Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Dark Sonic]

I'll fight him. I live in Orlando. Not that close, but it's not NY.

 

[da K.I.D.]

also, pivot grab is a big move anyone with an extended grab.
lucas, yoshi, samus, link, tink, zamus. its always a factor, even if they dont use it as often

 

[Browny]

lol... took me like a minute to realise his name was actually 'n00b'

btw i dont think samus will be living longer on any stock. KO'ing with anything other than dtilt requires quite high %'s, and samus' love to dair for as many KO's as possible but thats completely out of the question vs sonic. Sonic should be going for a KO with f/dsmash at 125% and if dodging the dtilt while going for the KO is hard at least he has the bair as well. remember not only does samus have trouble landing the KO moves, shes trying to land one on one of the hardest characters in the game to actually land a KO move on...

btw ill test it later, but how many of sonics move cancel out samus' projectiles?
i saw an fsmash cancel out a fully charged charge shot yesterday so i figure his ftilt should at least cancel out the missiles too. fair might too

 

[n00b]

****, it's pretty near impossible to try to help you guys out on this matchup on your own boards without being met with elitist doubt and questioning. Obviously I don't know Sonic as well as you do, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. As for his recovery options, I don't know the standard terminology for the techniques, but I'm sure you guys are aware that Sonic can cancel his forward B approach with a shield, and he can sling in an arc in the air when he recovers. My sentence structure might have been vague, I did not mean that he could shoot an arc out of his up B spring.

Sorry for wasting your time (and mine).

 

[da K.I.D.]

its funny, cause sonic can cancel/ shred through just about any projectiles.
against projectiles, sonic has. like, god priority. but against other characters, its straight awful

 

[da K.I.D.]

well the thing is if you come in here talking about the matchup between your character adn our character, we are obviously going to know more about our character and you are going to know more about your own, and as such, you should limit your comments to things that you know as a certainty about your own character. it looks bad when you assume things about sonic, or try to tell us what he can do. cus obviously, we know what we are capable of. you should limit your comment to things that you are sure of that you know about samus, as you can see, thats exactly what we are doing

 

[Greenstreet]

ummm hey kid. the sdr gets beat by every1 of samus' prjectiles tho. even an uncharged shot hurts us out of the sdr. (altho we duck under the missiles most of the time)
n00b i appreciate u trying to help, its just the things u r saying at the moment dont seem to be proper issues in a sonic/samus battle...
+as soon as anyone throws inaccurate data in a thread, their credibility goes real far down. whether i, or any1 shoots down ur views, if u didnt give them in the first place 1. u had no chance to b corrected and improve ur knowledge and 2. we wudnt hav thought about it.

but if u want to vs me so we can get some serious info on this matchup itd b fine by me.

 

[son1cunleashed]

You guys should really stop ganging up on him. @_@ It's not like he came here to start ****. Besides, he already admitted is lack of knowledge on Sonic's part, why continue to barrage him with hateful comments? He's a very good Samus player and just came here to provide insight.

 

[n00b]

you should limit your comment to things that you are sure of that you know about samus, as you can see, thats exactly what we are doing

Exactly.

6. We are better off on stages with low cielings, because Samus hasn't really got the capacity to star ko (terms and conditions apply).

Samus's main KO move is the dtilt, which does indeed star KO at about 140%. (This means that your point is completely inaccurate and your credibiltiy "goes real far down".)

That's probably the last you'll hear from me. Good luck with the matchup thread, I'm sure there will be plenty of other knowledgeable Samus players to chime in.

EDIT in response to GreenSt: Thanks for the offer to settle this via wi-fi. I'm flattered, really, it's cute and all, but I'll have to pass.

 

[Greenstreet]

You can't SHAD zair, afaik. Short-hopping it is the usual way to use it. Some people claim to be able to SHFF a full length Zair (SHFFZ lol), but i've never seen it in a vid or been able to do it myself.

Zair is weakest against short characters that can close gaps early, because the hitbox is always at the same height as samus, but travels along the beam (ie near the tip). In other words, if you start it at a height where it will hit a short character at a distance, it won't hit them if they are close. You can hold onto it and do a half-zair, but in many cases it is still not possible to hit.

Against sonic samus uses tilts, aerials like landing fair and uncharged shots. Uair is a great follow up to a d-tilt at low percents. Any horizontal hit to samus will result in a MC, slowing down sonic's follow up and often allowing counter approach.

Samus' game in this MU is to approach sonic to try and shut down his many mix-ups and lightning approach. On the other hand, she has to space well to take advantage of her tilt range.

