Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
I've definitely been practicing my wavedash out of pivot for max speed! It's just that hydroplaned Dsmash can go REALLY far, so it would be nice to do reliably someday.
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Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)
- Thread starter McNinja
- Start date
Burnsy
Smash Lord
What I am talking about IS a hydroplane dsmash. Technically its a hydroplane by itself followed by dsmash, but ideally you dsmash frame 1 after your pivot, so its not really different. It can go just as far if you time it right, but it isn't limited to the same distance every time. It's just an execution method that manually inputs the pivot and dsmash rather than buffering pivot>dsmash using a 45 degree angle on the cstick. Not sure if you caught that. Simply put; if you can empty hydroplane, then you can hydroplane any move.
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Jamwa
Smash Champion
How is this pivot performed?
Sir Skaro
Smash Apprentice
Squirtle isn't limited to the same distance every time using the downsmash hydroplane. You can time when to use the C-Stick out of SS to control the distance just like with any of this other Smashes or his JC grab. If one can't consistently do the downsmash hydroplane, you're method is a great alternative. However, I would argue that it's harder to control distance using your method and the downsmash comes out more slowly, and it's more readable. With the downsmash hydroplane, you are interrupting the SS with the downsmash, giving you more time traveling in downsmash (or charging it for that matter), as opposed to having some neutral position frames in there. If the maximum distance is achieved, Squirtle can actually finish downsmash with some momentum, so you're still sliding when you go back into neutral for extra slipperiness. I'm not sure if your method has enough time for Squirtle to do this.
You're method is good, but again, I would argue that it takes a back seat to the true downsmash hydroplane.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
The downsmash only comes out slowly if you input it slowly, but I see your point. The thing is, pivot cancelling shellshift has many other uses outside of trying to hydroplane moves, so I think regardless of the hydroplane method you want to use, it should be learned at least for its combo, pressure, movement applications and more.
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Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
I'm learning! I thought the time where this could happen on the squirtle boards was long gone! woo!
Burnsy
Smash Lord
This character has a lot to offer, if more people experimented I think there would be more useful discoveries like this.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
To Get the Longest Wavedash Your Control Stick Has To Be Horizontal Enough to Make Squirtle Walk, His Walk Will Also Maintain More Slide Out of Wavedash Compared To a Crawl
GoblinGamerKid
Smash Cadet
So I dont main squirtle at all but I had an idea for him recently
what are some general things that squirtle has and how technically demanding is he?
Squirtle is one of those characters that I know near nothing with..
what are some general things that squirtle has and how technically demanding is he?
Squirtle is one of those characters that I know near nothing with..
~Dad~
part time gay dad
Read through the threads, it doesn't take long.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
Squirtle is literally the most technically demanding character in P:M at the moment. You need near frame perfect accuracy with timing and consistently exact positioning on the control stick and c-stick to pull off his huge array of advanced techniques, which at higher level play are a requirement for a successful neutral and punish game.
This is the input sequence for his hydro-grab, an incredibly important technique that allows squirtle to punsh get-up attacks and nearly all whiffed moves that go out within a half FD's length away from him. It's probably one of the first ATs that you should practice the timing for with squirtle.
(shellshift)Then cancel the ending animation of the turnaround with
(jump)Now that you have the momentum from the shellshift cancel in your jumpsquat animation
You need to cancel your jump with a grab.
(grab)This provides an incredibly fast slingshot across the stage while in your grab animation, effectively giving squirtle a grab range nearly 3 times as long as zero suit samus. You can cancel the shellshift animation at different frames for different length hydrograbs. When done consistently your opponent pretty much cannot whiff a ground move or they will get grabbed (it's hilarious!)
also @
Burnsy
I was totally kicking face at my local weekly last night with hydro-pivot into d-smash. Even if they shield you will slide past safely, it's by far squirtle's safest poke IMO. I also had a lot of fun catching characters as they fell. THE GROUND IS NOT A SAFE PLACE AGAINST SQUIRTLE
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PlateProp
Smash Master
I need to practice my Squirtle over the summer...gonna be moving to the city in a few months so I'll hopefully be able to actually participate in P:M there :D
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Player -0
Smash Hero
How do you do the weird shellshine thingy? I can't seem to pull it off very well.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Once you shellshift and you see your shell rebounding in the second direction, you need to quickly swing the control stick in the other direction, but you need to stop in a tilted position rather than move the stick back too far. This way you only get the standing pivot (otherwise you will pivot and then dash, which has it's own uses actually).
Also note that usually, the longer slides comes later in the animation, so if you want to not slide away as much, try to pivot earlier.
