Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[GenericName]

The only time I was able to get that momenum was when I just flicked the cstick for fsmash. When I held to charge it, he would hang at the ledge for a bit then snap to the ledge.

 

[Daftatt]

Been messing around with squirtle's edgeguarding. I have come to the conclusion that shellsling-nair is the single greatest edgeguard in the game. You can launch out as far as you need, and they can't DI it because it just sends you tangential to the to the spin. You also get armor on the nair startup. Just a tip, if you aren't using nair to edgeguard (I'm sure lots of you are) it's WAY better than fair.

 

[Bones0]

Been messing around with squirtle's edgeguarding. I have come to the conclusion that shellsling-nair is the single greatest edgeguard in the game. You can launch out as far as you need, and they can't DI it because it just sends you tangential to the to the spin. You also get armor on the nair startup. Just a tip, if you aren't using nair to edgeguard (I'm sure lots of you are) it's WAY better than fair.

Do you think it's better because of the armor? I use very little nair, but idk the details on the armor so I pretty much always opt to shellsling bair instead of nair. Even if you somehow don't beat their recovery outright with your tail, it will at least trade, and it seems to have much higher KB than nair. Bair also stays out longer allowing me to bair earlier and cover more space as I fall (you can FH your sling and FF the bair quite easily).

 

[Oro?!]

Both are very good for edgeguarding. I have more success with shellshift bair because of how meaty it is, as well as squirtle's tail being intangible and therefore a good hitbox. The plus of nair I feel over bair is more of the lower angle it sends at. If I am edgeguarding from the ledge, I in general prefer nair as well. The lower angle alongside the armor in case you misuse your invincibility frames is a quite nice.

People need to offstage bubble more.

 

[Sir Skaro]

Aerial bubble has so much cool down, so I'm often hesitant to use it. The only time it's "safe" to use an aerial bubble is if your opponent is recovering high or, if below the ledge, you still have your double jump. But if you miss then opponent is almost definitely going to make it back to the stage first. I want to use it more off stage, I feel it's very situational. I agree with you though, it needs to happen more often.

Question though: can a character toadstool out of tumble animation? If you could fling Squirtle offstage like in GenericName's video into toadtooling your opponent (nearly impossible as it may be), I would be willing to send that person a check every day for the rest of their life.

 

[Bones0]

I don't see any real benefit to sliding off stage like that over just shell slinging with a SH.

 

[Sir Skaro]

I don't see any real benefit to sliding off stage like that over just shell slinging with a SH.

There is none, except it would be less expected by your opponent and possibly break their concentration for a bit. It's more for the psyche factor and crowd pleasing. You can't say it wouldn't be hype if you got a toadstool gimp off of that.

 

[Zwarm]

I rediscovered my love for Squirtle last night, expect more results soon

Also I can make a clearer video of what you can do with the silly tumble animation once I get my computer back tomorrow

Also I'm finding other really silly things that I will probably add into the video as well, they could actually be really useful if used right

 

[Oro?!]

I almost won a tournament going all Squirtle. I had to switch for Lazarond (Link) and Kels (Sheik) to ZSS. Other than that I should have some decent videos up soon.

 

[SpiderMad]

Finally replicated it. I guess I was bumping the Zr button on my controller, and managed to hit that grab frame?

Idk. Would only happen when I gave myself room to slide for a bit across the stage.

Anyways, uploading video atm, posting link when it's done

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quxgBfyoSfE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

First manage it about halfway in.
Ipad does sketchy recording

If you pause at 0:45 you see your shield pop up, you were attempting doing it until you accidently just pressed/held Z to get it: cus if you hold Z/L/R that will happen like we said.

The question I want to find out is what happened that made me not able to get the shellsling F-smash facing in the direction I was slinging (the video you made, but the f-smash was in the opposite direction going into the slide) like I once was able to in a few versions ago (and I may have been experimenting with custom controls when I got it). @ TheReflexWonder @cmart

I almost won a tournament going all Squirtle. I had to switch for Lazarond (Link) and Kels (Sheik) to ZSS. Other than that I should have some decent videos up soon.

You needed to know and be able to perform the timings to get another Shell Shift(s) after getting a Shell Shift and you wouldn't have needed to switch off'em unless for Kels if he started takin you to Yoshis with Fox. Also going directly in with a shell shift you got the two different hop heights to mix things up or evade, along with that added in jump to early turn-around thing for 3.0 which is kinda rarely useful sometimes. Lazorond and Scythe (Link/Roy) can get goofed by continues side-bs off a hit and you can follow the techs as well. When he started CC'ing your side-b you should have went for another ASAP side-b instead of aerial (and kind of depending on your % for Armour). But you and Zwarm can keep doin what you're doing cus I'll be fine to use the hidden secret powers of it myself before they know how to deal with it.

