Kirby M.D.
Smash Journeyman
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SynikaL's Brawl Impressions: "When Hearts Cry" Edition
- Thread starter SynikaL
- Start date
The veterans.
Oh kye i do love your posts, perhaps you should stop trying to explain things in words beyond most peoples literary awareness, such as myself. Ive yet to play myself but seeing your disappointment in this games so far (along with others) i cant help but feel this game is going to fail our standards in the "tourny" scene. I only read the first and last page, that alone made my head hurt so i wont read the inbetween. From what i can see alot of people (the "casual" gamers) are lashing out not really caring so much for "technical" gamers thoughts of how the game is, unfortunately for you "casuals" and others taking this to heart this is only opinion. While some of you can sit with a group of freinds, play with items on max frequency and rock out the "Final Smash" or spam pokeballs, thats not really for us who have been in the tourny scene. We loved the "technical" part of smash, it made it what it was. A very deep complex game, filled with possibilities and what seemed like endless potential. So to see that well in so many words "die" kind of sucks considering most of us loved the competitive community, some of us only knew each other and gathered for this game it brought together people who wouldnt usually hang out with the other due to different social scenes and so forth.
So let me get back to usual self
for all those who bashed Kye's post: Go **** yourself
So let me get back to usual self
for all those who bashed Kye's post: Go **** yourself
SynikaL
Smash Lord
So here we are... 5+ years later. I was thinking about my time spent in this scene, recently and decided to google this thread. It generated a good deal of noise throughout various communities at its inception. I'm just curious to see how people's perception to the OP and this game have changed over the years. I've hardly paid much attention to the Smash scene at all in the passed few years, so I have no idea as to how things have progressed in this scene - in regards to Brawl in particular. My unfortunate, combative tone as an aside: how on point was I regarding my initial impressions of this game? How far off base? I'm sure the game has a thriving competitive scene due to the nature of it being the newest Smash game, but how has the game's competitive mechanics held up in the eyes of its scene in regards to its predecessor? I'm truly curious.
Vigilant Gambit
Smash Journeyman
Five years is a long time. We've all grown, matured, and tried out new games. As far as the accuracy of your initial post about Brawl, though? When I first got the email notification about a new post in this thread, this is pretty much what I was thinking:
http://tinyurl.com/dysba3l
http://tinyurl.com/dysba3l
SynikaL
Smash Lord
I definitely care! I'm not looking for validation or dismissal - just a discussion. I'm genuinely curious as to how this community's perception of the Brawl/Melee dichotomy as changed in five years. People saw the initial post as alarmist at its inception and I personally can't imagine it would still be seen as so today, considering the size of both communities, the perception of Brawl today in outside communities, and endeavors such as 'Project M'.
-Kimosabae
The MC Clusky
Smash Lord
I remember this thread! I'm posting because it's at the top of my subscribed threads.
After seeing all of Smashboards uniting to deliver the Spirit Bomb and get Melee into Evo via the donation drive, I think it's official: the Melee dark ages are over.
It was tough seeing Melee regulated to the side, to see Brawl players speak so high and mighty of their new game, complain how broken or uninviting Melee was, or defend the very obvious issues there are with Brawl on the whole. Most of the smash community wanted to move on, under one game. Melee was lucky to get 20 or 30 entrants, while Brawl averaged numbers above 70 at times (and these are the numbers based on the Texas Smash scene).
Some people converted to Brawl, others stuck with Melee, and many saw it as a good reason to leave Smash all together. Brawl converts eventually drifted back to Melee (like Gimpyfish) or other games in the new generation of fighting games, like Street Fighter IV and Marvel vs Capcom 3. The Brawl community rages on, but it seems like it's starting to slow down. A stale metagame, a lack of new and exciting players (the same players have consistently placed top 3 for years in our scene), and the fact that nobody can agree on Metaknight being banned... or the fact that there's a debate at all, leads to a large lack of unity in the Brawl community, and thus it can't even seem to take itself too seriously. Most of the Brawl players in San Antonio have stopped caring about the game. They only organize Brawl tournaments at the anime convention game rooms I run because I give them the venue and free reign over running it, and there's a lot of pot monsters in the form of weeaboos.
