Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[Daftatt]

It was this post that had me confused, I was trying to input the pivot and it just made me jump every time so was getting kinda confused on the actual inputs to pivot. is the C-stick method just a shortcut to doing this?

yeah that method of pivoting won't work with tap-jump on. You can just flick across the horizontal neutral to pivot instead

 

[Daftatt]

To do a massive hydroplane with a pivot, you need to be holding an attack input (A, basically). Then, in the middle of the SS, flick the C-Stick at a upward 45 degree angle in the opposite direction that you are moving. Done at the right time, you will keep a massive amount of momentum while standing.

Wat? I'm not sure about this. Is this a forward hydroplane? Or just a normal hydroplane?

 

[Burnsy]

Flicking it to neutral is not technically the way you do it with tap jump off. You flick in the other direction so it goes SLiGHTLY past neutral (just tilt, dont do a dash input).
Sir Skaro, the way you phrased your message makes it seem like you are ignoring the fact that you can still get the same "massive" hydroplane without buffering pivot>smash using the cstick. Its just another input method and you can get shorter distances with this method as well depending on your timing.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Squirtle's fine. He's not top tier, but he isn't at all a bad character.
It's all too easy to fall into the trap of playing Squirtle aggressively and I think that's why he isn't seeing success.
His moveset caters much more towards that of a bait and punish character, and so few people will just Bubble and Water Gun in the neutral position but rather just spam Withdraw.
If played correctly, Squirtle is a reactionary character in my opinion. You play slowly at first to understand the opponents playstyle, and then abuse Squirtle's speed and Armor to get through each character's spacing to secure a lead. The game should from thereon be about constantly changing the pace of your playstyle.

I generally agree with you here. I can see that he has really good potential and very often it's the players fault for SDing. I think that it may be a problem though that people are able to SD so often. One mistake is likely to cost you a stock, and from a game design perspective, that isn't good. A few things that I see are a problem is that it can take awhile to get out of Withdraw, especially when going off the edge. The other is the momentum and freefall from Aqua Jet. The problem that I have with Aqua Jet is that it's Extreamly situational, and if used from the wrong place, you end up SDing. If they made it so you could DI back to the mid point of the attack, (or the peak hight of the move) then it would be able to be used in way more situations, giving him a more viable (and much needed) Kill move.

I like the idea of changing aggro levels to catch opponents off guard. I'll change my mindset to align with that and see how I fair.

 

[Daftatt]

Flicking it to neutral is not technically the way you do it with tap jump off. You flick in the other direction so it goes SLiGHTLY past neutral (just tilt, dont do a dash input).
Sir Skaro, the way you phrased your message makes it seem like you are ignoring the fact that you can still get the same "massive" hydroplane without buffering pivot>smash using the cstick. Its just another input method and you can get shorter distances with this method as well depending on your timing.

For the record, I did say flick ACROSS neutral

I generally agree with you here. I can see that he has really good potential and very often it's the players fault for SDing. I think that it may be a problem though that people are able to SD so often. One mistake is likely to cost you a stock, and from a game design perspective, that isn't good. A few things that I see are a problem is that it can take awhile to get out of Withdraw, especially when going off the edge. The other is the momentum and freefall from Aqua Jet. The problem that I have with Aqua Jet is that it's Extreamly situational, and if used from the wrong place, you end up SDing. If they made it so you could DI back to the mid point of the attack, (or the peak hight of the move) then it would be able to be used in way more situations, giving him a more viable (and much needed) Kill move.