 

[MrHazuki]

My set against Prof (Snake) at BEAST4 in Sweden this weekend.
http://www.twitch.tv/irregularjinny/b/503020664 starting at 16:00.
I got 13:th.

 

[Bones0]

My set against Prof (Snake) at BEAST4 in Sweden this weekend.
http://www.twitch.tv/irregularjinny/b/503020664 starting at 16:00.
I got 13:th.

**** Snake.

 

[MrHazuki]

I'm still amazed at getting 3-2 against the best or second best Snake in the world. It is really obvious that he got my number after game 3 (hence the 4-stock in game 4).
As you can see, my playstyle is entirely based on Withdraw. I know how to shellshift but it doesn't fit my style.
I'll try to not WD into shields as much in the future, and if I do, try to move away after hitting the shield.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Withdraw is just generally a better, more useful option than shellshift stuff. It's less work for more results more often than not. "Not using an option" isn't really about playstyle, unless that playstyle is "optimal" or "suboptimal."

 

[MrHazuki]

I don't think using shellshift would help me more than to teach my opponents that I have other options to mixup. In my opinion WD is absurdly good, and the only thing that makes Squirtle viable.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Right, so it isn't about playstyle more than it is what you think is worth using for the best results. Not using Mario D-Tilt, for example, isn't a matter of playstyle.

 

[Zwarm]

It's entirely possible to do well with Squirtle without using withdraw, Oro got 2nd going almost all Squirtle, and he never uses withdraw offensively from what I've seen.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That doesn't necessarily make it optimal, either from Squirtle or his opponents. :x

 

[Zwarm]

Nah I wasn't trying to say that's the optimal way to play, just that it's possible to do well suboptimally

 

[MrHazuki]

Right, so it isn't about playstyle more than it is what you think is worth using for the best results. Not using Mario D-Tilt, for example, isn't a matter of playstyle.

Uhm, what does playstyle mean then? >_>

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Your general style of play. It's less about what moves you use and how you use those moves as a whole.

For example, I think that Squirtle has the most potential played with a very campy playstyle, mostly making the opponent come to you. You can wavedash for defense as well as offense, but campy refers to how you use your moves as a whole, not how often specific moves are used.

 

[MrHazuki]

Ok, so the word "playstyle" isn't what I meant. My "way of playing" is to almost only use withdraw, and shellshifting doesn't fit my "way of playing".

I absolutely disagree about the camping. Squirtle should be on the offense. I can't see him winning anything by letting the opponent come to him first because almost all OoS-options are slow or with small range.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

With proper movement, he shouldn't have to go into his shield much in the first place, IMO.

 

[MrHazuki]

Even if not forced into shield, he doesn't have that much to fend off attackers in any given situation. Bubble, withdraw and spaced bairs are pretty much all I can think of. How would camping work for you?

 

[GenericName]

My set against Prof (Snake) at BEAST4 in Sweden this weekend.
http://www.twitch.tv/irregularjinny/b/503020664 starting at 16:00.
I got 13:th.

Seems to me that you kept faceplanting into his explosives, and thinking you could just tank them or something...Led to much extra %
Instead of using aerials after wd, use another wd. It's great.

Moar air bubble. Grounded bubble is magikarp. Pretty sure that if you air bubble someone from a close distance the bubbles prevent them from actually touching the ground, so they cant tech. Which means you can wd or fast fall and use dtilt to pop them up.

I found something interesting too. You can actually turn around as you pop up from a wd hit, and stay with the opponent as they fall

 

[MrHazuki]

Thank you for the reply. I'm trying to get more seriously into PM.

This was the first time I faced someone I couldn't just run over with WD. My reflex after bumping his shield was always to bair, which is why he got so many OoS Up-B -> aerial. I should have tried to get away and strike back with, as you said, another WD. Prof adapted to my playstyle and hence 4-stocked me in game 4, though I would like to john that FoD is a terrible stage for (at least my) Squirtle.
Airbubble is amazing. I'll start using it more.
The turnaround WD-hit on shield could lead to bubble, which is an insane amount of pressure. Will absolutely try that. :D

 

[GenericName]

FoD is weird if you wd alot. It's pretty great for air bubbles though.

Idk if anyone else loves Yoshi's island as much as I do though. Fair is sexy on that stage

 

[MrHazuki]

I try to keep away from stages with tilting edges (except YS for no apparent reason) since a mistimed WD of the edge will fly too far and get me gimped/hogged.

 

[GenericName]

Tilted edges are the best thing ever. Dsmash loves them.

I'm also thinking of dubbing the act of WDing someone back and forth Carrying, because why not. Squirtle needs new terms. (As in you WD, and when you land you're able to WD back in the opposite direction without the opponent being able to act. There was a gif of it being done to ZSS earlier)

It's freaking great too. So much great about Squirtle. Trolol.