Melee has continued to evolve, and also has Project M giving Melee renewed interest as well. Project M has been featured on Kotaku, IGN, and other places, giving what started as a simple wavedash hack a huge spotlight.
The Melee scene has been on the rise in the last two years,now that we've returned to Evo, A TWELVE YEAR OLD GAME MIND YOU, I think it's official: Melee is back on top.
SynikaL
Smash Lord
Not enough 'Likes' for this post. Thanks for the update.
Surprising to hear Metaknight is still such a problem. Irony dictates that was the one thing I believed would be open to changing drastically after the first few weeks. I remember Thomas Tipman looking at his reveal trailer so many months prior and coming to the immediate conclusion he was the best character in the game. I thought he was crazy for making such a bold statement before the game was even released.
Heh.
Was there some sort of debate regarding which game would make a better representation at Evo or was Melee pretty much the consensus?
Platsy
Smash Mouth
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2012
- Messages
- 559
- NNID
- Cyani-Oxide
There was a voting system for which game should be in EVO by a donation for breast cancer. The game with the most money donated in it's category would get the spot. If I recall, Melee was miles over Brawl; somewhere over $90,000.
http://www.joystiq.com/2013/02/01/evo-2013-charity-drive-raises-over-200-000-smash-bros-melee-f/
Djent
Smash Champion
There wasn't a debate, nor was there need for one. The Melee community rallied behind the polls and the donation drive to a much greater degree. I wasn't around in 2008, but I get the impression that many Brawlers didn't want their game back at EVO after how it was handled the first time. Melee players, on the other hand, saw this as their "golden ticket." And with how fast they organized their donation campaigns, the few Brawl players who would've wanted their game represented found it more prudent to give to Melee instead. It was the first time in my three years on these boards that I've seen this community agree on anything, lol.
SynikaL
Smash Lord
Yeah, I heard of the donation drive. Kudos to you guys. I just wasn't sure if the two communities competed amongst each other using the donation drive as a metric for which game would be represented, or what.
Prior to Brawl; the Smash scene was the best scene, IMO. The most congenial, and the most fun. Only problem I had with it at the time was the average player's proclivity to ignore fighting games outside Melee - but Melee was the only game I cared about for a time, and I had ties to other communities, so that wasn't a problem for me (it would become one later, though). Point is: due to the fact that everyone was rallied around one, very dynamic game; the Smash community's cohesiveness was unmatched in the FGC (even though it is/was segregated from the larger FGC in practice).
Brawl was the splitting wedge that went against the grain, and I saw coming, chaotic radiation of its splinters as a result. I hoped, against hope, that I could convince people to let Brawl cook a bit before pushing it as the face of the scene, but failed. I hoped, again, against hope, that despite that failure, the game wouldn't divvy up the community too severely - but 'Project M's existence dictates that it has become more divided than I could have imagined. Brawl really hurt this scene, I feel, in terms of perception amongst the larger FGC and the infighting and division it caused. This was at a crucial moment when the Smash scene was finally, slowly, achieving the integration it had so long been seeking (Evo 2007).
Now; there's a new game on the horizon threatening to drive a new wedge. Depending on what kind of game Nintendo/Namco determine it to be; I believe it could be the game that either unites the scene - or splinters it further, damning the Smash scene to exist purely as its own microcosm among the FGC; its essential ligature to said scene being that of genre significance only. That would be real a shame, imo.
