SynikaL's Brawl Impressions: "When Hearts Cry" Edition

[Neko06]

2) Yuna immediately jumped down my throat saying that I was wrong, I should make my own tournaments, and despite having not played the game, that there is no way items are ok in competitive play.

Clearly he is fiercely defensive of his gaming style, and why not? When you've played in high-stakes tournaments that were largely skill based, you hate to see the game move more towards luck, and to see all the conventions you are familiar rendered obsolete. But that's the way things seem to be moving, as you have more or less stated.

 

[NessPaulaJeffPoo]

Call me a noob or whatever you want, but I played ALL of Melee a lot, and never learned about advanced moves, and I loved the game. I don't think that the removal of all these l - canceling and whatever is going to worsen the game. If your any good at the game, you can win without them, and you should be able to adapt to the new gameplay, because it is mostly the same.

 

[Neko06]

Call me a noob or whatever you want, but I played ALL of Melee a lot, and never learned about advanced moves, and I loved the game. I don't think that the removal of all these l - canceling and whatever is going to worsen the game. If your any good at the game, you can win without them, and you should be able to adapt to the new gameplay, because it is mostly the same.

A valid point, but its hard to say that when $100,000 is on the line.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

wtf TZarek. You can't argue with Yuna directly now so instead you have to tell someone else how it is from your perspective?

1) I posted my impressions saying that I don't think 1v1 no items is very fun or competitive in Brawl, despite having loved it in Melee, but that turning items on actually made it more enjoyable and competitive.

It may or may not be more fun with items, but playing that way is not going to make it a good competitive game. Poker is not comparable in that aspect and you have been shown why.

 

[OrlanduEX]

I agree with you and wish you were right. However, let's take a look at what happened in this thread:

1) I posted my impressions saying that I don't think 1v1 no items is very fun or competitive in Brawl, despite having loved it in Melee, but that turning items on actually made it more enjoyable and competitive.

2) Yuna immediately jumped down my throat saying that I was wrong, I should make my own tournaments, and despite having not played the game, that there is no way items are ok in competitive play.

I wish you were right, but as you can see, people like Yuna are deeply against trying new things, against even considering items in tournament play. They've decided based on Melee that This Is How It Is, and that's it. It's not even a matter of "No, we played with items for 5 hours and didn't like it", it's "ITEMS ARE LUCK THE END". And that's bull****. What if Gimpyfish were the one saying this? Hugs? Mew2King? Whoever? If my opinion that Brawl (BRAWL NOT MELEE) is enjoyable with items in a deeply competitive way is immediately dismissed, what hope is there for exploring the possibilities of Brawl with anything resembling an open mind?

Here's a reasonable skeptical response to my post: "Huh, that's intersting, well, I'll have to try Brawl with items to see, I have my doubts though." Immediately launching into the tired "BUT WHAT IF A BOB-OMB FALLS IT HAPPENED TO KEN" Melee jargon is most distinctly not giving Brawl a chance.

You are choosing not to accept that items can not possibly be fair by virtue of the very fact that they appear at random times in random places.
No matter which item(s) you're playing with, the game randomly favors whoever the item happens to spawn next to. This has nothing to do with luck or skill. It does not foster competition. It's basically "Wow I get an advantage now because this item happened to appear." Random factors such as this ruin competition.
If items always spawned in the same place or both players could start holding a particular item or you earn an item due to your merits in battle, then maybe they'd be different, but as things stand now, items present random advantages/dangers and are thus not suitable for a competition that's supposed to be based on skills and strategies.

 

[NessPaulaJeffPoo]

A valid point, but its hard to say that when $100,000 is on the line.

agreed. if its tournaments we're talking than I have no place to say anything.

 

[180OP]

Shut it. Buy the game and THEN judge it. If you want to play Melee, then GO PLAY MELEE!

WHY are people seemingly complaining that this is not MElee 2.0? We knew this since E for All, and even some time before then. Why are people complaining now I do not know. It's probably because they have noting to do or are really that bored/stupid/trolling.

