, new game. Yes, of course it took some time to discover techs.

Fast forward to 2008 and we have tons of people who are well-versed on the technical sides of Smash all practically breaking their fingers trying to rediscover and discover old and new advanced techniques. The numbers have grown considerably, the skill has been raised considerably and the competitive and technical mindset is a several times higher than 8 years ago.

It's like comparing how long it took for people to discover the new advanced techs that were introduced in Super Street Fighter II compared to Street Fighter II to how long it took for people to discover them inbetween Street Figher Zero/Alpha and Street Fighter III.

Chances are, yes, there will be new techniques and strategies developed. But chances are also that there probably won't be enough either in numbers or strength for them to be so ground-breaking they make Brawl come even close to the depth of Smash because of the already existing limitations that the basic game engine puts on you.
 

Sanji

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 19, 2007
Messages
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I dont think people understand why competitive players wanted brawl to resemble melee somewhat, or as some people put it "melee 2.0". Its because melee had so much depth and balance (for the most part) i mean really with L cancelling and dash dancing the possibilities were endless.
 

Xengri

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Well I’ve already stated my opinion on this on page 5 and 6 of this thread, so I won’t restate everything.

Basically:
I still believe it’s way to early to permanently decide anything about Brawl.
But, I’m not going to try to prove anyone else’s thoughts on Brawl wrong or try to change them since I haven’t played the game myself.

Still, It’s just to early. Even if Brawl does turn out to be depressingly shallow, it’s only been a little over a week. Labeling it at this time would be premature and potentially highly inaccurate.

And yes, we do have much more numbers working on Brawl’s capabilities compared to when Melee first came out. However, It’s still only been a week, At lest give Brawl a month after the US release.

Melee developed over years (metagame wise), Brawl has more people working to develop it, but not so much more that the time is reduced to a single week.
Give it until April…
 

TZarek

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Feb 5, 2008
Messages
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There’s a lot of rage flying in both directions about whether or not Brawl is as competitive as Melee, whether or not it’ll have as robust a tourney scene, whether it’ll last, etc. For what it’s worth, I think there’s pretty valid positions all around: the gameplay has been radically altered, it does make sense to wait, and yes, it’s not just ‘Melee 2.0’. However, having played the game a lot over the last week, there’s a conclusion I’ve come to that I haven’t heard really reached before. I believe Brawl is a very deep, enjoyable, and highly competitive game and will have a passionate competitive following. I also believe it is almost incomparably different from Melee, and this following will be made up of very different people.

My conclusion hinges on two premises:

1. ‘Competitive’ can mean many very different things. I’m going to use this analogy a lot, but chess and poker are very different games, but both are very competitive. One is a game of pure skill involving heavy computation and planning; the other is a gaming of manipulation and mitigation of luck. However, both chess and poker are very solid competitive games with robust competitive scenes, and saying one is better than other is silly. You can have a preference, of course, and prefer chess, but that doesn’t mean that the world of poker is not highly competitive. An element of luck does not inherently make something non-competitive; in almost all professional sports, there are hundreds of elements of luck, yet these are arguably the very model of competition.

2. Brawl, much moreso than Melee was meant to be played with items, especially Final Smashes, on, and was built from the ground-up with items in mind. I know this conclusion has already been reached by many different people, but it really is true. Many of the factors so bemoaned in early impressions are precise adaptations for items and FS heavy play: higher percentages, weakened attacks, harder kills, easier recoveries. The increased power of several items and especially the significance of FSes has led to a game that, without items, plays much slower and clunkier.

So, what are my overall impressions? 1v1 no items, Brawl is an inferior game. It’s really really hard to see it any other way. However, with items on, Brawl is an incredibly fun and competitive game; it is just COMPETITIVE IN A DIFFERENT WAY. It has moved from chess to poker, if you will, and is a game where the skill arises in rapidly, skillfully, and expertly dealing with random variables. Many of the changes, especially the slower and heavier setup, serve to reduce the power and effect of individual items, allowing for greater skill and variety in dealing with them. With items, the game is much more fast-paced, intense and dynamic; with final smashes, there are dozens of new skills and techniques to learn.

