Sovereign Penguin -- DDD MU Discussion

[KarmaJolt]

Gimping Lucas is a lot harder than it sounds. That rope snake can reach pretty far, and it usually begins with an ait dodge. Furthermore, his vertical movement is difficult to track, since his jump (and his fall speed) is very fast.

 

[Scoob]

Lucas has the means to pressure D3 and combo him hard off of a PK Freeze. It's best to have a Waddle or 2 onstage to possibly sponge some hits/freezes and create setup opportunities. Grabs can lead offstage, and if you can get Lucas far enough out that he has to use PK Thunder, edgeguards are easy. His fullhop is massive, but his second jump is below average. Just don't get too greedy or you'll take a big hit. Expect tethers whenever they are possible, since they are safer, and learn how to punish them (Dair or Down B? I still have no idea lol).

Since he falls fast, it's easy to follow up grabs with tilts or aerials, like Up throw to nair/uair or utilt. Lucas reminds me of Falco, but with a weaker projectile and stronger recovery. He can combo you hard, but if given the opportunity, you can combo him hard too.

 

[cannedbread]

Thoughts on ganon?

This matchup is pretty funny in my experience. My general gameplan:
Camp the corners of the stage
Waddle toss at him until he overcommits to something and then toss him off the stage and do dedede stuff.
Rinse and repeat

I feel like ganon's air game is too strong to challenge and you can't really safely approach him except with perfectly spaced bairs which don't really reward you too much. On the flipside ganon has basically no safe approaches either and basically wants you to overcommit as well, but doesn't have a way to do so because he's ganon and he sucks. So basically it's all footsies.

Some other things to note:
Ganons dthrow slays dedede. di away and you get usmashed or faired, di behind and you get baired usually.
Inhale beats ganon's dacus. Ftilt is usually too slow to stuff it, so this is pretty cool.
If he doesn't respond to waddle toss, waddle dash>grab or jab grab>dedede stuff is a good mixup if ganon isn't ready to punish it.

 

[Scoob]

Been having trouble with Ike recently. My bro started playing him pretty seriously, so we just sat a played the Ike/D3 matchup for like an hour. It's a tough one, since Ike can outspace you with a lot of his attacks, and you have to respect that range. This makes it especially hard to get in and make something happen. I think Ike's biggest weaknesses are the low speed and high endlag on most of his moves. You have to use those opportunities to do some damage, but most of his attacks are pretty safe on shield. The Quickdraw attack isn't, though. So you can shieldgrab there. But if he's a good Ike, he probably won't use that move.

Quickdraw is an important part of this matchup, since it's Ike's bread and butter, so to speak. He can do a fast attack to interrupt the move, but it isn't very safe. However, don't just stand there in shield while he charges quick draw. He can also jump cancel grab, jump cancel u-smash, and jump cancel to any aerial. He will likely mix it up to keep you guessing. Usually when he charges QD, I either try to snuff it out with F-tilt, or get a Waddle on the ground so I can match his unpredictable mobility. I like to catch him with Waddle dash to grab or down/up smash, or just keep moving around with the waddle to get him to shield. Then, it's grabbing time.

If you manage to get ahold of Ike, it's best to try and get him offstage, where you have the advantage. His recovery is pretty safe, since it launches a big, spinning hitbox up before he even moves up. Get used to where its hurtbox is. Fairs are less effective here, unless you're predicting his QD recovery. It's usually best to go for bairs and try to stage spike. This works well on Battlefield and PS2 as far as I know. SHFFL bairs are the best approach option most of the time because they are faster than most of Ike's ground moves.

I'm still working on this. I may post more tomorrow. Let me know what you guys think about the D3/Ike matchup.

 

[Baloney Samwich]

Ok maybe a few pointers for D3/Lucas:

- One of Lucas' most potent moves against D3 is probably his nair, since D3 is an easy target. Spacing is obviously key.

