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Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

GenericName

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
94
Erm...I dont really think you know how to use WD right if you're saying it's entirely dependent on how the opponent techs. WD is the ultimate tech chaser. Your logic only sounds like it would apply if you used air bubble and only hit with the edge of the attack, instead of the mid-close range. The continuous tripping effect of the attack prevents teching because they are kind of being retripped too fast to tech <_>. And that's more than enough time to WD
 

Oro?!

Smash Hero
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
9,674
Location
Geneva/Chicago, Illinois
There is no surprise with withdraw. It's just another move. You move faster with dash/wavedash/shellshift and half of your moveset is better than withdraw on block, on hit, and on whiff.

If I know where my opponent is teching, and if I have as much time to react as you state off of Bubble, then I would rather grab, dsmash, dair, or dtilt. They are all much more reliable in terms of combo extension and setup. You make it sound like Bubble is the only move that sets up tech chases, or that Bubble is the only reliable move to use to start withdraw strings. I don't see how withdraw is the ultimate tech chase. It isn't even as good as say Falcon's raptor boost that covers 3/4 options and leads to guaranteed knees. You cannot react with withdraw or raptor boost, you have to commit. That is a flaw as an "ultimate tech chase" move.

Withdraw will stop working very quickly. Especially if you are playing against good players. Be warned. Took Professor Pro about 4 games and I'm sure he will not forget for some time. Just saying.
 

GenericName

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
94
Maybe you should stop assuming that i'm saying to only use WD...,and accept the fact that it's no where near as bad as you believe it to be...Just because you like doing other things doesnt make WD complete crap. It's a very good tool in Squirtle's already good kit. It can combo into any of his aerials but dair , so I dont get how Falcon's Raptor is any better. You can't turn Raptor around either, like you can in the middle of a WD, so theres much less to "commit" to.
I also never implied that Bubble was his only setup. Just one that could be used tp bypass the problems you stated earlier.
 

MrHazuki

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
501
Location
Lund, Sweden
Withdraw will stop working very quickly. Especially if you are playing against good players. Be warned. Took Professor Pro about 4 games and I'm sure he will not forget for some time. Just saying.
I'd like to hope that the one who's benefited most from that set is me. I now know how to interact with most of the stuff Snake has, which hopefully will make our next set more even. :D
 

Sir Skaro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Las Cruces, NM
Man lurking is a lot of work. Anywho, I have to agree with Oro on.... everything he said. I play a very campy Squirtle. I play people who are flat-out superior smashers than I am, but I beat them consistently because of Squirtle's slipperiness and combo flexibility. The armor helps too, nair and the angled dtilt are my best friends. I also feel that I win because of unfamiliarity, especially with how often I do hydroplane smash attacks and grabs - I use them excessively. Once they start shielding my hydroplanes, I start mixing it up by hydroplane grabbing and empty hydroplanes to grab them from behind as I slide. Not to mention his ability to sling himself across the stage from either direction of shell shift into an arial or bubble. I don't use bubble that often, and I usually use WD to keep up pressure, extend a combo, or tech chase. Rarely I'll mix it up and use Aqua Jet to get back on stage or even KO. But it is important to be able to use WD without getting punished or intercepted. Jump -> close range WD is good because if you hit them, you have a possible combo. If they shield, you're too high to hit and then you're gone. If they roll, you may be able to punish it, if not probably get away with no punish. If they spot dodge, it's almost a guaranteed punish.

I agree that it is a heavily overused move as a whole, but it is also a fantastic move. But Squirtle has a ton of good moves that need to be utilized in a more balanced ratio for the sake of maximum slipperiness. WD has too much commitment to be used excessively and still keep up slipperiness. What a word, slipperiness.

Anywho, I am going to my first out-of-state tournament Saturday (so tomorrow.) I doubt we will be recording matches, but if we do I'll definitely post it here. It's my tournament to lose but I'll do my best, gotta be humbled once in a while, otherwise you end up with tattoos of space animals on your biceps.... Kidding.
 