When we played Brawl the way we played Melee, we had many of the same frustrations people are having, but once we turned items on, we realized how insanely different (and enjoyable!) a game it was. For those who want absolutely no luck, Brawl is not, and will never be, a great game; it’s tough, but that’s the way it is. But to the many many competitive players who enjoyed it, who prefer poker to chess, who see the ability to mitigate luck as equally impressive as the ability to pull off a great combo, Brawl is a godsend, an intense, deep and competitive game for an entirely different audience. So when people say “Brawl is not Melee”, it doesn’t just mean “Instead of technique A, use technique B”; it means throw out everything you know about how Smash should be played, and consider something new. I have no doubt Brawl will be played in tourneys years from now; in fact, I think the tourney scene will be much bigger and broader than the one for Melee, because the element of luck and chance will entice many more people than the ATs did (and let’s not forget how much more popular poker is than chess). I also think many of the people who dominated the Melee competitive scene will be left by the wayside. Whatever. I loved Melee, even at the competitive level, and I’m having a blast with Brawl, items on low, learning an entirely new game. If you can’t accept that, it’s cool, you’ll always have Melee to play.
 

WastingPenguins

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the game mechanics themselves limit the mindgaming potential
This.

People who clamor for the importance of "mindgames" over tech skill fail to realize that the two are indistinguishable. The basis of mindgames rests on your opponents knowledge of your many options. If you can trick them into reacting in a certain way (because they expected one thing) and you actually do something else, you succeed. If the game is technically simple you simply do not have options, and it becomes incredibly easy for your opponent to predict what you're going to do.

Take those videos of Gimpy for instance. There were MANY times when he was in the air approaching his opponents where he simply falls to the ground and rolls away. Why? Because Bowser's aerials are just too **** laggy to be used in most instances. He's scared to even try. His aerial approach options are so ineffective that his opponent can reasonably assume he won't even try them. You call that mindgames? And if he DOES try, they're easily shielded and incredibly punishable. Makes me cry for the old Gimpy. I DO want to wait and see what happens, and of course I will, but I can't even IMAGINE anything that could be discovered to fix this problem.

Bottom line: I'm not condemning Brawl because I haven't played it. I'm still hopeful I promise! But seriously guys, it doesn't take a rocket scientist: Less options in terms of movement and attack means mindgames are exponentially LESS important, not more!
 

Goldkirby

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I remember another "competitive" game that was simplified and made easier to play and it sucked balls. It's called DoA4. Hopefully Brawl doesn't turn out like that, since it does have some really cool characters *cough* sonic *cough*

@kimosabae - I definitely see your concerns with this game, and honestly I'm worried about some of the same things too, but hopefully in a year or two, we will figure out how to exploit the game engine.
 

Emblem Lord

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NNID
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I think brawl can be competitive without items. Just not with the old smash style.

I have my own theries on how this game should be played. More emphasis on the ground game. Less short hops. More about spacing and space control. More walking and less attempts at that ridiculously looking "new" dash dancing that isn't even effective at all.

Basically, I think Brawl will end up being played more like a fusion of street fighter and melee.
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Messages
1,973
Location
Boynton Beach, FL
There’s a lot of rage flying in both directions about whether or not Brawl is as competitive as Melee, whether or not it’ll have as robust a tourney scene, whether it’ll last, etc. For what it’s worth, I think there’s pretty valid positions all around: the gameplay has been radically altered, it does make sense to wait, and yes, it’s not just ‘Melee 2.0’. However, having played the game a lot over the last week, there’s a conclusion I’ve come to that I haven’t heard really reached before. I believe Brawl is a very deep, enjoyable, and highly competitive game and will have a passionate competitive following. I also believe it is almost incomparably different from Melee, and this following will be made up of very different people.

My conclusion hinges on two premises:

1. ‘Competitive’ can mean many very different things. I’m going to use this analogy a lot, but chess and poker are very different games, but both are very competitive. One is a game of pure skill involving heavy computation and planning; the other is a gaming of manipulation and mitigation of luck. However, both chess and poker are very solid competitive games with robust competitive scenes, and saying one is better than other is silly. You can have a preference, of course, and prefer chess, but that doesn’t mean that the world of poker is not highly competitive. An element of luck does not inherently make something non-competitive; in almost all professional sports, there are hundreds of elements of luck, yet these are arguably the very model of competition.