- As one of my friends noticed, I made the mistake of not committing to Lucas offstage and waddling him to get a setup. This was (for me at least) mostly ineffective. Maybe try committing and actually reaching for him offstage, to pressure him into using PK lightning? Unless sweetspotted, it can definitely be punished

- Stage control should be a given and essential for this MU, but it shouldn't be too difficult to maintain considering the MU.

- You can shield-grab through his dair sequence before it ends or he follows it up with Usmash or nair or whatever

Just a few things I noticed from my tourney match in MTL against a Lucas who made it to WF IIRC

 

[Dr.Faustus]

How in gods name do I beat a good zard? He feels like a faster safer version of me.

 

[ECTO]

Zard was tricky at a first glance, he's as big as you but he's so much faster than he looks. Overall, you want him in the air, throw waddles and front tilts in hopes that he jumps for you, then you can contest him in the air. Use disjointed stuff like Up-Air and of course front air.

Approaching him yourself seems hard for Dedede overall.

 

[Scoob]

Definitely make Zard approach you. He has no projectiles, but you have Waddles and disjoints. Aside from nair oos he has few defensive options. Out space him and try to take his glide away.

 

[DD_]

Hey guys, trying to find information on the Pit match up. Anyone got any insight into this or know a post I can refer too? I got blown up today by a pit I had no idea what my options were/if I even had any. I thought Mario and sonic were hard but daym, pit got me mad salty haha.

 

[Shaya]

Put down the controller and wait until he gets nerfed.

It's hard to gimp him, but we can... I think all you really have is wavedashing oos into grab for most of his moves on your shield, don't get grabbed... (lol). Power shield/reflect arrows, throw out waddles while you aren't in dash attack range.

 

[Scoob]

Yeah honestly, that mu is just awful. Imagine if falco could bend his lasers... and recover from the blast zone.

 

[Shaya]

Imagine if Falco could bend his lasers and recover from the blast zone while having the disjoints of Marth and the moveset properties of Sheik.

 

[OldManDyl (OMD)]

Alright, played my first decent Sonic and it wasn't fun at all. Anyone have a breakdown on how to play the matchup?

 

[Shaya]

Let's be real here.

We don't beat Sonic nor have any chance against him.
Sonic is ********.

Every instance he hits our shield he gets out of anything for free. His range/speed in getting to us to hit our shield is stupid, our moveset is too slow to reactively knock him out of his approaches and his **** is literally completely safe on every shield in the game for some ****ing reason. We don't have the hitboxes/frame data to wall him out and if we do trade favourably on a single hit we're doing so with a move that doesn't combo well, or we're doing it in such a poor position we can't follow up with it, oh and then sonic just Up-B's as a get out of jail free card (I play game and watch, he can't air dodge out of his up b, while sonic can, ****ING LOL).

Like seriously, we throw waddles at him from half of BF away and he just spins through it (he outprioritises ****ing everything with his dash, another thing that doesn't make sense) and punishes it with something for 20-40%. He hits our shield in front of us and doesn't even have to worry about ****ing up an l cancel, he just needs to continue flowchart B button presses, we won't grab him. Anytime he hits our shield we have to stop and respect him, we can't wavedash out of shield, we'll be hit, buffered rolls out of shield can be punished really really easily on reaction by Sonic because of his speed, no character has OoS options against Sonic and as a lot of Dedede's viability comes from the potency of his punishment game, we just flat out have no chance.

We basically cannot gimp him either. His homing attack works "map wide" (unlike in Brawl which if you're a certain distance away will not let him lock onto anything, killing him [i may be getting confused on that one]). Combined with the weight, aerial mobility, the invincibility on his up-b and ginormous "hands" for grabbing the ledge in PM. Edge guarding him is not feasible when he can use ledge invincibility to get off with his spin.

 

[DD_]

Stuff.

He makes me cry everytime. I Just CC dsmash and hope for the best :D

 

[Star ☆]

Let's be real here.

We don't beat Sonic nor have any chance against him.
Sonic is ********.

