Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Kinzer]

Actually G2, I'm going to be going to a tournament Monday, so I would prefer not to pick up on any bad habits Wi-Fi might give me.

Still... he needs practice... I'll see if anybody in town feels like keeping my Sonic at top-shape.

Edit: We have to theorycraft, the only sure to get a correct matchup description is to have like every good Sonic fight every good Olimar out there, and due to reality, we won't be able to do that, so we have to go with debating like we are now.

Okay, looking at some points in no particular order...

I thought I heard somewhere that if something is ranged enough to be able to hit Olimar, it will interrupt his grab. I can understand that, seeing as how it's the pikmin doing the work.

You're right, it is more efficient to edgehog, simply holding on to the ledge with the invincibility frames at the point where Olimar's second jump won't get him back onto the stage is good enough.

Remember when I said SDJ into any aerial? This also applies for Spinshot into a Boxobair, he'll tell you that no doubt. Olimar has nothing to cover his back, because by the time Olimar tries to turn his back even if the Bair for example gets shielded, Sonic will just runaway. It takes time to drop a shield and moreso turn around. I must admit maybe them Olimains won't spam FSmash, but you're talking like the SBR and thinking Sonic is a barebone character like Ike with no ATs.

Because Olimar without his grounded Tether has no other ways to protect that angle covering somewhere between 45 degrees, and unless he wants to get ***** by Sonic either uses that or an aerial, and Bairs outprioritize his Fair/Nair thanks to its disjointedness if Olimar wants to go aerial.

"for everything else, there is Bair."

 

[Chis]

I'll fight you again Jeff.

 

[Ryan-K]

and i've provided facts that stem beyond "the olimar will get bored" so I don't see how it's a debate if people don't acknowledge facts

 

[Kinzer]

look at the editted post, and go from there.

 

[Boxob.]

Yo kinzer, Ryan knows A LOT about smash, I wouldn't try to argue with him.

Besides, Bair's too slow to compete with Oli's fair.

 

[Ryan-K]

Okay, looking at some points in no particular order...

I thought I heard somewhere that if something is ranged enough to be able to hit Olimar, it will interrupt his grab. I can understand that, seeing as how it's the pikmin doing the work.

if olimar grabs them he gets super armor

You're right, it is more efficient to edgehog, simply holding on to the ledge with the invincibility frames at the point where Olimar's second jump won't get him back onto the stage is good enough.

Remember when I said SDJ into any aerial? This also applies for Spinshot into a Boxobair, he'll tell you that no doubt. Olimar has nothing to cover his back, because by the time Olimar tries to turn his back even if the Bair for example gets shielded, Sonic will just runaway. It takes time to drop a shield and moreso turn around. I must admit maybe them Olimains won't spam FSmash, but you're talking like the SBR and thinking Sonic is a barebone character like Ike with no ATs.

olimar doesnt need to cover his back. if sonic runs away, bfd, olimar has projectiles and way more range, olimar WANTS you to run away, he doesnt want to be up close lol

also WTF who cares about advanced **** like gimmicks, techniques dont make a ****ing character. snake is probably the simplest character to play yet look at him. ness in melee has tricks up the *** and he sucks. if tricks make a character then mk, falco, etc suck. TRICKS DONT MAKE A ****ING CHARACTER. holy ****

Because Olimar without his grounded Tether has no other ways to protect that angle covering somewhere between 45 degrees, and unless he wants to get ***** by Sonic either uses that or an aerial, and Bairs outprioritize his Fair/Nair thanks to its disjointedness if Olimar wants to go aerial.

um ok? Olimar doesn't need to hit lol he just needs to shield camp and run away. if you're in the air he'll just try to run away to get pivot grabs or run away and throw pikmin. or shield an attack.

"for everything else, there is Bair."

way to clarify

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'm going to interject and say that Olimars DO use grounded tether. Helps cover blindspots, and is just another tool in his anti-air game.

