\Apples
Smash Journeyman
I somehow doubt that you play against a really good Marth player.
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Sovereign Penguin -- DDD MU Discussion
- Thread starter 9Kplus1
- Start date
9Kplus1
Smash Master
we be ded
Does anyone have any input on the ROB MU? I'm 100% sure that we take it.
Does anyone have any input on the ROB MU? I'm 100% sure that we take it.
Oracle
Smash Master
lol 9k trying to get the upper hand on me for wifi? We need to actually play then you can make a decision.
9Kplus1
Smash Master
We only played Bowser vs ROB you nut 9.9
Your ROB is free as a bird with jets anyway
Your ROB is free as a bird with jets anyway
DiSQO_BuNNY
Smash Lord
Lold at this
9Kplus1
Smash Master
How do I approach the Sonic MU? It seems impossible to catch a Sonic that has no dignity...
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
It's a scary MU. My own experience in it is limited, but here are the general courses of action that seem most reasonable to me (not making any promises about how effective any of this will end up being in the long term, but brainstorming these things has always been helpful for me):
-Fight from the air. DDD's long jump-squat, slow OoS options, and generally sluggish ground moves make fighting Sonic on the ground in close quarters awkward and difficult, but you're a little more flexible in the air and less vulnerable to Sonic's crazy attributes; I don't think there's much to gain from going particularly high against Sonic, so I'd mostly just hover kind of near the ground and throw out some fairs and dairs depending on positioning. This has some upsides and downsides. A patient Sonic probably is not going to let himself get hit by any aerials you throw out, and just wait for you to land. However, you can still use the air to encroach upon his space if he's playing the waiting game, so some good could still come out of this. Side platforms could make this awkward, but probably not too much since if you've shoved Sonic that far, you can just land and have a positional advantage more or less by default. Landing itself can be scary, though. I wouldn't recommend descending with an aerial either, since he's fast enough to punish aerial landing lag really well. The main things I'd probably try would be landing with a waveland (primarily a backwards one, since if Sonic expects you to land with an aerial, he'll be attacking an empty space and you'd get a free punish) and landing with inhale; I like the former more since I think it'd yield a greater reward on average and is safer. If Sonic starts expecting that and starts rushing deep to punish you, descending with an aerial would be fine; if he just continues to play it safe, you could even try waveland forward to gain more ground on him, but I don't think it's really necessary.
-When it comes to fighting him on the ground, try really hard to not get grabbed or stuck in your shield. If you get caught shielding, I recommend buffering a roll away unless you're really sure you can punish him OoS, but that tends to be difficult on Sonic. The moves I'd probably rely on most for countering approaches would be dtilt and pivot grabs. Maybe uncharged down-B in some circumstances. If Sonic is kind of close to you, but you're confident he won't go in, ftilt is probably good.
-Waddle dash might have some utility in closing ground on him. While my current feeling is still that the technique is overrated in general, being able to move quickly behind a hitbox and little lag afterwards could help a lot in just getting closer to him. My only concern is that Sonic might still be able to just barrel through that anyways. It wouldn't hurt to look into, though.
-Fight from the air. DDD's long jump-squat, slow OoS options, and generally sluggish ground moves make fighting Sonic on the ground in close quarters awkward and difficult, but you're a little more flexible in the air and less vulnerable to Sonic's crazy attributes; I don't think there's much to gain from going particularly high against Sonic, so I'd mostly just hover kind of near the ground and throw out some fairs and dairs depending on positioning. This has some upsides and downsides. A patient Sonic probably is not going to let himself get hit by any aerials you throw out, and just wait for you to land. However, you can still use the air to encroach upon his space if he's playing the waiting game, so some good could still come out of this. Side platforms could make this awkward, but probably not too much since if you've shoved Sonic that far, you can just land and have a positional advantage more or less by default. Landing itself can be scary, though. I wouldn't recommend descending with an aerial either, since he's fast enough to punish aerial landing lag really well. The main things I'd probably try would be landing with a waveland (primarily a backwards one, since if Sonic expects you to land with an aerial, he'll be attacking an empty space and you'd get a free punish) and landing with inhale; I like the former more since I think it'd yield a greater reward on average and is safer. If Sonic starts expecting that and starts rushing deep to punish you, descending with an aerial would be fine; if he just continues to play it safe, you could even try waveland forward to gain more ground on him, but I don't think it's really necessary.
