Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Jim Morrison]

Honesly I think sonic can go even with olimar, i have played a good amount of sonics on this board and will tell you I won, The only reason i win is because spin dash. Every sonic i play abuses this move, i have the timing of that move so much doing it is giving me free damamge. Now the sonics that don't lose to me happen to not even main sonic on the sole fact that the don't try to spin dash over 9000 time and use every "at" you guys have. EXAMPLES(SSC ABD DVD LMNOP VHS) or what ever you call your moves now..... moving on..... Bair, Fsmash and spring should be your kill moves. Dthrow is a pretty good scare moves. Also a really good thing to do it on the olimars last stock use your spring when they are coming off there invincabilty frames,(cause olimar has to pluck his pikmin) so they fly up and you punish occordingly. (dont over use this.)


tl;dr STOP USING SPIN DASH

i will add more later...maybe

You speak truth. Spindash is a very foolish move and a stupid approach. ASC is a good move however. SDSC is even more fun :D

 

[Chis]

Went Even?

60:40 Chis IMO.

And yes it was Puffball.

 

[Tenki]

@Puddin
- Throw two pikmin and you're grabbed.

10projectiles.

Oh God Sonic and Olimar are not an even matchup.

Prepare to get torched.

Also the Wario thing is done, check it out and tell me what I can do to improve it.

I also haven't seen Tenki in like forever, schoolwork must be swamping him.

more like school's over so i'm playing more and posting less :<

lol

so a few weeks ago, I was playing with my friend, and I kept thinking about this one pretty good Olimar I was playing against online, who could follow up grabs pretty well.

I knew my friend didn't really know Olimar too well, but I played to avoid putting myself in a grabbable or up-B'able position.

Then I realized I really didn't know Olimar's lag time, and I started freaking out because I pretty much only landed hits when he used a move (smash, aerial, etc) too many times, or if he dodged.

then I lost.

so yeah. 9__9; it kind of sucks. Olimar can be really evil if your opponent has a read on you.

anyway, some matchup notes:

- Olimar can smash at the same time he pulls a pikmin out. I'm not sure if he can grab too, but he's definitely NOT punishable while he's pulling out pikmin.
- Olimar's grab hugs the floor. (sh moar)
- Olimar's non-pikmin attacks >>>> Sonic's moves (good defense vs Sonic's approaches)
- N-air/B-air/D-air = Single hit Pikmin attacks
- Yellow and purple pikmin tend to outprioritize Sonic's moves.

 

[Jim Morrison]

- Olimar's non-pikmin attacks >>>> Sonic's moves (good defense vs Sonic's approaches)

I TOLD YOU. N-airing Olimar is good olimar!

 

[Puddin]

Obviously Sonic's speed makes it hard for Pikmin throw to be affective, and don't think Sonic is the only super special character that can kill Pikmin with one move, in this match Pikmin will obviously become useless toys to simply throw for the possible support and to distract Sonic for as long as they can otherwise they are going to be kept with Olimar for Grabs and Smashes.

Spindash is useless, if you start to blindly rush at us with the most predictable move in the game we are going to grab it.

I've tested most of Sonics air moves against Olimar's N air and it's basically even.

Sonics Nair > Olimar's Nair
Sonics Bair < Olimar's Nair
Sonicas Fair > Olimar's Nair.

Forgive anything incorrect I might have said about this match up, the Oli boards know I haven't posted in ages and I haven't played in months (2) so my Olimar knowledge has clearly dwindled.

 

[Camalange]

A GOOD Sonic DOESN'T approach with Spindashes.

 

[Tenki]

Spindash is useless, if you start to blindly rush at us with the most predictable move in the game we are going to grab it.

spindash jump. grab it.



speaking of that,

someone mentioned that SDJ helps quite a bit in this matchup since it increases Sonic's max air speed.

 

[Chis]

I TOLD YOU. N-airing Olimar is good olimar!

Obviously Sonic's speed makes it hard for Pikmin throw to be affective, and don't think Sonic is the only super special character that can kill Pikmin with one move,

It's still an advantage.

in this match Pikmin will obviously become useless toys to simply throw for the possible support and to distract Sonic for as long as they can otherwise they are going to be kept with Olimar for Grabs and Smashes.

