Super Smash Bros. Infinite Project (Finally Finished!???)

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Yes just one character

Sorry if the wording was odd.

Sorry. I'll remove Naked snake.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

How is it people still don't understand echoes have to have the same skeleton as their base fighter


How are Coco and Classic Sonic even eligible for this

 

[chocolatejr9]

How is it people still don't understand echoes have to have the same skeleton as their base fighter


How are Coco and Classic Sonic even eligible for this

NGL, I thought the one you'd take issue with would be Small Mario.

No offense, Wario, but that's REALLY pushing it, even for you.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

NGL, I thought the one you'd take issue with would be Small Mario.

No offense, Wario, but that's REALLY pushing it, even for you.

I've advocated for Small Mario on other stretches of the site before, I really like the idea of getting to play as an (in-universe, not in-game) objectively inferior/weaker version of a character

 

[BowserKing]

Meinshao

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/mienshao620.png

This could be the last time for this Pokémon to shine. Debuting in Pokémon Black and White, this Pokémon will be an echo of Lucario, with similar moves, but also Metal Claw and High Jump Kick

 

[Capybara Gaming]

NGL, I thought the one you'd take issue with would be Small Mario.

No offense, Wario, but that's REALLY pushing it, even for you.

I didn't even see that submission, but yes, I take the same issue that I have with the first two, compounded by the fact that would literally be a waste of a slot. At least Classic Sonic literally canonically can't do a lot of Modern's abilities, forcing him to at least be a little different.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I didn't even see that submission, but yes, I take the same issue that I have with the first two, compounded by the fact that would literally be a waste of a slot. At least Classic Sonic literally canonically can't do a lot of Modern's abilities, forcing him to at least be a little different.

I do agree that Coco is pushing the boundaries of an echo fighter with her neck and all, but Classic and Small are probably less distant from their base counterparts than Pikachu to Pichu or Isabelle to Villager

Also, I literally detailed what would make Small unique.

 

[Janx_uwu]

ignore this

 

[Jomosensual]

Really busy so I can't write up right now

I submit Apollo Justice

 

[Justoneguyhere1999]

Does echo fighters always need to have the same exact body proportions as the original? I think Classic Sonic could still work. I am assuming Sonic's moveset didn't change all that much here. So Classic Sonic can still have a similar moveset

Altough I guess I can change it to just Zack Fair.

 

[PastaRorroKuma]

I think limiting echoes to characters with the same skeleton is dumb, very dumb, echoes should be clones with enough differences to guarantee that someone might use them over the original, but still being almost the same
Anyways.

Big Boss (Without the cigarette) - Snake Echo
I just want more Metal Gear in Smash, he's also quite beloved and apparently him and Raiden are decently requested as fighters.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Crash and Coco literally have the exact same gameplay in Crash 4 and N. Sane trilogy, if canon Crash games could give them the same controls and moveset, I don't know why Smash couldn't.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Crash and Coco literally have the exact same gameplay in Crash 4 and N. Sane trilogy, if canon Crash games could give them the same controls and moveset, I don't know why Smash couldn't.

Hitboxes are a lot more important in a fighting game than a platformer. Coco twirling instead of spinning or ground pounding instead of belly slamming are cute details in a platformer but MAJOR differences in a fighting game where hitbox size is important, and would require the moves' stats to be majorly reworked to account for those animations.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Hitboxes are a lot more important in a fighting game than a platformer. Coco twirling instead of spinning or ground pounding instead of belly slamming are cute details in a platformer but MAJOR differences in a fighting game where hitbox size is important, and would require the moves' stats to be majorly reworked to account for those animations.

Hitboxes are exactly the same in the original game. Don't really see much reworking required if they could pull it off before.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Hitboxes are exactly the same in the original game. Don't really see much reworking required if they could pull it off before.

Because Crash games are platformers, while Smash is a platform fighter. The contexts are extremely different.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Because Crash games are platformers, while Smash is a platform fighter. The contexts are extremely different.