Every instance he hits our shield he gets out of anything for free. His range/speed in getting to us to hit our shield is stupid, our moveset is too slow to reactively knock him out of his approaches and his **** is literally completely safe on every shield in the game for some ****ing reason. We don't have the hitboxes/frame data to wall him out and if we do trade favourably on a single hit we're doing so with a move that doesn't combo well, or we're doing it in such a poor position we can't follow up with it, oh and then sonic just Up-B's as a get out of jail free card (I play game and watch, he can't air dodge out of his up b, while sonic can, ****ING LOL).

Like seriously, we throw waddles at him from half of BF away and he just spins through it (he outprioritises ****ing everything with his dash, another thing that doesn't make sense) and punishes it with something for 20-40%. He hits our shield in front of us and doesn't even have to worry about ****ing up an l cancel, he just needs to continue flowchart B button presses, we won't grab him. Anytime he hits our shield we have to stop and respect him, we can't wavedash out of shield, we'll be hit, buffered rolls out of shield can be punished really really easily on reaction by Sonic because of his speed, no character has OoS options against Sonic and as a lot of Dedede's viability comes from the potency of his punishment game, we just flat out have no chance.

We basically cannot gimp him either. His homing attack works "map wide" (unlike in Brawl which if you're a certain distance away will not let him lock onto anything, killing him [i may be getting confused on that one]). Combined with the weight, aerial mobility, the invincibility on his up-b and ginormous "hands" for grabbing the ledge in PM. Edge guarding him is not feasible when he can use ledge invincibility to get off with his spin.

Sonic cannot airdodge out of Up B unless you utilise a frame perfect glitch which is usually impractical.
Also, Sonic's homing attack lock on range is only 2/3rds of what it is in Brawl. If you're not in the range you move forward slightly afterwards and miss just like in Brawl.

Also, when fighting King D3's I've found that they tend to get a lot of reward out of Pivot Grabs and Jet Hammer against Sonic. Not sure if this is practical as I don't play D3 but they seemed to work well. Also, Sonic's spindash has the lowest priority conceivable (his dash attack has more but it has quite a bit of cooldown). If Sonic Side B's you on shield he's left open, grab OOS and you'll be sweet.

I advise you fight Sonic a little more before you consolidate this opinion.

 

[Shaya]

Oh, that's based off of older experiences, I think the last set we played before recently I used D3 and won? I should've switched to it second game but I really disliked the scenario of being behind against Sonic as D3 (you have no reason to approach as it is), but the problem was even more exacerbated as MK once you were in the lead. I felt being able to actually have a fast OoS aerial option (in nair) and transcended priority would be able to at least trade favourably, but it was pretty obvious the only move you can hit sonic with is nair and it's a combo finisher, not a starter and you only get the punish if you decide to feint close to shield rather than continuing with B-buttons. It still takes way too much commitment to approach Sonic and he still has way too many options in every situation.

I'm working on MK on a bit, but I think I'd still stick to D3 in this MU for now because never dying + moves like fair/ftilt are pretty exceptional if I'm reading your movements. Was the first time I had played MK in the match.

Yeah air dodging out of up-b seemed like something that would be buggy if it existed (seeing the G&W standard), but apparently it's fully functional/proper when I asked (someone in the PMBR) , and I was really shocked when I'd know you'd be going for up b, you would go above the ledge and start falling with what looked like an air dodge (backflipish animation?) and fsmash would go right through and you'd grab the ledge.

 

[Star ☆]

Oh, that's based off of older experiences, I think the last set we played before recently I used D3 and won? I should've switched to it second game but I really disliked the scenario of being behind against Sonic as D3 (you have no reason to approach as it is), but the problem was even more exacerbated as MK once you were in the lead. I felt being able to actually have a fast OoS aerial option (in nair) and transcended priority would be able to at least trade favourably, but it was pretty obvious the only move you can hit sonic with is nair and it's a combo finisher, not a starter and you only get the punish if you decide to feint close to shield rather than continuing with B-buttons.It still takes way too much commitment to approach Sonic.

