Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[Burnsy]

It has lag, but its definitely not much, especially compared to charged versions.

 

[Sir Skaro]

I often use uncharged water gun as a reset, but to gain/keep some aerial space.

Concerning hitboxes, am I correct in saying that all of the hitboxes on up-air only knock the opponent upwards? I think that it would be a huge help if the few hitboxes on the inside of Squirtle's tail at the latter end of the animation hit horizontally. Thoughts?

 

[didds]

How do you guys get most of your kills? I find that I have trouble getting guaranteed ko's outside of D Throw/F Throw --> Fair mixup and the occasional random hydroplane usmash. Are there any other good setups other than these and off stage gimping?

Edit: I understand that KO power isn't one of squirtle's crazy perks, but I'm just curious if I'm missing something. I see a character like fox or lucas who seem to have a lot of ways to lead into a kill and then I see squirtle and he seems a little lackluster in that regard. Our mobility is nice, but it's not that much better than someone like fox, if it even is better.

 

[Burnsy]

Of all the places to say Squirtle is lacking, I never understood the complaint that he lacks kill options. He can kill with fair, nair, uair, offstage/close boundary bair, fsmash, usmash, bubble, up-b and he has combos and setups leading into all of these options.
As someone who understands Lucas thoroughly I can say that
1. Most people dont know how to fight him
2. When I play against people who do, getting off KO moves is not noticably easier than it is with Squirtle. Also, in some ways its actually harder for Lucas because its safer for Squirts to throw around some of his kill moves in neutral than it is for Lucas, who often NEEDS to combo into his kill move.

 

[didds]

I may have been quick to say, and I'm not trying to complain as much as just gather some insight on where I might be lacking. I just happened to get wrecked by a lucas this past weekend, who also was just a much higher caliber player so it just made everything seem so much worse for me. I should be able to get some videos up soon so that'll help with analyzing my game. And do you know if Lucas is bad off stage? I thought that's where I'd win the matchup, but he had an answer for each of my attempted gimps and edgeguards.

Edit: and yea, I have no clue how to fight lucas. Most encounters went something like, "bait, try to approach, get cc'ed, lucas crazy, shiny, magic hands combo ending in bair spike or usmash, me pondering what went wrong as I become a star." I think a lot of my improvement will come from learning better DI, it seemed like I was DI'ing exactly where he wanted me mid combo.

 

[Burnsy]

Its fine, I just hear that a lot so I wanted to make sure I mentioned my skepticism of that so called weakness of his.

Lucas has a lot of options to mix up his recovery that you need to be aware if you plan to gimp him. He can do a lot of things on reaction to stop you, so no, I wouldn't say he's bad offstage at all. Gimping him with Squirtle is gonna rely on strong reads and surprise shellsling aerials. He's very comboable though, you should be exploiting that for sure.

 

[didds]

Do you think squirtle even has any bad matchups? not like a 45-55, but anything worse. It seems to me that no one completely shuts him down.

 

[Burnsy]

A good Metaknight that realizes how bad our techrolls suck, especially against his dthrow, is probably close to the 40-60 range.

If you're getting CC'd dude then mixup between dair, dsmash, dtilt, and grab. Squirtle should punish CCers, not be punished by them

 

[didds]

Then it's definitely just how I'm playing, I need to use dair and grab more, I use way too much bubble and nair.

 

[Burnsy]

Bubble is a good anti cc solution as well, forgot that one.

DI certainly helps against Lucas, like with anyone, but don't underestimate his combo capabilities. Even with good DI Lucas tends to have followups, they're just less devastating than his bad DI followups. You need to not let him get that first hit, as he struggles more with landing the first hit in neutral than he does with following DI.

 

[didds]

I'll definitely work on it, thanks for the advice, all good stuff. I'm gonna try to get some videos up soon, so I can get some more specific advice.

 

[Player -0]

For kills I would go for dash dancing + random shellsling Nairs. Also fish for the SS hitbox so you can lead into Up Smash. I feel like Squirtle doesn't have a ton of killing problems.

If you're on a decent sized stage and against a semi bad mobility character you can throw out kill moves while staying slippery with all the hydroplane things. Just play super slippery and unpredictable. You can even mix stuff up like Shellsling -> Turnaround B Watergun charge -> Shield to cancel charging -> Fair. Or Shellshing -> B-Reverse Watergun -> Cancel charge with shield -> Withdraw.