Or Sonic could just ignore them?

Spindash is useless, if you start to blindly rush at us with the most predictable move in the game we are going to grab it.

Stay outside the grab range and punish?

Have you played any good Sonics by the way?

 

[Puddin]

Stay outside the grab range and punish?

Have you played any good Sonics by the way?

Predict said faux approach and take two steps into the grab range?

Bait Punish
Predict Punish

It's the key to this match up for both.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i refuse to believe that sonic back air, the most priority of all his airials will lose to an attack that his n air beats...

can i get some numbers on full charge spincharge vs. oli forward smash?

 

[Chis]

Predict said faux approach and take two steps into the grab range?

Players fault?

Bait Punish
Predict Punish


It's the key to this match up for both.

Yes?

 

[Dyyne]

How does sonic deal with pivot grab? I feel like he may be a character that actually can punish it, but I don't know for sure.

 

[da K.I.D.]

SH FF nair
Sh FF back air.
maybe even SH down air if youre bold.
ASC
side b hop possibly

 

[KillerSOS]

Behaviour:
Will not approach because their approaching isn't half as good as their defence. From a distance he will throw Pikmin. However this is no problem, for we can run. Any ballform attack will get pacman off you. Dash attack, N-air, side-B. Blue is usually grab, but sometimes they make you believe that and just smash you. He has incredible range on the air and decent on the ground. Has a meteor smash, but U-air outranges is.

Commonly Used Moves:
Pikmin pluck. When Olimar dies he is immedeatly gonna pluck Pikmin. KILL THEM. I noticed a N-airing Olimar is a winning Olimar, it's a great move. Most don't use it enough . Probably like Sonics D-tilt. . He also uses his F-air and B-air to keep you back. Can spam smashes. Pikmin throw isn't useful in this matchup. U-air when coming from below. IIRC it outprioritizes Sonics D-air. Olimar rarely uses his Tilts. His grabs are godly. Don't shield too much, dodging is better. His grab takes longer than a usual grab. Blue does amazing knockback. White has strong pummels.

How to Win:
GIMP. Gimp Olimar. B-air him off stage and drop Springs/edgehog. Good Olimars don't really get gimped, but still try it. Stutterstepped F-smash could be an hero for you. Throws are always good. I heard Olimar has some "forbidden angle" at about 45 degrees, but I am poorly informed about this. By the sounds of 45 degrees, SH F-air would work.

Recommended Stages:
RAINBOW CRUISE. Also Brinstar and friends. Frigate Orpheon would work too. Choose stages with as little ledges as possible and lots of jumping.

Matchup Summary:
Olimar is a great character, but I can't see how it is in his favour. Sonic has the spring. The safest and funnest gimper ever. 50:50 or 55:45 Sonic.

This is my opinion but I'm not very expierenced with Olimar. If an expierenced Olimar comes along and disproves me, just ignore my foolish opinion. TRUFAX

Just one note. Just because it is a teather throw it is NOT slower than a regular grab. Thats why its godly =)

 

[da K.I.D.]

yea, and im pretty sure his pivot grab works the same way as yoshi's, in that, for some odd reason the pivot grab animation moves faster than the basic grab animations. Which means it comes out faster, and ends sooner, which makes it highly spamable

 

[DanGR]

The only way you'll punish pivotgrabbing is to force Olimar to the edge of the stage where he can't do it anymore.

 

[knightzy]

I've found that most sonics i have played fall for the SH f-b f-air,which I mean when the olimar throws,the sonic comes to punish but gets a red pikmin to the face,I usally combo this with a grab,A stuipid olimar won't fall for a sonic b-air,they should dodge or wac(if there in the air,or roll and grab if on the ground) it,but if they get hit(miss time,just forget about it,etc.)it can be deadly.
The thing i hate most about sonic is the spring,i just hate it and it stuffs me up.
Olimar will not approach,you should know that,so you need to find a sutible approach that won't get you grabbed,smashed or pikmin to the face.Stay unpridictable,if you dont,boom! i hate it when people use the same moves(spin dash reference).
I do not think olimar has a huge advantage,so i think a 60-40 is a good idea?

This is just what i have found,sorry if it did'nt help.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Wow, only one note on me :D?

