Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Tesh]

You mean the way Smashville is probably not a stage where every character can perform well?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It really annoys me that the go-to strategy against zero suit Samus mains is to throw away the pieces because the zss will know how to use them better than you

I mean how lazy is that

Maybe it's because their character can't use them as well as ZSS can

 

[Tesh]

you know jebus, I've been reading your posts all day and wondering why you keep posting that 2010 combo video like its relevant to the discussion....

I just noticed the thin line that indicates its your sig

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I say every stage that forces a player to avoid random hazards should be banned. In a perfect game, the player who is forced to avoid hazards is put at a disadvantage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Which is why mobility is an important factor in liberal stage play.

@Tesh: Depends on what do you mean for that, Frigate is bad for characters who can't effectively approach offstage, Smashville can be good or bad for some characters at specific parts of the match.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Mobility helps but not always. Lets assume that two players that are frame perfect move close enough to each other so they can react to any attack the other player throws at them. If Halberd's claw forces someone to perfect shield it or jump away and airdodge, it puts them at a disadvantage. Same thing with Brinstar's rising lava

 

[ぱみゅ]

If both are frame perfect, the one with the better mobility can see something coming (c'mon, it's Brawl, it's slow enough to pay attention to everything) and move away to get the time to avoid the stage and not have the opponent to take advantage.
Alternatively, at least in the case of Halberd and Brinstar, both can see the hazard coming, plan in which moment to avoid it or use it and buffer their inputs accordingly.


...
God, assuming Frame Perfect Play sounds even dumber than I thought I was.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Every stage apart from Battlefield and Final Destination is random, right?

Jebus: Meta Knight with an item piece is scarier than ZSS is, yet MK mains throw the pieces away all the time. Besides, when you have a piece in your hand it doesn't matter how much better ZSS might be at using it, the chance of her getting it after you've used it doesn't out-weigh the potential advantage you can gain from using it instead of throwing it away.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Every stage apart from Battlefield and Final Destination is random, right?

Jebus: Meta Knight with an item piece is scarier than ZSS is, yet MK mains throw the pieces away all the time. Besides, when you have a piece in your hand it doesn't matter how much better ZSS might be at using it, the chance of her getting it after you've used it doesn't out-weigh the potential advantage you can gain from using it instead of throwing it away.

Yes, but most legal stages don't force players to react to a hazard onstage.

MK might be good with items but the way I see it, if your opponents suck with items, that must mean that you must also suck at playing against an opponent who is good at playing with items. All the ZSS has to do is get better at playing against a player who knows how to play with items. In the end, ZSS will always come out on top since the peices always start out in front of her

@Kyokoro, The opponent also has enough time to run (most characters running speeds are as fast or faster than most characters air speeds) and react to the air dodge. Why should a player put himself at risk because the stage decided to target him instead of the opponent?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why are you putting in the "on-stage" stipulation, what relevance does the hazard's position have?

I agree, ZSS starting with the items and having more experience with them is an advantage. Which is why you don't just charge into ZSS when she is in control of all 3 (cough M2K cough). But when you get the chance to pick one up, the advantage of them having spawned near her means nothing - it comes down to whether you can get a big enough advantage with this one piece to offset the risk of ZSS reclaiming it and trying to do the same thing; and in almost every situation, you can get that big advantage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

because you can avoid offstage hazards by staying on stage.

what do you do if she doesn't just mindlessly throw them at you (cough Salem cough)?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Offstage isn't necessarily a disadvantageous position though.

If she doesn't mindlessly throw them at you (i.e. any good ZSS don't give Salem more credit than he deserves) then you are under no pressure to approach - her only approach while maintaining control of an item(s) isn't very diverse.

If she plays so well with the items that you never get a chance to pick one up, then you'll never get the chance to throw the piece away anyway, so it doesn't matter for this discussion.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yes Jebus, that's the point.
Mobility becomes important to avoid both the hazard and the opponent.
If you have enough mobility to punish the opponent for trying to dodge (specially if they take a laggy option like Airdodging), you get advantage. There's nothing wrong with that.

btw, your examples are bad to prove your point:
On Halberd you never know which player will the Claw attack. From what I've seen, normally both would try to get enough room to avoid it, or the attacked player will try to react and PS.
On Brinstar both players will be equally affected by a not too random acid, so it all comes to which one is better to take advantage of the single avaliable platform and other limitations you get there at certain times.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Offstage isn't necessarily a disadvantageous position though.

If she doesn't mindlessly throw them at you (i.e. any good ZSS don't give Salem more credit than he deserves) then you are under no pressure to approach - her only approach while maintaining control of an item(s) isn't very diverse.

If she plays so well with the items that you never get a chance to pick one up, then you'll never get the chance to throw the piece away anyway, so it doesn't matter for this discussion.

Yes it is. Your options are way more limited.

Most players would react to an item d-throw in the same way they would react to an item f-throw. If she moves closer to you while also moving her items. eventually you are going to have to approach

@Kyokoro, Perfect play is never going to happen so I'll stop arguing. all I have to say about allowing stage randomness is this. If you are Ok with a stage killing you when you unplug both controllers at the beginning of the match, then go for it. All the air mobility in the world won't guarantee that you won't ever get hit by random stage hazards.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Quite often I would opt to go off-stage with MK/Puff other characters rather than staying onstage. It's certainly a worse option most of the time, but it would need to be a worse option 100% of the time for your criteria to make sense

"If she moves closer to you while also moving her items. eventually you are going to have to approach" - That's such a simplistic way of looking at it. ZSS isn't an unstoppable wall of moving hitboxes while she's got the pieces, she's trading in several good options for a single very strong option that you can consistently counter.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What does that have to do with hazards though?