I'm working on MK on a bit, but I think I'd still stick to D3 in this MU for now because never dying + moves like fair/ftilt are pretty exceptional if I'm reading your movements. Was the first time I had played MK in the match.

Nah, this set was the only one I've ever played against you, I saw you fighting another Sonic player however. King DeDeDe is Sonic's absolute best matchup, I know that from experience and your switch to Metaknight was a great option for you. I still think it's possible for D3 to do some things to counter Sonic though. Try Jet Hammer or Pivot grabs but yeah, like you said, it's preferable for you to stick with MK for this matchup.

 

[Shaya]

Meh, I think MK isn't a wise choice as all of his strengths Sonic has, but better. At least Dedede has his own strengths to play on/with (weight/range). And I'd rather try to outplay you with tools that are unique/scenarios that im in the advantage, rather than playing 40/60s of the same option where you'll come out on top in every instance unless you mess up.

And then there's way too many blonde kids playing Sonic, but I think it was at a RoS in bracket. Maybe it was only a friendly then, but I'm pretty sure I played you with Dedede at some point.

 

[Scoob]

My friend plays Sonic. I don't play Dedede against him if I can help it. Bad times. Sonic is just a very well rounded character. He's like Mario in that regard.

Sonic beats out D3 where it matters; offstage. That blue ******* can recover from beyond the blast zone if he saves his jump. That won't be the case for much longer. We'll see where the match up goes from there.

 

[OldManDyl (OMD)]

So if I had to pick off of Dedede against a Sonic player, what's the best options?

 

[Scoob]

You have to predict him, since his moves are faster than yours. Bair is a great tool. Sometimes you can CC Down smash. If you get a grab, I recommend down throwing and going for a followup. The only way to get rid of him is to smack him hard enough to knock him out, unless you get really aggressive offstage. He's pretty light, so back throw kills at fairly low percents. I dunno, that's all I've got. He can lay on the shield pressure, try not to stay in shield too long.

 

[Shaya]

Modus operandi for Sonic vs Dedede.
You run away. As Dedede. Sonic is actually in range without being in a poor position? That's not what you want.

That may sound disingenuous but it's basically the truth.
Our strengths in the match up are longer range and significant weight and our ginormous fast fall speed. The range of fair and ftilt and using them effectively in whopping them is all I find him having. Unlike what I said before though, you bait the Up-Bs and are a lot more apt at covering all of his landing options (our up air's huge size/speed/etc flops the spring).

Next two important moves are inhale and waddle.
Everything sonic has in the air beats grounded inhale and his grounded tilts/smashes will hit Dedede first (this only happens on characters with disjoints normally, but gotta love #SonicBalance) however his ground to air inhale and air to ground inhale beat's things if you're coming up from slightly above. The position Sonic is in after inhale is actually pretty good for us.

Waddles are good but they get ignored by Sonic's specials/movement options. This means that usual cross stage waddles are dangerous because he just reacts by releasing his charge and goes right through the waddle into hitting you, throwing waddles to try to stop him once he's moving doesn't really work too well. Fortunately for me the 1/8 chance of a Gordo may actually happen early in the match, usually scaring the ever living daylights out of Sonic players and making them adjust heavily, capitalise. However, waddles are important. You should throw waddles near edges + while in the air, you'll try to DI down/away to slide off the platform/ledge if you get hit coming into the landing to avoid infreenite damages. Angled upwards/close is good. Waddles are important because our only OoS option that gives us solid punishment/etc opportunities are waddle dashing OoS (usually backwards while aiming the waddle upwards).


