~Stage Discussion~ Stage 8: Castle Seige

[ThreeSided]

Yo, ZSS main here... sounds like you guys agree that this is a good snake stage, but I've heard plenty of ZSS' say that you want to CP snake here if RC is banned. Would you concur?

 

[Vorguen]

This is my automatic ban as a Snake main against any character except for maybe Falco in which case I'll ban Japes.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Gone for 8 days.

Going to get this updated with Brinstar in the next few minutes. Taking suggestions after that for the next stage to look at.

 

[Arora]

I've always wondered how snake does on norfair

 

[Underload]

I say we do Luigi's Mansion next.

It's a notorious ROB stage (who's probably our 2nd or 3rd worst matchup?), and there's a lot of trixies that Snake is capable of taking advantage of. Oh, also, you can lure people to the higher floor / ceiling and kill 'em at like 80 percent

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Aren't both of those stages in the ban or ban/CP section?

 

[Underload]

They're both legal where I live.

If you don't want to do either of those stages, then maybe we should discuss Frigate? I see Snakes (see: Bizkit) counterpicking it sometimes.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

They're both legal where I live.

If you don't want to do either of those stages, then maybe we should discuss Frigate? I see Snakes (see: Bizkit) counterpicking it sometimes.

Doesn't matter to me. I just thought you all would want to look at stages that are commonly used these days. I mean, Port Town Aero Dive has always been in the CP/Ban section, yet I never here anyone talk about that stage at all. With Norfair and luigi's mansion moved to the same section I thought tournaments stopped using them as much. But whatever. I'll give it little long than draw from a hat between frigate, norfair, and the mansion. Unless another stage gets a vote in the next hour.

Edit: Hat pulled up frigate.

 

[RATED]

I love frigate with Snake , the initial part of the stage is perfect to use C4. the side where there's no edge and the other where's the platform just planting it in one of those place ( where the floor moves and the platform near of the edge) also the other change with the platform in the center is awesome to the granade game. I CP olimars there, lol IDK why but I find it ( maybe its me) but I like this stage against MK . I think is just me.

 

[Bizkit047]

Frigates a good Snake CP stage IMO, but I wouldn't CP it against ROBs and probably not MKs. DDD maybe not as effective, as you risk getting cyhper grabbed too easy during the right part with no edge.. Deff against Olimars and Falcos, or perhaps anyone with a bad recovery too. Hard to see C4 is an instant bonus, tough to see nades + mines. If you really study where the C4 drops to when the stage flips during both transitions it's a godly advantage. And if your opponent isn't aware of how to deal with stage flipping well, it helps. In fact, many people don't seem to realize the stage flashes before it flips so if you are unable to hear the sound (common in tournies) you can get the advantage and hope for a SD on their part xd.

The part with the moving platform can lead to easy tech chasing while it's not level, not to mention the platforms in general can really help. The ceiling isn't too high either, so utilt can KO reasonably well.

Other than CPing a neutral and Halberd, this would be my next CP.

 

[AfroQT]

Its good vs MK because he cant Dair camp you, and its easy to set up shop anywhere on the stage for great camping.

 

[RATED]

Its good vs MK because he cant Dair camp you, and its easy to set up shop anywhere on the stage for great camping.

thanks, so I finally know that I am not crazy or is not just me.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

I love Frigate. It's probably my most chosen CP. Even more then Halberd. Explosives work amazing well here due to the darkness. But if you don't understand how the stage works, you can get ***** really easily by your own explosives, as your mine will flip with the stage, and can land on you if you're not careful.

Sorry, I'd post more but I'm really tired right now.

 

[nevershootme]

Here's one reason why Frigate is good at times (I keep posting, but it's to prove a point)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPJ3t__x8nY

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

pfft lol Great way to get a KO.

Frigate, good stage for Snake. Not his best, but certainly a good pick against a good number of the cast. Tether recoveries come to mind. Ledgeless right side for the first half of the stage is an excellent choice. So that makes it a good pick against ZSS and olimar I believe. It also helps with a great deal of characters. Spacies have no access to a ledge making them targets for the laggy/predictable recoveries. Same can also be said for Shiek, marth and others like that.

If I recall correctly, you are at no risk of some sort of stage mishap (like the one nsm posted) if you are high and in the center of the screen boundaries. The same with the lower right and lower left corners. This is because the stage swings counterclockwise. C4 and mines I believe keep there same coordinates in the switch and simply leave the stage and fall from where they had been stuck in the ground.

The first part of the stage is also prime tech chasing chances. With a large platform on the left, but still narrow enough to follow pretty much all rolls. If the platform that moves on the right side is raised or lowered, the portion under the left platform is easily tech chased. And the same is said for the platform on the right.

