Try gimping ivysaur...
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Sovereign Penguin -- DDD MU Discussion
- Thread starter 9Kplus1
- Start date
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Gimping Ivy is manageable. Just hit her when she's using dair.
I don't have much experience against most of the characters listed, but I don't find MK too difficult. He lacks great responses to CCing, so just stay on the ground and poke him a lot. Don't worry about gimping him too much since he's light and doesn't take too long to die anyways, although you can occasionally get bair chains on him when he's offstage and stuff like that.
I don't have much experience against most of the characters listed, but I don't find MK too difficult. He lacks great responses to CCing, so just stay on the ground and poke him a lot. Don't worry about gimping him too much since he's light and doesn't take too long to die anyways, although you can occasionally get bair chains on him when he's offstage and stuff like that.
KarmaJolt
Smash Cadet
Some insight on the Ivysaur matchup:
Dedede has a tough time dealing with Ivy's razorleaf, since the waddle deez don't nullify it consistently. Furthermore, and experienced Ivysaur player will throw r-leaves out while recovering, which can be very tough for DDD to deal with. Ivysaur does stuff like DAIR, Leaf, DAIR, Leaf, repeat until in position to catch ledge with UP-B. On stage, razor leaf can pretty much force D3 to go airborne, which is what Ivysaur wants, IMO.
Dedede's approach from above can be shut down by Ivysaur's... seed... thing (down-b?), and vine whip (up-b) can be a problem as well.
Furthermore, stray minions can be sweetspotted with Ivysaurs DAIR, which helps charge solar beam.
I'm pretty sure Dedede wants to bring Ivy to a short stage, or one that has no platforms to camp underneath. I could be wrong about this.
Furthermore, all of my experience is based on Ivysaurs that I played before 3.0.
Dedede has a tough time dealing with Ivy's razorleaf, since the waddle deez don't nullify it consistently. Furthermore, and experienced Ivysaur player will throw r-leaves out while recovering, which can be very tough for DDD to deal with. Ivysaur does stuff like DAIR, Leaf, DAIR, Leaf, repeat until in position to catch ledge with UP-B. On stage, razor leaf can pretty much force D3 to go airborne, which is what Ivysaur wants, IMO.
Dedede's approach from above can be shut down by Ivysaur's... seed... thing (down-b?), and vine whip (up-b) can be a problem as well.
Furthermore, stray minions can be sweetspotted with Ivysaurs DAIR, which helps charge solar beam.
I'm pretty sure Dedede wants to bring Ivy to a short stage, or one that has no platforms to camp underneath. I could be wrong about this.
Furthermore, all of my experience is based on Ivysaurs that I played before 3.0.
KarmaJolt
Smash Cadet
To elaborate, I should say that a razorleaf will go straight through a standing waddle dee, and even when thrown directly at an incoming razor-L, they leaf will only be destroyed some of the time (unless there is a trick to it).
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
So, a couple match-ups I'd like to hear people's opinions on:
ICs: Arguably the King's worst MU in Brawl, due to the extreme risk of getting close enough to grab one of the hooded terrors more often than not resulting in a stock. For my money, it's not quite as bad this time around, due to Dedede being able to approach more safely in PM, and not being as grab-reliant. That being said, without solid out-of-shield options, enough pressure from the Climbers will most likely net them a grab. I don't think it's quite the uphill battle it was in Brawl, but it doesn't exactly seem like a cake walk either.
Sheik: I feel like if we space grabs we win this easy, but the rest of the match-up I'm not so sure about. Honestly I've only played a couple games vs. a Sheik since picking up the penguin again, so I'd love feedback from someone who does know this MU. EDIT: I forgot how quickly I could act out of DThrow. Still, you have to hard read a tech away to follow up ;_;
ICs: Arguably the King's worst MU in Brawl, due to the extreme risk of getting close enough to grab one of the hooded terrors more often than not resulting in a stock. For my money, it's not quite as bad this time around, due to Dedede being able to approach more safely in PM, and not being as grab-reliant. That being said, without solid out-of-shield options, enough pressure from the Climbers will most likely net them a grab. I don't think it's quite the uphill battle it was in Brawl, but it doesn't exactly seem like a cake walk either.
Sheik: I feel like if we space grabs we win this easy, but the rest of the match-up I'm not so sure about. Honestly I've only played a couple games vs. a Sheik since picking up the penguin again, so I'd love feedback from someone who does know this MU. EDIT: I forgot how quickly I could act out of DThrow. Still, you have to hard read a tech away to follow up ;_;
I don't have any experience with Ice Climbers yet, but I feel like it will be a mixed bag. On one hand, grabbing the Ice Climbers can be tough and we're susceptible to combos. On the other, I think killing Nana should be relatively easy with our crazy gimp game and her predictable recovery. Best bet for separating them is probably a throw or a lucky aerial.