Prior to Brawl; the Smash scene was the best scene, IMO. The most congenial, and the most fun. Only problem I had with it at the time was the average player's proclivity to ignore fighting games outside Melee - but Melee was the only game I cared about for a time, and I had ties to other communities, so that wasn't a problem for me (it would become one later, though). Point is: due to the fact that everyone was rallied around one, very dynamic game; the Smash community's cohesiveness was unmatched in the FGC (even though it is/was segregated from the larger FGC in practice).
Brawl was the splitting wedge that went against the grain, and I saw coming, chaotic radiation of its splinters as a result. I hoped, against hope, that I could convince people to let Brawl cook a bit before pushing it as the face of the scene, but failed. I hoped, again, against hope, that despite that failure, the game wouldn't divvy up the community too severely - but 'Project M's existence dictates that it has become more divided than I could have imagined. Brawl really hurt this scene, I feel, in terms of perception amongst the larger FGC and the infighting and division it caused. This was at a crucial moment when the Smash scene was finally, slowly, achieving the integration it had so long been seeking (Evo 2007).
Now; there's a new game on the horizon threatening to drive a new wedge. Depending on what kind of game Nintendo/Namco determine it to be; I believe it could be the game that either unites the scene - or splinters it further, damning the Smash scene to exist purely as its own microcosm among the FGC; its essential ligature to said scene being that of genre significance only. That would be real a shame, imo.
I don't really see how brawl has divided the scene. You look at nationals like apex and you can see communities from all over join together. Not to mention with the fgc there as well they interacted with smashers and it was fun. there is obviously a bias in the fgc and their perception with brawl. one only has to go to shoryuken.com and it becomes obvious. But why care about ignorance? Japan,European, USA,Chileans all competing together in the same game. The game has seen growth in game mechanics from figuring out new tactics and such. MK and ICs are the strongest and dominate the scenes. All FGC games have dominating chars this is not something new. MK is a bit op just because his toughest mu is a 50:50 ratio, often resulting in mk dittos and such. I feel the biggest thing that made smash die out is its departure from mlg. It was easy to see during the melee days and easily the brawl days. I haven't seen the interest in brawl that I recall from 2010. That was probably the golden year for brawl.
Initial impressions? From day one I advocated that Brawl was an utter failure of a game compared to Melee regarding the competitive scene; that sentiment still holds true. Alas, Nintendo put a bad taste in my mouth after the release of the rancid poo-stain that is Brawl. I would much rather spend my money on overpriced Magic: The Gathering singles than ever purchase another Nintendo product.
Mentioning Brawl...I think I just puked a little in my mouth...Excuse me while I ago purify myself in the waters of Lake Minnetonka.
Mentioning Brawl...I think I just puked a little in my mouth...Excuse me while I ago purify myself in the waters of Lake Minnetonka.
It's not so much the "easy to pick up part" so much as the "hey any old idiot can pick this game up and be amazing with no investment of time or motivation".
I don't necessarily agree with this somewhat pessimistic viewpoint IMO as I believe there is still some untapped potential in brawl but I think that's what they were trying to get across, and if I was wrong please correct me.
I don't necessarily agree with this somewhat pessimistic viewpoint IMO as I believe there is still some untapped potential in brawl but I think that's what they were trying to get across, and if I was wrong please correct me.
SynikaL
Smash Lord
"Salty"? Seriously? After all this time, people still share this jejune perspective on the Brawl/Melee dichotomy? You don't see how people that developed certain values in regards to Melee may have had those values legitimately threatened by Brawl and were just venting their concerns? This thread is still being dismissed as mere ********?
Maybe that's because this dichotomy you're speaking of is out of date, my friend.
I couldn't indeed care less about six years old emotions that are long gone in today's Melee community. Except for that one guy that pukes whenever he writes the B-word on an Internet forum, for some reason.
I couldn't indeed care less about six years old emotions that are long gone in today's Melee community. Except for that one guy that pukes whenever he writes the B-word on an Internet forum, for some reason.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
For the person who said Brawl lacks new and exciting players tell that to the Zero Suit Samus player who won Apex and beat the world's top metaknights.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
and you people act like melee doesn't have any flaws either
I would take out "very", but this idea is/was correct. However, players are getting better at abusing the positional advantages they are put in once they land a hit. I think a lot of people under value positional advantages/disadvantages in brawl. Do CGs count? Those exist too. Generally though, you're correct: few true combos.