Edit: Btw does anyone know why my name is pink and says "Pranked!"? I don't pay attention the that kinda stuff much and it seems kinda odd, I didn't get a notification or do anything wrong to my knowledge...
Also note that usually, the longer slides comes later in the animation, so if you want to not slide away as much, try to pivot earlier.
Edit: Btw does anyone know why my name is pink and says "Pranked!"? I don't pay attention the that kinda stuff much and it seems kinda odd, I didn't get a notification or do anything wrong to my knowledge...
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Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
First off... "Hydro-pivot", just to keep consistency with the names of the other squirtle ATs.
What you should do if you aren't familiar with hydro-planing is you should go into training and set the speed to 1/4, then just shell-shift and look for a little jerk forward as squirtle comes out of the turn-around in his shell. The frames during this boost forward can be canceled to provide huge amounts of momentum. It is during this small frame window that hydro-planing is possible.
Hydro-pivoting is a very very hard hydro-planing technique where you input a standing pivot to cancel the shellshift frames, thereby sliding across the stage facing backwards, you can input any move during this time, but the two most useful are shield and D-smash.
I recommend trying out hydro-planed F-smash first, you just flick the C-stick in the opposite direction of the shellshift as you come out of it, you'll learn the frame window easily by doing this. You can also see how canceling the shellshift animation at certain frames changes how far you slide.
Also @
Burnsy
, I asked Warchamp7 to prank you, just for funsies. It's not a disciplinary thing whatsoever.
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Burnsy
Smash Lord
Well, keep in mind that you can actually pivot a lot sooner than this so that it doesn't create as much of a slide and gives you a way to cancel the SS hitbox into attacks/evasion right away. I think that's why he phrased it as shellshine, and why my explanation is slightly different than yours in terms of when the pivot is input (I wanted to say this in case our different explanations confused you, Player-0).
Really though the technique deserves a name or term or something, its soooo useful for pressure/mindgames and since you do it without getting a big slide "hydroplane" doesn't make much sense. What else would you call it?
Also, the pranked thing is actually pretty funny. Ya got me
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Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
OHHHHHHHH... ShellShank
.
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Player -0
Smash Hero
So Shellshank () / Shellshine is Hydropivoting but with no distance pretty much?
) / Shellshine is Hydropivoting but with no distance pretty much?
PlateProp
Smash Master
Does anyone else spot dodge backwards after shellshifting? I'm wondering how effective it would be for mind games.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Pretty much. I don't think there exists a timing where he doesn't slide at all, but there are timings where he barely slides and then can follow up the shell hit with most of his moves.So Shellshank (
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Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
I find that a lot of accidental things I do trying to pull off turn into options that I use. For instance when I was trying to learn hydro-grabbing a lot of the time I would just shell-sling over people (didn't cancel the jumpsquat fast enough). But in reality that IS the complimentary option to a hydro-grab, since if they see a hydrograb coming they could throw out their own grab box (assuming it's larger than squirtle's), or throw out a hitbox to stop squirtle. But if you shellsling over them it avoids both these options and you can bubble or withdraw into them from the air behind.
Similarly this hydro-pivot business has me rolling out of shellshift all the time, but it's actually a really great fakeout. One thing about squirtle is that people don't like approaching his shellshift because of all the nutty options he has out of it, so they wait and see if they can catch him with a hitbox, or just jump to avoid things (which is funny when you hydroplane upsmash). But if you roll out of shellshift it throws them off and maybe even puts them out of position, as well as being a completely safe (almost always) option for squirtle.
Got into PM recently and Squirtle (with dat Koopa alt) caught my eye. I like absurdly fast characters, so he and Sonic have really caught my eye.
Not sure of Squirtle's a good "First" pick since I'm only getting the hand of ATs and he seems very technically demanding, but gotta start somewhere I guess.
Not sure of Squirtle's a good "First" pick since I'm only getting the hand of ATs and he seems very technically demanding, but gotta start somewhere I guess.
Sir Skaro
Smash Apprentice
I'm going to a tournament on Saturday and I'm probably going to go all Squirtle. Some of it may be streamed, so I'll post the videos here as soon as they become available. If anyone wants to see the live stream it'll be on twitch.tv/smashsiblings this Saturday (21st) around 1 Mountain Time. I'll do my best to represent our slippery friend!
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
I'm running a tournament on the 26th of this month, it won't be streamed but I'll be recording it, so hopefully I can get some good squirtle footage up.
Sir Skaro
Smash Apprentice
I'm really interested in seeing your Squirtle. Do you have any videos up currently?
~Dad~
part time gay dad
I went to a tournament this weekend and totally forgot to play on stream. -__-
I four stocked a guy though so it's all good B)
I four stocked a guy though so it's all good B)
Player -0
Smash Hero
But you didn't do it on stream, UNACCEPTABLE!
