Sovereign Penguin -- DDD MU Discussion

KOkingpin

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#2
King Dedede Vs Ike - 45-55

King Dedede is a slower, more grab reliant version of Ike. With the recent changes to Ike, the match up got quite a bit better. Dedede is one of the few Characters that has the tools to take away Ike's recovery before He can even get started. Ike has a major ground game advantage while Dedede's off stage presence is a a little bit better due to multiple jumps and projectiles. Dedede has a slight grab game advantage due to his grabs leading to better tech chase and his back throw dealing more damage and being a killing option.

All in all Ike has better options in most situations but The king can hold his own as well. Using your Ftilt and Down B to ledge guard Ike and you can win the match up. Rocket Hammer can give you quite the boost on the edge guard.
 

Pimpfish

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#5
i think ddd has a good matchup vs ike. i like to ftilt every time he quickdraws, ike usually will go directly into my ftilt.
i think ddd has a good matchup on everyone
 

Juushichi

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#6
vs. Pit is probably even or maybe like 45-55? We get juggled pretty badly, but he (Pit) really struggles to get out of tech chases and getting off of the ledge.

vs Peach is probably something like 4-6? I just remember struggling a lot with her.

My experience for both is HankyPanky.
 

Fly_Amanita

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#7
I'm not sure why I haven't mentioned this yet, but I'm not crazy about the format in the OP since it presumes that we have an educated guess on how all the MUs work already. I'd prefer something more informal where we just discuss whatever MUs we feel like, which is apparently what we're already doing anyways.

Pit stuff in collapse tag for anybody who wants to talk about that match-up:

@Juushichi: Could you elaborate on how you tech-chase Pit? If you mean with dthrow, I'd think tech away would beat everything except ftilt, waddle toss, and maybe dash-canceled down-B. If he's near the edge, then yeah, you can just react, although that's not Pit-specific.

I don't think Pit has a hard time getting off the edge (ledgehop backwards at a safe time, shoot some arrows, eventually glide -> nair or cross-up dair, although spacing that to beat DDD's uncharged down-B can be hard), so if you have a lot of experience at keeping him from getting back onstage, I'm interested in details.

My limited experience with this match-up makes me feel that it's hard since Pit is generally able to retreat faster than DDD can approach, can still harass DDD with projectiles even if he goes high, and I'd assume has really good punishments out of grabs on DDD (I've been able to get out of the things that have been attempted on me, but I feel that if I played against a DDD as Pit, I could get a lot of mileage off a grab), whereas DDD's punishments to me seem comparatively limited (unless you land something like a last-hit dair, late nair, or uair, but Pit is good at not putting himself in a position to be hit by those). That Pit seems tough to edgeguard is another factor that goes against DDD's strengths.

So, for anybody with experience in the match-up or anybody else who wants to brainstorm ideas, I think these are things worth talking about against Pit:

-How to edgeguard him.
-How to approach him.
-How to land meaningful hits on him.

To kind of lump the last two together, I'm thinking of using more waddle dees since they provide a means of actually moving faster than Pit that doesn't require low platforms. Maybe throw one into an arrow and just follow it for a while and then try to catch the opponent off-guard with a waddle dash to land a hit.
 

Juushichi

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#8
vs. Pit:
@Fly: I was struggling with the tech away option, but I changed up something when it came to tech chasing that I think works a lot of characters. I kinda got it from watching Sheik's get people of her own dthrow, but when I throw people with DDD, I take a small step forward and wait for about a half second. In that position, you can generally catch most techs... I don't really want to say on reaction, but with the small step vs Pit: Hold shield for the tech in place or for the get up attack, you can turn around for the tech behind and I'm pretty sure that you can dash forward + JC Grab to catch the tech away. On smaller stages obviously, it is a bit more potent because there is less chance to escape, but I think that his grab range is just so big that you should reasonably be able to grab most techs with him. You also have things like dsmash, usmash (not really fsmash, but I guess?), f-tilt, waddle toss and jump + inhale or wavebounced inhale.

About the ledge stuff, I mostly just stood about get up attack distance away and reacted. I'll tell Hanky about the jump back + shoot arrows and stuff and see what I can do in situations to beat it, though. I should be playing more tomorrow.