I played a decent Olimar today offline. It's 40:60 at worst.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I used grounded chain a lot against Chis. I'm not gonna play you again Chis, I suck today. I wanna play ROY

 

[Ryan-K]

but it's not necessary especially if he could get punished for it I don't see why he would do it especially since he could just block/run away/utilt/usmash or w/e

it's a part of his game but its not necessary

 

[Jim Morrison]

You can't run from Sonic.

 

[Boxob.]

You can't run from Sonic.

Yes you can, if you're olimar, running and push him back with your ultra campyness isn't hard by any means.

 

[Ryan-K]

also shielding

oh wait i forgot sonic has such a stellar grab range compared to olimar

 

[Kinzer]

No really, he may know a lot of Smash, but he still thinks Sonic is a piss-a** sucky character, but he's only half right.

If AT didn't make a character, then Sonic would be sharing the spot for bottom of the tier list.

Aerial Spin Charge must be the easiest AT Sonic has currently known, yet still works wonders. It has amazing priority when it wants, and is the starting point of that legendary 40% combo no Sonic out there can consistently pull off.

Then there is Spinshot which gives Sonic a great aerial boost at a low angle and quite far forward. Get's over some projectiles, Pikmin throw/FSmash are no exceptions.

Stutterstep, which may be a universal trick, benefits Sonic and a select few characters more, gives more range on his FSmash. Not useful in this matchup, but it's still there.

You know what, forget the stuttersteps, because mentioning the ATs Sonic would be using against Olimar is enough, mentioning all of them would take me an eternity.

ATs do make some characters, how well do you think Snake would be able to get around if he didn't have the DACUS? Get a better attitude or I'll just stop replying to you, because quite frankly I don't like it too much when people deny a lot of things. This is why we make fun of the SBR for their stupid claims about Sonic.

Now if Olimar doesn't get hits in, how is he going to get Sonic into the killing %ages? I know Brawl rewards defensive play, but you still have to make risks to get somewhere. He'll have to use something other than keeping a shield up and running away, because any good players are going to pick up on that and punish it. Let me remind you just how much Sonic can get around, you either get hit or hit Sonic, there is no trying to retreat with him.

Olimar doesn't have projectiles that cover the whole stage like Aura Spheres or Charged shots, it IS possible we can just make you come to us and keep running. Pikmin go only so far away.

Saying Bair could cover everything else was a joke, get a sense of humor.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sonics grab game is one of the best non-tether grab games...

 

[Kinzer]

G2, he is right, Sonic's grab RANGE is horrendous, it's the grab games after the successful grab that are phenominal.

 

[Jim Morrison]

yea, the range is terrible. but the grab game is not.

 

[Ryan-K]

No really, he may know a lot of Smash, but he still thinks Sonic is a piss-a** sucky character, but he's only half right.

If AT didn't make a character, then Sonic would be sharing the spot for bottom of the tier list.

um BUT THEY DON'T LOL. explain why gaw is so good when all he does is bair and kill with fsmash/dsmash. explain marth. explain metaknight. explain falco. explain ddd. all those characters are simple as **** and are amazingly good. oh wait, you can't, just like how i pointed that out before you couldn't say anything back either.

Aerial Spin Charge must be the easiest AT Sonic has currently known, yet still works wonders. It has amazing priority when it wants, and is the starting point of that legendary 40% combo no Sonic out tehre can consistently pull off.

Then there is Spinshot which gives Sonic a great aerial boost at a low angle and quite far forward. Get's over some projectiles, Pikmin throw/FSmash are no exceptions.

Stutterstep, which may be a universal trick, benefits Sonic and a select few characters more, gives more range on his FSmash. Not useful in this matchup, but it's still there.

You know what, forget the stuttersteps, because mentioning the ATs Sonic would be using against Olimar is enough, mentioning all of them would take me an eternity.

ATs do make some characters, how well do you think Snake would be able to get around if he didn't have the DACUS? Get a better attitude or I'll just stop replying to you, because quite frankly I don't like it too much when people deny a lot of things. This is why we make fun of the SBR for their stupid claims about Sonic.

ok wow he can slide! so can jigglypuff and a bunch of other characters. i would take you seriously if you took your head out of your ***. techniques don't make characters lol. movesets and other attributes such as size, range, weight, vulnerabilities to universal cgs etc to.