2. Brawl, much moreso than Melee was meant to be played with items, especially Final Smashes, on, and was built from the ground-up with items in mind. I know this conclusion has already been reached by many different people, but it really is true. Many of the factors so bemoaned in early impressions are precise adaptations for items and FS heavy play: higher percentages, weakened attacks, harder kills, easier recoveries. The increased power of several items and especially the significance of FSes has led to a game that, without items, plays much slower and clunkier.

So, what are my overall impressions? 1v1 no items, Brawl is an inferior game. It’s really really hard to see it any other way. However, with items on, Brawl is an incredibly fun and competitive game; it is just COMPETITIVE IN A DIFFERENT WAY. It has moved from chess to poker, if you will, and is a game where the skill arises in rapidly, skillfully, and expertly dealing with random variables. Many of the changes, especially the slower and heavier setup, serve to reduce the power and effect of individual items, allowing for greater skill and variety in dealing with them. With items, the game is much more fast-paced, intense and dynamic; with final smashes, there are dozens of new skills and techniques to learn.

When we played Brawl the way we played Melee, we had many of the same frustrations people are having, but once we turned items on, we realized how insanely different (and enjoyable!) a game it was. For those who want absolutely no luck, Brawl is not, and will never be, a great game; it’s tough, but that’s the way it is. But to the many many competitive players who enjoyed it, who prefer poker to chess, who see the ability to mitigate luck as equally impressive as the ability to pull off a great combo, Brawl is a godsend, an intense, deep and competitive game for an entirely different audience. So when people say “Brawl is not Melee”, it doesn’t just mean “Instead of technique A, use technique B”; it means throw out everything you know about how Smash should be played, and consider something new. I have no doubt Brawl will be played in tourneys years from now; in fact, I think the tourney scene will be much bigger and broader than the one for Melee, because the element of luck and chance will entice many more people than the ATs did (and let’s not forget how much more popular poker is than chess). I also think many of the people who dominated the Melee competitive scene will be left by the wayside. Whatever. I loved Melee, even at the competitive level, and I’m having a blast with Brawl, items on low, learning an entirely new game. If you can’t accept that, it’s cool, you’ll always have Melee to play.
GREAT post. There's a lot for me to consider here. Opened my perspective a little bit. I did state originally that the game needs to be played with items.


-Kimosabae
 

FenrirIII

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
51
There’s a lot of rage flying in both directions about whether or not Brawl is as competitive as Melee, whether or not it’ll have as robust a tourney scene, whether it’ll last, etc. For what it’s worth, I think there’s pretty valid positions all around: the gameplay has been radically altered, it does make sense to wait, and yes, it’s not just ‘Melee 2.0’. However, having played the game a lot over the last week, there’s a conclusion I’ve come to that I haven’t heard really reached before. I believe Brawl is a very deep, enjoyable, and highly competitive game and will have a passionate competitive following. I also believe it is almost incomparably different from Melee, and this following will be made up of very different people.

My conclusion hinges on two premises:

1. ‘Competitive’ can mean many very different things. I’m going to use this analogy a lot, but chess and poker are very different games, but both are very competitive. One is a game of pure skill involving heavy computation and planning; the other is a gaming of manipulation and mitigation of luck. However, both chess and poker are very solid competitive games with robust competitive scenes, and saying one is better than other is silly. You can have a preference, of course, and prefer chess, but that doesn’t mean that the world of poker is not highly competitive. An element of luck does not inherently make something non-competitive; in almost all professional sports, there are hundreds of elements of luck, yet these are arguably the very model of competition.

2. Brawl, much moreso than Melee was meant to be played with items, especially Final Smashes, on, and was built from the ground-up with items in mind. I know this conclusion has already been reached by many different people, but it really is true. Many of the factors so bemoaned in early impressions are precise adaptations for items and FS heavy play: higher percentages, weakened attacks, harder kills, easier recoveries. The increased power of several items and especially the significance of FSes has led to a game that, without items, plays much slower and clunkier.

So, what are my overall impressions? 1v1 no items, Brawl is an inferior game. It’s really really hard to see it any other way. However, with items on, Brawl is an incredibly fun and competitive game; it is just COMPETITIVE IN A DIFFERENT WAY. It has moved from chess to poker, if you will, and is a game where the skill arises in rapidly, skillfully, and expertly dealing with random variables. Many of the changes, especially the slower and heavier setup, serve to reduce the power and effect of individual items, allowing for greater skill and variety in dealing with them. With items, the game is much more fast-paced, intense and dynamic; with final smashes, there are dozens of new skills and techniques to learn.