Even crazy stuff like Shellsling F-Smash, which puts you at a distance after even hitting a shield.

 

[Burnsy]

I think you meant hydroplane fsmash. Shellsling is the jump cancel outta shellshift.

While I'm on the subject of terminology, people also should start making the "reverse hydroplane" distinction when talking about the commonly used one where you fsmash in the opposite direction you are moving with the shellshift. We distinguish reverse hydroplane when talking about usmash and there is a way of fsmashing in the same direction as your hydroplane so it would be helpful for reading and understanding your posts.

 

[Player -0]

Typed the wrong thing, was attempting to barrel roll.

Edit - For some of the shellslings I meant the one where you run forward at your opponent and then pivot and jump out of the pivot animation so you're hurtling toward the opponent with your back to them. Not the one with the pivot then jump the new direction.

 

[Burnsy]

O_O video .

Sorry this took so long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezUCGDgy_3k
I do some moonwalks at :10. They can go a bit further, only the third one was decent, but it was late and my buddy was just about to pack up when I remembered to record (/johns). Still, you can tell from the 3rd one that well executed it goes quite far. The input is to do a SS input and keep holding in the SS direction, then quickly dash and moonwalk when you are at the 2nd part of SS with the most momentum.

I do a few other things in the video:

@ :03 I demonstrate a pivot cancel out of SS into standing neutral. The slide's speed is due to the timing: it could have gone further, but Squirtle's SS momentum sort of works on a curve; it builds up to a point and then drops off, so you actually have a bit of control over the distance of your slide (just like with hydroplane smashes). The input for this technique is tricky: after doing a normal SS input, you need to quickly move the control in the direction opposite your slide without initiating a dash, then let go of the stick momentarily to allow it to enter neutral. If done correctly you will cancel straight out of your SS rather than get a dash or the normal SS ending animation, and depending on your timing you may get anywhere between no slide and whats essentially a super wavedash.

@ :18 I show some dash cancel crawl reverse stuff with Squirtle. If you dash cancel, start holding down-back on the stick for a moment, then allow let the stick return to neutral, you can use the first few frames of your crawl to reverse your dash momentum and slide backwards out of your dash. This can allow for tricky pressure mix-ups where you dash in and hit their sheild, while sliding away to avoid their sheild grab. Natually, it works with all of his tilts and fsmash slides backwards as well. Also, @ :27 I show how dash cancelling can be a quick way to increase the effective length of your fsmash by a training room unit by dash cancelling first.

 

[SpiderMad]

How about trying voice-overs for videos to convey the explanation better? I've been trying to do that but I always got an amazing song to put on'em

 

[Burnsy]

How about trying voice-overs for videos to convey the explanation better? I've been trying to do that but I always got an amazing song to put on'em

Because, I just wanted to make a quick thing to show what's possible and give a rough idea of its execution. I dont own the capture software so my buddy just put this together based on what I told him to do. If you want a Spidermad version of the video with picture-in-picture controller shots you'll have to figure it out yourself, I won't be able to find time to do it until I have my own recording stuff..

 

[Sir Skaro]

Burnsy, concerning the pivot cancel, you can get 4 to 5 times that distance another way. While holding an attack input (I set mine to L), SS and flick the C stick at a 45 degree angle up and away from the direction you are going to be headed after the SS. This resets Squirtle into a standing animation while keeping all of his momentum. This works when just normally standing too. You can get across 3/4th of FD if done properly.

 

[Zwarm]

I'm still thinking of making a video showing some of the small things I've learned with Squirtle that I don't think I've seen anyone else use before. ETA, maybe tomorrow?

 

[Burnsy]

Burnsy, concerning the pivot cancel, you can get 4 to 5 times that distance another way. While holding an attack input (I set mine to L), SS and flick the C stick at a 45 degree angle up and away from the direction you are going to be headed after the SS. This resets Squirtle into a standing animation while keeping all of his momentum. This works when just normally standing too. You can get across 3/4th of FD if done properly.

I'm aware, but that's only because you are using the c-stick to buffer the pivot inputs, and although for some it may be easier to execute, its also more difficult to control your distance (I think there are even distances you aren't able to get). It's also limited in that you need to be holding an attack input and cstick to do it, rather than just the control stick.