Issue here: If you fall behind you're ****ed. A sonic with no reason to want to hit you is the most infuriating in the game, Mewtwo/Zelda are also obnoxious but I think Sonic really takes the cake in that regard. If they do that while playing reactively still (so not just blind running away) its hard, no-commitment Dedede isn't that great against a no-commitment anyone, let alone sonic. If they give you the space to get waddles out well, that's great, but you are most definitely forced to play it very slow/meticulous if you're behind as you'll only be achieving the 10-15% punishes one at a time, while if you over commit you'll be dealt the 40%. As you can surmise the risk/reward is ****ed, but that's your only choice (2-3 hits at a disadvantage vs a single hit with significantly more options attached) and fortunately its evened out a little with your weight.

I don't know about CC downsmash, not really my thing. My CC options are Up/Down Tilts and wavedash back [this is kinda an option selectie type of input because I'm also trying to smash di away) into shield (which gets the grab most of the time).

Yoshi's Island, fountain of dreams, wario ware, basically battlefield-ish stages that are smaller than battlefield.

 

[steelguttey]

hey guys. over at the olimar matchup thread were doing d3 this week. it would be greati f you guys would help us with this matchup.

 

[DD_]

Just watched Ripple Vs Wizz and thought of this thread. I cried :'(

 

[steelguttey]

Spoiler: King Dedede

Good Stages: preference (dont give d3 dreamland 64 pls)

Percent at which flowered purple usmash can kill at: 89%

Matchup Ratio: 5.5-4.5

Tips:

Finally a character I main! Dedede can gimp and kill Olimar earlier than 5 am, and even though he's a big target, he can remove latched pikmin with nair. He's big and fat so comboing to over 100% probably will be a thing and I think he can swat away thrown pikmin with his waddles and f tilt but don't quote me that lol. I guess his hammer is kinda like a big sword and you keep mentioning he has trouble against characters with big swords so connect the dots. A smart D3 will space aerials and waddles and tilts so he can't be combo'd or pressured. I'm calling (slight) disadvantage for Olibabies. Seriously, bair, fair, up tilt, and down smash kill Olibabies so early. D3 has a crazy recovery and weight so killing will be hard. I know Ripple and Hungrybox played this same MU so you can watch that video for the first game before Hbox counterpicks with Puff, a badish D3 MU.

I can only theory craft but I wouldn't think that its in olimars favor. My best guess would be close to even or a slight advantage us. Olimar's keep away game seems efficient against DDD but not overwhelming.

I personally find this match up to be in Olimar's favour. Waddles may trade with Pikmin but Pikmin can be thrown much faster than Waddles and put DDD under a lot more pressure. Then is the fact that like the other big bodies like Bowser and DK, DDD can be comboed and chain grabbed to oblivion. Unlike those two however DDD doesn't have the defensive options to relieve your pressure. Your main concern of course is being offstage. DDD has one of the strongest off stage games in the game and can very easily edgeguard you. Centre stage is your best friend.

I'M SO CONFLICTED

I still think it's in D3's favor. Despite Silentdoom's comment, it's really hard to apply pressure to D3. I mean, his nair just swats Pikmin off, he can shield pressure, and his offstage game is great.

I'm just going to assume that the only advantage Oli has, as he has with most matchups, is juggles.

...which in hindsight are actually hard to pull off against D3's dair.

****.

I never said he struggled. I said he manages. DDD's aerial to ground game is one of the best in the game. he doesn't have to be right above you, he can be above your upsmash height and put on pressure. olimar isn't fast enough to run all the way under DDD everytime and get away with that either. I will get a grab or hit more often than you do. I'm not denying olimar can combo me for a lot of damage, but I will win more interactions between us.

olimar vs d3 woohoo

 

[KinGly]

Sup guys. I'm a mario main struggling with the marth and falcon matchups and was looking to pick up d3 to cover those weak spots. I feel like d3 would do really well against both of them. Any thought/tips?

 

[DD_]

Sup guys. I'm a mario main struggling with the marth and falcon matchups and was looking to pick up d3 to cover those weak spots. I feel like d3 would do really well against both of them. Any thought/tips?

you're picking the wrong character

 

[Ripple]

you're picking the wrong character

DDD destroys both of those characters.

