Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Grim Tuesday]

Japes and Norfair should be the first two. Pirate ship we might be able to make a case for if they end up banning rudder/rock stalling.

Those tactics don't need to be banned, and allowing the stage but banning them brings up a few double standards. Why don't we legalize Wario Ware but make it so that winning microgames is banned?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Those tactics don't need to be banned, and allowing the stage but banning them brings up a few double standards. Why don't we legalize Wario Ware but make it so that winning microgames is banned?

Unreasonable to do so. As in, pragmatically speaking, it fails.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Could you elaborate on that at all?

Just make it so that a player who wins a micro-game has to instantly KO themselves. Why is that any more unreasonable to enforce than well... any other rule in our rule-set?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Could you elaborate on that at all?

Just make it so that a player who wins a micro-game has to instantly KO themselves. Why is that any more unreasonable to enforce than well... any other rule in our rule-set?

Forgetting the microgames that deal damage, that can kill starting around 80%, that you can only fail by getting hit by them?

Rudder camping is easily identified, easily intervened in, and is just like any other stalling rule. Banning the winning of Microgames is like saying "Snake can't use his utilt". Oh wait...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What is wrong, in theory or in practice, about players having to hurt themselves?

 

[ぱみゅ]

That is not enforceable?
Players wouldn't want to hurt themselves that way...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Um... herp?

Of course they don't want to, what does that have to do with enforceability? They have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Losing a stock because you won the micro-game, or getting damaged by the microgame.

Situations like this already exist in PvP combat.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I might be ok with Pirate ship, assuming rudder camping is banned under stalling clause, and Japes since I've listened to some cases that might support it but it needs to be proven to me for some other worries I have.

Norfair is still under my, love this stage but I think it's broken, area.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What is everyone's problem with Rudder camping?

In all my experiences, the ship will KO the camper at least once every match, unless they somehow predict the ship's teetering.

 

[Ghostbone]

Rudder Camping is an extreme risk low reward tactic.

Really it's not broken.

I've tried to win using it and it's just not effective.

 

[T-block]

Nobody who knows what they're talking about complains about Falco on Japes anymore.

Some complain about DK messing around in the water with his up-b, but I've never seen proof.

MK IS a concern though.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Um... herp?

Of course they don't want to, what does that have to do with enforceability? They have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Losing a stock because you won the micro-game, or getting damaged by the microgame.

Situations like this already exist in PvP combat.

Hey grim?



Shut. Up.




You know, there's a reason I've started lumping you in with Inui and Jebus (usually as an example for "liberal bias gone wrong". If you honestly cannot see the problem with what you are proposing, or worse, if you cannot see the difference between banning a problematic, semi-broken stalling tactic that is akin to sonic's homing stall in that it is a problem in many matchups, and forcing players to get hit by stage hazards via the rules, then I don't know what to say. You've officially become "not worth debating" by means of massive stupidity.

 

[WindMajor]

BPC is gonna pull a Xyro on Grim, GGs.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Settle BPC.

What is everyone's problem with Rudder camping?

In all my experiences, the ship will KO the camper at least once every match, unless they somehow predict the ship's teetering.

It's a pattern.

And they can tell when the ship will change based on the King's ship in the rear.

 

[Ghostbone]

It's really hard to avoid getting spiked when you don't actually know exactly where your character is under the rudder, and you have to keep moving backwards and forwards to avoid getting spiked or popping out.

Besides the only important character that can't stop it is falco, you take damage up to 150, and you're forced out every 1-2 minutes (and when you're forced out you're at kill percents).

The problem with Pirate Ship would be water camping in general.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What is the pattern for the ship tilting, Ryu?

BPC, we just have different philosophies. While I remain completely objective in everything theory-wise (like you used to), you take a more pragmatic approach.

As an example of this, yes, I see no objective difference in forcing players to not use a powerful defensive option that (arguably) breaks a stage (Pirate Ship) and not using a powerful offensive option that breaks a stage (WarioWare). The rules both force players into unfavourable positions (Not getting a reward/being hit by hazards and not being allowed to camp under the rudder). There is no reason to differentiate between them just because the WarioWare rule would damage your %, as % isn't the only way a player can be damaged.

I have the same stance on infinites and ledge-grab limits, as you know.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The ship moving backwards and forwards isn't random it's a pattern last I checked so it's just keeping a motion rhythm, however the stage forcing you to get out from under the ship is, since what transformations and when they occur are random outside of the King's ship telling you one will happen.

 

[T-block]

Wait, GT, are you for or against Picto?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wait, GT, are you for or against Picto?

I am against Picto.

Ryu, do you know if anyone on the boards has recorded the exact pattern for the ship's tilting? Sounds interesting...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What is the pattern for the ship tilting, Ryu?