For the top/top-mid tier people, I would say that taking Diddy Kong, Falco, ICs, Olimar and ZSS to Frigate would be a good idea. I believe that you want to avoid taking Wario and Rob here. I'm not sure about Marth and MK. Marth could suffer from recovery, but being able to keep Snake offstage easily could lead to stage mishaps if you happen to be recoverying when the stage switches. MK I have no idea at all. I want to think that neither really get any decent advantages over the other.

The second part of the stage is helpful with the dip in the center. You can avoid certain horizontal projectile users here and that aids in camping since you can over come the dips in the stage. The occasional sides popping out can help you alot and be a pain trying to kill others (it always seems to pop out when someone needs it). The sides of the 2nd part are in such way that one can occasionally get snagged, sort of like the PS1 or castle seige sides.

 

[AfroQT]

I like Frigate vs MK, but i dont believe it gives him any advantages other then forcing MK to be up close almost all the time.

The small divet in the stage on the 2nd part of the stage is great for camping. And as crystal said the lack of ledge hurts alot of characters.

 

[etecoon]

I personally like frigate in the MK/Snake matchup from either side, I just like that stage? I think it probably helps MK more because he does still have room to space but you don't have much space to run away and camp, but I love the platform layout on the first phase so much for traps. great personal preference stage anyway there... I like CPing this against space animals, the right side exacerbates their awful recovery options and its size makes it harder for falco to camp

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Thread updated. For those that post here normally you know the drill by now. Taking suggestions for the next stage. I'd personally like to avoid the CP/Ban stages that are in the list that the SBR recommands. Simply because many of those aren't even typically used (Port town aero dive) and others are losing interest so it seems. I cannot remember the last time someone mentioned Luigi's mansion as a viable CP against someone.

P.S. Anyone ever notice how a good Snake stage seems to be a disadvantage stage for Spacies? Maybe they just get CPed by any stage lol

 

[Underload]

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Brinstar
Delfino (moved from S/C)
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise

My vote goes toward either Castle Siege or PS2.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Caslte Seige it is.

 

[ShadowPhoenix951]

1st part of the stage is small, you can get really early kills here.

2nd part of the stage, if you can grab them near the edges, dthrow tech chasing is really easy. They'll almost always roll away from the walk-off. Camping here is somewhat more difficult though, as the statues stop your grenades.

3rd part of the stage is a lot like FD. Just play like you would on FD, and watch the stage's tilt when recovering.

That's all I have for right now.

 

[Bizkit047]

Castle Seige is okay for Snake IMO, but that's about it. Just don't be stupid and counterpick it if you're not prepared for the person to go DDD. I'll split it into phases based on what I've notcied.

1st phase: The lips can ruin a lot of recoveries, use that to your advantage against those chars. C4 is fairly difficult to see, as nades can be. The slant lets nades drop down, so you can be tricky with that. fairly low ceiling allows for early utilt KOs if you can rack up damage fast enough or if you get back to the phase with opponent at high %. The slant allows you to dodge some projectiles easier.

2nd phase: Great part to be sneaky with C4. Plant it while your opponent is distracted OR in between the transition and let it fall and figure out where it is to bait your opponent into it. The pillar things are good and bad depending on the matchup. It helps against Diddy to stop bananas, but stops your camping game too. If you're playing DDD or low % vs Falco, don't be stupid and stay off the ground floor or free stock for opponent. The ceiling from the ground is REALLY high so don't waste an attempted utilt KO that you aren't sure will KO unless on a platform. As said, tech chasing is easier on this phase if you're on the ground. As said, most opponents will roll away from the blast zone when grabbed near there for fear of easy ftilt KO. If not they may just get up attack, so be prepared and punish. Your opponent may try to KO you in a similar way here too, so be careful when close to the blast zone. Don't get out smarted. Definitely the most gimmicky phase.

3rd Phase: As said, treat it as you would FD. Really great for Snake. Super easy to camp. Go for the vertical KO if you can, it's pretty wide.

For the in between phases, just be careful if against DDD or Falco. And be very careful not to be too far left or right, because if you're standing where a platform dissapears, you'll be forced to recover and put you in a bad spot and also double jumping for some reason in this position makes your double jump have barely any height.

That's all I know about this stage xd. I don't counterpick it, I've really only CPed it in doubles. It's only really bad vs DDD, so don't cp a DDD here ever. I'd only cp this if they banned Halberd and are not bad on Frigate and their projectiles are troublesome. Then again, taking Falco here may work if you avoid the CG at low %s on the edge because the first two phases are so easy to avoid laser camping.

 

[Berserker.]