This I disagree with. Falcon may not get a true combo off of raptor boost in brawl, but following up is far from impossible. First, the opponent is above Falcon after said hit, and at this point all brawl players should know how bad it is to be above the opponent in a match. Second, Falcon can chase you in the air or wait to punish you're landing, and this is where picking the correct options comes in. If he follows you in the air, he can go for frame traps, attempt to outspace you, or read whatever you're going to do. If he stays on the ground, same deal. It's more about dealing with 50/50s, outside of frame traps.
@bolded- Being above the opponent =/= neutral. Just the other day, CT_ZeRo released a video on landing because it's such a bad position to be in. This is something I've seen get players get better with over time. They've started to abuse how much more limited the opponent is once they're in the air.
Anything that puts the opponent in the air is useful in Brawl. It can lead to frame traps or positional advantages, and let's not forget that one of the opponents most powerful options, shield, is unavailable once airborne. Given how good shield is in brawl, that's a big deal.
Fortunately, this hasn't happened. I'm not well versed in Melee's PS mechanics, so I can't say if Brawl's changed anything outside from not reflections or parries.
What? Try playing Luigi for a bit. Unless I'm misunderstanding how you're using "homogenized", I disagree with this. The differences in fall speed in Brawl aren't as drastic as the ones in melee, but I wouldn't call them homogenized.
What's your point here? Every Smash game was meant to be played with items. They're in all 3 and turned on by default for a reason, aren't they?
Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think the developers intended for any of the games to be extremely competitive either. If they did, items shouldn't be in, the characters would be better balanced, and half of the stages in the games wouldn't be there.
You were right in predicting brawl tournaments would drag, but this is a T.O. problem. Brawl is a relatively slow game, yes, but there was/is nothing stopping us from changing how tournaments were/are run to make the game finish on time.
It's not pointless. Gimps are still possible and the edge guarder is still potentially doing damage, even if the opponent makes it back.
Nowadays, that would get you killed. All Fox would have to do is steal the ledge from you once you ledge dropped and edge hog you, or just hit you while you're rising up with Aether.
Furthermore, Ike's up B fails to sweetspot the ledge after 5 consecutive sweetspots, so Fox could've just waited. You would've either had to come on stage eventually (difficult to do safely when under pressure), or you would have been vulnerable on the ledge.
A 0-2 Frame random input delay was found, but that's all I've heard about control problems.
The first sentence describes every Smash game.
With regards to techniques, I don't think so. I consider pivot grabbing a technique, and that's used commonly. DACUSes are used often by some characters, and some even use BDACUSes. Diddy's bananas have been explored more, and since he can spawn them whenever he wants, they're something to learn about. Anyway, nothing game-breaking has emerged, but I wouldn't all every technique severely restricted. I guess if you compare them to wavedashing and/or L-canceling, they'd seem restrictive.
This turned out wrong. Current top level play IMO is about how you play the neutral game, your punishment game, how you reset to neutral, spacing, etc., but nothing involving glitches or anything that breaks the game. However, there is a LGL, so maybe you could argue that planking breaks the game, but that hasn't really been fully explored.
Your fact statements (ie things different from melee) were spot on, and you were right about some other things. You weren't totally wrong.
I can't say what I would've thought if I had seen this earlier. I wasn't around SWF when this was made. Anyway, the only thing I don't like about this OP now is that it does something many other posts explaining the "problems" with brawl do, and that is calling X in Brawl bad/a failure by comparing it to Melee or 64, when Brawl wasn't even meant to be a sequel. It is a successor, not a sequel.