Sheik is a tough matchup for anyone. We get comboed super easy and her recovery has invincibility which hinders our gimps. Also needles. Platforms are good for us: they help us avoid needles and escape combos. In the neutral game Sheik wants to stay on the ground -- when she takes to the air we have the advantage (usually). Other than that it's pretty standard DDD stuff: grab, shield-grab, F-tilt, abuse F-air... If you want to edgeguard Sheik you have to go deep. You have to catch her second jump because her Up-B is pretty safe. Or just grab the ledge because the landing lag on her Up-B is long enough to punish most of the time. Quickly get up on the stage and grab to back throw or land a quick F-air.
Sheik is a tough matchup for anyone. We get comboed super easy and her recovery has invincibility which hinders our gimps. Also needles. Platforms are good for us: they help us avoid needles and escape combos. In the neutral game Sheik wants to stay on the ground -- when she takes to the air we have the advantage (usually). Other than that it's pretty standard DDD stuff: grab, shield-grab, F-tilt, abuse F-air... If you want to edgeguard Sheik you have to go deep. You have to catch her second jump because her Up-B is pretty safe. Or just grab the ledge because the landing lag on her Up-B is long enough to punish most of the time. Quickly get up on the stage and grab to back throw or land a quick F-air.
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
How do y'all approach the Link matchup? My friend is pretty good at Link, and I have problems getting through his vast arsenal of projectiles.
Morphine
Smash Cadet
Fly I'm genuinely interested in what you held back from saying. King is by far my favorite a dim sure you'd have some info pertinent to the Marth MU or any MU for that matter
any tips for the mario match up?
feels like mario has incredible combo and ko potential vs dedede, and with mario's amazing recovery i've been having problems edgeguarding him without putting myself in a bad position. Also because you cant sweetspot up-b, how do you deal with cape if you are recovering from below?
feels like mario has incredible combo and ko potential vs dedede, and with mario's amazing recovery i've been having problems edgeguarding him without putting myself in a bad position. Also because you cant sweetspot up-b, how do you deal with cape if you are recovering from below?
When you cancel Upb in the air, can't you also turn around when doing it? You could probably do that to save yourself if he capes: I feel like a friend of mine has done this a few times whenever I random Mario and cape him. If not, then hopefully don't angle yourself towards the stage and just go straight up. Use waddles to get you horizontally as much as you need, then go up. Kind of ****ty but dunno what else would work
Psychostoner
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2014
- Messages
- 59
how to beat zero suit samus?
She pressures our shield at a really safe distance, it's a hard MU. But off stage is pretty swell.
Focus on stage positioning and capitalizing on getting her off stage.
Saw Fly play two sets yesterday (my time), I saw a lot of Down-B that I'm still not entirely sure of the purpose (asides from the ledge guarding). D3 looks so strong in the MUs he doesn't get obliterated in lol.
Focus on stage positioning and capitalizing on getting her off stage.
Saw Fly play two sets yesterday (my time), I saw a lot of Down-B that I'm still not entirely sure of the purpose (asides from the ledge guarding). D3 looks so strong in the MUs he doesn't get obliterated in lol.
Vi¢e
Smash Rookie
How to deal with Mario's fireballs/pills? Mario is usually close enough to grab me as soon as I shield his projectiles. I find it extremely hard to approach him.
Vi¢e
Smash Rookie
So I should just try to space myself with full hop fairs?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I did do a lot of questionable down-Bs against Vist. IIRC, my hope was that I could hit him before he'd exit landfallspecial, but he was able to shield first or use a fireball to stuff that. Just some unsuccessful experimentation on my part.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
It is done.
I haven't had a chance to say this yet, but seriously man huge props for doing amazing at Apex. You really rocked it as DDD man.
Looking back at it, what do you think about the whole thing? What were some of your personal highlights and what do you think you could improve upon with the character?
KarmaJolt
Smash Cadet
I played a pretty good ZSS the other day.
Spacing is tough here, but I had a LOT of success with inhale whenever I felt that I made a mistake with spacing. I was basically using it to cover my mistakes whenever I was about to land in a bad spot.
I probably hit on about 12 out of 15 inhales. Maybe this is a strategy????????!???
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Thanks.
I'm not really sure what you mean by "the whole thing", but the PM bracket was entertaining to watch and be a part of, although I was kind of disappointed in my own play. I don't have too much to say in terms of highlights, although I didn't lose to Roy, which is nice. I feel like most of the improvements I can make just pertain to match-up details. I need to interact with Fox a little differently when he's cornered and start covering his recovery a little differently (outside of a few easy situations that I don't have any need to alter). I could definitely learn how to edgeguard Roy a lot better, which I think I'll be fine at once I take some time to understand his up-B's hitboxes better. I need to learn who the hell this Snake guy is and what he does. I've gotten a few vague ideas about how to play the match-up better by taking some time to talk to the UK guys after Apex, but I wouldn't want to assert anything about the match-up without further testing.
