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Squirtleknight is obnoxious obv :012:. - Marth+
- Thread starter VietGeek
- Start date
That totally does not work.
What the **** are you talking about sir? >_>
Andarel
Smash Apprentice
^ I got no idea. Mayhaps GHNeko finally lost it and started getting threads confused.
Anyhow, just picked up Marf yesterday now that his physics don't feel like *** anymore. Got a few questions, though:
Approaching. For now I just try to fair / nair in and out of their range, mix things up with dtilt, ftilt/smash, and dair. If they're in the air, mostly nair, fair, and uair. Any staples I'm missing?
What is bair useful for? I see it as a finisher for short combos because it has a nice send angle and if utilt or uair end up with the opponent behind you it's a good spot to land it. It just seems...less useful than fair most of the time.
SHDF is back, hurrah. Timing on it is weird for me, though - when exactly do you pull them both out? As quickly as possible? I could pretty much do it in vB, not sure why it's so much more annoying in B+ now. Maybe toying with him in previous versions botched it for me.
Is it just me, or does DB FFF not connect at high percents (75%+)? If I try and end with an upwards or horizontal slash, it always botches as hit 2 or 3 sends the opponent too far to connect the finale. Might be doing it wrong, though.
Fsmash with the new boundaries is delicious. Not sure what the physics changes are, exactly, but fair and nair feel much better.
Anyhow, just picked up Marf yesterday now that his physics don't feel like *** anymore. Got a few questions, though:
Approaching. For now I just try to fair / nair in and out of their range, mix things up with dtilt, ftilt/smash, and dair. If they're in the air, mostly nair, fair, and uair. Any staples I'm missing?
What is bair useful for? I see it as a finisher for short combos because it has a nice send angle and if utilt or uair end up with the opponent behind you it's a good spot to land it. It just seems...less useful than fair most of the time.
SHDF is back, hurrah. Timing on it is weird for me, though - when exactly do you pull them both out? As quickly as possible? I could pretty much do it in vB, not sure why it's so much more annoying in B+ now. Maybe toying with him in previous versions botched it for me.
Is it just me, or does DB FFF not connect at high percents (75%+)? If I try and end with an upwards or horizontal slash, it always botches as hit 2 or 3 sends the opponent too far to connect the finale. Might be doing it wrong, though.
Fsmash with the new boundaries is delicious. Not sure what the physics changes are, exactly, but fair and nair feel much better.
whoops. forgot to quote SHeLL's post.
IDK. Marth as strong of a character as he is has a rather linear approach game. Try using bair; if it tips it will push them far enough away if he/she/it is in shield. Jab is also somewhat useful, especially if your defender uses general aerials OoS: it's a very useful anti-air, more so than Ftilt (imo).
Of course let's not forget grabs. If you pressure you can go for crossover (not cross-up) pivot grabs and whatnot. There's also a tight window (and I do mean tight) for flub fair onto shield into grab (it's risky and you have to time the fair in a way so that after all your landlag and whatnot you still end up at a positive frame advantage; ballsy). Even DBN1 (neutral 1) poke from tip to get a response might be something to think of (you dedicate 30 frames with DBN1 though...so yeah not reliable, but mix it up). There's really no concrete way to approach; although I'd assume approaching with a smash is usually not advisable.
Back when people were playing Rarth, I used Bair for lots of things. Hell, I still do since it is THE SEX in Melee. Marth can't stack it up but who cares when you got bair.
It kills VERY decently if tipped, and the tip range was increased a good while back. It is more or less his most reliable kill move. Like I said before it's good at ramming into shields, and it ends short combos pretty well, and the flub starts strings very well also.
Not to mention, it's basically your best edgeguarding move. Marth's gimp ability has been pretty nerfed since Melee, due to general mechanic changes and various nerfs, but Bair still delivers. Anyone with a punishable recovery (lol...) that gets hit by Bair will either die outright (tip) or get "semi-gimped" (flub).
It's really good, albeit a bit laggy in wind-down. It's no Wolf or Snake bair but it certainly is a Charizard bair in terms of utility.
I would like to say Melee timing but Melee controls and Brawl controls are just responsive (and unresponsive) in different ways.
I don't know what buffer setting you use, but a good way to gauge it is around when Marth starts to pull BACK his sword into a sort of idle position. Basically when it looks like he's done slashing you can start to IASA into something else.