-When it comes to fighting him on the ground, try really hard to not get grabbed or stuck in your shield. If you get caught shielding, I recommend buffering a roll away unless you're really sure you can punish him OoS, but that tends to be difficult on Sonic. The moves I'd probably rely on most for countering approaches would be dtilt and pivot grabs. Maybe uncharged down-B in some circumstances. If Sonic is kind of close to you, but you're confident he won't go in, ftilt is probably good.
-Waddle dash might have some utility in closing ground on him. While my current feeling is still that the technique is overrated in general, being able to move quickly behind a hitbox and little lag afterwards could help a lot in just getting closer to him. My only concern is that Sonic might still be able to just barrel through that anyways. It wouldn't hurt to look into, though.
Btw, something that I picked up recently.
Grabbing a waddle dee in the air with an airdodge gives you a wavedash. This wavedash doesn't matter if its 500 years above the stage or not, it's a long horizontal slide.
If you tilt your control stick at the right angle upwards/forwards in the air, you can toss a waddle dee, and airdodge immediately after and do a near lagless teleport.
It's quite iffy and hard to do consistently (super uber mega tech skill calling fyi).
When it comes to Sonic...
Sonic is an extremely dumb character.
Dedede has no OoS option that isn't grab and all Sonic does is bounce above your grab range aiming at your head.
Sonic hits dedede with a neutral air and he dies at 80, a 5 frame aerial or something with half the length of FD in less than 10 second mobility. Dedede hits sonic with a fully charged fsmash and he survives
Grabbing a waddle dee in the air with an airdodge gives you a wavedash. This wavedash doesn't matter if its 500 years above the stage or not, it's a long horizontal slide.
If you tilt your control stick at the right angle upwards/forwards in the air, you can toss a waddle dee, and airdodge immediately after and do a near lagless teleport.
It's quite iffy and hard to do consistently (super uber mega tech skill calling fyi).
When it comes to Sonic...
Sonic is an extremely dumb character.
Dedede has no OoS option that isn't grab and all Sonic does is bounce above your grab range aiming at your head.
Sonic hits dedede with a neutral air and he dies at 80, a 5 frame aerial or something with half the length of FD in less than 10 second mobility. Dedede hits sonic with a fully charged fsmash and he survives
KOkingpin
Smash Champion
your best bet in the sonic match up is to stay slightly above him. If he jumps or neutral b's at you time your aerials. Down Air and the rising hit box of Forward Air (spaced correctly) are your best friends. Waddles can slow sonic down slightly and having them out as much as possible gives Dedede a lot of mobility. If you get stuck on the ground try and stay within range of your FTilt. Also Dedede's Neutral B beats Sonic's spin dashes.
leelue
Smash Lord
I don't think sonic is going to let you be where you want to be in relationship to him. Not as DDD.
Sonic is really well designed though, it's a good thing I wasn't able to step in and change anything.
200:-100 sonic ddd
How do you play ddd vs ivysaur?
Sonic is really well designed though, it's a good thing I wasn't able to step in and change anything.
200:-100 sonic ddd
How do you play ddd vs ivysaur?
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
I only have limited experience using Ivy, but I imagine you want to avoid getting above Ivy. Her juggling game is pretty decent, and D3 doesn't really have the aerial mobility to disrupt it. Side-b pretty much nullifies Razor Leaf, which could allow opportunities to get in her face. AFAIK (which isn't much), her only strong OoS option is NAir, which shouldn't be a problem with Dedede's massive range. I feel that spacing is important in this match-up. Avoid sweet-spotted DTilt like it's the plague, it's a free combo for Ivy. I think as long as you keep the game below platforms/on FD, D3 wins.
Also, maybe this is just a personal thing, but going off-stage to edgeguard with D3 is generally a good idea. Dude's a damn fighter jet.