 

[KinGly]

DDD destroys both of those characters.

From what I've been able to tell its merely a matter of getting them offstage with a grab and converting it into an edgeguard

Am I wrong in this? Is there more to it?

 

[AdmiralSnackbar]

How do you fight vs Samus?

 

[CuteDogIRL]

I'm sorry for asking another question before the last one is answered (I can't answer it because I don't have the experience). But does anyone have advice on the Ice Climber matchup?

I normally grab a lot but in this matchup you can't. Should I just try to stay away and use moves like ftilt and waddle toss? Should I try to stay above them? I only played a good IC a few times so I haven't been able to try everything out, but what I did try all failed. It seems like a really bad match up to me but maybe I'm just not playing it right.

 

[kinje]

I'm sorry for asking another question before the last one is answered (I can't answer it because I don't have the experience). But does anyone have advice on the Ice Climber matchup?

I normally grab a lot but in this matchup you can't. Should I just try to stay away and use moves like ftilt and waddle toss? Should I try to stay above them? I only played a good IC a few times so I haven't been able to try everything out, but what I did try all failed. It seems like a really bad match up to me but maybe I'm just not playing it right.

In my experience, if you can get a quick swallow and spit one out offstage, they're pretty much dead. They should have a hard time getting in on you if you space out aerials and tilts. But really just focus on separating them. Once you separate them, ICs are just two characters with really bad recoveries.

 

[kinje]

How do you fight vs Samus?

Winning the neutral's hard against Samus, but basically, you want to use waddle tricks and mind games to get into the area where you're not so close that she can jab you away or hit you with most of her normals, and not so far that she has time to get out projectiles. Once you get in that position, your goal is just to get her off-stage and edge guard with a clean fair or a bunch of bairs.
Additionally, you should be wary of her tether grab when spacing against her and be aware of her quick combo-breaking nair when going for aerial follow-ups.

 

[CuteDogIRL]

I'll try spacing aerials and tilts better, but I don't think swallow would be very good in this matchup. Swallow is already a slow and risky move when fighting one opponent and it's even worse when you can get punished by one of the two Climbers for swallowing the other. It's not like you spit them out instantly so there's enough time to punish, when they are standing next to each other at least. It might be useful when they are not next to each other though.

 

[kinje]

I'll try spacing aerials and tilts better, but I don't think swallow would be very good in this matchup. Swallow is already a slow and risky move when fighting one opponent and it's even worse when you can get punished by one of the two Climbers for swallowing the other. It's not like you spit them out instantly so there's enough time to punish, when they are standing next to each other at least. It might be useful when they are not next to each other though.

I mean the swallow's not really important to the matchup.
The way I've always done it is to take advantage of the fact that nana shields late a lot of the time and just throw an attack quickly enough that they get separated when popo shields it and she doesn't. Then I grab whichever one's more helpless and toss them offstage.

 

[X0dus]

How is the Ganon vs. DDD match-up? And what should I be doing as Ganon?

 

[kinje]

How is the Ganon vs. DDD match-up? And what should I be doing as Ganon?

Ganon has a pretty predictable/linear recovery and is relatively easy to gimp, so he loses the match-up, but I think it's pretty close. As long as you're careful and don't make too many mistakes, you can make use of well-spaced jumps, hover and safe aerials on shield to pressure us until we crack, and then destroy us with up-airs and bairs since Dedede is such combo food. Try and take us to a small stage where our survivability doesn't come into play. Punch away waddles. Surprise flame chokes lead into pretty easy tech chases. Mix in a wizards foot every once in a while to make us respect your approach and keep us from zoning you out with waddles and f-tilts the whole match. NEVER dash attack our shield.

 

[Omar_25]

What's a good way to fight Lucas?

 

[Apollo Ali]

imo, Lucas starts winning on big stages where he can run around. I take him to small stages and don't let him set up DD or Pk-Freeze camp.