I don't agree 60:40. 50:50 here unless proven otherwise with hard facts that prove a actual disadvantage that affects the matchup.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you are being wayy too opinionated here.

it seems that nobody in either board has too much experience here. so dont be that way we are trying to avoid absolutes here.

p.s. dont spot dodge back air, its has no noticable lag so we can attack you our of your invincibility.

about punishing pivot grabs, if you go to approach and you know oli will pivot grab, why can you alter your approach to hit where olimar will be instead of where he is at the time?

it seems that that would be really effective.

also, forcing them to pivot grab to the end is also very effective since sonic can play the avoidance game rediculously well

 

[Jim Morrison]

OK, let's assume none of us know anything of the matchup so far. It is 50:50. We have to weigh out the advantages and disadvantages over the other, come up with winning tactics and some numbers. I'll start out calling 50:50 untill someone shows me why it should be in favour of X character.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats much less aggressive and is something every one can agree with. thanks for the clarification

 

[Browny]

Wow, only one note on me :D?

I don't agree 60:40. 50:50 here unless proven otherwise with hard facts that prove a actual disadvantage that affects the matchup.

well gee the exact same thing can be said about your claim of 50:50?

40:60 imo. heavily stage dependant

 

[Jim Morrison]

When there's a matchup between 2 characters I am not or very little expierenced in, I always keep it 50:50 untill facts that prove disadvantages come up. Then I will make a new number. But in reality, matchup isn't about the number. Marth boards don't have write-ups, just numbers and links to a thread :\

 

[da K.I.D.]

marth boards arent as great as everyone thinks,

they all just take turns pole jocking EL

 

[aeghrur]

Marth boards are stupid.
The best threads they've had were their guides and their Marth is manly thread.

 

[Kinzer]

Sonics Nair > Olimar's Nair
Sonics Bair < Olimar's Nair
Sonicas Fair > Olimar's Nair.

It's just a tad shame though, no Sonic in their right mind will use Nair for anything other than pushing you away from us, Fair will trade hits at worst, and Bair is a really disjointed move.

Marth boards are stupid.
The best threads they've had were their guides and their Marth is manly thread.

But Martha is GAY! :O

Really though, the more I'm looking at it, the more I see it neutral. Just 'cause we don't have a projectile doesn't mean we have to approach, Olimar doesn't exactly have anything that really classifies as a projectile, since Pikmin have a set path (mini-projectile maybe? I'm just puttingo n an anti-flame shield, don't mind me), and besides that Sonic has some crazy-a** speed to help him avoid getting pinned down by Pikmin assuming Olimar is approaching.

Now when it comes to approaches, ASC works like magic here, just go for Olimar's blindspots, which would be like at a 30 degree angle and a 65 degree angle... just anywhere he can't grab/Up-B/USmash your approaches is a nice place to attack Olimar from.

Sonic works alright on most stages, and with Olimar has MOAR places to take him than the other way around. DJ was right when he said it can be stage dependent, I think Sonic may even have the advantage of Frigate Orpheon.

Stay unpredictable no doubt, if the Olimar catches on to you, it will just at best set you back to square 1 with more damage.

Space your attacks, use K.O. moves as Olimar is rather light, and gimp if you can.

Anything else?

 

[da K.I.D.]

its just a game of patience, which i think many sonics are bad at.

although, it is very easy to get grabbed by oli, i think up throw to up smash to up air, is a true combo at 0%.

avoid norfair,

when it comes to gimping oli, usually its just best to stay on the ledge and take the up b hit, and try to ledge tech it.

 

[Kinzer]

Meh, I usually just drop a Spring in the path of the Tether, if it hits Olimar woohoo easy gimp, if it doesn't owell not like I won't be able to kill him later on.

I'm inclined to say that it might even go into Sonic's advantage just because he has more stages to choose from, but would that be wrong to say?

Please let me know.

Also K.I.D., being a patient man helps me compete against character's like MK and G&W, where you have no other choice than to play like that.

 

[Chis]

Counter pick with Rainbow cruise and Frigate?