Ground game is probably sonic's but samus' excellent tilts and superior aerial game (combined with d'tilt, which allows her to put sonic in the air in the 1st place) put this back to a neutral imo. Due to the hedgehog's light weight, it could even be argued for samus. I also think samus can get the kill easier in this fight with charge shot, d-smash and d-tilt.

Both characters have clear advantages over the other, so the match is going to come down to who gets to play their game. I call even.

@n00b: hate to see u go. still want a match tho?

@throwback: an aussie samus! want a match some time soon? (p.s. it seems u hav good insight on this matchup)

 

[da K.I.D.]

Exactly.



Samus's main KO move is the dtilt, which does indeed star KO at about 140%. (This means that your point is completely inaccurate and your credibiltiy "goes real far down".)

That's probably the last you'll hear from me. Good luck with the matchup thread, I'm sure there will be plenty of other knowledgeable Samus players to chime in.

EDIT in response to GreenSt: Thanks for the offer to settle this via wi-fi. I'm flattered, really, it's cute and all, but I'll have to pass.

thats what i mean, those are exactly the kinds of things that we need to know that we wont know as sonic mains, i hope you stay around to provide insight on your character. i personally appreciate it. thats why i dont put myself out there making assumptions abut a character i know nothing about. i just put in the things i know about sonic and the shallow pool of things i know about samus.

like she tall, so shes not as hard to hit, and shes heavy, and therefore harder to kill. but there are things that we wont know unless a samus main tells us

for example, do her floatyness and n-air still make for a nasty combo breaker?

 

[Tenki]

^
@KID's floaty/n-air comment: YES.

The biggest problem for Sonic is that Samus has a good aerial game and very quick hitstun recovery, meaning she can N-air or use some other aerial out of almost any juggles that you try :[

Star KO via spring aerials is almost pointless to try on Samus, unless you can space her height and read the player's reaction (to airdodge or to try to outprioritize you?) to land a U-air. Maybe even a B-air, if the player DI's upward.

I was not aware of these ATs.

Unfortunately (or in the competitive sense, fortunately), not everyone knows about them, which is why some people like Shadowlink get really defensive (offensive?lol) when statements like that are said :[

****, it's pretty near impossible to try to help you guys out on this matchup on your own boards without being met with elitist doubt and questioning. Obviously I don't know Sonic as well as you do, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. As for his recovery options, I don't know the standard terminology for the techniques, but I'm sure you guys are aware that Sonic can cancel his forward B approach with a shield, and he can sling in an arc in the air when he recovers.

I kinda covered the first part of this with the last quote.

@spin moves:
If he actually launched into the air and cancelled on landing, it was down-B. Aerial down-B is "properly" called an aerial Spin Charge, so we call it ASC cause it sounds cool.
If he never actually released his charge and shielded to stop it, it was side-B.

slinging in an arc when he recovers... probably spinshot.


XD silly Sonic and all those terms.

its funny, cause sonic can cancel/ shred through just about any projectiles.
against projectiles, sonic has. like, god priority. but against other characters, its straight awful

I've had ASC destroy missiles.

Then I've had ASC destroyed by missiles :[

probably stale moves.

EDIT in response to GreenSt: Thanks for the offer to settle this via wi-fi. I'm flattered, really, it's cute and all, but I'll have to pass.

;__; I'm closer. I've only fought one good Samus with a decent connection, but we only played one round, since he went ZSS the next round ,'/

We should play, just for the heck of it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if he plays you, 20$ says he comes back here saying
"holy crap, sonic can so some amazing stuff. that guy is really good"

lol if he does, you can never say that you are bad ever again

 

[Xyro77]

Since im the best samus on SWF, ill play any of you sonic guys just so you can see if sonic does well or does not do well. AIM me at xyro77 or PM me tomorrow and ill play all you guys.

IMO sonic has a slight and i mean SLIGHT advantage

 

[Greenstreet]

ok. i'll give it a go, but be aware there may be massive, massive lag, i have a good connection so lets hope it aint too bad.

(that kinda rhymed)

 

[Browny]

lol GS, with the lag between here and the US is so much you could probably spam HA the entire game and there would be little samus could do against it :/

Throwback if you ever come back to this thread... im sure i could play you too to give some opinions on the matchup

 

[Throwback]

I'm still here but my wifi is terrible to the point of unplayable, for the random 4 player matches at least. Haven't tried a 1v1 by wifi, I play all my matches real-time. Happy to try though, PM me about it if you want.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Since im the best samus on SWF, ill play any of you sonic guys just so you can see if sonic does well or does not do well. AIM me at xyro77 or PM me tomorrow and ill play all you guys.