I think that it's a bit on the hard side, but I had to school myself to play a bit more patiently. In neutral, dealing with arrows is a bit difficult because he's so fat and it's more about winning space to start the game that I think getting the hit is. Once I was close, I got a bit of mileage out of jab-> things like jab grab, jab jab wait (something), jab jab-ftilt/dtilt. When I could, I tried to get as much milage out of bair because it lingers a lot and I think attack-to-attack Pit kinda struggles to deal with it, much like in Brawl.

Nair was quite a pain to deal with and I think a spaced nair on shield is kinda hard to deal with and uh... when you're off stage vs Pit... good luck? lol. That part is very very hard. Hm, maybe this is closer to 4-6?

The things that I hit Pit with the most were... waddle, bair, nair, utilt, ftilt. I got some kills with usmash, dsmash (out of Dthrow), bair, fair and fthrow (YS), ftilt (FoD). DDD's best stage in the MU is probably Fountain of Dreams, in my experience. I'll definitely try some more in the coming days.
 

\Apples

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#9
I'd imagine the king wants to take Pit to smaller stages. When Pit has the space to get away, Dedede has a really rough time getting in. I don't have any experience in the matchup at all, though, so I'm hesitant to really say much about it.

I think Dedede remains a very matchup dependent character in P:M, just like he was in vBrawl. Certain matchups, he can easily handle without much thought, but others he just can't really keep up.

In my experience, he's not so hot against small, fast guys like Squirtle and Diddy. The Earthbound kids really give him some trouble. PK Fire just hits you and there's not a lot you can do to get around it. Dedede's jump isn't super fast and he doesn't have the greatest air control, so Ness doesn't have trouble aiming them at him. The same is pretty true for Lucas and his PK Freezes. If he hit confirms a PK Freeze, which is easy to do on Dedede, he can get that DACUS in on him no problem. Follow up with PK Thunder and things just get difficult for Dedede with those three moves alone.

I played about 30 Dedede vs JPuff last week with Vidjogamer, both of us think Dedede takes the crown on that matchup. As it is in most matchups, Dedede's fair is truly his strongest asset against Jigglypuff. If spaced well, she has a really hard time getting past them. A lot like Ganondorf played the matchup in Melee, camping and spacing fairs, except Dedede's is bigger. He can edgeguard her really well too. Obviously, he gets rested easily, though. I'm tempted to give the matchup a 60/40 in Dedede's favor, but I've also only played one Jigglypuff extensively. There are probably some oversights that would pull the matchup one way or the other, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not that extreme, and more like 55/45 DDD.

vs. Pit
vs Peach
My experience for both is HankyPanky.
Lol sup U.S.Armada.
 

Fly_Amanita

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#10
Looks like my last post was lost due to server transfer shenanigans. To reiterate:

My personal experience against Ness is that he feels easy to me. I don't find it difficult to stay out of the space which PK fire covers, and even if it does hit you, SDIing down and away into buffer roll away should beat the most severe punishments you could receive. Outside of PK fire, DDD handily outranges Ness and is really nasty to him in particular once you get him cornered or offstage. I don't have all that much experience in the match-up, though, so I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong. I know BigD has experience against a not-atrocious Ness player, so I'd be interested in his thoughts.
 

KOkingpin

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#13
**** Marth.

That is all.

Smooth Criminal
I feel like Marth is one of Dedede's better match ups. Dedede has a better grab, Dedede has more range, and Dedede stomps marth when off stage. Dedede struggles with shield pressure and Marth does not really have any shield pressure. Dedede can just bat him away and get back to neutral position to out space him.
 

Smooth Criminal

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#14
I dunno, I think a competent Marth can stab at his shield a lot better than you think. Not to mention that Dedede is kind of a fatty and Marth can juggle him around for free.

I'll play around with the match-up a little more. Now that I have someone half-decent around to contend with in Smash, I can actually say more ****.

Also, sup KO. Lol. Haven't seen you in years.

Smooth Criminal
 

\Apples

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#15
I don't feel that Marth is a good matchup at all for Dedede. The characters play very similarly in that they both play to abusing the range of their disjointed hitboxes, but Marth has the advantage over DDD in 2 key areas: neutral game and pressure.

DDD just doesn't have anything outside of DownB to get out of Marth's combos. Nair only really works if the Marth is spacing poorly. Then, obviously Marth has a much easier time punishing DDD than vice versa.

At least, that's my experience with the matchup. The Marths I play don't let up and space well, making this a matchup I really have to work hard in.

:phone:
 

Juushichi

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#16
Yep, Apples pretty much has it right.