It's because they are KIDS who think their lives revolve around this game. gosh. it, for some reason, means everything to them.

think brawl sucks? go play melee or whatever you want. but stop *****ing on these forums. this is not the wavedashing-is-out-omg support forums where all the 10 year old whiners come together and heal.

so sick of these threads. gimpyfish had the best thread imo with the tourney vids(****** psycho is amazing).

brawl is good enough for me. these kids need to get a reality check and move on. geez.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

And thus the community was divided.


It looks like Brawl isn't going to cut it as a competitive fighting game. Still awesome in many other ways, no doubt. I'm still excited for it. But I hope competitive Melee survives.

OMG It's TheCatPhysician!!! =O sup homie.

This is not an items vs no items thread. This thread has touched on many aspects of the whole casual game vs tourney game argument, including items. Anyone who wishes to chat and contribute to an argument may.

I like how you post Neko06.

On another note. Competitive play means everything, items are dumb, and Melee > Brawl i'm pretty sure >.>

 

[Jumpfreak]

Having certain items on IS NOT GAMEBREAKING. Of course, I do not currently know of every item and there would have to be a general consensus of which ones are 'tourney worthy'.

Apparently items are much easier to grab out of air this time around...something to consider.

Just because someone gets an item spawned in front of them doesn't mean that the odds are hugely tipped in their favor per-se...

EDIT: Some of you guys need to stop talking in absolutes...be willing to consider anything/everything...

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Posting in a ****y thread.

Seriously though Syn, I respect you and all; but this is a tad Chicken Little. The game's been out for a grand total of 6 days, give it time. It's a completely new game with a new physics engine and as such, there will be a transition period. I also don't agree with the fact that removing Power Shielding, CCing, and DDing is limiting; for most characters they weren't incredibly important. It seems that you were expecting Melee 2 and are crestfallen that your wasn't granted. The Smash populace got fair warning that this game was not going to be Melee.

To those in the Items/No Items "debate" on the back pages:
Stop. Seriously. This has been done to death, and it's been proven time and time again that the argument is nothing more than trolling with higher aspirations. Whether or not you play items is not like whether or not you believe in organized religion; stop arguing like it is. See the bloody forest through the trees for once and be grateful you have a good game to ruin with your petty hangups.

 

[Yuna]

1) I posted my impressions saying that I don't think 1v1 no items is very fun or competitive in Brawl, despite having loved it in Melee, but that turning items on actually made it more enjoyable and competitive.

2) Yuna immediately jumped down my throat saying that I was wrong, I should make my own tournaments, and despite having not played the game, that there is no way items are ok in competitive play.

I wish you were right, but as you can see, people like Yuna are deeply against trying new things, against even considering items in tournament play. They've decided based on Melee that This Is How It Is, and that's it. It's not even a matter of "No, we played with items for 5 hours and didn't like it", it's "ITEMS ARE LUCK THE END". And that's bull****. What if Gimpyfish were the one saying this? Hugs? Mew2King? Whoever? If my opinion that Brawl (BRAWL NOT MELEE) is enjoyable with items in a deeply competitive way is immediately dismissed, what hope is there for exploring the possibilities of Brawl with anything resembling an open mind?

Here's a reasonable skeptical response to my post: "Huh, that's intersting, well, I'll have to try Brawl with items to see, I have my doubts though." Immediately launching into the tired "BUT WHAT IF A BOB-OMB FALLS IT HAPPENED TO KEN" Melee jargon is most distinctly not giving Brawl a chance.

You skill don't get it. To purposely make a game more luck-based for competitive play is never a good thing. It imbalances the game because certain characters become much better than others because of items. Luck is also added heavily.

This is a very simple concept you don't seem to grasp. When money is at stoke, people tend to prefer skill before luck and the for element of luck to be limited as much as possible. I've acknowledged that it might be fun to play with items. I've even said you're free to host item-based tourneys.

In response, to talk about me as if I'm a narrowminded biggot who can't even think of trying new things, preaching as if your way is the only way and failed to even once acknowledge that, yes, people tend to indeed favour removing luck-based elements from adding luck-based elements.

 

[Yuna]

Having certain items on IS NOT GAMEBREAKING. Of course, I do not currently know of every item and there would have to be a general consensus of which ones are 'tourney worthy'.

Apparently items are much easier to grab out of air this time around...something to consider.

Just because someone gets an item spawned in front of them doesn't mean that the odds are hugely tipped in their favor per-se...