I never said she was an unstoppable wall of moving hitboxes. The thing is there is always something the other player can do. Maybe the MKs could have played better against Salem, but there is nothing stopping Salem from choosing better options to counter those character's better options in those situations. I think that is what you and most players don't get

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I never said that you said that she was an unstoppable wall of moving hitboxes. Doesn't that make you feel silly?

And I definitely get that, but the problems I'm pointing out with people vs. ZSS (like throwing away the pieces) aren't things that Salem can just adjust to, ZSS isn't good enough for that. They are clear weaknesses in her character design that were not being exploited at APEX, I'm not saying that M2K (for example) should've been playing better than Salem - I'm saying he should've been playing as good as Salem and that should've been enough.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Why is throwing away the pieces not a good option? MK loses all his tilts, smashes and aerials while holding an item. ZSS does't really care about losing those options other than the aerials and d-smash. Maybe M2K can get better at playing with items, but I think he's better off finding better ways to get rid of ZSS's items.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1. Because the advantage you can get from throwing an armour piece > the advantage you can get from using your tilts.
2. Because you should be camping with the piece, not playing how you normally would but with a piece randomly in your hands. If ZSS comes close to you and you're holding it; drop it and fight her off.

With MK, I'd usually juggle the item piece with short hops and down throws until I see a good time to throw it directly at ZSS, I'd do that and then follow the item piece with aggression.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

ZSS is better off with an item in her hand than MK is though and if MK is holding an item, then ZSS can still get a hold of that item

 

[rurounikenshin]

Can someone please tell me what stages are not banned currently?

 

[-LzR-]

Final Destination

 

[NickRiddle]

ZSS is NOT better than MK with an item.
MK has Shuttle Loop and nado while holding an item.
That's fucing broken.

 

[Tesh]

Well Suit pieces are a projectile that hits with that same godly trajectory so...

+any technical player can do almost anything with an item with good zdrop/catch and dribbling.

 

[hell-dew]

IMO i just see Tossing the pieces away as a caution thing. although i do agree people need to stop tossing the pieces and learn what to do with them. But in general though most people probably haven't practiced dealing with suit pieces nearly as much as a ZSS player has where shes using them every single match. Fighting a character directly against their strong points IMO generally isnt a good idea and considering the risk reward factor at a tourney. If your confidant you can overcome it then sure but i think in the whole M2K Vs salem fight, M2k realized losing that battle isnt worth it .

 

[WindMajor]

Can someone please tell me what stages are not banned currently?

http://www.apex-series.com/rules/brawl/

 

[Pheta Ray]

I'm for discussing the legitimacy of Lylat Cruise, and whether or not it should be considered as a legal stage.

Pros of Lylat:
1. No hazards
2. Comfortable blast zones for all characters
3. Platforms that don't move

Cons of Lylat:
1. Impossibly annoying stage tilts
2. Projectile camping from the tilted sides
3. Maneuverability restricted to some characters

In my opinion Lylat is a deplorable stage based on the stage tilts alone. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks this, I'm pretty sure there are people out there who disagree with it. I'm personally against it, and I'd like to see another stage replace Lylat on the legal stage list.

 

[-LzR-]

Wow just wow. Learn to play nub.

 

[NickRiddle]

YI:B and SV should be banned before Lylat.

 

[Raziek]

Literally the worst reasoning.

 

[Pheta Ray]

Like I said, people won't agree and that's fine. I can respect those opinions. At least Nick had class with his response, though.

 

[Raziek]

He was just as crass as we were, you just didn't realize it because apparently the idea of banning Smashville also seems reasonable to you.

It's just that... we have dealt with arguments like this so many times, and this is literally the absolute worst line of reasoning.

Like, the tilting? Really? I'll humor you.

Why does the tilt make the stage banworthy?

Why makes the projectile camping so different than MK platforming camping on BF or SV?

How is maneuverability restricted and why is that banworthy?

You don't elaborate on any of your points at all, so we didn't elaborate in our responses.

 

[NickRiddle]

Smashville is a ****ty stage though.

 

[Raziek]

Can it Nick. >:[

 

[WindMajor]

There are more time outs in Smashville than in any other stage.

 

[NickRiddle]

It's also almost always the first stage.
SV is played in a set more often than MK is.

 

[Delta-cod]

I strike SV first just to mess with people.

 

[Pheta Ray]

Alright, I'll admit that my previous post was awful. Blow taken, I learned from it, moving on.

I agree with Nick Riddle on Smashville and Delta-cod has a good idea. I do notice that a lot of people take SV first and foremost when I play them in sets. I don't really understand why, it's not all that great of a stage, more dynamic and exciting stages are out there.

In all honesty I never really liked Smashville; it seemed too flat and boring to play on.

 

[infiniteV115]

You know it's actually refreshing to hear someone say they think flat stages are boring

 

[WindMajor]

can we legalize norfair now??? and when people dont like it we can tell them to stage ban it just like how we do it for smashville