DDD really struggles against characters that have ridiculous DD games. That includes Falcon, Marth, Pit, etc because they can maneuvor outside of his range until they get him to act in a way that's favorable for them. I've had problems with all of these characters (some less than others) and it was all me taking chances and reading poor DD's and options. Like... Falcon nair-gentlemen ground combo is buns.

I think Falcon/Marth will end up something like 4-6. Should not be as bad as 3-7 by nature of the game and maybe they'll be dumb enough to give us FoD (probably not because everyone hates that stage). Cement your edgeguards gentlemen. That's the real key, when you can get them there.
 

Shaya

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#17
Dedede gets a good ramp up from jumping and his jumps and ff are insanely fast. Against Marth and Falcon playing near the ledge is the safest, lamest, cheapest, gayest and most effective way to play; where one grab at nearly any point -should- be a stock.
 

Fly_Amanita

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#18
That it's the most effective way to play is a pretty bold claim in this underdeveloped metagame. I can see that being true against Falcon (there's a precedent for playing that way with some characters in Melee; Samus, for example, fights him by the edge a lot), but I think it's a poor idea against Marth considering how strong he is against cornered opponents. His pressure is hard to deal with and it's really not hard for him to avoid getting grabbed by DDD, considering his comparable range, generally low cooldown, and great mobility. That said, knowing how to fight Marth when near the edge is important since he's reasonably good at shoving DDD there, but it's not a position I would actively seek out.
 

\Apples

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#19
Couldn't agree more. Being cornered by Marth is uncomfortable as any character, why would DDD of all characters be an exception? That's not even to mention Marth's edgeguarding on DDD. You wanna talk about easy? Marth has it just as easy as D3 does in this MU.

I wanted to bring up two things here.
1. Do any of you ever use swallow on-stage? I do on occasion, I've found it has its place, but I'm curious if any of you have found niche uses for it in certain matchups or anything.

2. DownB. I've found this move to be the only thing that can keep me safe in some situations, but I've also been toying with it lately vs Fox a lot, and I speculate it has its uses against Falco as well.

Aside from the obvious UThrow > DownB on spacies at low %'s, if you're playing a campy Fox, he probably likes to go in after you've come in just a tad too close with a Fair, and tries to SHFFL in a nair at you as you land, maybe go for a grab, etc. I've found that if I just breach that distance from Fox, getting right on the edge of his range (which is dashing and SHFFLing Nair), you can bait him perfectly into running into a DownB. I don't usually try this until the Fox is around 80% or so, hoping I can hit him off-stage with it or at the very least move in closer to him while he's on the ledge. Doing this too much though, they'll begin to try and bait you into doing it. So I do not advise spamming this tactic.

Vs Falco, might be able to squeeze a DownB in between his lasers as he comes at you, probably not though. I haven't played a Falco in a bit.
 

Shaya

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#20
Inhale is different from brawl in where the windbox isn't shieldable. Changes how strong it is for a landing choice as well as requiring a lot of characters to need to use aerials to beat it and their ground options aren't always sufficient.

Waddle dee toss is almost a completely different move in it's new versatility. You can angle/curve the trajectory of it like boomerang (minus it bouncing [well, they do bounce, sometimes really quickly if the RNG is on your side]). After the first initial throw, rethrowing them is close to completely lagless.
On stage, you can lightly throw it angled slightly upwards and -any horizontal shove- and then have it trail diagonally downwards after the initial hop. While still in the air, it remains a constant, large-ish hitbox. You can breverse them from the air for silly landing mixups (something like "uh oh, bairs not going to work!!!! b-reverse side b, waddle dee does what it does even if you hadn't breversed, but dedede teleports a nice fair distance").

Angling them downwards from the air similar to sheik's needles is... weird and I haven't gotten used to it yet (as the moment it touches the ground it loses the hitbox), but using it to destroy recoveries in this way is pretty special. If you have the time, you pre-throw out one waddle dee in front of you, throw another one, then laglessly throw the first (so one angled upwards and the other thrown downwards) and then use the power of hover hands hammers for free stocks.

The base knockback and the slow growth allows any hitconfirm to be relatively simple for rar bair (using the jumpsquat ramp up thing whatever you guys call it) or just forward air. At certain percents you can use nair (slight knockback) into rethrowing waddle dee into the same thing again or as subscribed any aerial. Up Smash is also great.