Now if Olimar doesn't get hits in, how is he going to get Sonic into the killing %ages? I know Brawl rewards defensive play, but you still have to make risks to get somewhere. He'll have to use something other than keeping a shield up and running away, because any good players are going to pick up on that and punish it. Let me remind you just how much Sonic can get around, you either get hit or hit Sonic, there is no trying to retreat with him.

olimar can throw pikmin. he has a projectile. he can also use pivot grabs which cover a huge area for very little risk and add on percent. throwing pikmin forces sonic to a) approach which is unsafe unless olimar is lagging for some dumb reason, b) attack to get pikmin off/away or c) maneuver around pikmin which either puts him in the air or furhter from olimar

you can retreat fomr sonic, its called rolling/blocking/beating out any options he can do out of a dash with a given move, in this case olimars grab

Olimar doesn't have projectiles that cover the whole stage like Aura Spheres or Charegd shots, it IS possible we can just make you come to us and keep running. Pikmin go only so far away.

then he goes a little closer while you have absolutely nothing to do from such a distance besides run

Saying Bair could cover everything else was a joke, get a sense of humor.

oh ok sorry for assuming you were intelligent enough to take a debate seriously, i'll keep that in mind the next time you spout more bs

also sonic isn't that great lol. he has better priority and killing than hes given credit for but mixups that dont have to do with grabs mean nothing in this game and he can't compete with top tiers. get your blind fanboyism out of this thread or gtfo

 

[DanGR]

1) i didnt say he was broken
2) alot of the ppl who have a tendency to play ur character ***** about him like he sucks. facts *****
3) what weaknesses besides that hes light and has an *** recovery? lol
4) this is brawl everyone is easy to use lol

I'll name his weaknesses off the top of my head.

recovery
poor edgeguarding
no grab armor
slow grab (pre-lag wise)
bad priority
lack of angled attacks
weight
floatyness
bad roll
bad gettup attack
bad tilts
no jab setups
no attacks to protect him as he lands
no interrupting attacks (such as Weegee's, Peach's, or MK's nair, or a fast jab)
no broken attacks

edit: wow, this topic is moving too fast.

 

[Browny]

i think olis purple usmash counts as a broken attack lol...

 

[Ryan-K]

I'll name his weaknesses off the top of my head.

recovery
poor edgeguarding
no grab armor
slow grab (pre-lag wise)
bad priority
lack of angled attacks
weight
floatyness
bad roll
bad gettup attack
bad tilts
no jab setups
no attacks to protect him as he lands
no interrupting attacks (such as Weegee's, Peach's, or MK's nair, or a fast jab)
no broken attacks

ill give you recovery and edgeguarding since he cant jump out and his weight isnt that great

his grab is **** fast for a tether and is super safe

his priority isn't bad, his utilt and nair suck anything thats not disjointed right in

ive seen grab armor before, ive taken percent and grabbed but w/e shrug

floatyness? everyone is floaty in this game.

getup attack? really? lol everyones get up sucks because they lag and are unsafe on block. ftilt is his only bad tilt. jab set ups? marth doesnt have any either. not having something positive isnt negative. thats like saying not having a chaingrab is mks weakness

nair protects him as he lands as long as your not facing something disjointed. you don't need angled attacks either.