Pivot cancelling manually you can get long distances, short distances, no distance. In my opinion it's better to learn how to do it both with the button combo and with the manual stick input to have more control over your slide and thus your overall movement. You shouldn't want to go full distance every time.

Also, trying to hit that perfect 45 degree angle with the cstick on most controllers is pretty jank.

 

[Sir Skaro]

Pivot cancelling manually you can get long distances, short distances, no distance. In my opinion it's better to learn how to do it both with the button combo and with the manual stick input to have more control over your slide and thus your overall movement. You shouldn't want to go full distance every time.

Also, trying to hit that perfect 45 degree angle with the cstick on most controllers is pretty jank.

I agree that it can be quite hard to hit the 45, but that doesn't mean it can't be consistently done. You can control your distance using that method too, getting all the distances you mentioned. I guess it works for me because I changed my controller scheme to specially fit ticks like these.

 

[seven7xenon]

Hi, pretty noob question but I just started learning squirtle, is there a post or thread explaining comprehensively how his side - b works, like how to cancel it etc.? Thanks.

 

[Sir Skaro]

Hi, pretty noob question but I just started learning squirtle, is there a post or thread explaining comprehensively how his side - b works, like how to cancel it etc.? Thanks.

I'm unaware of any such post. But unlike Brawl it is not limited to one direction now. You can change directions twice, though your second change of direction will cause the move to end shortly after you turn around. It also ends if you head in one direction for too long. This only applies to ground distance though, Squirtle cannot automatically stop his side B (or Withdraw) while airborne. If you are using Withdraw airborne for a longer than the distance that Squirtle can normally go in Withdraw on the ground, then the second you hit the ground Squirtle will automatically exit Withdraw. You can also flick up on the joy stick to jump while in Withdraw to do a small hop. To manually cancel Withdraw, just press B again. You can do this while on the ground or in the air. Something that the PMBR (Project M Back Room, the developers of Project M, in case you didn't know) implemented was the move Aqua Jet. While in Withdraw, you can press A or flick the c-stick to use Aqua Jet, which is a very fast, powerful attack. Be careful, as it puts you into helpless state as you fall. You can flick the C-stick in the opposite direction to slightly shift the hit-box and make Squirtle face the other direction when he falls.

Some other notable things about Withdraw are that you cannot grab the ledge while in the animation. You will just bounce off the wall/ledge. If this happens, you can quickly use Aqua Jet and have a change the grab the ledge or shimmy onto the stage. If you hit the wall in Withdraw, it does not change the direction Squirtle is facing. If you hit an opponent in Withdraw, you will exit the Animation and be popped up slightly above your opponent, even if your opponent is shielding. From there you are just in your normal falling state, so you can do basically anything you want after hitting someone with Withdraw.

That covers the basics I think. It's a fantastic move, but you don't want to use it too much because it's easily punishable and a horrible approach from far away. Just because a move is good doesn't mean you want to use it a lot.

 

[seven7xenon]

Ah thanks, that answered pretty much everything. Just one more thing, if you roll off the stage with withdraw (if you were on the ground before) is there any way you can get back on to the stage? Aqua jet will just make you fall to your death right?

 

[Burnsy]

Just press B as soon as you see yourself go off with it. The aerial cancel doesnt take very long to get you out of it. If you are late doing that, try to get back for a wall cling if you are able. With Squirt's recovery length an accidental side-b off the stage is always salvagable unless you get edgeguarded.

 

[seven7xenon]

Ah nice, I didn't realise you could air cancel as well as ground cancel, thanks for the help.

 

[PlateProp]

Does anyone else JC grabs out of SS? The range boost is insane

 

[didds]

Oh yea, it's long. I'm trying to get the timings right so I can have like endless possibilities with grab range.

 

[Sir Skaro]

I've found that to get the most distance out of the JC grab you want to start your jump as late as possible out of SS. I believe this is quite a few frames after Squirtle exists his shell but still retains his momentum. You can slide about the same distance as when you charge your upsmash (a little less). Unfortunately the grab frames are not active for the entire hydroplane. I've found this technique most useful in punishing tech flubs, post-baited get-up, and punishing shielding after some conditioning. Grab armor combined with this JC is insanely unfair, as I've armored through smash attacks and Falco lasers and still got the grab.