/theorycraft
Also, maybe this is just a personal thing, but going off-stage to edgeguard with D3 is generally a good idea. Dude's a damn fighter jet.
/theorycraft
Dedede is the king off stage. He has to put a little more effort into things, like, let's say in comparison to sonic who's broken Ftilt and neutral B nullify a significant majority of the cast's recoveries with just one button pressed without any semblance of timing... but he's still the king of being able to go off stage for things. Waddle dashing from on stage to off stage immediate fair (or bair) smacks people.
Makes me think the metal mario stage is actually probably really good for him. Very small stage area, large boundaries (so you never die), and lots of off stage space for love, and cats. But at the same time, dem slopes and SMALL STAGE AREA sometimes feels like a curse
Makes me think the metal mario stage is actually probably really good for him. Very small stage area, large boundaries (so you never die), and lots of off stage space for love, and cats. But at the same time, dem slopes and SMALL STAGE AREA sometimes feels like a curse
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
I'm personally not a huge fan of that stage, but I do see your point. At the same time though, characters who are fast and have quick moves like ZSS, Sonic, Fox, and the like will pressure our fat penguin friend to no end.
Guess the platform's a pretty good height for utilt/air/smash(?) pressure though..
Guess the platform's a pretty good height for utilt/air/smash(?) pressure though..
Well, Sonic's mobility is probably a bit more of a curse on Metal Mario. ZSS is already an awkward match up for D3 but I think the less space for her is probably better for us here too (who, beyond nair, doesn't really want to be anywhere near Dedede at all, CAMP CAMP CAMP CAMP CAMP).
The gist here is that any one single successful hit or throw from D3 is putting someone off stage. Slopes are sometimes helpful for waddle hijynx (if you're on higher ground and elevator shaft waddle throw in front of you, then it's effective wall is also below you too / waddle bouncing). The BIG ISSUE is that the stage is too small for you to easily waddle pluck.
The gist here is that any one single successful hit or throw from D3 is putting someone off stage. Slopes are sometimes helpful for waddle hijynx (if you're on higher ground and elevator shaft waddle throw in front of you, then it's effective wall is also below you too / waddle bouncing). The BIG ISSUE is that the stage is too small for you to easily waddle pluck.
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
Ahh okay, I can dig it. The angles on the stage still kind of throw me off, even though I'm sure they're not really hindering my mobility at all.
Any thoughts on Snake? I know in Brawl it's frequently debated who wins, and both characters have retained their basic attributes in P:M, so it's safe to say they go even in this game as well, but I don't have enough experience in the MU to say for sure.
Any thoughts on Snake? I know in Brawl it's frequently debated who wins, and both characters have retained their basic attributes in P:M, so it's safe to say they go even in this game as well, but I don't have enough experience in the MU to say for sure.
Neither do I, really.
I think Snake grabbing us is worse than us grabbing him in this game. Unsure of how his up-b super armoring out of things is easy for us to handle/destroy or is actually a problem for us.
I think Snake grabbing us is worse than us grabbing him in this game. Unsure of how his up-b super armoring out of things is easy for us to handle/destroy or is actually a problem for us.
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
Well as far as I can tell, you can still hit him for free when he recovers with Up-B, especially with Fair. Off stage is where most, if not all, your KOs will come from. Apart from that though, nothing else seems obvious to me.
*waits for more experienced people to drop some knowledge*
*waits for more experienced people to drop some knowledge*
Yeah the Snake matchup actually plays out very similarly to how it does in Brawl where you can make snake eat 70%+ as he tries to recover from getting hit or thrown off stage. Waddles are useful for blocking projectiles, that's about all I have to say about it as I've only played one decent snake player.
leelue
Smash Lord
This must be theory because razor leaf ***** waddle dees. It doesn't even call them later to apologize.
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
Whoops. Guess "limited experience" was a bit of an understatement. Embarrass
DiSQO_BuNNY
Smash Lord
Inhale ivy pls.