 

[aeghrur]

I think spring dropping could work really well as a gimp.
One: the tether might lock on to you and your spring invincy frames allows him to miss both the ledge and you.
Two: You hit him with the spring, he goes farther down, D-air ledge grab? xD

 

[Chis]

So...

percentages or do we have still more to talk about?

 

[Kinzer]

Well, it would be nice to know about any other stages other than RC/Friagte if for whatever reason they don't work.

Final D is good.

BF is bad.

We need more people saying what's the ratio, and until somebody tells me off, I'm going to say it's 50:50 at worst, if not in Sonic's advantage (WTF?).

 

[Chis]

Olimar
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Sky World, Delfino Plaza
Ban: Luigi's Mansion, Norfair, Lylat Cruise, Corneria

Ignore Jungle Japes.

And I say 55:45 Sonic for the lulz.

 

[DanGR]

BlackWaltz think it's advantaged Olimar. (60-40 to 70-30) Apparently, fsmash spam>Sonic.

thoughts?

 

[aeghrur]

He's wrong.
Dtilt>sonic. That nub.

 

[DanGR]

Do you think I'm joking?

 

[Browny]

do you think the SBR jokes?

they pretty much own competitive smash, they dont muck around

 

[DanGR]

The general consensus in this thread was that Sonic goes even with Olimar. I'm telling you guys that the best Olimar player in the world thinks Olimar has a sizable advantage over Sonic because of Olimar's fsmash.

If you're not going to take this matchup discussion seriously, then fine. Just tell me so I don't waste my time and I'll gladly leave.

 

[ShadowLink84]

BlackWaltz think it's advantaged Olimar. (60-40 to 70-30) Apparently, fsmash spam>Sonic.

thoughts?

Extremely doubtful since I've met Fsmash spamming Olimars (and they do it intellignetly) but ASC beats it out because of its very, very lovely angle.

It really only works if Sonic blindly rushes Olimar.
While Olimar's fsmash is really good, it does not cover his dead angle which Sonic can exploit.
Considering Sonic can also spinshot, the Fsmash is not the problem as it is more his grabs.
I rarely get hit by Fsmashes.
its the grabs that hurt



Anyway I would say even if not 55:45 Olimar.
For several reasons. sonic's bair and ASC have nice angles to their attack. It allows him to go at Olimar's dead angle which is something not many characters can do.
he also can shake pff pikmin as he approaches Olimar whereas most characters MUST stop and shake off the pikmin unless they want to get more damage. At which point it leaves Olimar an opening.
The spring is also an extremely good move.
both when Olimar has respawned and when he is in the air.
Olima is a light character and moves slowly in the air in comparison to other characters. This give Sonic plenty of time to lay a ground spring to restrict Olimar's path to the ground and allow Sonic to maintain pressure.

You will never punish Olimars pivot grabs. Don't bother, you'll get punished for it.
Pressure Olimar to the edge. Once at the edge he cannot pivot grab safely and so most of the time Olimar will remain a the center of the stage where he can maneuver more easily.

Off stage limar can have a hard time because sonic's Fair can outlast the SA frames of the whistle and his extreme speed is just annoying to deal with after being knocked ff sage. He really doesn't allow Olimar time to breath.

however, Olimar has hardcore camping.
There is VERY little error that can be made around Olimar because he has so much range to his attacks and punishes very harshly.
Hell at 0% you WILL take at least 30% off a single grab. 12% more if you Di improperly or do not spring away.

One more thing, don't spring away from Olimar.
Not unless you KNOW the move will kill you.
Why?
Olimar WILL land camp you and you'll get grabbed again because Olimar is just that gay.
He doesn't need speed he has massive range.

I would say 60:40 if not for the fact that Sonic has a spring which can keep Olimar in the air and deprive him of pikmin.

RC is the best CP as is brinstar.

 

[aeghrur]

I thought Atomsk had the best olimar.
And yes, I was joking about the dtilt thing, lol. Sorry if you weren't.
To be frank, although F-smash might give an advantage, it doesn't beat Sonic alone. As SL stated, ASC would beat it. Also, running->shield grab might give us just enough a boost on some pikmen to get in, or powershield and get it. But, that's more situational. Spinshot can get past it easily and land us a b-air, or a b-air grab. Spindash jump will also work, as in, we come in with spinshot, SDJ over the F-smash and do what we can. =/