When we played Brawl the way we played Melee, we had many of the same frustrations people are having, but once we turned items on, we realized how insanely different (and enjoyable!) a game it was. For those who want absolutely no luck, Brawl is not, and will never be, a great game; it’s tough, but that’s the way it is. But to the many many competitive players who enjoyed it, who prefer poker to chess, who see the ability to mitigate luck as equally impressive as the ability to pull off a great combo, Brawl is a godsend, an intense, deep and competitive game for an entirely different audience. So when people say “Brawl is not Melee”, it doesn’t just mean “Instead of technique A, use technique B”; it means throw out everything you know about how Smash should be played, and consider something new. I have no doubt Brawl will be played in tourneys years from now; in fact, I think the tourney scene will be much bigger and broader than the one for Melee, because the element of luck and chance will entice many more people than the ATs did (and let’s not forget how much more popular poker is than chess). I also think many of the people who dominated the Melee competitive scene will be left by the wayside. Whatever. I loved Melee, even at the competitive level, and I’m having a blast with Brawl, items on low, learning an entirely new game. If you can’t accept that, it’s cool, you’ll always have Melee to play.
See, this is the reason I think everyone is overreacting to Brawl being the way it is. Brawl is clearly meant to use items, what with the advent of things like the Smash Ball and the fact that KO moves only do so at higher percents. I think before everyone jumps to conclusions of whether this game is good or not good, we should try all the possible options to see what makes the game more intense and competitive. I don't know why Smash Balls are being called "noob items" or whatever, since to me they seem to add a sense of urgency to the battle, make you react to something that isn't your opponent. That sounds like depth to me.
This game is not Melee. That has been said multiple times from both sides of the argument. What the "Brawl isn't Competitive" side doesn't not see is that this game isn't Melee, so don't play it like it is. That means, don't play "No Items, Final Destination" matchups or so the meme goes. Try experimenting with other things besides advanced techniques and combos. Seriously, the game has been out less than two weeks, and hasn't even been officially released in America and everyone is already dismissing it as "not competitive". Find ways to add some flair to it then. I'm not talking about advanced techniques, I'm talking about using the actual mechanics in the game. Try playing on the more 'zany' levels, try using items, try using Smash Balls. Find out what makes the game interesting and competitive. Let's see some matches where the players fight over the Smash Ball. Let's see how players react to having an Assist Trophy flying around and keeping them on their toes. The game seems stale right now because you're playing it in the Melee style. Try playing it in the Brawl style and see how it works.
 

Fonz

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
926
Location
Gaithersburg, Md
I agree that was a great post. I watched a brawl match with marth vs fox on FD items off and it was pretty dull. I wondered how half the cast would even approach marth in these situations without wavedashing out of shield. With items on however and not playing every match on FD there are tons of options for every character. I hope the competitive community I have many friends in can embrace the change and enjoy items like I do, cause brawl might not be the same game without them.
 

WastingPenguins

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
827
Location
Ohio
Awesome, now this thread can turn into an items flame war. This has been debated endlessly in dozens and dozens of threads. Go dig one of those up if you want to know what people think about it-- nothing good will come from the discussion. If you want to play that way, do it and have fun! Congrats!
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
1. ‘Competitive’ can mean many very different things. I’m going to use this analogy a lot, but chess and poker are very different games, but both are very competitive. One is a game of pure skill involving heavy computation and planning; the other is a gaming of manipulation and mitigation of luck. However, both chess and poker are very solid competitive games with robust competitive scenes, and saying one is better than other is silly. You can have a preference, of course, and prefer chess, but that doesn’t mean that the world of poker is not highly competitive. An element of luck does not inherently make something non-competitive; in almost all professional sports, there are hundreds of elements of luck, yet these are arguably the very model of competition.
Chess and Poker are completely different things, though. Melee and Brawl are both fighting games where the emphasis is on mindgames over tech skill (though ATs will invariably increase your mindgaming options by a lot).