Doesn't seem that different to me. The whole point of Smash being a platform fighter is because Sakurai wanted the characters to play as closely to their original games as possible.

Also you submitted Small Mario which is literally half the height of Mario, so that seems far more of a violation of your philosophy when it comes to hitboxes....

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Doesn't seem that different to me. Also you literally submitted Small Mario which is half the height of Mario, so about those hitboxes....

1. inaccurate hitboxes are non-issues in platformers, but in a platform fighter they can be a major issue - take Smash 64 Kirby's up tilt or Melee Marth's grab for example. The size of Coco's lower half (or feet if you want to use the WoC stomp) compared to the size of Crash's belly would require the move to either be greatly buffed to compensate for the smaller hitbox (the optimsl solution IMO), make Coco outright useless over Crash because of the smaller hitbox, look really weird, or just become prime material for @CursedHitboxes

2. Because that's the point of Small Mario - his main distinguishing factor - in addition, while SM's limbs and belly are stouter, it is still the same general shape and literally the same model as Mario. Coco is too thin compared to Crash to be an identical clone like Daisy, but her head is too big for that thinness to effect her gameplay like Pichu's size, and because Coco has a neck no Crash animations would be reusable for her. I should note that while Crash's gameplay is reused for Coco in N. Sane and IAT, his animations are not.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

1. inaccurate hitboxes are non-issues in platformers, but in a platform fighter they can be a major issue - take Smash 64 Kirby's up tilt or Melee Marth's grab for example. The size of Coco's lower half (or feet if you want to use the WoC stomp) compared to the size of Crash's belly would require the move to either be greatly buffed to compensate for the smaller hitbox (the optimsl solution IMO), make Coco outright useless over Crash because of the smaller hitbox, look really weird, or just become prime material for @CursedHitboxes

2. Because that's the point of Small Mario - his main distinguishing factor - in addition, while SM's limbs and belly are stouter, it is still the same general shape and literally the same model as Mario. Coco is too thin compared to Crash to be an identical clone like Daisy, but her head is too big for that thinness to effect her gameplay like Pichu's size, and because Coco has a neck no Crash animations would be reusable for her. I should note that while Crash's gameplay is reused for Coco in N. Sane and IAT, his animations are not.

"Non issue" in platformers, huh, if the hitboxes of my character were completely off in a platformer, I think I would have some trouble with the game. Regardless that doesn't matter, cause while I'm not going to get into your technical jargon, I've said multiple times before, they play identically in their own game, so I don't see why it would be such a big deal to translate that to a platform fighter.

His main distinguishing factor, is having a completely different skeleton and height which violates your own fantasies on inaccurate hitboxes. "Literally the same model" except for that being half the size of Mario, which is a pretty big difference compared to any differences between Crash and Coco, at least their the same height.

Several echos and clones have altered animations in Smash already. Doesn't stop them from being echos.

 

[cashregister9]

Yeah I'm submitting Roxas/Xion again

Roxas /Xion(Sora Echo)

KH2 amd 358/2 Spoilers ahead!

Roxas is Sora's Nobody, Due to being a literal clone of Sora, Roxas uses many of sora's moves. but Roxas also has a few unique moves that can be used. Xion is another clone of sora but modeled after Kairi, Xion much like Roxas shares moves with Sora. This would be a Male/Female Robin/Corrin/Byleth situation with the alts.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Venus of the Desert Bloom I feel bad for @'ing you, but do you mind lending your expert opinion here? I think we're going in circles...

 

[Janx_uwu]

"Non issue" in platformers, huh, if the hitboxes of my character were completely off in a platformer, I think I would have some trouble with the game. Regardless that doesn't matter, cause while I'm not going to get into your technical jargon, I've said multiple times before, they play identically in their own game, so I don't see why it would be such a big deal to translate that to a platform fighter.

His main distinguishing factor, is having a completely different skeleton and height which violates your own fantasies on inaccurate hitboxes. "Literally the same model" except for that being half the size of Mario, which is a pretty big difference compared to any differences between Crash and Coco, at least their the same height.

