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Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

Zwarm

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
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Mount Prospect, IL
Yeah that's definitely it, so many buttons you could be pressing instead of grab

It's discouraging, but I always like to look back at the videos so I don't make the same mistakes twice, hopefully

I think Squirtle is one of the best characters in the game with all 4 stocks haha
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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I'm the only one allowed to grab people!
 

didds

Smash Lord
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Mar 27, 2008
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in a tree
I used to grab, but then I took an arrow to the knee

And stay tuned, I'm hoping to get some friendlies recorded tonight, and analysis will be welcome
 
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Jamwa

Smash Champion
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Jan 14, 2012
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cave plantation
Just found out there's a P:M board. Is there an AT thread? or do i gotta discover all the tricks myself.

Also doing the shell shift into b-reversed/wavebounced bubble is best

back to serious discussion though,
i swear if you pause on any frame squirtle is just making a cute face
can we get some testing for this
 

Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
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Some of the ATs are in the "cool names for things" thread that's been pushed towards the bottom. There's quite a bit of shellshift stuff not listed there.
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
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Jan 14, 2012
Messages
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cave plantation
Ok so first tournament and I placed 4th, losing to a Falcon and a Peach.
really kind of lost how to play against those characters.
Falcon seems to just out-range and out-speed me in the air.
Peach's dsmash, dair and nair are hard to deal with. they catch me out of most approaches.
i went kirby against peach and did better, but only because I felt that mu was easier.
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give advice
 

Zwarm

Smash Hero
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Mount Prospect, IL
I feel like both of those matches are tough for Squirtle, but unfortunately I don't play them much, so I don't have any specific advice. Mainly don't try to fight Falcon in the air, and knock Peach out of her float with bubble or water gun as much as possible
 

didds

Smash Lord
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I hate falcon, I would try to incorporate some water gun into your play, a well timed one can stuff falcon's approach.
 

Sir Skaro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Las Cruces, NM
I practice with a Peach main regularly.

The MU is highly in favor of Peach. Well, that's what I would say, if Squirtle didn't have armor. The secret to beating Peach is armor. Squirtle can armor through the majority of her aerials, smashes, and turnips. In fact WD can armor through multiple hits of her down smash (though you take mega damage).

If the Peach is not downsmash camping and doing a lot of floating, approach using amor moves (such as nair, or hydroplane smash) or attacks with invincible body parts (bair and up air). As long as she's not too far above you (no higher than the tip of a full hop), this is very easy. Even a WD is a good approach while she's floating. She'll see your WD and float canceling into an intercepting nair is second nature. If you do the WD hop, you'll get her until she adapts (where you can then start mixing up stuff). Bubble is not a good idea to approach a floating Peach, as there's basically no follow up, is difficult to land, and has mega lag. Once you get Peach onto the ground, get in on her and combo the class right out of her with weak attacks (jabs, tilts, grabs, water gun, bubble) and finish off with a smash attack or an aerial or two. You can follow up from there (at low %s) with an attack out of SS reverse jump. If you get a hit, take it as far as possible. Apply as much safe pressure as you can.

If the Peach is not floating or downsmash camping (because that totally happens), wavedash in and out of her range and try to poke her with a forward tilt or a jab and see where you can go from there. Never stop moving and be as slippery as possible.

Now, if the Peach is downsmash camping, bubble and water gun are your best friends. Armored smash attacks word well too, but don't have as many follow ups and give you damage. It is also possible to stay in her face when she's downsmash spamming, because Squirtle's jabs actually clank with Peach's downsmash and all of her jabs and tilts. It's stupid, but it works and you will win that clank war. Baiting out the downsmash and waiting it out for a punish works too.

Basically, you want to condition the Peach to float and try to play a defensive game of baiting and punishing (this is difficult since for her since you can armor through her turnips and have the speed to punish her for using them). Once you accomplish this she has no choice but to wait for you to mess up. And since Squirtle mains never mess up (right, guys?) it gives you a decent advantage. When all is said and done though, I'd say it's a pretty even MU that depends heavily on the stage. You want plenty of room to run around and platforms.