1st part : It's good for Snake although it's too small but it's
good for grenades. You can let the grenade slide to the slant
part. You can put C4 (Down launch) on top of a platform.
It's a great advantage against big targets and characters
like Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Bowser. Snake's up tilt
is also good for this. When an enemy is on top of the
top of the platform, use the up tilt. But Snake can be knocked off
the stage easily because it's small. (Despite him being heavy
but at some percent maybe 50% or above.) Avoid using
Snake's recovery in this part.


2nd part: This is the best part of Snake. There lots of
camp spots. You don't have to use your recovery
since their no falling areas. Snake has a lot of
advantages here. Ducking is useful here for hiding
and sneaking. Camping in this part is important
and useful. Just don't stay at the sides. You might
end up getting grabbed then thrown off stage.


3rd part: This is a good place for Snake too. Grenade stripping
here is the best thing to do. It will roll though the
ground (Best if cooked). Put C4s here is great especially
at the time when the stage is slanting. The
best place to put it is that the tip of the stage.
Use grenade stripping to make it explode but it's
useless against people with controlled
projectiles or stuff.

Overall: It's a good stage for Snake but don't think
that you will win for sure and you have the upper
hand or something. Your battling someone who's
better than you, you're dead or not.

 

[6Mizu]

Sry for being a nub; but wats CQC?

 

[etecoon]

close quarters combat


that thing you do when you aren't spamming nades : D

 

[6Mizu]

TY
i cant believe i didnt think of that -.-

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

OK. The ceiling in the second part of the castle is quite high, so don't expect utilt or uair KOs on this part. You should probably try to KO with bthrow,bair,dair, or nair on the sides instead. The statues can get in the way of all projectiles except for ROB's laser.

Also, hitting the statues affects the stale move queue.
Jab them if you want to refresh your moves.

The platforms are far from each other so don't try to do Mine/C4 platform tricks here.

I honestly think that the second part of the stage is the worst for him than the other two.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Ain't Snake ain't good to fight on platforms cuz many characters can combo him very well like MK, G&W, Mario, Luigi, Ness, and a lot others? I know Snake is beast on RC, I understand that, he's good on Halberd, I know, but I don't like fighting on platforms w/ Snake, go flat on players to win.

 

[lanky_gunner]

Platforms are a perfect way to hide things such as C4 and mines, as well as grenade camping. Plus he can be quite a surprise falling under a platform, as moves like his bair can cover the length of it if an enemy is underneath.

 

[Berserker.]

But C4's are easy to remove by just dodging past them.

 

[Bizkit047]

If C4 were that simplistic to avoid then it wouldn't have a very effective use as part of Snake's moveset. However, that's not the case, so that point is void. If your opponent so much as forgets about the C4 for more than 2 seconds, that could seriously tip the fight in your advantage as C4s can KO very well and rack up major damage for just one. The whole trick is to try to mind game opponents into a C4 trap or snag them with it if they forget. I find most opponents never keep track of it for over 15-20 seconds unless it's very out in the open.

 

[Berserker.]

Oh so you have to make the enemy forget about the C4. But they still know where you put it so how?

 

[SuSa]

After playing many Snake dittos.

It's a lot easier said, then done. When it comes to avoiding mines/C4

They are focused a LOT more on approaching/avoiding ftilt/avoiding grenades to concentrate where the C4/Mine is. If it can't be seen (think blended in, like on Lylat. Or off screen (moving platform on Smashville) they can easily forget about it.

 

[Berserker.]

Is Lylat Cruise banned or counter pick?

 

[Infern Angelis]

CP, sometimes a neutral

 

[Bizkit047]

Like I said, not many players can focus in on a decently placed C4 for its entire life span. Especially if you constantly are moving the C4 around. Placing a C4 down and detonating it next to them 5 seconds later isn't making good use of it. It doesn't take much, especially against Snake of all chars, to forget that a C4 is on the stage. Even Snake players forget about their C4 from time to time.

Unless the C4 is in an obvious place and doesn't blend well with the stage's texture, then it's very easy to forget about it during 20 seconds worth of fighting. And yes, Lylat is a beast stage for ALL of Snake's explosives, as they all blend in near perfect. And in most tournies, it's considered a neutral, though stage striking procedures usually don't let the match end up there.

 

[cycon365]

A good way to take the focus off the C4 and hopefully make them forget about it is to waste a little time setting up a landmine (perhaps when an opponent is off the stage/recovering from last lost stock)

 

[smashkng]

Castle Siege has walk-off edges during the changing and 2nd part of the stage. You can get early kills if you hit them with the punch ftilt near the walk-off edges. More situational, forward smash kills extremely early near walk-off parts of the stage.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Isn't this thread sort of... umm... dead?

 

[Berserker.]

Does that mean we have to make a new stage discussion?