You can SDI out of it now. You could ever since 5.0. It doesn't help that DBN3 is basically **** in terms of range coverage (not even comparative to Marth's others move either lol). Depressing I know. Just don't use DB too much on Luigi or Jigglypuff and your wrists will be fine.
Btw took some pictures of Marth's meteor smash areas. Like the other pics I'll find a way to stick them in the guide somehow:
Meteor smash hitboxes in red
Dair: (as usual tip hitboxes aren't close to the actual 'tip' of Falchion. WTF.)
Dancing Blade Down 3 (DBD3; will probably notate DB stuff like this from this point):
Plasia
Smash Journeyman
I've really gelled with Marth lately, I really like
I'll get some footage up soon. I'll make sure it's the good stuff.
I'll get some footage up soon. I'll make sure it's the good stuff.
Veril
Frame Savant
This man is crazy ^^
Tremendously ballzy though...
You know the matchup I really recommend discussing!? Lucario. Learn this matchup for the inevitable flood of Lucario n00bs.
Tremendously ballzy though...
You know the matchup I really recommend discussing!? Lucario. Learn this matchup for the inevitable flood of Lucario n00bs.
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
Marth vs Lucario? Lollll. Marth needs to Stay in the air.
but seriously how many ppl have actually played out this match-up often enough to really say anything lol.
here ill make some blanket statements and pretend im smart oh wow im so cool everyone loves me haha no
well marth sucks at killing and lucario isn't exactly on the list of "easily gimpable foes" and marths gimping is nothing special anyway. imo there's no point in trying to edgehog (unless he just got spiked or he's REALLY low/at a bad angle to begin with), just sit on stage at a favorable distance away from the ledge but close enough to capitalize (around fsmash distance; shield breaker distance limits ur options too much) and see a reaction. if lucario wants to recover high (like try to extremespeed above stage) just try to bair them (it's your best kill move by far in terms of consistency and reliability) with discretion to ur own judgment obv
on the flipside lucario just has to ledgehog and ur ****ed. he can even try to dair you into a stage spike for lulz. lucario is like an obnoxious sheik wannabe when ur fishing for the ledge <_< not to mention even if you DO get to the ledge lucario just has to spam fsmash by the ledge and ur 0 good get-back options just got marginally worse xD
this mu can get pretty tough for either side. key detail here for marth is to kill BEFORE lucario kills you. basic vbrawl **** there i know but momentum is more pronounced in this game so you better hop to the goddess of altea it's on your side.
lucario can juggle you pretty badly; you can kinda do the same but don't try anything too ballsy once they're out of hitstun since lucario's dair is pretty good...obv
lucarios combos > yours. his are more reliable by far, but your strings control more space and because of ur sword just happen to give you more mix-up options against the reaction
play luc on a platformed stage and you might feel a bit better too lol. 'course that's in his benefit too; but you'll have more traps yourself so more power to you to seize back momentum.
rayku ur obv more experienced help me
@VietG: Ironically I didn't namesearch, I was just looking at this thread and you mentioned me
I don't know jack **** about this matchup in Brawl+. All I know is that Marth is constantly offensive and annoying, so it's hard to even get a combo started. Our combos may be longer-lasting, but yours do more damage unless Lucario's at a higher percent.
And yeah, don't ever get hit offstage, you're essentially done for if that happens. Trying to recover low is probably a bad idea, so learn to DI in order to avoid that.
Basically just flail your sword wildly and you'll win. Marth wins the matchup pretty readily I'd say.
I don't know jack **** about this matchup in Brawl+. All I know is that Marth is constantly offensive and annoying, so it's hard to even get a combo started. Our combos may be longer-lasting, but yours do more damage unless Lucario's at a higher percent.
And yeah, don't ever get hit offstage, you're essentially done for if that happens. Trying to recover low is probably a bad idea, so learn to DI in order to avoid that.