While he isn't supreme mobility horizontally, he's reaaaaaaaally up there in terms of vertical mobility. His jumps are faster to rise than in Brawl and his fast fall currently goes faster than Project M's camera can adjust to (although PM's camera isn't exactly bugfree; so in the 1/5 chance that your long fast fall completely disorientates the game and messes up your opponent in a silly dumb way is great). Air dodging upwards into a fast fall will get through fox'/marth's uair juggles (not consistently at sh height but otherwise its effective).
 

9Kplus1

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#21
hey look I'm not dead and the OP has been updated!

I'm confident that enough of you have played the Marth MU to ensure that this discussion is an unambiguous one. If there's anything at all I'd missed that needs to be covered in this MU discussion, please speak up so I can update the OP asap.
 

\Apples

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#22
Ofc, given the state of DDD's metagame, this MU, like most, will need to be revisited at some point. I don't have the best judgement, but common sense would tell you that anchoring down and discussing specific MUs definitely assists in hastening the development of a characters metagame. So, if anyone would like to oppose discussion about individual match-ups on the grounds that said discussion is occurring 'too soon' or anything of the sort, then, uh, go away.
This is great. So is the rest of the OP. I agree completely, this is the direction every character's specific forum should be going.
 

\Apples

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#24
What other matchups should we talk about next? I figure we all probably have decent experience against the top Melee veterans due to the fact that their metagames are much more developed already and people play them often. Thoughts?

What characters have you been losing to, Juu? Do you think it's DDD's or your fault? I wanna talk more matchups.
 

ss118

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#25
Hello. I am articanus, a melee marth player from GA. Sometimes people know me and sometimes people don't, but regardless I thought I would put that out here.

I would like to start off by saying that DDD makes me the saltiest person when it comes to this game. I swear he has a 5 frame grab and grab range that makes Marth's ***** wet from envy.

Anyway, more on the actual match-up. Before I start going into details I believe the match-up is completely even. 50-50, 5-5, 1-1. However you want to put it. The only reason Marth keeps up with DDD whatsoever is because of his naturally stupid character design, so at least I have that to work with. However, I feel like a more optimized DDD might even have an advantage in the match-up.

Just because I glanced at it, I would like to mention DDDs weakness to anyone with a good DD game. Being a Marth main, I know how to dash dance. Aside from him I use Fox and Falcon; I know how to flick the controller back and forth and I can do it very well. However, I honestly don't see why DDing is a problem to DDD. He has a permanent way to deal with it with his side-b, and it's not like it's so punishable that you can jump over it and hit him(without being in range to just be CCed grabbed) or even react to it and avoid it together. And no, "just hitting it" doesn't work that well either since Marth does have lag, contrary to popular belief. If DDD gets any chance to create space between Marth and himself, some little ****ing waddle dee is going to be in between them in 0.5 seconds. Hell, a character that just DDs and punishes unsafe stuff actually creates the distance so you can get one out. I think DDing is one of the worst things to do against a DDD on even ground with you, making Final Destination my least favorite stage to fight against a DDD. Finally you have a f-tilt; just throw it out if they feel like DDing a lot, I promise you decent results.

On a platform stage maybe this would get better, but imo it doesn't. DDD is a stupid combination of Marth and Ganon when it comes to that, having aerials that come with surprising speed, great power, and finally abusive range. The range I would argue is enough to take advantage of even a Marth, as long as you avoid being directly below him. Yes DDD's dair cannot beat Marth's uair, however you have stupidly fast falling speed and multiple jumps. You can outplay him and if he dedicates himself to a uair you have a safe landing zone. So imo on platform stages DDD can take more advantage, and he doesn't fair badly against marths usually stupid juggle game.

Maybe on the subject of combos, Marth wins. But when did comboing make you a good character? Sure the best characters usually do combo, but what makes DDD so terrifying in this match-up is his untouchable atmosphere around him. I have to really grow a pair and go for something to be able to start momentum before this fatass ****ing penguin, and I never feel like he has to do the same because he can force you onto him between waddles and everything bdhSABDKdsanbfkjASDKDKJFDSK yes I raged while typing.

Just shield grab marth when he aerials your shield. Just do it. It works. Usually marth can do the inner-tipper fair and be relatively safe against shield with a dash afterwards, but against this ******* if you don't do anything outside of the most most perfect outer tipper fair you get grabbed. Always. And DDD throws you offstage and attempts to freely gimp you, or just up and attempts to hit you... well, off stage.