On edge guard Peach: you're on your own. I still haven't found an effective way. Bubble gets you wrecked. You just kind of have to SS jump out there and try to connect a move. She has a hard time edge guarding you as well if there are walls to cling to, since you can wait out her float.

Squirtle-Peach is not the funnest of MUs and hopefully you'll never have to deal with one in tournament, but it's winnable if you know Squirtle. Squirtle can run circles around Peach, so take advantage. Make her sit there and wonder what she's doing with her life. Squirtle-Peach also makes a freaking amazing doubles team.

Hope this helps.
 

me9595

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Michigan
Now I dont really know where to put this because the character idea thread is kind of dead so i just decided to put it here.
I think that something could be changed with squirtles water gun attack to make it more useful and hopefully make him a better character. If any of you remember the animation for water gun in generation 3, i think that using something similar to that would be good. My idea is to make an uncharged water gun that small ball that would get shot across the screen sort of similar to lucas's pk freeze. However, im not sure whether or not the move should have stun on it and do a little bit of damage or have no stun and do a little bit more damage. I guess that would be for someone else to figure out.
 

PlateProp

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I wish Water Gun would just be replaced with another move. I haven't seen any Squirtle players who actually use the move as more than a one time thing in general.

That, or making it do actual damage, and have more of an impact. Like the damage and stun of a Falco laser but with the lag of using Bubble on the ground.

Thry should share animations for mind games xD
 

Sir Skaro

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Now I dont really know where to put this because the character idea thread is kind of dead so i just decided to put it here.
I think that something could be changed with squirtles water gun attack to make it more useful and hopefully make him a better character. If any of you remember the animation for water gun in generation 3, i think that using something similar to that would be good. My idea is to make an uncharged water gun that small ball that would get shot across the screen sort of similar to lucas's pk freeze. However, im not sure whether or not the move should have stun on it and do a little bit of damage or have no stun and do a little bit more damage. I guess that would be for someone else to figure out.

Water gun is very useful for resets, displacing opponents and projectiles, recovery, and mixups. For example, a fully charged water gun and displace a recovering Samus' bombs or clank with a Ness' PK Thunder, putting Ness in helpless. Charging water gun also looks very similar to charging a smash attack (though this looses it's potency after a couple uses) can mess with your opponents head if charged while flying through the air or hydroplaning. You can also reverse B a full charged water gun and get a ton of distance off of it (though I'd opt for a WD personally). Water gun is also Squirtle's only tool to get a weak, angle-able hitbox out in front of him while he's in the air. It's definitely a wimpy move as far as neutral specials go, but it has its place and can be useful.

Giving Squirtle a projectile would be amazing, but his move set is designed for extremely close proximity combat. In addition to a projectile not being in the spirit of Squirtle's move set (which isn't admit-ably a good argument, but I believe the PMBR strives for that), it would also sacrifice the uniqueness and usefulness of what it currently is. If the projectile was really good, it would probably have a longer cool down (like bubble) which takes away from Squirtle's slipperiness. If it was weak and didn't have a lot of cool down, it wouldn't be much better than what it is now. I like the idea though.

I also think that Squirtle can be a projectile in himself. You can certainly play him as such.
 

PlateProp

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So we're playing off that Squirtle is unique because he essentially has FLUDD in his mouth? Idk about that.
Every time I use the move the opponent will just be slowed down, it doesn't even push them back. And when it does, it's just a small few spots.

I really don't see how having a projectile like Water Gun would take away slipperiness at all. In fact, I would see it as boosting his slipperiness, because you could chase the water.
 

didds

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The stun at close range and the low lag on an uncharged water gun is enough to snag a grab, which is enough to do a whole lot of other stuff. I'll admit I rarely use the move, but will throw it out occasionally to stuff a projectile. I want to use it more in situations where my standard attacks just don't quite reach, but where water gun could keep my string going. It's not a bad move, it's just very niche.
 

didds

Smash Lord
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btw, got some videos up in the video thread, lookin for some critique. please and thank you everybody
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
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cave plantation
WD never hit Peach during her Dsmash, I just got caught in it and hit in the direction behind her. Nair/Fair/Bair also all seem to beat WD. All I could really do was hit and run, and bait the Dsmash to punish with bubble into a grab or something.