Basically just flail your sword wildly and you'll win. Marth wins the matchup pretty readily I'd say.
i guess it's like the annoyance of marth vs falco with less **** being flung and MOAR FSMASH UND UTHROW UTHROWS FAIR FAIR
luc and marf are so similar obv looks they're even blue, definitely of relevance
summary of the match-up i guess LOL
luc and marf are so similar obv
looks they're even blue, definitely of relevancesummary of the match-up i guess LOL
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
hrmmmmmmmm ....... *enters random post*
60:40 marth obv >_>
60:40 marth obv >_>
Veril
Frame Savant
Man, you guys sure are impressively knowledgeable about what might be your most important matchup.
le sigh
I was considering making a combo list for you guys for this specific matchup, but I don't see the point given this sad sad discussion. Seriously though, if you guys improve this discussion (vids, strats, CP ideas, etc) I will reward you with science that will help you deal with this punk. Yes... That is a bribe.
le sigh
I was considering making a combo list for you guys for this specific matchup, but I don't see the point given this sad sad discussion. Seriously though, if you guys improve this discussion (vids, strats, CP ideas, etc) I will reward you with science that will help you deal with this punk. Yes... That is a bribe.
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
wait are you seriously thinking lucario is gonna be our most important matchup ? plz >_>......
None of the Marth's here play against Lucario enough.
I'd be more comfortable discussions matches we play most often like Falcon. And in my region, Falco, Shiek, Link, Diddy as well.
Yes, this will indeed be a very important matchup in brawl+. Marth is one of the very few that has a positive matchup on lucario. Seeing as how from the tourneys I've been to, and the lucario is OP thread (lucario+ thread obv) Lucario is probley gonna be one of the most over played characters in brawl+ when people really start getting into it.
So lucario vs. matchups will be something everyone is gonna need to look into if they plan on being competitive in up-coming tourneys. Lucario is the only character I really train agaisnt already, but I'm not touching marth.
Veril
Frame Savant
lol
Yeah, discussing unfamiliar matchups... why bother discussing the most hyped character in the game (though not necessarily the best) when you could discuss matchups that you already know?
was there a point to this?
GuruKid
Smash Ace
They cannot discuss matchups they simply do not know, Veril.... Unless you want a half-arsed "analysis" with no experience to back it up.
Pretty much this. It'd be an extreme case of theorycraft because we no matches to really go on at all. :/
Unless any Lucario+ mains want to come in here and enlighten us. V:
Umm... I guess I can try to post some things...
I guess...
I have to say this is one match up from vbrawl that honestly hasn't changed much. The only big difference being that Marth can't break out of lucario's combos after 2 or 3 hits anymore and Lucario isn't so easily edgehogged anymore making it a lot easier for Lucario in general.
The one thing that shuts down Lucario the most is Marth's aerials. Properly spacing fair/nair really shuts down Lucario from approaching him directly as it beats it most things except for fsmash. The only means of Lucario approach is with a roll, (which is a poor approach in general if done often) or getting past him with airdodges. There is also the option to approach high, but that is also rather risky in general. Lucario's best hope is to bait out an attack and try to strike after.
Lucario's projectile really doesn't hinder Marth very much. Baby aurasphere can easily be stopped with Marth's jab or fair. In fact, fair can beat out a fully charged aurasphere up to some pretty silly percents. (Haven't tested exactly up to what percent it can stop it, but I'm almost sure I've had it stopped while I was at least 80%)
The one aspect of the matchup that really changed was each character's KO potential. In vbrawl, it was pretty futile for Lucario to recovery against a good Marth. Now that Lucario isn't restricted to having to grab the ledge, he doesn't succumb to being gimped as easily. (Not to say that he can't) Lucario does a MUCH better job of keeping Marth off the stage and is worlds easier to accomplish without the autosnap ledges.
Aside from offstage shenanigans, I would say Marth's only reliable KO is bair. His Fsmash is honestly too predictable and slow to really use effectively. Lucario's fsmash is pretty meaty and reliable in general against Marth.
Lucario's biggest problem is actually getting in against Marth. He is just easily shut down from approaching and has to rely on having a lead to have Marth approach him. I think this is the biggest factor in the matchup.
Also, most of Lucario's grounded attacks are relatively slow (aside from reverse utilt) compared to Marth's so things such as Dancing Blade or Dolphin Slash pester him.
Honestly, if Marth is hanging in the air then there isn't much that Lucario can do. His ground attacks should be limited to DB/DS or pokes such as dtilt/ftilt to keep Lucario at bay.
I guess...
I have to say this is one match up from vbrawl that honestly hasn't changed much. The only big difference being that Marth can't break out of lucario's combos after 2 or 3 hits anymore and Lucario isn't so easily edgehogged anymore making it a lot easier for Lucario in general.