Not DDD-specific, but I could afford to be more detached while playing. For example, I had generally beaten Larry in the past, but he gradually improved at the MU, beat me in GFs at a tourney a couple weeks before Apex, and even though I tried not to be, I still found myself a little nervous coming into my set with him in WSFs and consequently not implementing some changes I planned on making (as noted earlier, mostly pertaining to the edge- and near edge- game) and resorting instead to what I was comfortable with, although that sort of style is what lead to Larry beating me beforehand, and again at Apex.
Thoughts on the Metaknight match up?
Crouch cancelling seems to beat a lot of MK's moves, and you can 'wall' him out pretty well with waddledees and ftilts, however it seems like MK's edgeguards, combo game, and grab game (my god MK's dthrow) can be pretty difficult to deal with. Especially that dthrow of his, where at low percents if you DI away you'll get regrabbed, and if you DI in you'll get aerial'd
Crouch cancelling seems to beat a lot of MK's moves, and you can 'wall' him out pretty well with waddledees and ftilts, however it seems like MK's edgeguards, combo game, and grab game (my god MK's dthrow) can be pretty difficult to deal with. Especially that dthrow of his, where at low percents if you DI away you'll get regrabbed, and if you DI in you'll get aerial'd
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I generally like fighting against MKs. Since he has no projectile, there is very little hurry to engage him, which is nice. I mostly just try to shove him offstage or put him above me, since DDD juggles MK pretty well and also has no difficulty dealing with dair shenanigans (nair beats it cleanly, and late hit nair leads to pretty harsh punishments). Waddles and ftilts are fine, but I wouldn't throw them out too much since both moves are very punishable.
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MoonlapseOpethian
Smash Journeyman
How does everyone feel about the Sonic matchup?
Haven't seen a sonic since he got nerfed. I'd put any chance Dedede has against a playing-to-win Sonic comes down to stage choice.
Apollo Ali
Smash Journeyman
Thinking about picking up Dedede as a secondary to counterpick versus Melee top tiers (Falco, Fox, Marth and Falcon, p much) on big stages when my Link loses the first match. Whatcha'll think about that?
I lived til 250 today on Dracs in tournament as Dedede versus a Marth :O. I ended up winning that particular round too.
I lived til 250 today on Dracs in tournament as Dedede versus a Marth :O. I ended up winning that particular round too.
Machiavelli.CF
Ivy of the West
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I would definitely not consider him a counterpick against the Melee top tiers; In general he's got a fairly even match-up spread.
-He probably beats Sheik, Peach, and Falcon (likely puff, but too uncommon to claim)
-Seems close to even with Marth.
-For all intents and purposes, Fox and (to a lesser extent) Falco should be able to beat Dedede. However I feel that spacie match-ups often come largely down to player experience. If you're learned in the MU, and your opponent isn't, you should be able to confidently take them on.
Also, Dedede's best stages are not always the big ones. For example, you wouldn't take a Falcon to DL64.
You'll get camped pretty hard on larger stages as dedede against characters with good projectiles.
Otherwise, in comparison to link i think dedede has a better time against the melee top tiers. Dedede definitely beats or goes even with marth, sheik, peach, and jiggs, and although a bit tougher over all, has some tricks vs the spacies/falcon with grabs->combos, and relatively free edgeguards that makes those match ups manageable.
Otherwise, in comparison to link i think dedede has a better time against the melee top tiers. Dedede definitely beats or goes even with marth, sheik, peach, and jiggs, and although a bit tougher over all, has some tricks vs the spacies/falcon with grabs->combos, and relatively free edgeguards that makes those match ups manageable.
Apollo Ali
Smash Journeyman
Yeah it's not that I'm convinced that Dedede is overall a super great pick versus those characters; it's just the strats and punish game are so much easier with him vs those characters than it is with Link. Edgeguards can be pretty free at times.
JesseMcCloud
AKA Zessei, Herald of Fate
The thing that...well, "scares" isn't the right term as I don't feel fear, but... seems the most difficult for DDD is Lucas. That little monster seems like he could rush in and completely own DDD with nairs and throws. Thoughts?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I just platform camp Lucas a lot since he's a pain to fight near the ground. It actually works pretty well since he's not amazing at approaching platforms.
KarmaJolt
Smash Cadet
Lucas is one of the few characters against whom I will actually use UpThrow rather than just throw offstage and jump out to meet with hammer.
BUT MAYBE I'M STUPID SO I DUNNO LOL
Edit: I stopped doing this because it hasn't been working.
BUT MAYBE I'M STUPID SO I DUNNO LOL
Edit: I stopped doing this because it hasn't been working.
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lucas vs dedede is a grim match up imo
If you can keep your composure after getting knocked around and combo'd, you can gimp lucas from low percents onwards to help even out the stocks. Being grounded against lucas is the worst since your shield grabs is a big portion of your game, lucas will just grab you with his meaty tether grab.
If you can keep your composure after getting knocked around and combo'd, you can gimp lucas from low percents onwards to help even out the stocks. Being grounded against lucas is the worst since your shield grabs is a big portion of your game, lucas will just grab you with his meaty tether grab.