We're talking in terms of a "Competitive Fighting Game", not a "Competitive Anything". Would you compare Shakespeare to Kathy Griffin? They are, after all, both bards of entertainment. Or, say, The Lord of the Rings to Sudoku. They both involve, um, writing. Videogames to eating melons because both require you to use your hands in some way.

2. Brawl, much moreso than Melee was meant to be played with items, especially Final Smashes, on, and was built from the ground-up with items in mind. I know this conclusion has already been reached by many different people, but it really is true. Many of the factors so bemoaned in early impressions are precise adaptations for items and FS heavy play: higher percentages, weakened attacks, harder kills, easier recoveries. The increased power of several items and especially the significance of FSes has led to a game that, without items, plays much slower and clunkier.
If the game was so meant to be played with items on, especially Final Smashes, how come so many of them suck testicles? Peach's is easily avoidable by simply jumping into the air. Yes, they'll get 39% of damage, but since when does that compare to, say, Marth's little one-hit-KO or Link's one-hit-KO both which I've seen comboed into? And they KO:ed at, like, 69% (after they hit).

Ice Climber's mountain stays on a long time and covers virtually the entire stage. Even the edge become deadly. Characters without multiple jumps are doomed to eat at least a few hits. Kirby's seems undodgable, Luigi's hits anyone within range (and that range is huge), damages them, slows them down and puts them to sleep. Zelda's is a kinda slowish, cannot be comboed into and can be spotdodged (at least it's strong). Meanwhile, Zero Suit Samus' not only forces her to transform into Samus, it's pretty much useless (she spins around and whips you around a little)... yeah... balance much?

A lot of items are also overpowered and will one-hit KO you. Items are also inherently unbalanced because of the luck factor. I doubt Sakurai sat down and said "You know what, Smash should be played with items on. Let's limit the game play so that competitive play must involve items". It's like Sammy (the makers of Guilty Gear XX) deciding to put random one-hit-KO jabs in. One in every 100 neutral slashes will KO.

There's not only luck based on what items pop up (because then at least all parties have the same chance at the item), there's also luck based on where it appears. I could be downsmashing someone, with them flying off, when a Bob-omb spawns above me and kills me. Sheer Dumb Luck just turned the tide of the game! Or worse, just KO:ed me before my opponent was about to lose their last life, ending the match.

I could be half-way across the stage camping as Fox or having just smashed you half a stage away when a heart container or some other overpowered item spawns for you to use. Why did it not spawn next to me instead? Because it's random!

Heck, I have yet to hear about exploding capsules being turn-offable. At least with items, you can limit what items appear, eliminating the Overpowered variable. Doesn't mean squat if Marth's nairing someone, they fly off and next thing you know, an exploding capsule spawns above Marth, eats the nair, explodes, and kills him.

So, what are my overall impressions? 1v1 no items, Brawl is an inferior game. It’s really really hard to see it any other way. However, with items on, Brawl is an incredibly fun and competitive game; it is just COMPETITIVE IN A DIFFERENT WAY. It has moved from chess to poker, if you will, and is a game where the skill arises in rapidly, skillfully, and expertly dealing with random variables. Many of the changes, especially the slower and heavier setup, serve to reduce the power and effect of individual items, allowing for greater skill and variety in dealing with them. With items, the game is much more fast-paced, intense and dynamic; with final smashes, there are dozens of new skills and techniques to learn.
Fighting games are not poker. In fighting games, you want to remove the element of luck as much as you can.

You know what Poker has that Brawl doesn't? Bluffing. Bluffing adds an entire new dimension of depth to Poker that wouldn't have existed had bluffing not existed. You can mindgame your opponent into thinking you've got the best hand and force them to forfeit the hand despite sitting on nothing. You can slow-bet and lure them in, pretending to have nothing from the start when you, in fact, flopped quads.

In Brawl, you don't have that. What you see is what you get + Luck element (if items are put on). And when there's a lot of money involved, we don't want luck f*ing things up. An errant exploding capsule of Bob-omb KO:ing Ken when he was just about to win 100,000 dollars because he was preparing to f-smash PC Chris to death from recovering with a charged tipper when a Bob-Omb spawns above him (last stock, last game, last set)?

At least in Poker, if you think/know you're beat, you can forfeit the game and still continue playing, retaining what little chips you have left to slowly work your way up. There's no coming back from luck screwing you over in Brawl.