Falcon I just got wrecked because he was better than me, but I was still confused on how to approach him since he's so fast. Maybe I'll go Lucas for Falcon and Kirby for Peach.
 

didds

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I've mostly used it to deal with projectiles. One example is against Mario approaching with fireballs. There's enough charge to get rid of the fireball and still enough to stun Mario. This is the extent that I've started using it at least.
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
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I like to SS and then turnaround a fully charged water gun when the opponent is offstage to sort of drag them lower with the hitstun, push them away, or eat their DJ.
 

Dekar173

Justice Man
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
3,126
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Albuquerque, NM
I practice with a Peach main regularly.

The MU is highly in favor of Peach. Well, that's what I would say, if Squirtle didn't have armor. The secret to beating Peach is armor. Squirtle can armor through the majority of her aerials, smashes, and turnips. In fact WD can armor through multiple hits of her down smash (though you take mega damage).

If the Peach is not downsmash camping and doing a lot of floating, approach using amor moves (such as nair, or hydroplane smash) or attacks with invincible body parts (bair and up air). As long as she's not too far above you (no higher than the tip of a full hop), this is very easy. Even a WD is a good approach while she's floating. She'll see your WD and float canceling into an intercepting nair is second nature. If you do the WD hop, you'll get her until she adapts (where you can then start mixing up stuff). Bubble is not a good idea to approach a floating Peach, as there's basically no follow up, is difficult to land, and has mega lag. Once you get Peach onto the ground, get in on her and combo the class right out of her with weak attacks (jabs, tilts, grabs, water gun, bubble) and finish off with a smash attack or an aerial or two. You can follow up from there (at low %s) with an attack out of SS reverse jump. If you get a hit, take it as far as possible. Apply as much safe pressure as you can.

If the Peach is not floating or downsmash camping (because that totally happens), wavedash in and out of her range and try to poke her with a forward tilt or a jab and see where you can go from there. Never stop moving and be as slippery as possible.

Now, if the Peach is downsmash camping, bubble and water gun are your best friends. Armored smash attacks word well too, but don't have as many follow ups and give you damage. It is also possible to stay in her face when she's downsmash spamming, because Squirtle's jabs actually clank with Peach's downsmash and all of her jabs and tilts. It's stupid, but it works and you will win that clank war. Baiting out the downsmash and waiting it out for a punish works too.

Basically, you want to condition the Peach to float and try to play a defensive game of baiting and punishing (this is difficult since for her since you can armor through her turnips and have the speed to punish her for using them). Once you accomplish this she has no choice but to wait for you to mess up. And since Squirtle mains never mess up (right, guys?) it gives you a decent advantage. When all is said and done though, I'd say it's a pretty even MU that depends heavily on the stage. You want plenty of room to run around and platforms.

On edge guard Peach: you're on your own. I still haven't found an effective way. Bubble gets you wrecked. You just kind of have to SS jump out there and try to connect a move. She has a hard time edge guarding you as well if there are walls to cling to, since you can wait out her float.

Squirtle-Peach is not the funnest of MUs and hopefully you'll never have to deal with one in tournament, but it's winnable if you know Squirtle. Squirtle can run circles around Peach, so take advantage. Make her sit there and wonder what she's doing with her life. Squirtle-Peach also makes a freaking amazing doubles team.

Hope this helps.
Sorry had to stop reading when you said WD goes through dsmash.
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
Maybe when Squirtles at 0%? I wonder if tilt side-b vs Smash side-b (slow vs fast) differs the amount of armor cus I think the slower does more dmg
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
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cave plantation
It does dude, test it out thoroughly before you dismiss it.
I played in a match and I vividly remember Dsmash beating withdraw.

If you're hitting peach by jumping, dunno if that counts as 'beating' Dsmash so much as jumping over it and hitting her above the hitbox.
 