LMFAO at no ranged attacks are you serious, his whole ****ing moveset is throwing plants. his fair and nair come out pretty fast too and he can whistle to protect himself from landing

his usmash and his grab are pretty **** broken lol

here i can name mk weakness

light
his glide attack clashes with aerials instead of beating them out
he doesnt have angled attacks either
his usmash sucks
no jab set ups
bad get up attack
no projectiles
floaty
no chaingrab
his roll isn't as good as falcos
his ledge get up attack is bad
his techroll sucks
no fast arcing antiair from the ground like marth utilt
his fthrow doesn't throw forward
grab attack is slow

see? i can name off random attributes amazing characters dont have that others do, that doesn't make them weaknesses

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont feel like getting into this cus i have next to no exp here, buuuuuutttt....

basically what it seems like is that on the majority, ryan is right, so im gonna be partially appealing to authority on this one...

ryan could be less of a **** with his insults, and i do think that he thinks sonic is worse than he actually is. but that doesnt negate the point that oli has the ability to camp sonic into oblvion, and ASC is really the only reliable way around this...

and if we only have this one method, than it will get predicted and punished.

also, kinzer, stop judging people. you trying to dicredit him because he mains falco, in melee, is just as bad as the SBR not listening to you because you play sonic. as a matter of fact, its WORSE because you know how that feels, yet you still do it to other people...


im done, ill be back when we get to a character I know something about

p.s. about sonics matchups with top tiers..
he goes legit 50-50 with D3 and i beat the majority of snakes I play, even though I still feel the match is 65-35 snake.

 

[DanGR]

this post

lol, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Ryan-K]

ryan could be less of a **** with his insults, and i do think that he thinks sonic is worse than he actually is. but that doesnt negate the point that oli has the ability to camp sonic into oblvion, and ASC is really the only reliable way around this...

i just think kinzer overrates him to hell, i think hes like the bottom of mid which is 2 tiers up from the very bottom so hes better than a good amount of characters

dangr: your overwhelming evidence supported with your facts has overwhelmed me, i give up

 

[da K.I.D.]

hmm...
that where i put him too.
i used to think ryan was a ****, now i just think hes lulzy

 

[Browny]

.................

floatyness? everyone is floaty in this game.
What the hell sort of excuse is that. Get jiggs and fox to jump off stage and see who dies first. yes everyone is more floaty than in melee, but oli is one of the floatiest in the game, and that doesnt work well against someone whos great at punishing from below with sonics upair. its quick and lon-lasting enough to spam it and still hit through airdodges since oli cant out-manouver sonic in the air, or simply FF AD right through him

getup attack? really? lol everyones get up sucks because they lag and are unsafe on block.
... take a look at ikes get up attack and compare it to olimar. you seem to be under the impression that since oli can simply shieldgrab most get up attacks, therefore they suck. well this isnt an olimar ditto, and having a bad get up attack, mixed with sonics ground speed means you can get grabbed every time you dont roll if you miss a tech

nair protects him as he lands as long as your not facing something disjointed. you don't need angled attacks either.
Sonics fsmash, usmash, bair and some tilts are all disjointed enough, properly spaced, to beat nair.

LMFAO at no ranged attacks are you serious, his whole ****ing moveset is throwing plants. his fair and nair come out pretty fast too and he can whistle to protect himself from landing
When did dangr say this?


here i can name mk weakness

light
his glide attack clashes with aerials instead of beating them outwhat aerials actually beat the glide attack?
he doesnt have angled attacks eitherHis attack cover 180* arcs around his body...
his usmash sucksits decent enough to punish landing lag against characters who are floaty and cant protect themselves as they land... someone like olimar
no jab set upsMK's jab set-ups are equivalent of his d/ftilt, since they are faster than most jabs anyway
bad get up attackIts actually a lot better than olis, and decent overall
no projectiles
floaty
no chaingrab
his roll isn't as good as falcosIts still up there for one of the best
his ledge get up attack is badits just average
his techroll sucks
no fast arcing antiair from the ground like marth utiltusmash...
his fthrow doesn't throw forward
grab attack is slowbut it does 3% per hit

see? i can name off random attributes amazing characters dont have that others do, that doesn't make them weaknesses

 

[Boxob.]

Ryan's cool.

Gf2TW Has 93 in his code.

 

[Boxob.]

Oh **** so do I.

:D

 

[DanGR]

Ryan, I could care less if you understand or not. I'm not going to waste my time explaining these elementary concepts to you. If you want to understand how Olimar works, then go play him for 9 months like I have and then tell me I'm wrong. Anyone that knows how to play this game knows that having good options off of the ground, setups and followups in a variety of situations, priority, speed (whether aerial or ground), and options OoS are crucial.