I would argue that the high execution bar is a good thing, particularly in a competitive mod like P:M, like spacies errors can cost you a stock, which makes sense, you need to practice to lower the likelihood of errors. As for SDs from W/draw, I say it's a good thing, the move moves fast and has armor (and is safe when hitting of shields) so the fact that when you use it you need to commit is something that balances the move. As for aquajet I don't find it situational, in many matchups squirtle's waterfall recovery is vulnerable to attacks from above, so returning to stage via sweetspotted aquajet is incredibly useful. Sure it's not a great attacking move but it's not supposed to be since W/draw is already barely balanced in squirtles moveset. Aquajet serves it's designed purpose flawlessly, being that it lets you reverse a bounce if you hit a wall, or lets you punish mario if he tries to cape you (the trick is you aquajet at him after he capes W/draw). Aquajet can SD because it's not designed to be an actual approach option, just a way to avoid an opponents punish, sure ZSS's flipstool isn't a good approach but it is a fantastic evasion option, same idea with aquajet

 

[Jamwa]

I would argue that the high execution bar is a good thing

+1; you've only yourself to blame for SDing.
"If everything's not a blur, you're not going fast enough"

 

[Daftatt]

I'm trying out a new way to practice against CPUs, stock control so you can't make any mistakes.

... I made a mistake.

 

[Sir Skaro]

For the watergun I was mainly referring to the point that it sent you in the opposite direction you fire when charged.

For me comparing the two Up-Airs that was me comparing the two in knockback. I'll try to check out the weak hits though, I would only see there being the initial strong hitbox and the one where the tail is falling back and a weaker hitbox. Can you explain some of them?

Fully charged water gun only gives you momentum in the opposite direction if you leave the analog in the neutral or in the direction that Squirtle's back is facing. If you hold the analog in the same direction Squirtle is facing, you'll just lose most of your momentum, if not cancel it out entirely. I have yet to integrate fully charged water gun into my game. I haven't found too much of a use for it, though I'm sure it has a place, like in recovery maybe. But even then a quick WD could give you the same effect and you'd keep the charged water gun. "Idk, ramble, ramble, ramble."

Yes, the two up airs are similar strong hitboxes. Squirtle's up air has its hitboxes arranged like C. Falcon's or Mario's, in that it's an arc of hitboxes, each with different knock back. However, like Falco's up air, each hotbox has the same trajectory: up. I've found that there are strong hitboxes at the beginning of the animation all the way until the tail reaches about a 90 degree angle above Squirtle's head, then there are a few (I would guess three) weak hitboxes, having less knock back the farther back the tail falls.

 

[Jamwa]

Is it possible to moonwalk with Squirtle (asides from the c-stick a-buffered version) by doing ?

 

[Daftatt]

Is it possible to moonwalk with Squirtle (asides from the c-stick a-buffered version) by doing ?

yes, try doing it out of shellshift

 

[Zwarm]

My stream, Windy City Smash, is live with our weekly Wavedash Wednesday. There are a lot of people here, but I'm gonna try to pull out my rusty Squirtle today on stream. www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash

 

[Daftatt]

A great way to separate the Ice Climbers is to bubble them, then withdraw into them from the air, you should hit only one of them (most of the time), and you and the IC you hit will shoot off from the other allowing you to get them offstage and kill them

 

[~Dad~]

Hey so I actually got some good matches on stream tonight, I'm gonna scrub through the stream and find my games and post some links and such.

Where should I post stuff for critique?

 

[Daftatt]

Hey so I actually got some good matches on stream tonight, I'm gonna scrub through the stream and find my games and post some links and such.

Where should I post stuff for critique?

In the video thread

 

[Daftatt]

Dude, like all this activity on squirtle forums... Are we getting popular? Are we the cool kids now?

 

[Sir Skaro]

I wouldn't say that we are the cool kids as much as we are the early adopters/hipsters of the Smash community. We endure long winters of being unheard of, outcasts, or even laughed at. But then we reap a harvest of popularity and acceptance. Then Squirtle gets nerfed and we start the cycle over.

 

[Daftatt]

I wouldn't say that we are the cool kids as much as we are the early adopters/hipsters of the Smash community. We endure long winters of being unheard of, outcasts, or even laughed at. But then we reap a harvest of popularity and acceptance. Then Squirtle gets nerfed and we start the cycle over.

Lol, don't worry about the next release, the squirtle changes are... manageable.