Sequel examples: Super Mario Bros -> SMB Lost Levels -> Super Mario Bros. 3 ; Super Mario Galaxy -> Super Mario Galaxy 2 ; Banjo Kazooie -> Banjo Tooie ; Sonic the Hedgehog -> Sonic the Hedgehog 2 -> Sonic 3 and Knuckles.
Sequels directly build off of the previously offered gameplay and or story. By putting a "2" or "3" in the title, the developer is implying that they're building right off of the previous game.
Successor Examples: Super Mario 64 -> Super Mario Sunshine -> Super Mario Galaxy (in the sense of 3D Mario title) ; SSB -> SSBM -> SSBB ; Mario Kart 64 -> Mario Kart Double Dash -> Mario Kart Wii (omitting handheld versions); Paper Mario -> Paper Mario TTYD -> Super Paper Mario -> Paper Mario Sticker Star
Successors usually keep the same general idea of gameplay, but they're at liberty to change mechanics of it. From SM64 -> Sunshine, you got Fludd. In galaxy, you're in space, no Fludd, and you're armed with your star spins and star bits, and you deal with different mechanics like gravity changes. MK64 = Only Karts. MK:DD = Teamwork. MKW = Bikes plus a new drifting mechanic. Super Paper Mario was much less of an RPG than the previous Paper Mario games.
Nintendo obviously didn't intend for Brawl to be Melee 2. If they did, they would (should) have named it that. They had free reign over what they wanted to do with the next smash game. Unless the game is stated to be a sequel, we shouldn't treat it as such. That's why I tend to dismiss most of the "problems" found with brawl, because they're usually mentioned in comparison to something that it was not meant to directly emulate. It's totally acceptable to not like X in Brawl because it was different in Melee, but that doesn't mean X is bad. That's like me calling the teamwork concept in double dash bad because I thought the idea of racing solo in MK64 was much better for a racing game, or saying that Super Paper Mario sucks because it's not an RPG like the first two.
I think there are a few objective problems with brawl: tripping, random input delay, and how some attacks fail to link. Everything else is just different from the previous smash titles though.
As far as "how have the competitive mechanics held up", I think they're alright. I'm going to disregard the "wrt to its predecessor part" because that is irrelevant to me for reasons mentioned above. As Black Mantis mentioned, ZSS won Apex, so Brawl still has room to grow. Diddy Kong can infinite every important character, yet the technique is not being used regularly. We've got a ways to go.
Edit:
Another thing: about the split in the community. I wasn't around here when Brawl was announced, released, and the flame wars ensued, but I know I can say that all of it was unnecessary and it was what really split of the community. Brawl was just a catalyst: the smash community's immaturity and general intolerance is what led to the split. Players should just play what they enjoy and refrain from bashing another game just because it's not exactly like the one they've committed to.
Edit 2:
Black Mantis, that match reminds of something. I think the first time Hbox v Armada happened, the commentators were saying things along the lines of "wtf is this?", "this isn't REAL melee", etc., and that just goes to show you how intolerant some of the melee community is at times, even to things present in their own game.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
Also, BSP this is the match you were referring to.
SynikaL
Smash Lord
BSP: Thank you SO much for that post. Precisely the type of response I was looking for when I made the bump. I'll attempt to address a few of your points when I have the time. Largely, there's not much of anything that I disagree with as many statements you've quoted were generated by a very different individual.
@ Black, Are you complaining about time-out and kiting tactics? That's a legitimate strategy when you're playing for money and you're opponent isn't capitalizing against your game-play (which probably only two characters can achieve). That holds zero relevance to the bland, boring, confined and easy game-play Brawl has to offer because of it's watered down digustingness.
Every single gaming community laughs at "competitive" Brawl players. The game at the highest level is so ridiculously terrible, you can't really take most of the players seriously. No one watches Brawl streams, NO ONE. You see any Brawl tournaments on Twitch that have over 200-300 concurrent viewers on the largest tournaments? I never see them. Melee, a game that's nearing 13 years old averages more than 400-800%+ of the viewer count that Brawl final matches average.