Good day.

 

[Ryan-K]

everyone being floaty matters because the difference in fallspeed betwee nfox and jiggs despite being on extreme sides of the spectrum isn't enough to make a huge difference

also concerning sonic, olimar can either whistle, or dair to beat it or if he wants he can just air dodge

ikes get up does suck...like almost every character can run out of shield and grab if they dont have a slowass grab. if youre gonna get punished then dont do an attack? lol and get real how much do you tech in this game?

then olimar can either fair or air dodge while he's landing and roll or attack or w/e when he lands. you can punish it but it's not that bad and it can be hard to punish

also on ranged attacks

lack of angled attacks

on glide attack: nothing beats it but a majority of the time it clashes without being cancelled with random aerials like warios everything except dair lol
his utilt is better than his usmash which can be DIed out of:x
his ftilt and dtilt can do stuff but they're still not jabs. olimar can can use his first jab hit decently and his grab is so good it doesn't matter honestly lol
get up attacks don't matter but ok

the point of the mk list was to show fallacies in his list in how just because olimar doesn't have the same attributes as other characters doesn't mean he is bad with alot of weaknesses, notice how alot of the stuff on the mk list you didn't reply to or was irrelevant, mk is still ridiculous lol but thats not the point, it was a comparison

DanGR: good to know you still can't back up anything you say, oh well. I've used olimar before and he has followups and good priority, his utilt beats like every non sword aerial as does his nair and his moves if they don't beat another move out, they clash so he's still safe, and his moves that matter are really fast and safe and good in general. I don't see how possibly the best grab in the game or a superfast usmash aren't great options out of shield

 

[Kinzer]

also sonic isn't that great lol. he has better priority and killing than hes given credit for but mixups that dont have to do with grabs mean nothing in this game and he can't compete with top tiers. get your blind fanboyism out of this thread or gtfo

I'll start with this.

I know he sucks.

Sonic is all mixups thanks to his playstyle.

Sonic has no bad counters, unless it's 70:30 or worse, why don't YOU GTFO?

Okay with that out of the way.

G&W has Bucket Braking, which helps him survive, that's a great AT considering he is the third lightest character in the game.

MT has Mach FTilt.

Falco has SH Lasers, I thought you would know this since nothing has changed during the transition.

If Snake didn't have DACUS, he would be slow as @#$% when it comes to moving around, I bet he wouldn't be able to follow opponents so great without it, because running to your opponent as Snake after a FTilt works wonders.

Why they're still so good, they just happen to get really lucky that Brawl has it's physics. Brawl rewards defensively play to the point that nobody wants to go on the offensive. There are some exceptions, however. Let's take MK for example, he has no lag on his attacks, a lot of range for his size, his sword clashes with nothing, playing him is hit or be hit. He is built to go on the offensive because everybody else, be it aggresive or passive, has lag in their attacks, which allow MK to get in their uncomfortable spots and do as he pleases.

G&W is the same thing to a lesser extent, having IASA frames up the ***. His moves are incredibly safe, fast, and powerful at the same time.

D3 has a chaingrabs on their entire cast.

Falcos playstyle has changed very little, the only thing that still keeps him top tier is Brawls physics. He is a very campy/defensive character, which let me remind you reap more benefits.

Marth also happens to have quite a bit of range on his attacks, which flow fluently with one another, and are for the most part safe with the exceptions of his smash attacks which he will be using when he has scanned you to the point that he can make himself a brickwall. He won't be spamming them like an idiot anyway saving them for the real kills.

These characters don't need ATs for the most part because they are already great characters on their own, anything else is just a bonus.

Yes I can say how they are good, I just did above.

LOL at Jigglypuff being able to slide, all it can do is just take teh skies and go from there, Jiggly doesn't have a way to get around on the Ground like Snake does.