 

[Zwarm]

Next release: Press more buttons than you already do to be good with Squirtle

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Are the future patch list notes up? Want to see the buff or nerf changes. And only cause skaro said so ( continues on to laugh at squirtle community.)

 

[Daftatt]

Are the future patch list notes up? Want to see the buff or nerf changes. And only cause skaro said so ( continues on to laugh at squirtle community.)

nah, the change log will probably only be released when the next version comes out.

 

[Sir Skaro]

Squirtle wasn't actually nerfed much at all from 2.6b -> 3.0. I honestly feel like what they did to his physics was a buff if anything. I'm just still bitter about the downsmash nerf.

 

[Daftatt]

Squirtle wasn't actually nerfed much at all from 2.6b -> 3.0. I honestly feel like what they did to his physics was a buff if anything. I'm just still bitter about the downsmash nerf.

D-smash is still epic (borderline broken in some matchups) though. I really love the withdraw in the air buff from 2.6 to 3.0, his recovery is insanely improved.

 

[Jamwa]

Is Squirtle being nerfed? or are some of the moves actually being reworked?

 

[Sir Skaro]

His recovery was insanely improved and his downsmash is still amazing, but it had an IASA!! An IASA on any move makes it like 10 times better. Sheik's down B in Melee could even be improved with an IASA! (being facetious). Also the ability to climb vertical walls was taken out. Admittedly, it was broken to climb up walls, but I'm still bitter.

Is Squirtle being nerfed? or are some of the moves actually being reworked?

I have no clue, I was just joking around. I actually agree with everything they did to Squirtle from 2.6b -> 3.0. Just kind of sad about some of it.

 

[~Dad~]

They need to finally give Squirtle a gun.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

They need to finally give Squirtle a gun.

You mean bubble becoming a shine that can be done out of side b. I am sure there is a Pokémon move tutor somewhere.

 

[~Dad~]

Invincibility frames on side b.

 

[Zwarm]

Can we just take a second and think how awesome it would be in Squirtle had a bubble version of shine?

 

[~Dad~]

Can we just take a second and think how awesome it would be in Squirtle had a bubble version of shine?

Dude, wavebubbling.

 

[Zwarm]

PMBR pls

10pls

 

[Daftatt]

PMBR pls

10pls

On a more realistic note, @cmart

withdraw's turnaround is pretty controversial given that players often abuse the move and just stay inside withdraw, leading to a general misunderstanding of how to utilize squirtle's amazing movement.

If squirtle went into shellshift instead of the withdraw turnaround animation (thereby kicking them out of withdraw when they tried to turn), now THAT would be amazing. Using the move everyone spams to teach players about his true neutral game and probably force them to stumble across some advance techniques as well. They would wonder what happened, experiment, maybe even come onto the boards and we'd have an actual 10+ person squirtle community

Also, maybe make the armor on withdraw wear off the longer you're in it, kind of a reverse of wario's side-b

10,000 pls
100,000 pls
1,000,000 pls

 

[didds]

his pls level is over 9,000!

 

[PlateProp]

Let's just start a cult based on advanced Squirtle tech and exclude all the withdraw only people as heretics.

 

[~Dad~]

Let's just start a cult based on advanced Squirtle tech and exclude all the withdraw only people as heretics.

Isn't that what we already do? lol

 

[PlateProp]

Yeah. But we dont call them heretics.



Yet.

 

[Zwarm]

Even more better, @Oro?! Pls

 

[Daftatt]

We pray to the cruel, inattentive, but ultimately benevolent gods of the PMBR, that some day their blessings may fall upon the humble disciples of the order of the shell shift, and that in their blessings a smite upon the heretical withdrawers may come swiftly and in completeness.

And in this aftermath of divine action, may the order of the shell shift breath life and prosperity anew into our collective pursuit of beauty and technical inspiration in our celebrations of the squirtle

 

[PlateProp]

Glory to the Shell!

 

[Daftatt]

Glory to the Shell!

edited from above

 

[Jamwa]

i hope u all enjoi <3