Several echos and clones have altered animations in Smash already. Doesn't stop them from being echos.

Okay I hate to be taking sides here but the point of an Echo fighter is to reuse assets to make new characters with as little resources spent as possible. Wario is basically saying that, since Coco has several distinct factors that force differentiating animation from Crash (constituted both from her proportions and in-series animation differences), the development team would have to go in and make so many individual changes to the point where it's basically like making a brand new character. At that point, why are you even adding Coco? I love her as a concept, but she just doesn't work as an Echo for the reasons above.

Meanwhile, if the dev team decided to add Small Mario (who, I should make clear, I don't particularly love as a choice for the final echo pack), all they would need to change is the length of his skeleton and model's height and limb length as well as downscaling hitboxes. Very little to no change in animation would be necessary, other than perhaps giving his hair some physics. Then boom! New character, same moveset, but enough reason to choose him over Mario (hurtbox, hitboxes, and stats). And it didn't require a ton of work in the animation department, whereas Coco would need so many new resources that at that point, you might as well just make her a unique fighter.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Okay I hate to be taking sides here but the point of an Echo fighter is to reuse assets to make new characters with as little resources spent as possible. Wario is basically saying that, since Coco has several distinct factors that force differentiating animation from Crash (constituted both from her proportions and in-series animation differences), the development team would have to go in and make so many individual changes to the point where it's basically like making a brand new character. At that point, why are you even adding Coco? I love her as a concept, but she just doesn't work as an Echo for the reasons above.

Meanwhile, if the dev team decided to add Small Mario (who, I should make clear, I don't particularly love as a choice for the final echo pack), all they would need to change is the length of his skeleton and model's height and limb length as well as downscaling hitboxes. Very little to no change in animation would be necessary, other than perhaps giving his hair some physics. Then boom! New character, same moveset, but enough reason to choose him over Mario (hurtbox, hitboxes, and stats). And it didn't require a ton of work in the animation department, whereas Coco would need so many new resources that at that point, you might as well just make her a unique fighter.

Think your heavily overexaggerating those "so many individual changes". A brand new character that functionally plays exactly the same as the original character in their original canon game feels like it works perfectly as an echo. And like I've stated before, numerous clones and echos both in Ultimate and Infinite, have had different and altered animations. Didn't stop them before.

 

[Janx_uwu]

Think your heavily overexaggerating those "so many individual changes". A brand new character that functionally plays exactly the same as the original character in their original canon game feels like it works perfectly as an echo. And like I've stated before, numerous clones and echos both in Ultimate and Infinite, have had different and altered animations. Didn't stop them before.

No, I mean like, it's a lot. You have to adjust every single animation simply because Coco has a neck, whereas Crash has this weird armadillo-type hump shape. Not a couple or a few like most echo fighters, every single one. And it doesn't stop there, because a lot of Crash's and Coco's moves in their series have completely different animations, which you would have to build from the ground up in Ultimate.

And on the topic of characters playing exactly like each other in the canon game...since when has Mario played differently with or without a power-up?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

No, I mean like, it's a lot. You have to adjust every single animation simply because Coco has a neck, whereas Crash has this weird armadillo-type hump shape. Not a couple or a few like most echo fighters, every single one. And it doesn't stop there, because a lot of Crash's and Coco's moves in their series have completely different animations, which you would have to build from the ground up in Ultimate.

And on the topic of characters playing exactly like each other in the canon game...since when has Mario played differently with or without a power-up?

You have to adjust every single animation

No, I don't think you would. I've seen their animations in the original games where they play identically, and they share most of the major animations. The neck really does not make that much of a difference as you're making it to be, and again, you seem to be extremely overexaggerating the work it would take for the echo.

I think at this point we're just living in alternate realities, so I'll agree to disagree.

 

[Justoneguyhere1999]

I think I'll keep Classic Sonic for now unless I have to change it.