Pivot grabs are used for retreats in Olimar's case, otherwise he isn't going to be comnig at Sonic like that. Now Pikmin may be a projectile, but they don't cover any range, and I'll keep telling you he doesn't have to approach, all he has to do is play resourceful and come up with a plan for whatever he wants to do from there. Whoop-de-do, Olimar got a couple of pikmin in, they're easy to shake off for Sonic, andI don't care if he can pluck more, that's going to take some time to do, and Sonic can attack you during then.

Now WTH is this?

"you can retreat fomr sonic, its called rolling/blocking/beating out any options he can do out of a dash with a given move, in this case olimars grab"

Take the time to make a proper sentence, or I have no idea what you're saying and I won't bother to reply.

You're getting to the point where you have to rely on insults to get your points, only dumb people can't intelligently keep their arguments credible, and I begin to grow tired of trying to talk with you in this manner, and quite frankly I'm not going to do it since my family has stolen the rest of my patience.

So wather this gets me an infraction or not, I don't care, I'm still 5 points from being banned so...

SCREEEEEEEW YOUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ryan's cool.

Gf2TW Has 93 in his code.

Oh **** so do I.

:D

We rule. Wii codes dont count

 

[Ryan-K]

I'll start with this.

I know he sucks.

Sonic is all mixups thanks to his playstyle.

Sonic has no bad counters, unless it's 70:30 or worse, why don't YOU GTFO?

Okay with that out of the way.

G&W has Bucket Braking, which helps him survive, that's a great AT considering he is the third lightest character in the game.

which is super situational

MT has Mach FTilt.

ok?


Falco has SH Lasers, I thought you would know this since nothing has changed during the transition.

that's one thing. look at how many sonic has. you definately said ATs matter and he only has one simple thing, and its not even advanced lol, the laser has no lag WOW

If Snake didn't have DACUS, he would be slow as @#$% when it comes to moving around, I bet he wouldn't be able to follow opponents so great without it, because running to your opponent as Snake after a FTilt works wonders.

so he can still throw nades, still not necessary

Why they're still so good, they just happen to get really lucky that Brawl has it's physics. Brawl rewards defensively play to the point that nobody wants to go on the offensive. There are some exceptions, however. Let's take MK for example, he has no lag on his attacks, a lot of range for his size, his sword clashes with nothing, playing him is hit or be hit. He is built to go on the offensive because everybody else, be it aggresive or passive, has lag in their attacks, which allow MK to get in their uncomfortable spots and do as he pleases.

but you just said AT's make a character of which he only has one apparently.

G&W is the same thing to a lesser extent, having IASA frames up the ***. His moves are incredibly safe, fast, and powerful at the same time.

D3 has a chaingrabs on their entire cast.

BUT BUT BUT HE HAS NO ATs!!!

Falcos playstyle has changed very little, the only thing that still keeps him top tier is Brawls physics. He is a very campy/defensive character, which let me remind you reap more benefits.

Marth also happens to have quite a bit of range on his attacks, which flow fluently with one another, and are for the most part safe with the exceptions of his smash attacks which he will be using when he has scanned you to the point that he can make himself a brickwall. He won't be spamming them like an idiot anyway saving them for the real kills.

BUT BUT BUT HE HAS NOT ATs!!!!

These characters don't need ATs for the most part because they are already great characters on their own, anything else is just a bonus.

You just said ATs make characters, then you said they don't need them? Make up your mind

Yes I can say how they are good, I just did above.

LOL at Jigglypuff being able to slide, all it can do is just take teh skies and go from there, Jiggly doesn't have a way to get around on the Ground like Snake does.

she has the sliding usmash

Pivot grabs are used for retreats in Olimar's case, otherwise he isn't going to be comnig at Sonic like that. Now Pikmin may be a projectile, but they don't cover any range, and I'll keep telling you he doesn't have to approach, all he has to do is play resourceful and come up with a plan for whatever he wants to do from there. Whoop-de-do, Olimar got a couple of pikmin in, they're easy to shake off for Sonic, andI don't care if he can pluck more, that's going to take some time to do, and Sonic can attack you during then.

if sonic is taking damage and has to do something in a position where olimar can just throw plants at him safely then guess who is winning? so if sonic isn't approaching what's he going to do? he doesn't have any projectiles and olimar definately has far more range than sonic does even if you exclude the side b throw. also the pikmin pull is like instant and he can still jump back and whistle if you havent killed pikmin lol

saying he can come up with a plan and be resourceful is a mighty generic statement that can apply to say oh i dont know...anything lol

Now WTH is this?