This is a fighting game. Please compare it only to fighting game or at least things that share the same "principles" and "ideals" as fighting games.

Edit: It's OK to play with items. Do it to your hearts content. But if Brawl is so limited you actually have to play it with items on (while your advanced techs are limited in numbers and usefulness), then it's even more limited, lacking of depth, relies more on luck than skill and boring than I originally thought.

I for one do not believe Sakurai intentionally wanted to force us into using items.
 

Sculelos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
496
Location
Wyoming, USA
There’s a lot of rage flying in both directions about whether or not Brawl is as competitive as Melee, whether or not it’ll have as robust a tourney scene, whether it’ll last, etc. For what it’s worth, I think there’s pretty valid positions all around: the gameplay has been radically altered, it does make sense to wait, and yes, it’s not just ‘Melee 2.0’. However, having played the game a lot over the last week, there’s a conclusion I’ve come to that I haven’t heard really reached before. I believe Brawl is a very deep, enjoyable, and highly competitive game and will have a passionate competitive following. I also believe it is almost incomparably different from Melee, and this following will be made up of very different people.

My conclusion hinges on two premises:

1. ‘Competitive’ can mean many very different things. I’m going to use this analogy a lot, but chess and poker are very different games, but both are very competitive. One is a game of pure skill involving heavy computation and planning; the other is a gaming of manipulation and mitigation of luck. However, both chess and poker are very solid competitive games with robust competitive scenes, and saying one is better than other is silly. You can have a preference, of course, and prefer chess, but that doesn’t mean that the world of poker is not highly competitive. An element of luck does not inherently make something non-competitive; in almost all professional sports, there are hundreds of elements of luck, yet these are arguably the very model of competition.

2. Brawl, much moreso than Melee was meant to be played with items, especially Final Smashes, on, and was built from the ground-up with items in mind. I know this conclusion has already been reached by many different people, but it really is true. Many of the factors so bemoaned in early impressions are precise adaptations for items and FS heavy play: higher percentages, weakened attacks, harder kills, easier recoveries. The increased power of several items and especially the significance of FSes has led to a game that, without items, plays much slower and clunkier.

So, what are my overall impressions? 1v1 no items, Brawl is an inferior game. It’s really really hard to see it any other way. However, with items on, Brawl is an incredibly fun and competitive game; it is just COMPETITIVE IN A DIFFERENT WAY. It has moved from chess to poker, if you will, and is a game where the skill arises in rapidly, skillfully, and expertly dealing with random variables. Many of the changes, especially the slower and heavier setup, serve to reduce the power and effect of individual items, allowing for greater skill and variety in dealing with them. With items, the game is much more fast-paced, intense and dynamic; with final smashes, there are dozens of new skills and techniques to learn.

When we played Brawl the way we played Melee, we had many of the same frustrations people are having, but once we turned items on, we realized how insanely different (and enjoyable!) a game it was. For those who want absolutely no luck, Brawl is not, and will never be, a great game; it’s tough, but that’s the way it is. But to the many many competitive players who enjoyed it, who prefer poker to chess, who see the ability to mitigate luck as equally impressive as the ability to pull off a great combo, Brawl is a godsend, an intense, deep and competitive game for an entirely different audience. So when people say “Brawl is not Melee”, it doesn’t just mean “Instead of technique A, use technique B”; it means throw out everything you know about how Smash should be played, and consider something new. I have no doubt Brawl will be played in tourneys years from now; in fact, I think the tourney scene will be much bigger and broader than the one for Melee, because the element of luck and chance will entice many more people than the ATs did (and let’s not forget how much more popular poker is than chess). I also think many of the people who dominated the Melee competitive scene will be left by the wayside. Whatever. I loved Melee, even at the competitive level, and I’m having a blast with Brawl, items on low, learning an entirely new game. If you can’t accept that, it’s cool, you’ll always have Melee to play.
Thats awesome... I like playing with everything on and all the new wacky stuff happening, I just hope my strategy of switching back and forth between N64 Smash and Melee will help me get used to Brawl faster as even now switching back and forth between the first two smashes mess me up some and I've been playing both for a long time.
 