He'll have a moveset almost just like Sonic's moveset in smash which isn't all that special to begin with anyways. If I were to take creative libraries, he can potentially have the same moves and abililes as his Modern self since they are technically the same character. They'll just be mini-versions of those attacks since he'll just only begun to learn them.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I’m sorry. I don’t have much time to type but this but having browsed over the arguments…

Small Mario and Classic Sonic are ineligible due to not being able to fit into the dimensions that is what we have for Mario and Sonic. The dimensions are just two diverse and having Small Mario be the same dimensions as Mario goes against the Echo logic. Classic Sonic is also ineligible but for squattier reasons.

Coco is also ineligible due to similar arguments but also fundamental differences in character design. I do know we were lax with Jin and Rock but at least there design elements worked along with their base character. Crash and Coco don’t share in this similarity despite playing similar in the Crash games.

Does echo fighters always need to have the same exact body proportions as the original? I think Classic Sonic could still work. I am assuming Sonic's moveset didn't change all that much here. So Classic Sonic can still have a similar moveset

Altough I guess I can change it to just Zack Fair.

Yes, that is why they are Echo fighters.

I think limiting echoes to characters with the same skeleton is dumb, very dumb, echoes should be clones with enough differences to guarantee that someone might use them over the original, but still being almost the same
Anyways.
View attachment 363535
Big Boss (Without the cigarette) - Snake Echo
I just want more Metal Gear in Smash, he's also quite beloved and apparently him and Raiden are decently requested as fighters.

But that’s the driving logic behind Echo fighters. They are clones with a fancy name. Every echo fighters has had the same skeleton as their base fighter. The way you described Echoes was largely inaccurate.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Funny how we went from having a poll for adding Coco as an echo shortly after Crash got in, to now her somehow being ineligible because of a couple of flimsy arguments from a tiny portion of the thread. I'll try to find another submission but I strongly disagree with the logic.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Dont wanting to jump into the whole thing but idk what does the support thread means with this, they are different projects lead by different people.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Birdo (Echo of Yoshi)

Birdo would be an echo of Yoshi, though Yoshi is closely linked to the Mario series, he technically represents his own series, which would make her a cross series echo. Birdo is heavily associated with him in spin offs and shares many of his attributes, thus making her a great choice to be his echo.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Funny how we went from having a poll for adding Coco as an echo shortly after Crash got in, to now her somehow being ineligible because of a couple of flimsy arguments from a tiny portion of the thread. I'll try to find another submission but I strongly disagree with the logic.

It's literally not an argument from a few people, it is literally how echoes are made in the actual Smash games. Every echo fighter has the exact same skeleton as their base fighter. Having a few different moves isn't the problem, it's the fact they are literally designed to primarily reuse animations.

Melee's clone characters aren't echo fighters because they don't have the same skeleton in all cases. You could argue that Falco, Roy, and Doc are, maybe stretching a bit including Ganon, but Young Link and Pichu literally are not echoes because they don't share the same skeleton. Same thing with Toon Link in Brawl.

 

[Justoneguyhere1999]

Edited my post for Zack Fair from FF7

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

In which case, I'll resub The Amazon

The Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch
Pit and ROB
Little Mac and Duck Hunt
Uhhh... K. Rool and Banjo??
Takamaru and...

The Amazon Bites Back! (Pro Wrestling)

The Amazon would be Incineroar's echo fighter, a swamp monster heel with an irresistsble appetite for victory! Despite being from a different series, none of Incineroar's moves would be that OOC for The Amazon as he doesn't use any cat-themed moves and his few fire moves could be rethemed to noxious swamp gasses. The Amazon would follow the pre-SSBU tradition of quirky retros being saved for last while more serious and popular retros show up first. The Amazon's Piranha Bite and Outlaw Choke signature moves don't exactly have equivalents in Incineroar, so Amazon would likely be more on the Chrom side than Dark Samus.