"you can retreat fomr sonic, its called rolling/blocking/beating out any options he can do out of a dash with a given move, in this case olimars grab"

Take the time to make a proper sentence, or I have no idea what you're saying and I won't bother to reply.

sorry for misspelling "from" now maybe if you were smart you could see that I meant olimar can retreat, so next time I'll just use words with 2 or more syll-a-bles.

You're getting to the point where you have to rely on insults to get your points, only dumb people can't intelligently keep their arguments credible, and I begin to grow tired of trying to talk with you in this manner, and quite frankly I'm not going to do it since my family has stolen the rest of my patience.

I'm only using insults because you and alot of other people don't seem to get basic points unless I curse you out, you being a prime example. Maybe making sense and not being judgmental/getting basic points without saying something false would make it easier on yourself just so i don't have to curse you out.notice how yourself and many other people only respond when actual evidence when insulted? maybe you should start supporting your claims beforehand if you dont want to be exposed to "dirty words"

 

[Jim Morrison]

You both are wrong. Characters have a solid ranking on the chart with their abilities and basic moves. AT's can just take them to a certain point. But it's true, AT's don't make characters. However there some good AT's which are one of the pillars of a character. ASC in Sonics case. Not all characters are build on AT's, but some are. Sonic is a good example with a ****load of AT's and stupid tricks like SHFFTASDSC.

 

[Kinzer]

God d***it, thank goodness I escaped the house for like a couple minutes before submitting that post, gave me time to think, because I can't do it with all the racket going on at the household.

How is Bucket Braking situational, it either works or it doesn't, and that only happens when the G&W is too slow to pull it off/has a full bucket.

You're right, I probably should've made it more clear there were a few exceptions. I thought I made that easy to see when I was talking about MKs good attributes but apparantly not.

Now you're undergrading Falco's SH lasers, that is clearly telling me your in denial of a lot of things, that should help my point. It allows Falco to pull off a lot mroe lasers than he would normally be if he were just spamming it grounded. It mgiht also get a couple of hits in too seeing as how Falco is "sharpshotting" them.

I don't do enoguh research into other characters to know every detail about them, you want to find ATs for every character, you go do that on your own time, I'm not gonig to waste mine to prove a point that will already be true on it's own anyway because every character will have something behind them that the developers did not originally intend on. Brawl is a great game, I'm sure all the characters have at least one AT that a couple of people have found.

They don't need them, because they are already great on their own. They just make things much harder for everybody else to get around them.

Sonic can be baiting you if he is just letting you come to him, point is Olimar isn't playing his super-campy safe style. Now Whistle will give him super armor, so he's taking damage, doesn't mean Olimar is a god. now about Pluck being instant, it still takes some commitment to press the B button where he could rather be using his other moves, which Sonic with his speed, can get in there, and DO SOMETHING.

"you can retreat fomr sonic, its called rolling/blocking/beating out any options he can do out of a dash with a given move, in this case olimars grab"

"sorry for misspelling "from" now maybe if you were smart you could see that I meant olimar can retreat, so next time I'll just use words with 2 or more syll-a-bles."

No, you just further proved my point that you don't want to take the time to form a proper sentence, and screw you, I am as smart as the average person at the least. but let me say it in a term you would want me to say it "durr... ohkay! me shawrey!"

No, actually, now that I better udnerstand your half-a**** setence, rolls go only go one way and are therefore readable. Now who says Sonic is going to use a dash-attack to approach Olimar, that idea is stupid and suicidal and has nothing to do with whatever.

