Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[SonicX580]

Yeah, it's a MATCHUP DISCUSSION THREAD. If the THREAD needs to be updated on a missing MATCHUP then it will be DISCUSSED.

And what Greenstreet said, lol [/argument]

I'am not trying to start a argument Camalange and Greenstreet I just want to get back on topic.

 

[Greenstreet]

No canon talk here. Right on with the matchup pls, take other stuff to the chat room.

 

[SonicX580]

Umm aside from what post about my experience from Ness is there anything new about Ness?

 

[Greenstreet]

Let's just wait (in the spirit of Tenki) til some Ness's arrive so we can have discussion rather than theorising... And pls dont reply to this saying "ok sure" or whatever...

 

[_clinton]

.....

Erm....

What? Having trouble accepting that a blue narcissistic, self-absorbed, free-spirited adventurous, benevolent hedgehog would lose to a psychic momma's boy who deals with things like this in his game...

www.starmen.net/cult

to save a girl he doesn't even know except by a dream he has of her?

Actually Ness and Sonic have a lot in common with each other...except EB is a parody ^_^

No canon talk here. Right on with the matchup pls, take other stuff to the chat room.

I'm actually just joking around...but if you want to know...PM me I guess and I'll get into it ^_^

 

[SonicX580]

Let's just wait (in the spirit of Tenki) til some Ness's arrive so we can have discussion rather than theorising... And pls dont reply to this saying "ok sure" or whatever...

Do you want me to check the Ness boards and try to see if any Ness's come over?

 

[Gaussis]

(sits back while people argue over thread)

Just a few corrections to misleading posts:

Ness can approach with any aerial except uair because it's tricky to try. Whether it be nair, fair, bair, or dair, each is relatively safe with each of their uses. It's funny that people only think about the disjoints when ironically, 3.5/5 of Ness's aerials are disjointed. These are fair, bair, uair, and dair (pseudo disjoint explain later if anyone wants).

Nair is better than people give it credit for. It's a 4-frame move that lasts the entire animation around Ness's body. This means that anytime you make contact with Ness, you will take damage. Sonic doesn't have many outreaching hitboxes to the best of my knowledge, so nair is something that will be hard to deal with.

(waits for response)

EDIT: Ness boards are empty for some reason.

 

[Greenstreet]

Our B-air is disjointed but thats about it.
(Also thank's for coming over)...

As for nair approaches, I 've beaten out Ness's using our U-smash (it has a few invincibility frames apparently, much to reason I prefer to use it)..

My main question though mate is your projectile use...its a big thing with Ness. When and where do you use it the most?

 

[Chis]

Our B-air is disjointed but thats about it.
(Also thank's for coming over)...

Also Uair.

 

[SonicX580]

(sits back while people argue over thread)

Just a few corrections to misleading posts:

Ness can approach with any aerial except uair because it's tricky to try. Whether it be nair, fair, bair, or dair, each is relatively safe with each of their uses. It's funny that people only think about the disjoints when ironically, 3.5/5 of Ness's aerials are disjointed. These are fair, bair, uair, and dair (pseudo disjoint explain later if anyone wants).

Nair is better than people give it credit for. It's a 4-frame move that lasts the entire animation around Ness's body. This means that anytime you make contact with Ness, you will take damage. Sonic doesn't have many outreaching hitboxes to the best of my knowledge, so nair is something that will be hard to deal with.

(waits for response)

EDIT: Ness boards are empty for some reason.

Well I think that fair may have a chance to counter Ness's 4 frame move (I didn't test it so I don't know).

 

[Greenstreet]

Ok mate, I'm gonna have to ask you to not post in here for this matchup, sorry, nothing personal... but statements such using the words "may" "chance" "I didn't test it" and "I don't know" are useless.
Please don't post back saying 'Ok, I wont..' if you have a reply to this post just PM me, it'll make life easier and keep this thread clean.

 

[Tenki]

Ehhh..
"Sonic has no mindgame potential."
I dunno if you were around then, but this should be...interesting..

lol, I set him straight already.

He just played against crappy Sonic players that didn't know how to play safe.

basically, if you turn all these questions into 'statements' about Ness behavior, that's what I expect from Ness mains.
(I took out the quote tags for easy quoting.)

Tenki

PK fire is so easy to avoid `.`;

Did he use PK thunder tailwhips to counter aerial approaches? Did he use PKT1 (projectile pk thunder) tailwhip > PKT2 combos? Did he uses Yoyos to stop your approaches? F-airs to take advantage of Ness's aerial priority, N-air's speed and priority to stop your attacks? Was he good about DI and floating to the stage as much as possible without having to waste double jumps or having to use PK thunder to recover?