I've found that a great mixup for the JC grab is the hydroplane downsmash, as it has armor, does good damage (with amazing followups and a good chance of shield stabbing), and is pretty darn safe if used correctly. Use it too often and your opponent will just shield it and punish you. That's when you go back to the grabbing or other hydroplane attack. Basically, utilize all available shenanigans effectively and you'll go far. I guess that's with all characters though.

 

[Zwarm]

I'm having a lot of trouble finishing off kills lately against heavier characters. I can rack damage just fine, but when it comes to closing out the kill, I always have a hard time landing the hit. Up Smash is way too predictable, even when DACUS'd or whatever you wanna call the running one, or doing the shell shift version, and its hard to combo into fair or up smash at higher percents.

Any advice? Case in point: http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/515363175 1:24:20

Nevermind the dumb suicides haha

 

[Player -0]

I'm having a lot of trouble finishing off kills lately against heavier characters. I can rack damage just fine, but when it comes to closing out the kill, I always have a hard time landing the hit. Up Smash is way too predictable, even when DACUS'd or whatever you wanna call the running one, or doing the shell shift version, and its hard to combo into fair or up smash at higher percents.

Any advice? Case in point: http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/515363175 1:24:20

Nevermind the dumb suicides haha

I'd say go for more grabs and get them offstage. Use more grabs instead of just aerials and stuff. Down throw/F-Throw mixup, not sure if you can get anything off Up-Throw.

Also for your edgeguarding I think you did well with fairing DDD away if he went to recover high but if he is recovery from below the stage then watch him and when he starts the Up-B do a drop down Nair (Does Bubble work?). You didn't seem to be able to get any good edgeguards in. Try staying closer to the stage with characters that can just go high with a good Up-B (DDD) and save shellslinging for characters like Marth/Samus (If they're bomb recovering) unless you're feeling it.

Summarize my edgeguarding thingy - Be more reactionary with the edgeguards, you were doing a lot of edgehop nairs but Ripple just stalled with his jumps, you should've waited for him to Up-B and then Naired him out of it. If DDD is at a 45 degree ish angle below the stage then he HAS (I think) to Up-B towards the stage with forward momentum, this only works if DDD has no jumps or goes for an early Up-B but that's his only option (I think).

Overall - Don't go off the stage too much if you keep missing the shellslings

Speculation ftw.

 

[PlateProp]

Zwarm, I watched some of your WDW matches with SeeSaw and Scythe. And I noticed that one area they got you pretty much every time was when you used Aqua Jet to recover on the stage. You used it even when you were really close and didn't have a need to do it. You should try using Bubble instead, cause it sends Squirtle on a straight horizontal path usually, and the Bubble itself will keep people from being able to rush your front, giving you a bit more reaction time

 

[QraQ]

Who else feels like Squirtle is really hard to be consistent with? His tech eludes me at the worst times. SHELLSLING OFF EDGE-GUARD THO!

New Squirt taunt: Hold "attack" and dash while continually pressing C-stick down. The hop animation and sound are enough to piss the most composed player off!

 

[Burnsy]

Who else feels like Squirtle is really hard to be consistent with? His tech eludes me at the worst times. SHELLSLING OFF EDGE-GUARD THO!

New Squirt taunt: Hold "attack" and dash while continually pressing C-stick down. The hop animation and sound are enough to piss the most composed player off!

Noticed this again about a month or so ago. I need to start doing it when I I take stocks.

 

[didds]

it doesn't help that squirtle loves to self destruct and die in three hits... and that his techs suck... not a character you want to mess up with

 

[Zwarm]

I've actually been very good about not suiciding lately, but I always seem to do it against Ripple without fail :/

Thanks for the advice, guys. I definitely need to remember to grab more, I'm not sure why that's such an issue for me with Squirtle and not any other character

 

[didds]

I'll probably start seeing more success when I play with all 4 stocks

 

[Zwarm]

I definitely have lost close sets because I've only had 2 or 3 stocks due to my own stupidity, so I know the feels

 

[didds]

It's a strange kind of discouraging, on one hand ya think, "well I coulda won, I guess." On the hand that matters though, ya lost :/

 

[QraQ]

I've actually been very good about not suiciding lately, but I always seem to do it against Ripple without fail :/

Thanks for the advice, guys. I definitely need to remember to grab more, I'm not sure why that's such an issue for me with Squirtle and not any other character

I think because it's so easy to be mobile at all times with Squirtle that grabbing just loses it's importance.