Doesn't have to, but could. It could happen repeatedly in a single match, tipping the scales severely. And it happens on random. The outcomes of entire tournaments could be shaped because of it.

This is why items aren't allowed, to prevent such things from happening.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

See, I think the chief problem here is that people are worrying about playing Smash Bros with money at stake. But that's just my opinion.

 

[TZarek]

You are choosing not to accept that items can not possibly be fair by virtue of the very fact that they appear at random times in random places.
No matter which item(s) you're playing with, the game randomly favors whoever the item happens to spawn next to. This has nothing to do with luck or skill. It does not foster competition. It's basically "Wow I get an advantage now because this item happened to appear." Random factors such as this ruin competition.
If items always spawned in the same place or both players could start holding a particular item or you earn an item due to your merits in battle, then maybe they'd be different, but as things stand now, items present random advantages/dangers and are thus not suitable for a competition that's supposed to be based on skills and strategies.

I don't think items are fair. They're inherently unfair. A star quarterback and great football player getting shot the day before the big game isn't fair, but it happens and football goes on. A sudden wind blowing a golf ball astray isn't fair, but golf goes on. A one in a million royal flush isn't fair, but poker goes on. Smash With Items is inherently unfair. That doesn't mean it's not a good competitive game.

Seriously, I realize that items are such a touchy subject that it's almost impossible to discuss them rationally, so maybe it was a mistake to even try. For what it's worth, I think every single thing I said in my original post stands. I think Melee is a great game, and Brawl Without Items is a poor one. As for Brawl With Items...well, I just don't yet. I like it, but my opinions are hardly canon. All I'm saying is, for the fiftieth time, that just because Brawl 1v1 No Items is a poor game, and I think many people are agreeing that it is, does not mean Brawl is a complete competitive failure. There are, in fact, other ways to play, enjoy, and be competitive, in Smash. That's all.

 

[Neko06]

Random factors such as this ruin competition.

That is your opinion. One shared by quite a few people, but it is worth considering other viewpoints.. Some people are speaking from the viewpoint of a competitive player playing for large amount of cash or recognition within the community. For them, an even playing field is important. Not everyone here plays for money and glory though, and it seems that those who do might have a harder time adjusting. I think Brawl tournaments will overall end up less serious than Melee tournaments.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

OMG It's TheCatPhysician!!! =O sup homie.

NoobKing! It's like Mew2King, but a noob.

I wonder if there will be tournaments to meet up at when I move to Washington.

 

[Neko06]

See, I think the chief problem here is that people are worrying about playing Smash Bros with money at stake. But that's just my opinion.

I didn't want to come right out and say it, but I think that's a big part of it.

 

[FalseFalco]

Yuna, it seems like your posts are comprised only of rips on Brawl. Even if justified, they aren't providing possible solutions in the same way TZarek is. What do you think we should do to make Brawl competitive?

As far as I can see your strategy is not playing Brawl altogether. That works for me, but compromise is always more agreeable.

 

[Flaming Dragon Wang]

This can be resolved simply. Sakurai will release Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Professional Edition. There will be no items, no trophies, and no single player. The only playable stage will be Final Destination, and the only playable character will be Fox. There will be an option to turn off distracting stage backgrounds and music, and players are forbidden to smile on grounds of disqualification.

 

[slikvik]

This can be resolved simply. Sakurai will release Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Professional Edition. There will be no items, no trophies, and no single player. The only playable stage will be Final Destination, and the only playable character will be Fox. There will be an option to turn off distracting stage backgrounds and music, and players are forbidden to smile on grounds of disqualification.

*puts on ignore list*

 

[Mr.C]

Items being allowed in competitive tournaments will never happen. When you're playing for $1000+ you don't want random/luck factors. Hell Melee and Brawl already have luck factors but they are caused by you and your opponent. What if he misses his Lcancel? and you are free to get a decent combo, isn't that lucky? Having items when people are playing seriously take away the skill factor and items for the most part are unbalanced.

Of course items are fun when playing around...to keep things spicy but when playing for money you want the match to be between you and your opponent. Not you and your opponent who just happened to pick up a beam sword. Now you have someone chopping *****s for 30% each hit and you can't do shizz about it.