Speaking of off stage, DDD wins there too. DDD is a stupid combination of Jiggs and Samus when it comes to recovering; a Samus that recovers high continuously takes FOREVER to kill. Even if it's easy to knock off stage, it's a continuously effort. And unlike Samus, he can cancel his momentum on reaction to go back to the edge, or just go forward. And there's always the threat of it just hitting you and killing you. Jiggs because double jumps plus aerials; going out to edgeguard jiggs is harsh because if she manages to hit you, she can kill you. DDD does that, with aerials comparable to marth and ganon. Not nice. DDD can also run off the stage to edgeguard marth and if marth trades, then he dies.

tl; dr, DDD is the best character in project M and is a gay ******. Why doesn't everyone use him? idk
 

Shaya

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#26
Dedede against Marth is a game of taking hits and DIing well until you get around 60-80%, and then Marth suddenly has nothing out of any single hit and suddenly you'll be living to 200% and every grab can result in a stock or a lot of damage.

My exaggerations may hurt, but this is the general gist of how it goes.
 

\Apples

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#27
I guess that's true, Marth does have trouble killing at high %'s and Dedede survives like it's his job.

...but thankfully Dedede is easy as hell to edgeguard once he has to UpB.
 

Juushichi

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#29
Characters I was losing to:

Marth, Bowser, Sheik, DK, Wolf, Falco, Fox, Wario, Pikachu.

I could probably just need more experience with defense and stuff, but it felt like I could not keep them off me long enough to mount some sort of offense.
 

\Apples

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#30
I usually have trouble against most of those characters as well. I have experience vs and as Dedede against most of those characters, as 4%APR also plays Dedede pretty well.

There's just nothing you can really do about Bowser's Flamethrower, it spaces so well. Then if you happen to get close to him, he just UpB's OOS to the ledge. Pretty unfair.

Pika's Thunderjolt actually gives Dedede some trouble. He can spam them faster than DDD can throw Waddles, and Dedede has to double jump to get over them quickly unless you catch the TJ early. Kind of a similar deal with Falco and his lasers.
 

\Apples

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#32
Well, that's typically an obvious strategy to employ versus projectiles. I'm pretty much always trying to powershield everything, but I'm talking about more reliable and consistent strategies.
 

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#33
If you're having issues with bowser flame thrower, you can definitely side b from above him angled downwards. Power shielding is pretty essential against both Pika/Falco to not get your **** kicked in, and considering those projectiles are consistent in terms of start up time, trajectory and the time it takes for that it just takes... a bit of practice; it's a shame they didn't keep brawl's 3 frames of power shields. Those two characters are the ones that I would get two waddles onto the stage from the ledge (ledge drop angled upwards to land over the lip) and if they come towards you, good, if they don't its a bit of patience/comes down to the stage.

Also you can try people's patience just by starting d3's multi jab for pika's bolts (not falco's lasers obviously due to transcendent), but it will clank and continue the multi hit jab ad infinitum and Pika needs to be directly above your head to tjolt to get past that.
 

\Apples

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#34
You can't indefinitely multi-hit jab with Dedede...

I feel like you're really over-estimating the usefulness of Waddle Dees as a projectile. Either that or I'm really missing something here. Waddle Dees in my experience have not been effective vs Bowser's Flamethrower at all.
 

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#35
Flamethrower has a blind spot that side b can hit him from. If it isn't a consistent means of it then what result is doing side-b having? Can you punish that result with baits, can you pressure him into something you can punish easier and harder?

The toss is a good projectile because it:
1. has boomerang angles. If you can hit it with toon links boomerang, it can be hit with an angled toss. It doesn't bounce, so yes that's cutting out the extension of boomerang.
2. Although laggy on first throw, rethrowing it has next to no lag. The way the projectiles reacts to certain situations is easy to learn and understand to make the most of reusing your toss-mate.
3. It causes clashes, specifically hitlag inducing (i.e. an extra 5+ frames added to Marth's lag from fairing a tosser that doesn't hit you equates to something). Some things go through it, some things clank and cancel. ZSS nair hits through it with that electric modifier in a way that isn't really useful for us at all, but other characters are made slightly weaker usually.
4. Gordo has a much higher chance of coming out. It's a giant, fast projectile that bounces itself and kills at stupid percent. If you do some boomerang hijynx you can have it keeping relatively motionless in a certain place covering your approach with a giant killing transcended (doesn't clash, goes through everything) hitbox that lasts for a long time. It is common enough.
5. Waddle Doos have a similar "here's a wall thingy" that gives dedede a shield + zoning properties. Just as the doo starts shooting lasers you can toss and get that hitbox to travel with it very briefly. It has its usages. Once its started to laser shoot there is a massive "you can't do anything safe near this right now" and if the opponent doesn't know it, they're going to get ****ed.