KOkingpin
Smash Champion
Dedede Ftilt and CCing beats just about everything Ivysaur has. If people just remember to CC Ivysaur's stuff and punish accordingly its a very manageable match up. Im pretty sure FTilt beats Razor leaf. Also Dedede is superior in the air even though Ivy has a great air game.
As for snake and me being a snake and dedede main. I think Dedede should win the match. Snake has no real way to get in on Dedede. Dedede is better in the air and on the ground. Dedede's projectiles counter snakes. Dedede is also more mobile with waddle dashing. Once Dedede gets snake off the stage its good night snake where dedede is going to recover from just about anything. Snakes only saving grace is how easy it is to sticky Dedede. B reversal and the sticky hit box is huge.
As for snake and me being a snake and dedede main. I think Dedede should win the match. Snake has no real way to get in on Dedede. Dedede is better in the air and on the ground. Dedede's projectiles counter snakes. Dedede is also more mobile with waddle dashing. Once Dedede gets snake off the stage its good night snake where dedede is going to recover from just about anything. Snakes only saving grace is how easy it is to sticky Dedede. B reversal and the sticky hit box is huge.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
How does DDD deal with being camped by Snake?
I don't just mean projectile camped, but also platform camped. I'm not sure DDD has a lot of answers to that and snake can probably get a lot of mileage out of that. Both characters are extremely free to the others edgeguards, I would imagine. But I'm not sure how DDD chases down a Snake that wants to run away.
I don't just mean projectile camped, but also platform camped. I'm not sure DDD has a lot of answers to that and snake can probably get a lot of mileage out of that. Both characters are extremely free to the others edgeguards, I would imagine. But I'm not sure how DDD chases down a Snake that wants to run away.
Waddle dash into usmash,
works every time.
works every time.
KOkingpin
Smash Champion
@Juushichi - being platform camped by snake isn't that much of a problem if you ask me. If he is above you he is boned. On all the platform stages (besides dreamland) Dedede's attacks reach above the platforms. If he is below you there isn't much he can do because Dair goes through the platforms and beats his Uair. Waddle dashing gives Dedede a lot of movement options and you can put snake is shields stun for some grab tricks. Also Dedede FTilt wrecks Snake. As for snake gimping Dedede's recovery, Its not as free as you would think. With Aerial waddle glide toss he can recover high very easily. As for recovering low, Nikita does wreck Dedede's face.
Dedede simply just has to out space Snake and keep him just in range of Dedede shenanigans but out of Snake's range. You mainly just have to be careful for the low percentage grab game snake has. If he gets a grab off on Dedede you might as well say goodbye to your stock.
Dedede simply just has to out space Snake and keep him just in range of Dedede shenanigans but out of Snake's range. You mainly just have to be careful for the low percentage grab game snake has. If he gets a grab off on Dedede you might as well say goodbye to your stock.
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
Not really a match-up specific question, but are there any OoS options I should know about? Obviously his monstrous grab range make shield-grabbing a good option in some scenarios, but most of the time he seems to just get locked down in shield.
Keeping a waddle near you ala Diddy in brawl. Jump airdodge or even pressing A (i think) will throw a waddle while in shield too.
Shielding backwards (so either unshielding and turning around and reshielding or however you land) -> back air
Grab...
Nair for folks flaying around above your head. Up Smash isn't bad either.
That's about it.
His out of shield options literally ****ing suck balls (he really needs a better crouch cancel game and/or a faster ground move or two [dtilt or jab]).
Shielding backwards (so either unshielding and turning around and reshielding or however you land) -> back air
Grab...
Nair for folks flaying around above your head. Up Smash isn't bad either.
That's about it.
His out of shield options literally ****ing suck balls (he really needs a better crouch cancel game and/or a faster ground move or two [dtilt or jab]).
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
It certainly appears that way.
I've always found U-tilt a better option for swatting away people above you, personally. Regardless, I agree with everything you said, especially about the Waddles. Waddledash OoS too strong.
If you can get him near the ledge he should be pretty easy to gimp but obviously you'll have trouble getting him there if he's camping you. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of experience in that matchup all I know is that ftilt is good lol.