 

[Yuna]

Just because a few people disagree doesn't mean the community at large does >_>. In melee items were tested and the rulesets varied on the East and West coasts of the US but wifi should bring the community closer I guess.

I just don't wanna play with items because they are just boring to me and that's that lol.

Sources or it didn't happen. I've never heard of the coasts disagreeing. And they were all going by No Item tourneys in 2002 or whatever.

This is pathetic. ITEMS BEING ON WILL NOT CHANGE THE GAME TO 100% LUCK. You're acting as if by turning on just a single item, even a crummy one, suddenly the entire game will change so that a single player has the advantage and the other player can't do a thing about it. You must be a horrible player if you can't dodge an item thrown at you every now and then. We're not talking game-breaking here, we're talking little items. I mean geez, the Gooey Bomb? Lip's Stick? Sandbag? Giving a player a clear 100% advantage? Geez, are you that concerned about having to deal with a little luck that you're afraid of something that might cause a little damage and that you can dodge or even stick back onto your enemy?

Who said it will? Who ever mentioned 100%? I said it will introduce more luck. And chances are every once in a while, an extremely important tournament will be decided because of sheer dumb luck when we could've prevented it.

 

[Flaming Dragon Wang]

I love you too. <3

 

[Neko06]

*puts on ignore list*

Because a little satire is a bad thing when tempers are high?

 

[flyinfilipino]

Because a little satire is a bad thing when tempers are high?

Nah, it was an intentional stupid post made for attention.

But Yuna, do you have any ideas for improving the Brawl competitive community?

 

[Xengri]

I agree with you and wish you were right. However, let's take a look at what happened in this thread:

1) I posted my impressions saying that I don't think 1v1 no items is very fun or competitive in Brawl, despite having loved it in Melee, but that turning items on actually made it more enjoyable and competitive.

2) Yuna immediately jumped down my throat saying that I was wrong, I should make my own tournaments, and despite having not played the game, that there is no way items are ok in competitive play.

I wish you were right, but as you can see, people like Yuna are deeply against trying new things, against even considering items in tournament play. They've decided based on Melee that This Is How It Is, and that's it. It's not even a matter of "No, we played with items for 5 hours and didn't like it", it's "ITEMS ARE LUCK THE END". And that's bull****. What if Gimpyfish were the one saying this? Hugs? Mew2King? Whoever? If my opinion that Brawl (BRAWL NOT MELEE) is enjoyable with items in a deeply competitive way is immediately dismissed, what hope is there for exploring the possibilities of Brawl with anything resembling an open mind?

Here's a reasonable skeptical response to my post: "Huh, that's intersting, well, I'll have to try Brawl with items to see, I have my doubts though." Immediately launching into the tired "BUT WHAT IF A BOB-OMB FALLS IT HAPPENED TO KEN" Melee jargon is most distinctly not giving Brawl a chance.

I can see where you're coming from.
I can't speak for Yuna, since Yuna's Yuna.

However, I can tell you that S/he doesn’t make up the entire majority.

Same goes for the higher ups. Just because M2K and co. are high ranking players doesn’t mean that they get to make up the rules.

All tournament players will come together and (after extensively played the game) put together a set of rules that will benefit the environment that they love and participate in.

That’s why time is so critical in these decisions.
I can’t stress this enough.

With time, players will start to understand Brawl.
Right now, most of what we know about Brawl is coming form prior Melee knowledge, which is not a bad thing.

Brawl is a smash game. Melee was a smash game so of course, we’ll use Melee knowledge when first playing Brawl.

However, as time goes on, we’ll learn more about Brawl and it’s unique traits.
As time passes, We’ll learn more about Brawl and expanded are knowledge. Eventually to the point in which we rely more on Brawl specific knowledge instead of what we can infer from Melee.

Once our understanding of Brawl overshadows the knowledge that we brought over from Melee. Then, we will be ready to look at Brawl in a much more comprehending and open mind. Then, we will be able to fully judge Brawl’s potential. Then, we’ll be able to fully form what we (as individuals) believe will be the fairest way to play Brawl. Then, we’ll come together as a player base and together form the standard rules of smash.
Based mostly on Brawl specific information instead of being based on mostly carried over info that came from Melee ( which at this point, the latter source of info overshadows the former source, seeing as it’s only been about a week).