The one thing that shuts down Lucario the most is Marth's aerials. Properly spacing fair/nair really shuts down Lucario from approaching him directly as it beats it most things except for fsmash. The only means of Lucario approach is with a roll, (which is a poor approach in general if done often) or getting past him with airdodges. There is also the option to approach high, but that is also rather risky in general. Lucario's best hope is to bait out an attack and try to strike after.
Lucario's projectile really doesn't hinder Marth very much. Baby aurasphere can easily be stopped with Marth's jab or fair. In fact, fair can beat out a fully charged aurasphere up to some pretty silly percents. (Haven't tested exactly up to what percent it can stop it, but I'm almost sure I've had it stopped while I was at least 80%)
The one aspect of the matchup that really changed was each character's KO potential. In vbrawl, it was pretty futile for Lucario to recovery against a good Marth. Now that Lucario isn't restricted to having to grab the ledge, he doesn't succumb to being gimped as easily. (Not to say that he can't) Lucario does a MUCH better job of keeping Marth off the stage and is worlds easier to accomplish without the autosnap ledges.
Aside from offstage shenanigans, I would say Marth's only reliable KO is bair. His Fsmash is honestly too predictable and slow to really use effectively. Lucario's fsmash is pretty meaty and reliable in general against Marth.
Lucario's biggest problem is actually getting in against Marth. He is just easily shut down from approaching and has to rely on having a lead to have Marth approach him. I think this is the biggest factor in the matchup.
Also, most of Lucario's grounded attacks are relatively slow (aside from reverse utilt) compared to Marth's so things such as Dancing Blade or Dolphin Slash pester him.
Honestly, if Marth is hanging in the air then there isn't much that Lucario can do. His ground attacks should be limited to DB/DS or pokes such as dtilt/ftilt to keep Lucario at bay.
Bolded makes me Lol. I dont think ganon has anything better than a 4-6 MU, but that's just me.
well it's quite apparent by how "impressed you are" by our sheer knowledge of this match-up that there's no point in redundancy.
with ur hopeful attitude at this thread i actually wondered why you didn't say it yourself.
that ratio won't matter if you have no ****ing idea what you're doing and just keep trying to rush in with a fair thinking "lol he has no range" or dc dtilt thinking: lol shield pressure for grounded character when ganon actually spends a lot more time in the air than the other heavies (ike excluded).
ganondorf and all the other heavies strive off ppl not knowing the mu. what's worse is that they actually have realistically winnable mu's versus marth too.
Of course. I'm pretty sure that applies for like...idk...the WHOLE roster?
In Marth vs Ganon, Marth just consistently has options, and being a heavy, means that Marth can have his way with Ganon in Air. He still outranges, outprioritizes, and outspeeds Ganon by a decent margin. A Marth that swings away is obviously going to lose the match up. It's more of a reaction based thing on Marth's side. You wait for Ganon to do something and you react. If Ganon is trying to do the same thing, he's obviously going to be on the ground in which you have the advantage position wise. Same thing if ganon and Marth are in the air and they're on the same level.
Marth has an easier time edgeguarding/hogging Ganon than Ganon does with Marth. All the spikes Ganon has can be stage teched/jumped and based on the move and position, Ganon can be punished for it.
Let's know forget the ledge trap potential Marth. He's practically a foreboding and monstrous figure against someone on the ledge, imo.
It's certainly an easier match up because how easy Ganon can **** Marth up and how a single mistake on Marth's part is about 1456464595% of damage. ****, with BAD DI, Marth practically SPAWNS at Death percents because if he's sent out too far and to close horizontally to the stage, there aint not chance of him coming back if the ganon isnt asleep lmao.
And it's not like Ganon can put shield pressure on Marth because Marth has reliable OOS options.
In Marth vs Ganon, Marth just consistently has options, and being a heavy, means that Marth can have his way with Ganon in Air. He still outranges, outprioritizes, and outspeeds Ganon by a decent margin. A Marth that swings away is obviously going to lose the match up. It's more of a reaction based thing on Marth's side. You wait for Ganon to do something and you react. If Ganon is trying to do the same thing, he's obviously going to be on the ground in which you have the advantage position wise. Same thing if ganon and Marth are in the air and they're on the same level.
Marth has an easier time edgeguarding/hogging Ganon than Ganon does with Marth. All the spikes Ganon has can be stage teched/jumped and based on the move and position, Ganon can be punished for it.