9Kplus1
Smash Master
Stay airborne. I don't have varied experience with the Link MU (there isn't much Link representation in MD/VA afaik), but the few Links I've played against falter to a more passive playstyle. Just try to maneuver around Link's projectiles (despite DDD's fat, it's pretty easy to do) and don't land near him if you don't have to; i.e, wait until the Link tosses out a punishable move or places himself in a vulnerable position and then pounce, there's little risk in doing so. If that doesn't suit you, or if the Link is playing with little shame, tossing out a minion occasionally can somewhat cripple Link's projectile game, but try to refrain from Goon Dashing since it's kinda telegraphed and Link has dozens of ways to stop and / or punish it. As far as punishing Link goes, you'll likely get the most mileage out of grabbing. Whether you prefer Uthrow for combos, Fthrow / Dthrow for techchases, or Bthrow for edgeguard setups, you should be able to quickly rack up percent on Link via throw follow-ups. Another thing worth noting is that DDD's strong offstage game is generally enough to make Link players a bit more liberal with Up-B (consequently, they won't be able to bomb jump due to Spin Attack staling after a couple of successful hits), so be wary of that at higher percents if you're behind Link's shield or are recovering (though, DDD should be able to get around UpB 'edgeguards' with appropriately timed jumps / airdodges).
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
I don't really have much to say in terms of fighting Link as my friend who plays him in Melee/Brawl dropped him in P:M, but I will say that small stages are a huge boon in this MU. If you can get Link backed up in a corner, it becomes a very advantageous situation for you, and a smaller stage makes the tedious process of approaching a projectile-happy Link that much quicker.
Also, something that comes to mind that could be kind of useful-ish is throwing Waddles at Link when he Up-B recovers. Stale his best edgeguard and who knows, you could get a Gordo. Just an idea. (Probably just better to Fair him offstage though.)
EDIT: You can hit him out of his Up-B if you peg him in the head with a Waddle.
Also, something that comes to mind that could be kind of useful-ish is throwing Waddles at Link when he Up-B recovers. Stale his best edgeguard and who knows, you could get a Gordo. Just an idea. (Probably just better to Fair him offstage though.)
EDIT: You can hit him out of his Up-B if you peg him in the head with a Waddle.
9Kplus1
Smash Master
Does anyone have any experience against a decent ROB? I understand some key portions of the MU, but there's only one consistent ROB in my 'area', so my knowledge is pretty limited =<
9Kplus1
Smash Master
*shameless bump*
Hi, could we please not let this thread die? Things to talk about... um... 'match-ups in which careful use of minions will prove to be extremely beneficial in the long run' seems like a good place to start.
Hi, could we please not let this thread die? Things to talk about... um... 'match-ups in which careful use of minions will prove to be extremely beneficial in the long run' seems like a good place to start.
Waiting for Sonic nerfs.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I learned a few things from LTC this weekend, most notably that I need to learn a lot about a bunch of other characters before being reasonably able to fight them so that I don't have to cop out to a Melee top tier (although I started to regain confidence in DDD around losers semis and used only him for the rest of the tourney from then on). Something that might actually be useful is that against Lucas, it's good to stay airborne a lot and make heavy use of platforms. A Lucas player beat me pretty convincingly in the first round of a tourney set (I just Melee'd him with Sheik the next two rounds) because I was trying to fight him on the ground and in my shield a lot, but when I was playing him later on, I started doing much better by just doing lots of full jumps, sticking to the air and platforms, descending with aerials here and there, but then quickly going airborne again.
Roche_CL
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2006
- Messages
- 410
Vs Link
I played like 10-20 matches the other day against a friend who uses him really well.
I'd say matchup is 40-60 in favor of link.
The SPAM... omg, boomerang, bomb, boomerang, Arrow, short hop -> hookshot, boomerang, bomb, arrow.
Can juggle DDD easily, Link's Fair isn't fair against DDD. Dair stops your upB and kills you.
DDD is so slow, it was a pain just to get near Link, and most of the times i would end up being comboed. Only way i could do something, was throws -> gimps and Fsmash reads with early % kills when i got lucky.