And, If the new standard set of rules still happens to disagree with you, well… Host your own tournaments. No one is stopping you. As long as a decent amount of players agree with your rules, you’ll have a tournament.


Summary:
We need to till the day the player base has a higher degree of Brawl specific knowledge.
Right now, every Brawl player’s knowledge about Brawl comes primarily from what then could carry over form Melee.
( I can say this because, It doesn’t matter who you are. Even if you have played Brawl none stop, since the day it was released in Japan, you still haven’t been playing long enough)

We need to know more about Brawl (not smash in general) before we make such important decisions about Brawl.
I.e. Tiers/ standard tournament rules/ depth/ etc.
Only reason why someone might say that items will never be in tournament play is because they are basing that by the carried over knowledge of Melee. That's not bad since right now that's were most of our knowledge comes from.
None of us know what will happen for sure in Brawl. We have to give are selfs time to see if items can work into Brawl tournament play.
I'm not saying there will be items.... but none of us know for sure. Not yet.

Yuna:
I agree with pretty much everything you say, expect one thing.
To me it seems like you already put the nail in the coffin for Brawl. You say that, the system of Brawl pretty much tells that we won’t take it as deep as Melee.
Don’t you think we should allow more time to past before making such assumptions?

Yes, the lack of L-cancel deals a large blow to mind game potential, but something along the way may replace it.

Maybe I’m wrong on my interpretation of what you think.

Basically, my question is.
Don’t you think it’s just plain to early to start judging Brawl on such a important aspects?

 

[OrlanduEX]

I don't think items are fair. They're inherently unfair. A star quarterback and great football player getting shot the day before the big game isn't fair, but it happens and football goes on. A sudden wind blowing a golf ball astray isn't fair, but golf goes on. A one in a million royal flush isn't fair, but poker goes on. Smash With Items is inherently unfair. That doesn't mean it's not a good competitive game.

Seriously, I realize that items are such a touchy subject that it's almost impossible to discuss them rationally, so maybe it was a mistake to even try. For what it's worth, I think every single thing I said in my original post stands. I think Melee is a great game, and Brawl Without Items is a poor one. As for Brawl With Items...well, I just don't yet. I like it, but my opinions are hardly canon. All I'm saying is, for the fiftieth time, that just because Brawl 1v1 No Items is a poor game, and I think many people are agreeing that it is, does not mean Brawl is a complete competitive failure. There are, in fact, other ways to play, enjoy, and be competitive, in Smash. That's all.

Please stop bringing up the way that sports are affected by random factors like weather and such. These things hamper athletes' ability to play the game, they don't enhance it.
We play Smash without items because we want the outcome of our matches to be determined specifically based on the abilities of the players in question and not based on random factors. I don't see why this is hard to understand.
Why introduce excess elements of luck and random chance into the competitive environment? Items may be fun and all that if you like them, I can't stop you from using them and I don't want to, but when it comes to tournament play where money is on the line, you don't want random chances to affect your match.

 

[E-Z-MONEY]

I just read most of the thread and many of it's poster's conduct saddens me. I honestly don't care if brawl is competitive or not. The closest thing I will come to a tourney is online and with friends but certain elements of brawl make me weep like the lack of wavedashing, l canceling and different falling speeds. I had just started wavedashing and L cancelling too!! Bad luck I suppose. Regardless Wavedashing is an exploit and L cancelling isn't really needed with more balanced characters. Which is my favorite part about brawl by the way. None of the characters are pichu bad and none are fox good.

Items should probably be off when there is money on the line. I think they add a lot to the game and they are fun and I like randomness (even with money on the line) but I respect that not everybody is like me.

 

[Neko06]

Nah, it was an intentional stupid post made for attention.

To each his own I suppose, I found it humorous.

 

[TheManaLord]

Wind affects everyone equally? Funny, last time I checked the wind doesn't blow a golf ball off course for the first player, then change so that it affects the second player differently in order to keep things equal. The second player clearly has the advantage because he knows how the wind is going to affect his ball because the wind is still blowing the same direction at the same speed.

Now you're just being a nitpicky technical douche who has failed to see when he's wrong.

Jesus, just give it up.