Let's know forget the ledge trap potential Marth. He's practically a foreboding and monstrous figure against someone on the ledge, imo.
It's certainly an easier match up because how easy Ganon can **** Marth up and how a single mistake on Marth's part is about 1456464595% of damage. ****, with BAD DI, Marth practically SPAWNS at Death percents because if he's sent out too far and to close horizontally to the stage, there aint not chance of him coming back if the ganon isnt asleep lmao.
And it's not like Ganon can put shield pressure on Marth because Marth has reliable OOS options.
If you go to apex, I will prove you wrong with a smash to your marth's face.
Veril
Frame Savant
Ganondorf will **** Marth if the Marth actually lets him land one of his combo starters. The if there is so huge though. Ganon can capitalize on mistakes to an amazing degree, and I definitely wouldn't write this matchup off as an autowin. It definitely is in Marth's advantage though. The ganon player simply has to be better to win this.
Zeon's posts are too pro though. I think Zeon's s*** talking has a 99:1 mu advantage vs. this thread.
Zeon's posts are too pro though. I think Zeon's s*** talking has a 99:1 mu advantage vs. this thread.
Thats right, KICK LOGIC TO THE CURB WITH A SPARTA BOOT TO THE SHIN.
See now I really have to go in order to prove you wrong. :|
If I can't go, navy johns.
I agree with this. His **** talk is prerrii gewd
zeon would watch tengen toppa gurren lagann
i don't agree with the edgeguarding part tbh. it's even really. marth's recovery flings up faster while ganon's is slower; meaning it can stuff mistimed hog attempts (contrary to some beliefs marth's faster ascension isn't really good unless two ppl are going for the same ledge from around the same position...which happens how often in singles? yeah...)
also ganon's shoryuken has a noticeable amount of hitstun and its trajectory allows for ganon to capitalize or go for a better position back from the ledge. if someone gets hit by DS flub it's just gonna whack them farther away from the ledge as a GTFO
which brings me to the point that i don't think "reliable OoS options" and "good" OoS options are interchangeable, which excuse any misinterpretation, is kinda what's being implied.
all of marth's OoS options are laggy, totally unsafe on block, "last resort" sort of GTFO moves. they're so easily baited and any good ganon will go in knowing he can be somewhat liberal against marth's shield (compared to other characters at the very least).
which btw zeon, how DO you go about pressuring shields exactly? fair -> jab -> look stupid as you dashdance -> etc. or what?
on another note zeon we should totally mm if we ever see each other again. too bad you know ga's smash community is dyyyyyiiiiinnnnnggggg
i don't agree with the edgeguarding part tbh. it's even really. marth's recovery flings up faster while ganon's is slower; meaning it can stuff mistimed hog attempts (contrary to some beliefs marth's faster ascension isn't really good unless two ppl are going for the same ledge from around the same position...which happens how often in singles? yeah...)
also ganon's shoryuken has a noticeable amount of hitstun and its trajectory allows for ganon to capitalize or go for a better position back from the ledge. if someone gets hit by DS flub it's just gonna whack them farther away from the ledge as a GTFO
which brings me to the point that i don't think "reliable OoS options" and "good" OoS options are interchangeable, which excuse any misinterpretation, is kinda what's being implied.
all of marth's OoS options are laggy, totally unsafe on block, "last resort" sort of GTFO moves. they're so easily baited and any good ganon will go in knowing he can be somewhat liberal against marth's shield (compared to other characters at the very least).
which btw zeon, how DO you go about pressuring shields exactly? fair -> jab -> look stupid as you dashdance -> etc. or what?
on another note zeon we should totally mm if we ever see each other again. too bad you know ga's smash community is dyyyyyiiiiinnnnnggggg
This thread is now about the Marth vs. Ganondorf matchup, because seeing the word Ganon in a thread gets me all excited in the pants region.
Yeah Viet, I travel for AL and TN brawl+ tournaments now, you need like...a car and..moneys or something.
Yeah Viet, I travel for AL and TN brawl+ tournaments now, you need like...a car and..moneys or something.
eisley
Smash Cadet
agree, needz CAR!!!
Veril
Frame Savant
When you guys gets the necessary MU experience with Lucario to have that discussion I'll be waiting with science. Totally not gonna dump a bunch of adv data to help you beat Ganon... in any character thread ever. I might do the opposite though, and do some research to help out the Ganon players. Depends on how entertaining Zeon is ;p