~Dad~
part time gay dad
Eh it's okay though.
I'm actually a complete fraud lol
I'm actually a complete fraud lol
~Dad~
part time gay dad
Also Squirtle vs DK seemed reaaal bad for DK.
Sir Skaro
Smash Apprentice
Question: when you guys do a shell sling, do you use the forward jump animation or the backwards jump animation? I use the backwards jump, I think it has better distance an a more confusing animation for those unfamiliar with Squirtle.
GrizzleDrizz1ed
Smash Apprentice
I'm curious what you guys think about where Squirtle stacks up in the tiers. I'm wondering if he needs some changes because it seems like the consensus is that he isn't very viable competitively. I have a hard time believing that because he is capable of a lot, but at the same time he just seems to have a really difficult time coming out on top. I'm not sure if it's because his damage output is so low, he has too few finishing blows, or a mix of both. I know his Kill moves are essentially Dthrow, Dsmash, and Fsmash, while some of his areials can kill, but at really high percents. I've been hearing about his Uair - Up B combo so I'll have to check that out.
But yeah, is Squirtle just too weak? And should he get an adjustment? If so, How?
If this has already been discussed and you don't want to discuss it again, I'd thank you kindly to point me in the direction where the discussion had taken place.
But yeah, is Squirtle just too weak? And should he get an adjustment? If so, How?
If this has already been discussed and you don't want to discuss it again, I'd thank you kindly to point me in the direction where the discussion had taken place.
Jamwa
Smash Champion
Squirtle's fine. He's not top tier, but he isn't at all a bad character.
It's all too easy to fall into the trap of playing Squirtle aggressively and I think that's why he isn't seeing success.
His moveset caters much more towards that of a bait and punish character, and so few people will just Bubble and Water Gun in the neutral position but rather just spam Withdraw.
If played correctly, Squirtle is a reactionary character in my opinion. You play slowly at first to understand the opponents playstyle, and then abuse Squirtle's speed and Armor to get through each character's spacing to secure a lead. The game should from thereon be about constantly changing the pace of your playstyle.
It's all too easy to fall into the trap of playing Squirtle aggressively and I think that's why he isn't seeing success.
His moveset caters much more towards that of a bait and punish character, and so few people will just Bubble and Water Gun in the neutral position but rather just spam Withdraw.
If played correctly, Squirtle is a reactionary character in my opinion. You play slowly at first to understand the opponents playstyle, and then abuse Squirtle's speed and Armor to get through each character's spacing to secure a lead. The game should from thereon be about constantly changing the pace of your playstyle.
Player -0
Smash Hero
I use whichever when I'm spamming my SS Dash Dance, depending on the current position I am in relative to the opponent and based on the position of the platforms and stage.
So basically I just wing it (I do this with all the characters I play).
In MY opinion Squirtle is pretty cool:
- His movement is really hard to master.
- Watergun is kind of awkward to use since it stops Squirtle's amazing movement.
- Down Smash is in the same boat as Watergun, it's amazing but stops the movement.
- Combos are a bit awkward (In my opinion).
- Up Air is like Falco's Up Air and is kind of hard to use in my opinion (I've been told it's awesome but can't really understand it).
- I don't think killing is a problem, he has a Down-Throw and F-Throw Mixup for kills.
- Moves send at a distance in between comboing and killing mainly.
- Throw combos are a bit awkward, combined with moves being inbetween comboing and killing.
Yeah, that's just me rambling randomly.
In general I pretty much play Squirtle like Falcon with more mixups and being able to move from one side of your opponent to the other quickly, making them confused.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
No, but I'll be playing at my local weekly, streamed at twitch.tv/olympiasmashers
We'll be streaming thursday 6:00pm to ... well to whenever (late), so you can drop by and if I'm not playing post in chat and I'll get on.
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Sir Skaro
Smash Apprentice
I would disagree with some of these points. All of Squirtle's grounded moves can be used during a hydroplane. Abusing the Brawl engine, Squirtle can pivot out of a SS to go across about 4/5ths of FD. This includes shielding, spot-dodging, water gun, and downsmash: actions that would usually stop movement can be done while moving distances no other character can travel in one action (excluding glide). However, I rarely ever use water gun while standing. I always use it in the air, as you can change your momentum fairly well mid-animation. If it makes contact and is spaced right, it can be insanely are to punish. An alternative to this is wavedash -> laggy move, since Squirtle can cross FD in three long wavedashes.