While maybe not popular to today's Nintendo fandom, The Amazon is a beloved character to 80s kids and wrestling-crazy gamers. Homebrew action figures of Pro Wrestling's lineup are not at all an uncommon sight in custom wrestling toy communities, and seeing this notorious heel bite back - especially in a fight with Little Mac - would make the Smashers of Gen X very pleased. Now, those "Literally WHO?" responses from the Wii generation? He is a heel, that's what he wants.

We could portray The Amazon as a guy in a suit, but I personally prefer to have him as a real, oozing swamp creature

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

Liquid Snake (Echo of Snake)

Easily one of the most popular villains in gaming, Liquid is the twin brother of Solid Snake and given how most of snakes moveset is based on military equipment it wouldn’t be off for liquid’s moveset to be the same as him. Plus, as the first third party series in smash metal gear more than deserves some more representation.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Dry Bowser
Super Mario

View attachment 362003​

I don't know why but I have always been drawn to Dry Bowser being an echo fighter. I thought that when Echo fighters were first announced, he was a shoe in. Now, Bowser would be a tad bit faster than Bowser but lacking the definitive firepower that makes Bowser Bowser but, like mentioned above, it would be entirely noticeable unless you lab with Dry Bowser a bit. The huge differences between Bowser ad Dry Bowser is:

• 
  
• The voice
• Use of blue flames for fire attacks
• Up Special freezes opponents like Giga Bowser
• Down Special causes purple flames to shoot up when impacting the ground
• Getting hit creates bone cracking sounds

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

There were a lot of submissions that got changed out so I want to doulbe check before starting voting.

First party submission:

Black Shadow (F-Zero)
View attachment 363509​

Black Shadow is one of playable characters from Nintendo's racing game series F-Zero and he is a cold-blooded king of evil feared by all. He is wanted by the Galactic Federation, yet he often shows up at the Extraterritorial F-Zero circuits as if they are his own.
He is one of popular F-zero bad guys and he is an obvious choice for a F-zero character in smash (especially as an echo fighter).

He would be Capt. Falcon's heavier clone and he could have slower, but stronger attacks than Falcon himself. Also he would have different side special called "Bull charge" and he could charge at opponents very fast.

I think he is worth enough to join smash, since F-Zero hasn't got a rep in this series since Smash 64 and his inclusion would make F-Zero fans happy.

View attachment 363511
Something HILARIOUS and unexpected would be going green with GOOIGI who would obviously be an echo fighter of Mario. Just kidding, Luigi! I really liked Luigi's Mansion 3 and I think the comparisons are really obvious. I think Luigi's Mansion is just kinda like really cool and Gooigi would be really hilarious just having garbled versions of Luigi's voicelines and funny differences like being weak to water and having even more fluid animations due to being a big goober.

Alrighty, then!

THIRD-PARTY ECHO SUBMISSION: MARISA KIRISAME (REIMU ECHO)

Marisa Kirisame is the second of the main protagonists of the video game franchise, Touhou Project. The Ken to Reimu’s Ryu, Marisa is a character who takes a more western aesthetic compared to Reimu’s eastern. She’s an outgoing and casual individual who wears her heart on her sleeve. The contrast between the two even goes down to their gameplay in the series: Reimu likes to play a lot more defensively while Marisa is more aggressive. Reimu likes to use homing projectiles while Marisa likes to shoot straight.

Zack Fair (Echo Fighter of Cloud Strife)

One of the most central characters in FF7 and the main protag of FF7 Crisis Core. He is the man whom Cloud carried his legacy for and can offer his own brand of Buster Sword moves of his own. In Smash, he can finally fight alongside with Cloud and get some more payback with Sephiroth.

I submit Demise as an Echo Fighter for Ganondorf and Proto Man as an Echo Fighter for Mega Man. Would incluye imahes later.

Final Echo Fighter Pack Character: Roll (Mega Man)

Original artist's post can be found here.