IMO sonic has a slight and i mean SLIGHT advantage

I'm not gonna play you because I'm English and so the lag would murder us and there are better Sonic players out there then myself. You wouldn't know of any English Samus players, would you? I've only played one (I forget who, though ¬_¬) and IMO Sonic has a very slight advantage, 55:45 or 60:40, though probably the former.
Projectiles aren't TOO hard to get around. Sonic being fast and all it's not hard to close the gap to stop the spam, and once it comes to close range fighting Sonic has the advantage there.
Zair didn't bother me too much. It barely hit me tbh. I don't know if anyone else has a problem with it though.
I'd avoid getting Samus into the air, although she's big, hitstun seems to affect her less so she'll probably hit you out of aerial combos with nair or something. If you're going to follow her into the air, then do it from below, bait out a dair because the lag is punishable from it and then do whatever you want to her.
Both characters will have a hard time killing each other at a decent percent, both will be having to wait til about 140%~. Samus' best kill move (IMO) is her dtilt (even if the range is a little bad and it has punishable ending lag). It seems to star KO well on stages with lower ceilings, so I'd choose a stage with a higher ceiling like Final Destination, because it won't really affect your ability to star KO with uair. Keep either bair or fsmash unstaled for the kill.

Yeah, well, English Samus pl0x? I'm only pretty limited to what I know against Samus because I've only had a few games with one.

 

[IceDX]

Samus match up vs Sonic to my opinion is 50/50

 

[da K.I.D.]

if xyro is the best samus, and 3000 is the best sonic, and 3000 consistently places higher that xyro in tourneys, doesnt that mean sonic should be higher than samus on the tier list

 

[da K.I.D.]

just sayin...

 

[R4ZE]

1. Sonic can't be spiked
2. samus is tall, (like c-falcon),Heavy... makes a great ASC combo target.
3. ASC CAN go thru missiles, depending on which is more stale.
4. samus has a tether grab, further making ASC an applicable move choice.


I think all in all... samus suffers form weaknesses that olimar AND captain falcon have.

Looking at it like that, I would say the matchup is like.. 60/40...



but in reality.. i have fought a good samus player, if you add in all the aerials that samus has... I would say the matchup is slightly in sonic's favor.. similar to link vs sonic.. i give it a 55/45 in sonics favor.

sonic can still chase kill samus pretty easily.
So basicly.. avoid Fsmash, dtilt... high priority aerials. and u should be good.

 

[Throwback]

Not arguing with your call but by your logic above, all sonic has to do is avoid samus' ground and air game...is that possible for any character?

edit: Ignore this post, it's pretty worthless. Dunno what I was thinking...

 

[Greenstreet]

Sorry I didn't get around to vs'ing you last night Throw...I completely forgot Let me know if you want to organise another time.
Discussion been a bit vague, but I played a Samus this morning so I'll try and fill in some of our info as much as I can.
Really want to know about behaviour I guess, it's sems to be dead atm.

 

[Tenki]

1. Sonic can't be spiked
2. samus is tall, (like c-falcon),Heavy... makes a great ASC combo target.
3. ASC CAN go thru missiles, depending on which is more stale.
4. samus has a tether grab, further making ASC an applicable move choice.

1. Ohoho, you'd think so, but not if the person trying to spike you knows where Sonic's vulnerability points are and can mindgame at least 1 yomi level. dNES knows what I'm talking about lol.
2. Would be true, except on a stale ASC, she can N-air you before you pull an aerial out.
3. Ay.
4. Samus has a retaliatory up-B out of shield lol.

------

PS i wanna play xyro for the lulz

 

[darkNES386]

1. Ohoho, you'd think so, but not if the person trying to spike you knows where Sonic's vulnerability points are and can mindgame at least 1 yomi level. dNES knows what I'm talking about lol.
2. Would be true, except on a stale ASC, she can N-air you before you pull an aerial out.
3. Ay.
4. Samus has a retaliatory up-B out of shield lol.

------

PS i wanna play xyro for the lulz

You read me like a book... ganon spike had me rolling my eyes. We'll have to get some more matches in sometime soon.

 

[disguy]

I wish I had all these insights on a variety of play styles and characters, but the people I play with only main snake, lucas, pit, young link, and lucario. Most of the time though I play against snake and pit. I would play more ppl online, but online sucks .

 

[da K.I.D.]

i read playing to win, i know the yomi. but against samus spamming spring right after you get spiked, should save you until at least 140-150, and at that point shes going for other moves anyway most likely

 

[Napilopez]

Sonic and Samus can both roll into little spheres... so this match-up is even.

 

[Greenstreet]

actually strategic pausing on sonics d-smash prove that it isnt quite a sphere.