 

[SpiderMad]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/60b8d6ebd8d010fef3165bbf560eb8bc/tumblr_myykreOe7i1rsw3j1o3_500.gif
http://rottingcat.tumblr.com/tagged/compilation 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbG8Mpt_2iw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7JsFY-5kow&list=PLovBMkMLex7wTISMgGxSMBt7vcLpeX4Gs

 

[Zwarm]

Am I the only one who keeps thinking wavedash when I see withdraw shortened to WD?

 

[MrHazuki]

Nope. On the Squirtle-boards I guess WD is more discussed than wavedash, thus WD = WD and wavedash = wavedash.

 

[Zwarm]

I guess I've just been playing smash too long

 

[MrHazuki]

Who hasn't?

Quick question: Does anybody know where to go to get alternative skins for Squirtle? I have been calling pink Squirtle a fetus for a long while, and it would be really fun to have. Preferably not a hyperrealistic skin, because that would be gross.

 

[GenericName]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/60b8d6ebd8d010fef3165bbf560eb8bc/tumblr_myykreOe7i1rsw3j1o3_500.gif
http://rottingcat.tumblr.com/tagged/compilation 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbG8Mpt_2iw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7JsFY-5kow&list=PLovBMkMLex7wTISMgGxSMBt7vcLpeX4Gs

Exaxtly.

And the brawl vault.

 

[Oro?!]

In my opinion, there is a positive correlation between people beating withdraw and withdraw spam (obviously). I don't think the move is very good and the armor can be destroyed in some matchups at absurdly low %'s. For instance, MK nair will knock you out of withdraw at like 15%, and his SHFFL nair is low enough to hit a grounded Squirtle. Getting crouch cancelled for using withdraw is also terrible. I would rather not give Roy a free dtilt, Peach a free dsmash, and probably other absurdly good things that other good characters can do (anyone who has a good grab game can CC grab).

This means that if I am using withdraw I must
1) Have my opponent at a high enough % where they cannot CC->punish
2) Must be at a low enough % where I cannot be knocked out of armor
3) Weep over the fact that I am not able to dash dance, wavedash, shellshift, or use good attacks while I am using withdraw

Withdraw spam is the most common thing I see from Squirtles and it is the reason I thought he was as bad for as long as I did.

 

[Zwarm]

I'm sorry I make Squirtle seem bad

 

[GenericName]

In my opinion, there is a positive correlation between people beating withdraw and withdraw spam (obviously). I don't think the move is very good and the armor can be destroyed in some matchups at absurdly low %'s. For instance, MK nair will knock you out of withdraw at like 15%, and his SHFFL nair is low enough to hit a grounded Squirtle. Getting crouch cancelled for using withdraw is also terrible. I would rather not give Roy a free dtilt, Peach a free dsmash, and probably other absurdly good things that other good characters can do (anyone who has a good grab game can CC grab).

This means that if I am using withdraw I must
1) Have my opponent at a high enough % where they cannot CC->punish
2) Must be at a low enough % where I cannot be knocked out of armor
3) Weep over the fact that I am not able to dash dance, wavedash, shellshift, or use good attacks while I am using withdraw

Withdraw spam is the most common thing I see from Squirtles and it is the reason I thought he was as bad for as long as I did.

While all those things would work, an Air Bubble into WD will solve them in Squirtle's favor pretty quick...
You can easily hit a CC with a bair after WD.
The only real bad thing about WD is that grounded aqua jet puts him into helpless for some stupid reason.

But on a side note, you can Withdraw carry most characters at about 30-40%. From there, you can usually get to 70-90% until it shifts into forward only withdraws, which continues into offstage.

Also, i found out how to reverse yourself during a wd hit. You have to turn around and hit the opponent while in the turning animation. You should just sort of pop up and not travel that far. Or you may still travel with the foe. Cant remember atm.

 

[Oro?!]

Good CC options like those I mentioned will hit you before you can Bair or do anything for that matter after withdraw.

Withdraw is definitely better as a tech chase option after you have already secured a first hit, but that is not how people use it. Unfortunately against good DI or people actually teching, there is much to be desired from Withdraw.

Bubble->Withdraw really only works if you read their tech, and to be honest I would rather dair or dsmash someone if I know where they will tech after bubble. Grab is definitely better than withdraw off of Bubble as well. Bubble is pretty good in neutral, but it's not extraordinary.

 

[MrHazuki]

Strongly disagree with Oro. You only have to be smarter. Use withdraw as you would use a dropkick. Shorthopping into your opponent while in WD will give them less time to strike back before you have gotten away. You can play against a solid Peach with withdraw only and never get dsmashed, if you just use it right. The armor is not nearly as important as the speed/surprise.