Sir Skaro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Las Cruces, NM
About a 20-25 man bracket, Smashers from 3 or 4 different towns and two. I took second in PM singles going Squirtle the whole time (with the exception of one match). Apparently my Squirtle caused a good amount of hype, they kept me on the streaming TV when possible and someone even funded my entry into PM doubles (which I wasn't planning on entering) so they could see more Squirtle. My teammate and I stomped through the bracket and took 3rd. It was my second tournament and my first smashfest that was hosted at someone's house, and I loved it. The environment was very enjoyable. Overall the tournament was super fun and I am pleased with all aspects of its outcome. They videos should be loaded onto Twitch archives in about a week or so. I'll post them here when they come up.
 

Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,167
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I took 9th in singles and 5th in doubles in a 80 man pm regional with him last night. Tournament took place here in Phoenix with players from all parts of AZ, Cali, New Mexico and Mexico.

The only time I went Lucas for MU reasons in singles was against Machiavelli's Ivysaur, and after losing that first match with him (pretty badly) I switched to Squirtle and almost came back in the set.

I played Squirtle half the time in doubles and Lucas the other half ( Squirtle can be a good teammate imo but we had a specific Lucas/Ivy synergy going).
 
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Sir Skaro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Las Cruces, NM
So, after some thinking I think it's time for me to pick up a secondary. I should probably pick someone who I can turn to when the matchup against Squirtle is too much (so basically against characters with a sword or a strong tech-chase game). Who do you guys recommend? I've always wanted to pick up Bowser, ICs, or Luigi.
 

Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,167
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I don't recommend switching against sword characters besides maybe Metaknight. I think you should learn the match up.

I also don't think I'd pick any of those characters as CPs against swords except bowser, but he also gets ****ed up by techchases. On the other hand, Luigi kinda gets ****ed up by swords but has decent tech/roll/getup options. Also, one of the worst neutral games and approaches in the game, so I don't think he's a very good CP for the type of character you're talking about.
 
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Daftatt

"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Messages
1,219
Location
Olympia, WA
NNID
Daftatt
anybody else use shellsling into b-reversal watergun? It's such godly momentum management. Really tough though.

I used to think withdraw was bad practice, but then I realized withdraw-up air and now I love it. Still, using withdraw over the length of more than 1/5 of FD is dumb
 

Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,167
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Withdraw can fake people out if you head straight for them from far away, turn at the last moment to avoid their attack, and then turn again to head back at them and punish. Its all about unpredictably with how effective that move is in neutral.
 

Sir Skaro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Las Cruces, NM
I don't recommend switching against sword characters besides maybe Metaknight. I think you should learn the match up.

I also don't think I'd pick any of those characters as CPs against swords except bowser, but he also gets ****ed up by techchases. On the other hand, Luigi kinda gets ****ed up by swords but has decent tech/roll/getup options. Also, one of the worst neutral games and approaches in the game, so I don't think he's a very good CP for the type of character you're talking about.
It's not that I don't want to learn the matchup, I just want more options against an opponent who may be much better than me. I'd like to have a secondary who is good in every aspect that Squirtle is bad at for coverage purposes.

Perhaps Ivysaur?
 
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Zwarm

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
6,705
Location
Mount Prospect, IL
Squirtle/Ivysaur has been pretty solid for me. Though I'm dropping Ivysaur now because I can't break habits I have with him and only him.

Ivy is good against swords, which I think Squirtle suffers most against, and Ivy is pretty good against spacies too.

In other news, got 9th in our 32 person Wednesday local haha. I lost to Lazarond's Link and 5-1's Pit. Both games came down to last stock game 3, I was just going too hard offstage and suicided both games against Laz and kept getting gimped for trying to gimp Pit offstage. I gotta work on not yoloing so hard, but it calls to me.
 

Zwarm

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
6,705
Location
Mount Prospect, IL
I only play Pokemon in this game. Everyone around Chicago knows me as the Pokemon Master. I have played every Pokemon in this game, including Puff. Not saying I'm good with them all, but I can competently use them all at least.

I also play G&W, but I just call him Pokemon Trainer.
 

Punch_the_Duck

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 21, 2014
Messages
7
I only play Pokemon in this game. Everyone around Chicago knows me as the Pokemon Master. I have played every Pokemon in this game, including Puff. Not saying I'm good with them all, but I can competently use them all at least.