I also played against his marth, i'd say its 50-50, marth is faster, DDD is heavier, stronger and has more range, has a projectile, bad thing he is combo food.
I played like 10-20 matches the other day against a friend who uses him really well.
I'd say matchup is 40-60 in favor of link.
The SPAM... omg, boomerang, bomb, boomerang, Arrow, short hop -> hookshot, boomerang, bomb, arrow.
Can juggle DDD easily, Link's Fair isn't fair against DDD. Dair stops your upB and kills you.
DDD is so slow, it was a pain just to get near Link, and most of the times i would end up being comboed. Only way i could do something, was throws -> gimps and Fsmash reads with early % kills when i got lucky.
I also played against his marth, i'd say its 50-50, marth is faster, DDD is heavier, stronger and has more range, has a projectile, bad thing he is combo food.
heysuess
Smash Cadet
Hey guys. Here are some recent videos of me playing D3
This was against K9's Ness at a tourney a few weeks ago. This was WF's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4KpRHZZdxs&feature=player_detailpage#t=870
This was LF's at another recent tourney against Calabrel's Ness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYfrixQc79U
Here is some friendlies with Calabrel I did at the end of August
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKmjQiYEXsM
I feel like I played a bit sloppy at points but then I calmed down and played good. The MU against Ness can be tough if you are in range and get hit by his PK Fire. You can dance around PK Fire and forward air Ness pretty easily. I feel that it's tough for Ness to recover against D3. You can FSmash, Down-B, or dash attack Ness when trying to recover.
This was against K9's Ness at a tourney a few weeks ago. This was WF's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4KpRHZZdxs&feature=player_detailpage#t=870
This was LF's at another recent tourney against Calabrel's Ness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYfrixQc79U
Here is some friendlies with Calabrel I did at the end of August
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKmjQiYEXsM
I feel like I played a bit sloppy at points but then I calmed down and played good. The MU against Ness can be tough if you are in range and get hit by his PK Fire. You can dance around PK Fire and forward air Ness pretty easily. I feel that it's tough for Ness to recover against D3. You can FSmash, Down-B, or dash attack Ness when trying to recover.
Omg that waddle gimp at http://youtu.be/XYfrixQc79U?t=12m30s
Let's talk about Dedede vs characters that are hard to gimp: Meta Knight, Pit, ZSS, and Zelda come to my mind. Meta Knight and Pit have multiple jumps and decent recovery mixups, ZSS can go super low and has that tether, and Zelda's Up-B (if you don't hit the startup) can't be "gimped" and she is so floaty that you can't really combo into a gimp very well.
On these characters I feel like I only ever get straight up top and side blastzone kills, never bottom. Perhaps that's just a fundamental part of their character designs: they don't get gimped easily. But since that's a big part of Dedede's game, I feel like it's worth exploring.
Of the characters I listed, I have more playtime against Pit, who has a pretty good harassment projectile and a glide he can use whenever he wants (and jump out of). Thankfully he seems pretty light and does die to strong hits at a relatively low percentage. I'm thinking Waddle Dash into Up-Smash has a lot of potential, but most kills seem to be from a high-ish percentage F-air. In general I'd probably just switch to Marth or something to fight Pit, but I do wonder if Dedede has a better matchup against him than I'm thinking he does.
Also fighting against Meta Knight with any character is tough, but a big fat easy-to-combo character? Ow...
On these characters I feel like I only ever get straight up top and side blastzone kills, never bottom. Perhaps that's just a fundamental part of their character designs: they don't get gimped easily. But since that's a big part of Dedede's game, I feel like it's worth exploring.
Of the characters I listed, I have more playtime against Pit, who has a pretty good harassment projectile and a glide he can use whenever he wants (and jump out of). Thankfully he seems pretty light and does die to strong hits at a relatively low percentage. I'm thinking Waddle Dash into Up-Smash has a lot of potential, but most kills seem to be from a high-ish percentage F-air. In general I'd probably just switch to Marth or something to fight Pit, but I do wonder if Dedede has a better matchup against him than I'm thinking he does.
Also fighting against Meta Knight with any character is tough, but a big fat easy-to-combo character? Ow...