 

[slikvik]

Because a little satire is a bad thing when tempers are high?

*looks at join date and ignores*

 

[gemini-saga]

I think the question itens on Brawl will need time and experts making a neu Judment... Since is a new game, with new physics, with new Techs...

This is the Fair thing to do.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, it seems like your posts are comprised only of rips on Brawl. Even if justified, they aren't providing possible solutions in the same way TZarek is. What do you think we should do to make Brawl competitive?

As far as I can see your strategy is not playing Brawl altogether. That works for me, but compromise is always more agreeable.

I have never advocated not playing Brawl. I am, however, advocating not playing Brawl competitively at its current state (with or without items). I'm fine with it becoming the new Low Tiers, though, a smaller side-tourney.

Unless we find out a whole bunch of new truly game-breaking aspects, I wouldn't want Brawl to replace Melee. It's OK if some people want to start a series of Brawl tournaments, what do I care? I just wouldn't go. They can use items, Final Smashes, Assist Trophies, Heavy Mode for all I care. I won't be playing in them, after all.

As the game stands at the moment, I don't see it having a deep competitive future. And I personally wouldn't attend Brawl-only tournaments. It's just too boring and broken competitively speaking.

Yuna:
I agree with pretty much everything you say, expect one thing.
To me it seems like you already put the nail in the coffin for Brawl. You say that, the system of Brawl pretty much tells that we won’t take it as deep as Melee.
Don’t you think we should allow more time to past before making such assumptions?

Yes, the lack of L-cancel deals a large blow to mind game potential, but something along the way may replace it.

Maybe I’m wrong on my interpretation of what you think.

Basically, my question is.
Don’t you think it’s just plain to early to start judging Brawl on such a important aspects?

I never asid it could never become as deep as Melee. I said that the limiting gaming engine itself limits the game so much that unless the new Advanced Techniques we find in the future somehow breaks the game engine itself, we'll be stuck with a very barebones fighter that could never approach the depth of Melee. It's not just the lack of stuff in Melee, it's the limits put forth by the game itself that pretty much limits even the potential of Advanced Techs. So what if you find a tech that can do X-thing? I won't really be that effective because Y-thing in the game engine limits its use to Z-thing.

Also, for future reference, as Haku so eloquently put it, "By the way, I am a man".

 

[OrlanduEX]

L cancelling isn't really needed with more balanced characters. Which is my favorite part about brawl by the way. None of the characters are pichu bad and none are fox good.

That doesn't seem to be the case. Some characters like Ganondorf and DDD appear to be terribly hampered by the irreducible lag of their air moves. Their strength doesn't quite make up for it as they now lack the mobility necessary to string together combos to rack up enough damage to actually make KOs.

 

[Neko06]

Such hostility here... If you wish to ignore me, that is your right though. There's no point in trying to talk to those who won't listen. For the sake of being able to follow the conversation though, I suggest you don't.

 

[Dustero]

Pretty much everybody doesn't like Brawl when they first get it, but after a couple of days they understand it better and think that it's better than Melee.

 

[Dustero]

People have to understand that Brawl is Brawl and Melee is Melee, they will never be the exact same. If you don't want to play without your AT then stop playing Brawl and continue playing Melee.

 

[Yuna]

Pretty much everybody doesn't like Brawl when they first get it, but after a couple of days they understand it better and think that it's better than Melee.

That's a pretty brave statement to make without evidence when evidence of the contrary exists. Who are these people? Name 10.

 

[E-Z-MONEY]

That doesn't seem to be the case. Some characters like Ganondorf and DDD appear to be terribly hampered by the irreducible lag of their air moves. Their strength doesn't quite make up for it as they now lack the mobility necessary to string together combos to rack up enough damage to actually make KOs.

I haven't played the game and I'm not a pro so I'll take your word for it. Are those characters still good though? Not good but at least average or low average? I've heard good things about DDD and averagish things about Ganondorf.

 

[E-Z-MONEY]

People have to understand that Brawl is Brawl and Melee is Melee, they will never be the exact same. If you don't want to play without your AT then stop playing Brawl and continue playing Melee.

You, sir, are going to get ignored because some people in this thread are really freaking sensitive.


Stop Ignoring people. It makes you look like a troll. Especially when you do it for stupid things.