Yes, I understand that in order to do this super pivot hydroplane there must be some awkward inputs. However, a lot of Smash is theory. And in theory, a highly-mobile, multi-hit, low-to-the-ground, weak-knockback downsmash is borderline OP for a highly mobile, close-quarters character. I have attempted to cater my controller lay out to optimize all Squirtle's abusable abilities. Squirtle is ridiculously technically demanding, especially if you want to try to abuse every single one of his physics quirks, let alone effectively space with them. Yes, there is a bit of cool-down at the end of every hydroplane, but done correctly it can be hard to punish, if not impossible (I really miss the 2.6 downsmash. That was OP).
I also disagree that Squirtle's up air is like Falco's. Falco's up air has two desirable hitboxes, while Squirtle's has a few more (I would guess 5 or 6) and has invincibility on the tail. The strongest hit boxes are similar to Falco's strong hit box, but Squirtle's up air's weak hit boxes are freaking amazing, though hard to land, unlike Falco's. There is also considerably less cool down, as you can short hop up air and still wave land. I don't think Squirtle is much like Falco in that his omnipresent abilities is not projectile based and Squirtle has no move that has a downward trajectory (besides downsmash on the ledge). I can see how the general, stellar offensive game can be similar, but Squirtle can't really keep an opponent close to himself mid combo like Falco can.
Squirtle has some awkward moves and awkward combos, but every move in his arsenal has its place and every move (even kill moves) can be done at high velocity except for up b. There are no relatively useless moves like Shiek's down b, Jigg's up b, or Luigi's down tilt. The biggest place where Squirtle needs improvement is his poor tech-game. His tech's are extremely slow and easy to follow. This is my opinion though, and most of it is theory, as I have yet to see a player use all of Squirtle's abusable qualities in one play style (but I'm working on it).
Jamwa
Smash Champion
I don't understand how to pivot out of SS, i just jump every time.
was i reading correctly when the inputs were after a SS moving the control stick diagonal up and then completely upwards to perform the pivot? can someone clear up how to do this please
was i reading correctly when the inputs were after a SS moving the control stick diagonal up and then completely upwards to perform the pivot? can someone clear up how to do this please
Sir Skaro
Smash Apprentice
To normally pivot out of SS (shell shift, not shell sling, if I'm getting the lingo incorrect) do a SS and in middle of it, quickly move the analog stick in the opposite direction you are currently moving. If you do a hard input, you will dash, but if you do a soft input, you will pivot and continue with some of your momentum, depending on timing. Burnsy is better at explaining this than I am, as I never use it. I believe he posted about it earlier this discussion.
To do a massive hydroplane with a pivot, you need to be holding an attack input (A, basically). Then, in the middle of the SS, flick the C-Stick at a upward 45 degree angle in the opposite direction that you are moving. Done at the right time, you will keep a massive amount of momentum while standing.
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Jamwa
Smash Champion
It was this post that had me confused, I was trying to input theHey I actually started doing this, it's the most reliable way to slide with D-smash. The pivot input is really tricky though:
It's also an amazing way to slide in with shield since there is no lag (unlike wavedashing in). So hydro-pivot (what we should all call it, not shellshine) is actually really cool, but probably as hard to do consistently as hydroplane-forward-up-smash without tap jump on.
This definitely needs to be in the AT list, it's really cool, and you can control the distance you slide by how much you cross the horizontal neutral over to the direction you face post-pivot.
Another use is to hydro-pivot into bubble if you can b-reversal it, which is an absurdly crazy input sequence.
...We need a new AT thread.
All of this only further shows that squirtle's true neutral game is in a shellshift, and for optimum potential you need to constantly moving around at max speed (wavedash, waveland, shell-sling into waveland,), coming in and out of shellshift. Damn this character has a higher skill ceiling than even I previously thought!
pivot and it just made me jump every time so was getting kinda confused on the actual inputs to pivot. is the C-stick method just a shortcut to doing this?
Player -0
Smash Hero
He probably has tap jump off.It was this post that had me confused, I was trying to input the
For the watergun I was mainly referring to the point that it sent you in the opposite direction you fire when charged.
For Down-Smash and Watergun (charged) you seem to misunderstand me to the point you think I'm saying we (people) shouldn't use those moves. It's quite the opposite, as you stated those moves are amazing. It's just that the moves send you into a decent amount of lag during or after the move which in my opinion skews Squirtle's movement to a predictable trajectory.
For me comparing the two Up-Airs that was me comparing the two in knockback. I'll try to check out the weak hits though, I would only see there being the initial strong hitbox and the one where the tail is falling back and a weaker hitbox. Can you explain some of them?
Looking back and thinking about it more the main awkwardness I think with Squirtle's combo is that moves send up and Squirtle doesn't have super fast vertical movement or big hitboxes. This is probably just me though.
Idk, ramble, ramble, ramble.