 

[R4ZE]

sonic went 2d in some old shows when he went in spin dash, more liek a saw blade.

 

[Tenki]

sonic fanboys.
get back on topic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I would have to say around 60-40 Sonic's advantage.
Projectile spam is not difficult to get around and teh Zair isn't difficult either.
THe issue is how she follows up her projectile spam. Dtilts, Dsmash, Utilt, Dash attack. She has a good number of options out of it. You can get around through spindash and spincharge as well as spinshotting.

One issue is being in the air. Samus can play a defensive aerial game which can be somewhat bothersome.

Fair can be an annoyance since though you can DI away from it, its still walling you and you want to minimize damage.

Her Uair is ****.
Bair isn't so bad its very predictable.
Dair is very predictable.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i am not a fanboy tenki... stop being such a hater

 

[ROOOOY!]

You know what I hate? Sonic's Dsmash. It's honestly like my 3rd least favourite move.
Again it proves it's fail by being TOO SLOW to use in a spotdodge war against Samus, as hers is far less suckish. I know running away is really what you've got to do, but run away and you're going to get projectile spammed again. Running away defeats the advantage of actually having successfully approached her up close, which is her weak point IMO.
I'm still thinking it's either neutral or Sonic's advantage, though. It's not Like Samus can really force you to go aerial like Link can, her bombs aren't insta-explode.

Tenki, did you ever play Xyro? It seems like not many people have played Samus'. I've played two different ones, one being pretty darn good and the other being ok and have like won most of the games to be honest.
We need moar insight into this match-up, people!

 

[Tenki]

You know what I hate? Sonic's Dsmash. It's honestly like my 3rd least favourite move.
Again it proves it's fail by being TOO SLOW to use in a spotdodge war against Samus, as hers is far less suckish. I know running away is really what you've got to do, but run away and you're going to get projectile spammed again. Running away defeats the advantage of actually having successfully approached her up close, which is her weak point IMO.
I'm still thinking it's either neutral or Sonic's advantage, though. It's not Like Samus can really force you to go aerial like Link can, her bombs aren't insta-explode.

Tenki, did you ever play Xyro? It seems like not many people have played Samus'. I've played two different ones, one being pretty darn good and the other being ok and have like won most of the games to be honest.
We need moar insight into this match-up, people!

Sonic should never be in a [spotdodge] > [D-smash] mentality, anyway.

`.`; I use D-smash the same way I would F-smash, which is usually (..lol recently) charge it near them [spotdodge bait] and release after half a second.

Except (not against Samus though), you can use a D-smash and its little ending lag to bait a movement and get a grab.

Samus forcing you into the air isn't the problem as it is you having to fight Samus in the air, if that makes sense.

btw, Z-air can hit Sonic on the floor, regardless of if he's spindashing or not.

No, I didn't get to play Xyro. I still feel like this is Neutral or slightly Samus's favor though `.`;

 

[ROOOOY!]

But that's what I'm getting at. You don't need to follow her into the air, and she has no tools to make you need to go aerial, so that's that problem sorted. From time to time when they were landing I'd do an airdodged shorthop, and most of the time you could punish the very short lag that her aerials seem to have if you could bait one out of her.
And I wasn't aware of the zair hitting me in a spindash deal. My opponents must have been doing it wrong.

 

[Tenki]

But that's what I'm getting at. You don't need to follow her into the air, and she has no tools to make you need to go aerial, so that's that problem sorted. From time to time when they were landing I'd do an airdodged shorthop, and most of the time you could punish the very short lag that her aerials seem to have if you could bait one out of her.
And I wasn't aware of the zair hitting me in a spindash deal. My opponents must have been doing it wrong.

If Samus keeps SH every single moment possible, then what? What are you going to hit her with? Dash attack? U-smash?

She can use bombs to act as her 'cover' in case you try to grab, and well-timed Z-airs to hit grounded Sonic.

Her slower / delayed projectiles are problematic because they're so slow. They can buy her the time she'd need to stall invincibility frames off a ledgehog and Z-air back, or just slow down someone who's trying to approach, so she can use a different move.

I guess... you just don't want Samus to get her stage control set up lol

 

[R4ZE]

wlel that is like.. the perfect samus..


and anyway... just trick her acting before you attack, strike at the vulnerable moments.

doesent sonic have to do that every time he hits mk and snake anyway?

 

[aeghrur]

AH, WHAT IS THIS Z-AIR I KEEP HEARING ABOUT? >.< I know what's a uair, dair, nair, fair, and bair, there's ANOTHER air? O_O

Edit: If sonic has to play Samus as though she were MK, I doubt it'd be an even match up, lol.