Dekar173

Justice Man
Joined
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3,126
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Albuquerque, NM
Shorthop in WD can 'beat' (doesn't get hit by) Peach dsmash, otherwise you're eating 26+% from 0 and armoring into it, OR, you're trading hits (13-14 for like 8, and dsmash leaves you in hitstun longer than WD leaves her in hitstun, compiling 2 disadvantages for the sake of challenging a move that's not difficult to deal with).

LEARN YOUR ****.
 

Sir Skaro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
123
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Las Cruces, NM
Could you record your TV? At what % does Squirtle stop powering through it?
I played in a match and I vividly remember Dsmash beating withdraw.
If you're hitting peach by jumping, dunno if that counts as 'beating' Dsmash so much as jumping over it and hitting her above the hitbox.
As of now I do not have a means of recording it. And I do not know at what % Squirtle stops powering through it. In fact I don't know much about the needed circumstances, but since no two men can have the same hallucination, I am confident that is is possible. I can only recall two times when I've successfully armored through multiple hits of Peach's down smash with WD and hit her out of the animation out of the dozens of hours I've played the MU. So her down smash often does win. You'll have to ask a better man than me.

Shorthop in WD can 'beat' (doesn't get hit by) Peach dsmash, otherwise you're eating 26+% from 0 and armoring into it, OR, you're trading hits (13-14 for like 8, and dsmash leaves you in hitstun longer than WD leaves her in hitstun, compiling 2 disadvantages for the sake of challenging a move that's not difficult to deal with).
Though I never claimed it was a good idea to actually WD into a Peach down smash, you are right in saying that it is not the best option as far as dealing with her down smash. However, the feat is possible. Smash isn't all about being competitive. It's fun to see the expression on your friend's face when you armor through one of his/her character's strongest moves. And if you only play competitively, it's possibly the funnest styling option (outside of toadstooling) Squirtle has against Peach. If you're about to JV 4 a Peach, it's a crowd-pleasing styling option; have some fun with it.
 
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Sir Skaro

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 30, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Las Cruces, NM
I guess I could get some footage on my phone. Though I doubt that would be very helpful since I can't edit the video or make it very long. I also don't think you can upload directly to YouTube from your phone? Correct me if I'm wrong. Next time I practice with my friend we'll experiment with it and see if I can answer your questions.
 

1FD

Smash Ace
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RUINING EVERYTHING WITH EVERYBODY ELSE
You can punish peach dsmashes like no problem
Squirtle is fast you just waveland grab and stuff
The 1 good peach here was having a bit of difficulty with the local squirts in the matchup saying hes just not someone you can commit against because he'll hit you and the metagame will likely turn into very long matches whenever a Squirtle is in play because that's where he thrives
He wasn't really having trouble but he said he could tell that he could have trouble is Squirt did certain things
and Peach has a hard time catching things EVEN if she doesn't give a **** since you can't ever go TO her at least she can't force you into her DEATHBALLS too easily
That's like Peaches thing and the better peeps get at the matchup from both sides the more Squirt will just be avoiding Peach and hoping those openings come to WD grab
And I think a lot of matchups will be like that for Squirt..............
We never see withdraw much around here so can't comment on it
Our good players tell our Squirt players it's not something they suggest doing lots of
 
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SpiderMad

Smash Master
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May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
Does anyone know the frame safeness of Tilt/Smash Withdraw hitting and doing another Withdraw frame perfect, in the circumstance say that the person flys with you so that the 2nd withdraw hits immediately when the hitbox comes? It depends on character and DMG too I think, so say Mario at 40%
 
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Burnsy

Smash Lord
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Nov 4, 2012
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Phoenix, AZ
When he says tilt/smash withdraw he means how you are able to get two withdraw speeds depending on how the stick is positioned when B is pressed (for smash side-b, just pretend u are doing a charged fsmash but replace A with B)

The question (I think) is whether side-b into side-b can be a true combo if performed frame perfect. He says something about frame saftey but I don't see how that applies in this situation since it sounds like he is talking about hitting them, not their sheilds.
 
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