Dedede has been given a really good projectile in this game. It really is good.
 

\Apples

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#36
Gordo is not fast, lmao.

Throwing waddles is how you get punished the most, in my experience. You throw up, they run in underneath. You throw low, the jump above. If they're a fast character, you just gave up the neutral game.

Vs Bowser, if you throw a Waddle Dee over the flames, whether you jump or not, Bowser can just end the flames or get hit, either is pretty unpunishable for DDD.

Obviously the waddles are amazing if you can throw them again after the initial throw, but typically, that doesn't happen if your opponent knows how to deal with them... which in most cases means ignoring it because it's just going to keep walking behind you.

It has uses, and if my opponent is far from me, I'll throw one out just to give myself the potential re-use of it in the near future, but spamming them is far from good. You're describing this projectile as if DDD can actually camp well with it, I have not found this to be the case unless your opponent is afraid of you in the first place and the stage is relatively wide.
 

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#37
I don't think you can camp with it. It's a pressure reducing tool that also has approaching aspects.

If you "smash" throw and release a gordo, it does go fast. Unless they changed that from brawl to project m.

If people are keeping outside of your ftilt range, not many characters seem to be just "jumping above you" or "running under you" to get onto you (obviously range aspects of different characters apply here).
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
#38
I could say a lot, but I'm going to keep this terse.

1) Side-B is okay. It has reasonably good utility in that it can get a waddle out (which is convenient for reasons everybody already knows) and it can randomly kill sometimes. It also has some weird, but nice recovery applications. That said, the regular side-B toss itself as an attack is pretty meh. The reward for hitting somebody with a random waddle is rather low; it is often punishable (especially when used while airborne), and even when not, it's very easy to defend against. It's still a good move, all in all, but I think it's being overrated here.

2) I don't find firebreath too threatening. If you get hit by it, SDI down and away and buffer a roll away. You generally take about 20% and reset to a neutral position. The safe thing to do is just wait for it to end go back to fighting him normally. If you want to, you can try punishing firebreath with fair from above (sometimes loses to angled-up firebreath), or ftilt once the fire gets smaller or when he stops or something. I generally just accept the damage and try to get a positional advantage as he finishes, if possible. I dealt with it a few times decently in these games. My opponent's use of firebreath was mostly bad, but there were some times when he used it decently well and I managed to deal with it.
 

\Apples

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
488
Location
Kirkland, Washington
#39
See like this Bowser isn't using Flamethrower well. I'll examine this on a case-by-case basis.

http://youtu.be/OaVZMHh2yu8?t=4m36s
-Here, he sidesteps as you SDI and buffer a roll away and Dedede still barely gets to him in time.

http://youtu.be/OaVZMHh2yu8?t=4m52s
-Here, it's really close but he only gets hit by the fair because he dash attacked at Dedede.

http://youtu.be/OaVZMHh2yu8?t=6m41s
-And here, he again just doesn't properly take advantage of the situation he just reset. Just like in the former cases, he created space between himself and Dedede but didn't properly utilize it afterwards.

Sure, Dedede accepts the damage, but how many times until he's accumulated enough damage that a Bowser Fair kills him? Not many times.

http://youtu.be/OaVZMHh2yu8?t=9m16s
-And then there's this, the best use of flamethrower by far. Bowser has the ledge to retreat to with UpB (broken tactic) and he has excellent ledge options as well. (it's arguable that his ledge options are less spectacular vs Dedede, but the point still remains)

Also this Bowser plays sooo unsafe. D3 has sick combos on him.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
58
Location
Orlando, FL
#40
I don't have much of a problem with Fox or Falco but I can see why Pika, Bowser and Shiek gives DDD trouble. Side b is good as a pressure nullifier against projectiles but it's not good as an opener since something like laser will more often hit you before the waddle comes out.

On marth I don't understand why everyone is scared of that match up either. Yea Marth beats DDD's neutral game but dancing gets beat by f-tilt, DDD's chain grabs are wonderful and he edgeguards Marth easy. Once you start succeding with f-tilt you can train marth to eat downb all day and then he has nothing.

So yea DDD loses the neutral game but it's still manageable and can easily be turned around.
 
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