Melee was a step in the right direction towards evolution. Brawl was a step backwards. If SmashWiiU follows in the footsteps of Brawl, the game will be played for 1-2 years max before the community dies out exactly like Brawl did. If the game follows in the footsteps of Melee, we'll be seeing a healthy SmashWiiU community for the next 2 decades.
Every single gaming community laughs at "competitive" Brawl players. The game at the highest level is so ridiculously terrible, you can't really take most of the players seriously. No one watches Brawl streams, NO ONE. You see any Brawl tournaments on Twitch that have over 200-300 concurrent viewers on the largest tournaments? I never see them. Melee, a game that's nearing 13 years old averages more than 400-800%+ of the viewer count that Brawl final matches average.
Melee was a step in the right direction towards evolution. Brawl was a step backwards. If SmashWiiU follows in the footsteps of Brawl, the game will be played for 1-2 years max before the community dies out exactly like Brawl did. If the game follows in the footsteps of Melee, we'll be seeing a healthy SmashWiiU community for the next 2 decades.
You can laugh at the game I play all you want. I have legitimate reasons to play this game over Melee, and I'm far from being the only one. These little taunts do not harm me, though you can and should feel free to try me.
However, do not spread false information about it or its community. You are hurting you own community by doing so.
However, do not spread false information about it or its community. You are hurting you own community by doing so.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
Apex 2013 melee grand finals on youtube has 44,577 views (as of now)
Apex 2013 brawl grand finals on youtube has 72, 441 views (as of now)
......so yeah
At Impulse today, Brawl almost hit 5.5K on viewers. I think Melee hit around 2K.
.....so yeah
Edit: spoke too soon: brawl hit 8.2K
Djent
Smash Champion
8.2K nobodies, apparently. 
Aidebit
Smash Journeyman
MK Banned probably helped in getting some of those. MK Banned Brawl is amazing.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
MK wasn't banned at Impulse.
Aidebit
Smash Journeyman
Wasn't it banned last time?
Oh well.
Oh well.
The MC Clusky
Smash Lord
Haha, I laugh at how even the casual players assume that the MetaKnight ban stuck. It was never going to stick all around.
Easily the biggest problems in Brawl came down to MetaKnight and planking. Planking being an extremely poor side effect of the watered down gameplay.
Easily the biggest problems in Brawl came down to MetaKnight and planking. Planking being an extremely poor side effect of the watered down gameplay.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Cool.
What was that, like, two years ago? How many people used that anti-planking strategy? Come to think of it, didn't a bunch of players contest just how viable it was in a real match? Even GimR himself?
Honest questions.
Smooth Criminal
What was that, like, two years ago? How many people used that anti-planking strategy? Come to think of it, didn't a bunch of players contest just how viable it was in a real match? Even GimR himself?
Honest questions.
Smooth Criminal
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
Provide a source of Gimr questioning it (if you can). Otherwise this is a viable tactic to fight planking. Doesn't matter how old it is what matters is its usefulness.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
- Messages
- 10,050
Generally, all you have to do these days is apply pressure to a planking Metaknight to get them off the ledge. You can do this by baiting them or hitting them with a projectile.
Anyways I think BSP's comment hit the nail right on the head with this thread. The Smash community went through some rough times and really needs to learn from the past few years of growing pains now that the next Smash is coming out. We can't afford to make fools of ourselves with our games like we've been doing (and still are doing) all this time. It's also our job as the experienced Smashers to keep the Smash 4 newcomers in check.
Anyways I think BSP's comment hit the nail right on the head with this thread. The Smash community went through some rough times and really needs to learn from the past few years of growing pains now that the next Smash is coming out. We can't afford to make fools of ourselves with our games like we've been doing (and still are doing) all this time. It's also our job as the experienced Smashers to keep the Smash 4 newcomers in check.