WastingPenguins

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
827
Location
Ohio
but yuna if you're really pro shouldn't you be able to play with any items and adapt to the situation that is the true test of skill olol i think you're just scared you'll get beat by expert items users

*sigh*
 

TZarek

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
8
Chess and Poker are completely different things, though. Melee and Brawl are both fighting games where the emphasis is on mindgames over tech skill (though ATs will invariably increase your mindgaming options by a lot).

We're talking in terms of a "Competitive Fighting Game", not a "Competitive Anything".
This doesn't really defuse my point. So, they're two competitive fighting games that rely on very different skillsets, appeal to different players, and reward wholly different philosophies.

Items, luck, etc
I never said it was balanced, I never said it was ideal, hell, I never even said I necessarily prefer it. This is NOT an "Items On Is Better" post, so please stop treating it like one, ok? I know there's a lot of annoying people who argue like that, but I'm not one of them. I love no items 1v1 in Melee.

That doesn't change certain facts. As has been acknowledged by a sizable percentage of the pro-Smash scene who cut their teeth on Melee, 1v1 no items Brawl is just not very fun or competitive. You can hope and pray for hidden techniques to emerge, but I think it's generally unlikely. I'm hardly alone in thinking that. Moreover, many of the flaws in 1v1NoITems play do not appear when you turn items on; people are KO-ed much faster, the game moves much faster, and it feels much more dynamic and exciting. I'm not saying you have to like it, I'm not saying it's superior, or anything like that. I'm just giving my impressions. I played Brawl for a long time in the Melee mold and it felt like a lackluster gimped version. Then we turned items on, and it did NOT feel like Melee with items; it felt like a third wholly different game we had not considered.

Maybe Brawl is doomed. Maybe it sucks. Maybe the pro-scene is so dismissive of luck that it'll never catch on. Whatever. The point stands that saying "Brawl sucks when we played it 1v1 not items" is not the same thing as "Brawl is a crappy non-competitive game." My competitive friends and I had a lot of fun playing with items on Low, developing new strategies, trying to work around FSes (and yes, they're imbalanced, but it's not like Melee was the perfect model of balance either)...it was a hell of a lot more fun than playing without them, certainly, and more competitive. Was it better than Melee 1v1 no items? Not yet, no, but that doesn't mean it couldn't get there.

but yuna if you're really pro shouldn't you be able to play with any items and adapt to the situation that is the true test of skill olol i think you're just scared you'll get beat by expert items users

*sigh*
Get over yourself, dude. This is NOT the classic and horribly tired "ITEMS ON" argument. That is not what I'm saying. I think Melee is at its competitive best without items, absolutely. That doesn't mean the same goes for Brawl, and I think the negative and dismissive reactions of the pro scene confirms it.
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Messages
1,973
Location
Boynton Beach, FL
And yuna drags it down once again.

Man, just wait for the game. Calm down.
Despite the irate nature of his post he brought up a valid point -- there's no way for me to hide a Curry in a Fan skin.

There's also the idea that a fighting game with a watered down system to make room for the prominence of items usage simply isn't much of a fighting game.

Many would call that a party game.


-Kye
 

TZarek

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
8
Despite the irate nature of his post he brought up a valid point -- there's no way for me to hide a Curry in a Fan skin.

There's also the idea that a fighting game with a watered down system to make room for the prominence of items usage simply isn't much of a fighting game.

Many would call that a party game.


-Kye
There's plenty of stuck-up 2d fighter fans who consider the first 2 Smashes to be party games. Does that mean they are?
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
but yuna if you're really pro shouldn't you be able to play with any items and adapt to the situation that is the true test of skill olol i think you're just scared you'll get beat by expert items users

*sigh*
The problem isn't that a Pro might, in some obscure and really unlucky game, be beaten by a Non-Pro (possibly even a N00b). The problem is when two Pros face off.

In the finals... with a lot of money on the line. 1st place is worth more than twice as much money than 2nd. It's the crucial last match. What happens? One single lucky item turned the entire game around. It's not even player skill, it's not something the losing player could help or overcome on pure skill. That single lucky item just popped up and a close game was tipped severely in favour of one player.

Because of an entire randomly and luck-based occurence.

It's the equivalent to, in Chess, having a random occurence sometime happen when a Nuke drops onto a random board space and anything on it is killed.
 

FenrirIII

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
51
1) You can supposedly turn off exploding capsules in Brawl. That's a huge bonus. And you can turn off 'explody' items like Bob-Ombs. So we can eliminate the chance that a big boom just drops right on your head mid-swing.