I also play G&W, but I just call him Pokemon Trainer.
Are any of your squirtle or mewtwo fights on youtube?
 

Zwarm

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
6,705
Location
Mount Prospect, IL
No Mewtwo on YouTube, but there's a bunch of him on my Twitch, I was one of the first people to stream Mewtwo and Roy after they were revealed. And I have a lot of Squirtle everywhere, ill post links when I get home from work later
 

GenericName

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
94
Samus is a pretty good secondary.

Or if you're feeling ballsy, Gannondorf :D. Dat Flame Choke so gud
 

Zwarm

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
6,705
Location
Mount Prospect, IL
Are any of your squirtle or mewtwo fights on youtube?
Here's like 6 hours of me playing, mostly Mewtwo. This was right after Mewtwo was announced, so it's not the same build as 3.0 Mewtwo, but you get the idea I think. http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/470268333

And like 4 more hours of more Mewtwo haha http://www.twitch.tv/syzygygaming/b/471160580

And Squirtle stuff I have posted on the video thread a bunch, I can relink it all if you want, but I would prefer not to haha
 

GenericName

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
94
It's not that I don't want to learn the matchup, I just want more options against an opponent who may be much better than me. I'd like to have a secondary who is good in every aspect that Squirtle is bad at for coverage purposes.

Perhaps Ivysaur?
Samus is your friend

I also watched some of your fight against that Meta Knight.

You didn't use enough bubble <.< Shame.

Shellslinging into a really low bubble is hardcore , and tripping just kinda ruins MK's day.

I think something with bubble prevents you from using it and moving backwards at the same time. Every time i've used it, Squirtle sort of floats in a straight line for a short distance in the direction I air bubbled, but never backwards even if he has momentum in that direction. Someone should test with me to see if i'm not just imagining this
 

Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,167
Location
Phoenix, AZ
That's definitely not true. If I SS bubble without reversing it I'll do it while moving backwards with no problem. It's possible to reverse b-reverse bubble as well, which often sends you backwards (depends on the direction of your intital momentum).

It may subtract/reduce backwards momentum, but it doesn't completely nullify it.
 

Sir Skaro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Las Cruces, NM
Can you shell shift out of a moon walk? Is the ability to shell shift based on distance or of time in the dash animation?
 

Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,167
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Theoretically, I dont see why not. Shellshift is just a turnrun that you can pivot to cancel. You'd just need to be in your running animation for at least a frame after the dash animation from the moonwalk ends.
 

Sir Skaro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Las Cruces, NM
When do you enter your running animation in a moonwalk? It looks like the only animation in a moonwalk is the dash animation.
 
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Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,167
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Right, I'm not saying input the SS during that part of the moonwalk, that obviously wouldn't work. I'm saying end the moonwalk in a run by flicking the direction forwards at the last possible moment so you still get a backwards slide and a run, THEN shellshift as soon as your run starts. If you do any of this with anything less than near-perfect timing it probably won't work.
 
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Sir Skaro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Las Cruces, NM
Gotcha. I've been fiddling around with moonwalking with Squirtle and trying to implement it in my game. So far all I've used it for is a quick fake out. Dash forward, moonwalk, bated a move, then dash attacked. Not really that good, but I've pulled it off a few times. Though if I could SS out of it it could suddenly be a much more viable fake out. Does anyone know the frame data concerning Squirtle's dash -> running animation for 3.02?
 

Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,167
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Also, he can moonwalk out of SS. Gives his moonwalk a pretty considerable boost, almost sanic length if you get the timing for it perfect.
 
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Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,167
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I will next time I'm together with my buddy that records. I dont have any of the software myself. Should be pretty soon though, I'm on spring break right now.
 
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JOE!

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
8,075
Location
Dedham, MA
Just picked up squirtle, and I gotta say...



When you get in on somebody it feels kinda like this, and it's awesome
 

Burnsy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,167
Location
Phoenix, AZ
What percent tho?

Or was it the close charged watergun hitbox? Cuz that has pretty good knockback
 
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Zwarm

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
6,705
Location
Mount Prospect, IL
Not sure percent, but it was just the quick spray, not charged.

Quick spray has no lag and leads into a lot of stuff if you land it, it's a nice spacing alternative to bubble
 
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