BPC, we just have different philosophies. While I remain completely objective in everything theory-wise (like you used to), you take a more pragmatic approach.

As an example of this, yes, I see no objective difference in forcing players to not use a powerful defensive option that (arguably) breaks a stage (Pirate Ship) and not using a powerful offensive option that breaks a stage (WarioWare). The rules both force players into unfavourable positions (Not getting a reward/being hit by hazards and not being allowed to camp under the rudder). There is no reason to differentiate between them just because the WarioWare rule would damage your %, as % isn't the only way a player can be damaged.

I have the same stance on infinites and ledge-grab limits, as you know.

Didn't orion prove that your standpoint makes banning any non-random stage a total no-no? As in, you kinda have to have temple legal?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

But you can just ban it.

 

[WindMajor]

Temple would be an exception though because in Temple, there truly is just one solution to that stage, and that's Metaknight. It's to the point that not picking Metaknight would be silly.

His stalling techniques degenerate Temple into just one character, and to a single degenerate tactic (stalling), which is obviously bad, and means that the stage just isn't suitable for competitive play.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Didn't orion prove that your standpoint makes banning any non-random stage a total no-no? As in, you kinda have to have temple legal?

Orion's point in that discussion was flawed as hell, I stopped responding to it because it wasn't important to the topic at hand iirc.

Going by memory...
Grim: There is no reason to pick any character other than the fastest character on Temple.
Orion: Actually, x could probably catch y, and z could catch y. So there is more than one viable character on Temple.
Grim: Oh, yeah

Which DOESN'T refute the fact that Temple is uncompetitive due to removing so much depth from the game that competition is pointless (it is too easy to reach the top of the meta-game and it would be impossible to determine the better player in a Bo3, 5 or 7 set unless there was a MASSIVE skill difference between the players).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No, it had a little more to do orion demonstrating that depth was present in temple. >.>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I highly doubt it's possible to prove there is competitive depth on Temple.

The game is as deep as a normal game until someone gets hit, at which point the player with the more mobile character wins simply by running away using one of the three separate circles.

 

[T-block]

Then from the completely objective standpoint that you claim to be capable of taking, what's the difference between YI and Picto?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Due to the isolation of Yoshi's Island's randomness (two positions, only one of which will likely matter at any given time, and only one random event that can occur), I believe it is possible for players to simply expect the Support Ghost to appear at all times and thus plan around it. Because of this, the randomness shouldn't interfere with results at the highest achievable level of play.

Pictochat's randomness, however, affects the entire stage in many different ways. Even at the highest achievable level of play, you can still get screwed over by randomness.

That's the difference.

 

[Tesh]

Forgetting the microgames that deal damage, that can kill starting around 80%, that you can only fail by getting hit by them?

Rudder camping is easily identified, easily intervened in, and is just like any other stalling rule. Banning the winning of Microgames is like saying "Snake can't use his utilt". Oh wait...

Actually I'm pretty sure you CAN fail most microgames without getting hurt. Shielding a damaging microgame won't give you the win if you were instructed to dodge or avoid it. I think the giant man with the sledgehammer (grounds you) is the only one you can't shield.


I really feel pirate ship is a much different story though. Unlike microgames, its 99.9% impossible for your opponent to force you into the perfect spot under the ship and then KEEP you there long enough for it to be considered stalling. Its also nearly impossible to accidentally stall there for a long time. Pirate Ship seems a bit more viable to me compared to Norfair and Japes because other than the spots under the rock and ship, it doesn't appear to be a massive camp fest easily abused by metaknight. Though, the top platform on the mast of the ship could make air camping a paradise.

 

[T-block]

Shouldn't interfere with results? I completely disagree.

Sheik manages to take Marth's double jump with a f-air at low percents. His up-b won't make it back to the edge, so he aims for the platform. Call this point A. Scenario 1: the platform does not save him - he loses the stock. Scenario 2: the platform saves him - Sheik is obviously prepared for this, so she.... does what? Sheik can not guarantee taking Marth's stock anymore, no matter what she does. From point A, what is the difference between scenario 1 and scenario 2? Whether the platform decides to appear in that spot at that point in time, which is completely random.

Someone else brought up the scenario of two characters with poor recoveries trading blows and flying to opposite blast zones. Maybe they both use their double jump and clash aerials, so they're off-stage with only their up-b. Both characters can make it to where the platform rises, but no further. It saves one, but not the other.