2) Let's start slow then as far as items are concerned. First step is to stop being so closed-minded with the stage selection. Final Destination, Battlefield, etc. are great and all, but try playing the more 'zany' stages. PictoChat looks like a great level for competitive play because it randomly changes the terrain which can change the way the entire fight is going for just a few seconds. I'm not suggesting we start throwing the new DK level in - Icicle Mountain was bad enough - but try some of the more active levels to see how they affect the match. And keep in mind, luck isn't the only thing here, skill is involved in knocking your opponent into hazards as they appear to get KOs that your character just does not have.

3) Once we can start including the more varied stages in, bring in Smash Balls (no other items yet). See how much they affect the match. We know that most Final Smashes, when done well, are KOs even from 0%. True, they are powerful, but keep in mind that they, just like any other move, can be avoided and can miss and screw over the player with afterlag. If Marth uses his Final in the air and misses, he'll go flying off the level and probably die - that right there encourages the player not to just use it whenever. Use it when he knows he can hit without the enemy dodging, like after a short combo, or as a roll chaser. The fight over the Smash Ball alone can lead to some very interesting fights, and it's always possible for a player to lose the ball after getting it if their opponent is skilled enough.
 

Phyvo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
289
You know what a fighting game with virtually zero technical game and mostly just mindgames are called? ****. You wanna know of such games?

Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 and Dead or Alive. Naruto: GNT is just a tiny scene, so people don't even care about it. Dead or Alive is famous and treated like the ugly step-sister version of Cinderella. The fighting community at large ridicules it. At least with Melee, they acknowledge that our game has depth, they just thinks its weird. DoA, however, is just ****.

A game where the game mechanics themselves limit the mindgaming potential can never be truly good. Especially not when a very similar game, possibly from the very same franchise, with superior potential already exists. Why didn't people play Tekken 4? Because it was **** so people stuck with Tekken 3 and Tekken Tag.

The game itself limits the mindgame potential because of the easy to get out of combos, the near impossibility to combo, the ease to recover, the extremely hard time one now has edgeguarding, the limited technical aspects, virtually any lack of a lag-cancelling technique, making pretty much anything punishable.

I mean, a fighting game where pretty much any approach of any kind, i.e. a move, on shield is punishable by a grab/another move, possibly setting up for at least one more hit? Yeah, the fighting community scoffs at that as well. We'll be reduced to poking. Running back and forth and poking with jabs hoping they'll hit, too afraid of doing anything.

It's like Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX where pretty much everything is unsafe and results in you eating a combo, though you can easily get out of it because you get enough chakra (let's compare it to, um, damage + DI) to Kawarimi (let's call it "Airdodge behind someone with a downwards sweep") to get out of a combo after pretty much 3 hits.

Not to mention the fact that gravitation was increased so that the opponent would pretty much drop to the ground not very far into a combo, making it impossible to do long combos (the same as increasing floatiness in Brawl to make it virtually impossible to combo people).

The game was reduced to, at high level play, jabbing in the hopes of creating openings. No shield pressure (despite shield breaking existing, much like Brawl, only now the shield goes down much slower) of any kind as any such thing would just result in a BB (counter-jabs) into a combo. One would randomly throw out a grab in the hopes of it hitting, risking retaliation if it whiffed.

Other than that, it was mostly a game of camping and limited fakeouts because of the limited gaming engine. Matches took forever, were very limited, stale and boring. Sounds familiar?

Ironically, the predecesser to Naruto: GNT EX was for the Gamecube and GNT EX was its sequel, the first one on the Wii. It seems cute little 3D gaming franchises based on famous characters go to Hell whenever they transistion from the GC to the Wii.
Good point. But...

We still don't know all the Brawl ATs, do we? Of COURSE the game sucks now compared to melee. And, granted, there is no way we can be SURE that undiscovered techniques exist that will solve part of the problem. But they *have* been popping up under scrutiny, which is what I was getting at when I linked to that youtube video.

Still, there's no reason to be SURE that Brawl will be as competitive as you want it to be. But there isn't really a reason to be 100% SURE that it will suck.

My point of view is that, based on current evidence, we can't make a judgement one way or another. Yet.
 
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