Yeah, I'm just going to ignore you, not ignore you as in put you on my ignore list (I'm not a jerk) But just disregard whatever you post. I am smart enough to understand your points without having to use cheap tactics.

I can't believe I'm resorting to the same things you are, but try again when you don't have a ***** up your ***.

By the way, go ahead and argue this points now, because nobody (at least not I) will read them, I'm going out, I can't think with my stupid nephews and s*** talking as loud as they please and it's getting me MORE on my nerves.

 

[Chis]

Can someone post messages without being total pricks?


Kthanks.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I always do that.

 

[Chis]

lol

I wasn't talking about you.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

I have a hard time against this little guy.
Mainly because it's harder for me to utilize Sonic's speed.
As everyone has said ASC works.

I like surprising Oli's with spinshot because it's so **** fast.
And then you get a free bair.
But that's only if it's there first time seeing it.
Since the bair comes when you're at that 135% angle behind him. He can't really do much but shield.
The Oli I play usually tries to pivot grab or down smash me after if he shields bair.
But I don't use it that much, in fear of him Usmashing me out of spinshot.

Sure Olimar has a bad recovery, but he's not as easy to gimp when in the hands of a competent player.
I mean seriously. He's so **** floaty. When you knock him off, if the Oli DI's right he doesn't always need to tether.
Also the fact that his UpB gives him a little hop makes it worse.
Spring doesn't do much to Oli at all IMO
I'm hardly able to get the little guy below the stage often enough for it to work.

I don't get to fight Oli too often, but I still think it's 70:30 Oli
Seriously the little guy's annoying >_<

 

[Tenki]

Random other notes:
- So there's this really funny trick that Olimar can do that can let him have all white/purple pikmin.

>___>

I lol'd the first time I saw it, because I was busy trying to bait a movement by shorthopping and doing random false spindashes, before I realized what had happened.

then I almost cried on the inside because he had 3 purples in a row.

- Also, ASC is nice and all, but Olimar's up-B or retreating aerial can take care of that.

it depends on what the sonic is conditioned to look out for, cause in most of my matches i take mental notes on the most dangerous moves, so as to counter them and thus my opponent as often as possible.

thats why I dont roll or spotdodge Marth or snake, because I am conditioned to avoid dancing blades and f-tilts

so if the sonic is conditioned to avoid f-smash he will walk into a lot of grabs but if he is conditioned to avoid grabs, in addititon to beign better off, he will be hit with more smashes and side bs, but seeing as we can shrug those off pretty well, it turns out to be the best option.

I like this post.

I was conditioned to avoid grabs vs my friend (as part of an experimental spacing) and definitely got hit more by more of... everything else ... lol.

Fino, you seem to underestimate how bad Olimar's recover is. Even if he uses the whistle he will still be falling, and may be out of range for the tether. Plus it's length Pikmin dependent. You could drop a spring in his path of DI towards the stage as well. Basically his recovery is bad.

Chis, have you ever seen Olimar recover near-horizontal to the ledge?

Olimar's not restricted to being directly under the ledge when tethering. He can tether horizontally (and I think, slightly above horizontal?) and pull himself in without ever going directly below the ledge. It's significantly harder to hit Olimar out of it if you're expecting a below-ledge tether. At the same time, it carries the risk of Olimar being edgehogged if you ARE expecting it (and he doesn't notice/commits his movement to doing it), though giving Olimar time to aerial/etc if he reacts to your edgehog.

Either way, it kind of gives Olimar a 'mixup' of sorts when recovering.

 

[Tenki]

I have a hard time against this little guy.
Mainly because it's harder for me to utilize Sonic's speed.
As everyone has said ASC works.

I like surprising Oli's with spinshot because it's so **** fast.
And then you get a free bair.
But that's only if it's there first time seeing it.
Since the bair comes when you're at that 135% angle behind him. He can't really do much but shield.

Or he can just up-B either while you're doing spinshot (in front of him) or before you can pull your B-air, or even out of shield.

It has transcendent priority, so nothing aside from hitting Olimar himself will beat it.