Even in high percent situations, if the recoverer can only make it to the platform, and the platform saves him, all he has to do is hold shield. The platform rises faster than can be reacted to, so the edgeguarder must attack at the apex of the platform's path, as hoping to land a hit while it is rising cannot be done consistently. The recoverer holds shield and puts his shield up before the edgeguarder connects with an aerial, and suffers at worst an edge slip. At this point, the stock is no longer guaranteed by any means.

Look at it objectively. Why does it matter that occurrences of randomness are restricted to two locations? In the end, this randomness still has the ability to affect a match drastically. Is there truly an objective reason as to why the platforms are okay, while Pictochat's drawings are not, or does it just feel better to be ****ed with by the platforms?

On the other hand, is it so unrealistic to believe that one day players will be able to expect all drawings at all times and plan around it? There are a finite number of drawings, and a rough timing guideline. You say it's impractical, but that's not obvious to me.

 

[WindMajor]

@Grim: But there is still random in my Brawl, you either have to keep all of it, or none of it. Anything exceptions to that would be subjective. You might feel it's okay since you're objectively following the criteria that you mentioned earlier, but the thing is that your added criteria is subective in nature.



Edit: I'm the slowest typer on the phone ever I swear.

 

[Tesh]

All of it or none of it? So you DO want WarioWare and items on?

There is nothing wrong with reducing some of the most intrusive things. Just because MK's dtilt MIGHT trip sometimes, doesn't mean we should open the floodgates and make everyone as random as the game allows.

 

[MK26]

T-block: that post almost convinced me that YI should be banned...

but, as tesh said, there is random in brawl. If I go for a dair-fsmash as kirby and trip my opponent, I could get a kill, but have no chance whatsoever if he doesnt. If I'm a recovering Luigi knocked out of my double jump, getting a misfire could save my life or prevent an edgeguard opportunity (alternatively, a misfire at the wrong time could actually prevent me from recovering!). Smashville's platform could prevent an early gimp if it starts in the right place. Whether rock or grass is chosen near the end of a game on PS1 could vastly change my chance of timing my opponent out. Olimar on Frigate.

Brawl has random elements. Some can cause stock losses. Legalizing or banning such randomness is by necessity a subjective assessment. imo pictochat crosses that line, for reasons ive stated elsewhere, while yi brawl does not

 

[T-block]

lol MK26... you don't have to explain to me that there is randomness in Brawl that we accept.

I brought this up again since GT seems to want to view things on a fundamental level, so I asked him what the difference is, fundamentally, between YI and Picto, when both can affect stock counts.

But since you're here, almost convincing you that YI should be banned is exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to do. This idea of randomness is really called into question when we examine YI vs. Pictochat. You say that where we draw the line for randomness is a subjective assessment, and I agree. How much is acceptable is subjective and cannot be defined non-arbitrarily. However, how much is still vague. What aspects of randomness are we examining? Are we looking at how drastic the effect could be? Are we looking at how often random events happen? Or do we just look at the overall effect on a match in general? Perhaps a mix of all of these? Does one have more weight than the others? You can dismiss randomness discussion as subjective, but don't you think these questions are worth looking into?

 

[MK26]

I was more trying to convince myself lol

I personally think that the point where we ban a stage is the point where, among two players of significantly different skill levels but equal stage knowledge, it's unreasonable to expect the more skilled player to win most of the matches they have. On YI, a high-level player with knowledge of the platforms should probably be able to mitigate their effect on the match, no matter how much his mid-level opponent tries to abuse them. Perhaps he'll avoid going for gimps, and maybe he'll use them himself, but he'll prevent the randomness from turning the tide of battle.

On Picto, on the other hand, even with a fair amount of stage knowledge there are a significant number of things out of your control ("he grabbed me! please dont be missiles please dont be missiles please dont be missiles") that will, over the course of a series of matches, cause the mid-level player to win some that he should lose. Heck, it might even butcher a game or two that he had in the bag. Think of it like a standard deviation - the high-level player will probably still win more games and most sets in the long run, but the standard deviation of set counts on Picto will be much higher than, say, YI.

 

[T-block]

I think that's fair.

I also argue that Pictochat gives consistent results (and by consistent I mean the inconsistency is in the same league as YI) given two players who understand how to play the stage, but that's a lot harder to prove =(

 

[MK26]

so...what do we debate now?

 

[Akaku94]

I was going to ask this on the Kirby boards, but since MK26 has lots of kirbys under his name, I'll ask him!

What would you say Kirby's top 3 stages are?

 

[WindMajor]

Whether or not you guys wana help me legalize Japes or not.

 

[Life]

*makes a post about HA stall not being broken*

Discuss

(not to be taken seriously. Espy namesearch gogogo tho.)

Twinkie, I'm a Japes fan. What can I do?

 

[AuraStUrm]

Japes ain't that bad. Let's get on it, then.