Roll is an iconic character from the Mega Man franchise. Daughter to Dr. Light and sister to the titular Rock, she's never quite on the front lines in the main series, but lends a helping hand whenever possible. She's a playable character in Marvel Vs Capcom, where she can be seen using her own Mega Buster for attacks, and her proportions are near equal to Rock's, meaning she can absolutely fit as his echo fighter. Having Roll echo Rock could also lead to her using different, but functionally identical, boss weapons from throughout the Classic games. Stuff like using Ninja Man's ninja star for her Neutral B (instead of Metal Man's metal blade) or Jewel Man's jewel satellite as her Down B (instead of Wood Man's leaf shield).

Including Roll also works as her "redemption arc". She was a playable character in the first Marvel Vs Capcom, though she was specifically a joke inclusion, being so terrible that people gave her the "Roll Tier" at the very bottom of tier lists. Even when Dan Hibiki was added in MvC2, he was ranked higher than her. When you're lower on the tier list than Dan ****ing Hibiki, it's impressive how competitively unviable you are. Including Roll as an echo fighter of a high-tier character would be really cool, notably because it would be her first ever chance at being good in an FGC role. (see what i did there?)

So yeah. While a lot of other picks would be absolutely rockin, I think this one's worth rollin out in the final echo pack.

#ROLLSWEEP

Really busy so I can't write up right now

I submit Apollo Justice

I think limiting echoes to characters with the same skeleton is dumb, very dumb, echoes should be clones with enough differences to guarantee that someone might use them over the original, but still being almost the same
Anyways.
View attachment 363535
Big Boss (Without the cigarette) - Snake Echo
I just want more Metal Gear in Smash, he's also quite beloved and apparently him and Raiden are decently requested as fighters.

Yeah I'm submitting Roxas/Xion again

Birdo (Echo of Yoshi)

Birdo would be an echo of Yoshi, though Yoshi is closely linked to the Mario series, he technically represents his own series, which would make her a cross series echo. Birdo is heavily associated with him in spin offs and shares many of his attributes, thus making her a great choice to be his echo.

In which case, I'll resub The Amazon

Liquid Snake (Echo of Snake)

Easily one of the most popular villains in gaming, Liquid is the twin brother of Solid Snake and given how most of snakes moveset is based on military equipment it wouldn’t be off for liquid’s moveset to be the same as him. Plus, as the first third party series in smash metal gear more than deserves some more representation.

We gots:

• Black Shadow
• Gooigi
• Marisa Kirsame
• Zack Fair
• Demise
• Roll
• Apollo Justice
• Big Boss
• Roxas/Xion
• Birdo
• Amazon
• Liquid Snake
• Dry Bowser

Does that look about right?

 

[Justoneguyhere1999]

Yeah looks about right

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Here is our voting link!

I had to remove Apollo Justice as I had forgotten that echoes were purely for launch newcomers. Not Dlc. Sorry Jomosensual

LONK VOTE HERE

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Lonk, heheheh

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I have some time and we have a good number of votes with two clear winners!

Name	3 Points	2 Points	1 Point	Total
Black Shadow	4 (12)	3 (6)	2	20
Gooigi	0	0	2	2
Marisa Kirisame	2 (6)	1 (2)	1	9
Zack Fair	0	1 (2)	3	5
Demise	0	0	2	2
Roll	4 (12)	2 (4)	2	21
Big Boss	2 (6)	5 (10)	0	16
Roxas	2 (6)	2 (4)	0	10
Birdo	0	0	2	2
Amazon	2 (6)	1 (2)	2	10
Liquid Snake	0	0	2	2
Mienshao	0	1 (2)	0	2
Dry Bowser	1 (3)	2 (4)	0	6

The following characters will appear as our last ECHO fighter bundle!

Spoiler

Black Shadow and Roll makes uo our last bundle! Kind of fitting consdiering Black Shadow's continued support as an Echo fighter but not yet chinching victory while Roll is the Echo fighter from the first third party character for Smash 4. We will be doing a Black Shadow-themed job in a little bit.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

Lonk, heheheh

A Lonk to the Pennsylvania