In the same way I don't want people basing their matchup contributions off of crappy Sonic players, I don't want people bringing up crappy ______ players either.​

feel free to add or correct anything from that list.

also, wtf@all the crap in the last few pages

Also:
In case you, for some reason, didnt know this:
DI up+towards Ness if he B-throws to avoid death.

 

[_clinton]

My main question though mate is your projectile use...its a big thing with Ness. When and where do you use it the most?

Well for me...

PK Flash is for somewhat of an anti-air trick uncharged that happens to break through everything if it hits as well mind games when ledge guarding...overall though it's uses are limited...still...it reaches the killing power point pretty fast so be careful when dealing with it...

PK Fire is mainly used for defense by me (normally + all of the advanced techs it has in the air) and offense if I chose to do something like PK Jump

PK Thunder is my annoyer that is used to lure someone over or smack them if they are out of reach of certain other moves from me (Ness' air attacks chain well...so of course you'll have to deal with this when you get out of range from him) I mostly love it for the mind games though (they are quite fun...you know playing with a move that can kill well at 30%)

Overall I see PK Thunder has having limited use with Sonic though...because of his speed...unless he is in the air...which is where Ness is going to try and put him...

Some of the fun stages I have are

Luigi's Mansion...PK Fire's overall use goes up a lot there because of those pillars...plus Dtilt restores Ness' moves fast on them in case he has stale moves...he can change it fast to...
Samus' SSBB Lava stage...getting gimped is harder and Ness' air game is much more enjoyable...
Pirate Ship...again on the getting gimped...but this has water as well...and Ness' Dair spike happens to be the most powerful Dair in the game at 0% it is like his Fthrow ok...only down...
Overall though some Ness users like water...I'm sort of so-so...
Some Ness users say they dislike stages with a bunch of platforms...I'm not one of them but still

BTW in case you are looking for some stats on Ness' recovery...
Proper use of his 2nd jump from 9 platforms up (that is around the same height as the fall from ground level in FD or so) has the same range as Mario's full horizontal recovery using his techs...still even at low level he ties with Mario's full horizontal range

When I say techs I mean throwing in a Fair with his 2nd jump (Harder then hell to break and ups his horizontal range somewhat) and using PSI magnet to fall right (It slows him down and add to the range somewhat)

For Vertical range it is a bit off...however 3 blocks up isn't so bad...

The thing that sucks about Ness' recovery isn't his 2nd jump...it is PK thunder...and while it still has it's good uses (killing, can't stop at the start, 0 landing lag, the fact that his free fall is the same as his fall speed, ect.) it does have a lot of disadvantages...still at least it is better then some other recovery moves I can think of ^_^

Still...as long as Ness has his 2nd jump...for the most part he shouldn't have much trouble making it back...and because SSBB was so nice to him...he can air dodge during it as well as Fair during it...

Oh and 4/5 of Ness' air attacks have almost 0 landing lag (Nair has the most...and even then it isn't much) and his Dair can cancel as well...plus the fact that Ness happens to be overall at his best in the air because of his 2nd jump and PKT mindgames pretty much says don't fight him there if you can...

 

[Gaussis]

Overall I see PK Thunder has having limited use with Sonic though...because of his speed...unless he is in the air...which is where Ness is going to try and put him...

Really? I find it working well for me. On the ground, it's something to practice, but you have to feel the right time. If you are high in the air, PKT makes a good cover when coming down.


For projectile use, Ness probably won't be using PK Fire unless he's spacing with PK Fire ATs. PK Flash is a mindgame tool. PKT is a mix of a mindgame and to force an approach. It doesn't work too well as that, so I reserve it for mindgame use.

I don't think Ness should approach Sonic at all. Somehow I see something completely wrong with that (must be the fact that every time I imagine Ness chasing Sonic and all Sonic says is "You're too slow").

The only moves Ness should even attempt on the ground are ftilt and utilt. Anything else is risking it, even the yo-yos. Aerials should be a mix of nair and fair. These two should be used in conjunction and to avoid using his kill moves bair and uair. I don't know how dair affects the matchup.

Personally, I believe it's even, but I'm not 100% on that. I'll play anyone if interested, not now though.

 

[_clinton]

I don't think Ness should approach Sonic at all. Somehow I see something completely wrong with that (must be the fact that every time I imagine Ness chasing Sonic and all Sonic says is "You're too slow").
The only moves Ness should even attempt on the ground are ftilt and utilt. Anything else is risking it, even the yo-yos.

Well at least we agree on the approach issue...
Meh...Ness' jab isn't much risk...IMO...as well as his dash somewhat...but really...Sonic does have a + there somewhat...not to much though

 

[Gaussis]

OK. I have my Wii ready now. Any challenges anyone. I feel that I need to feel the matchup a little further, even if it's just wi-fi.

 

[Tenki]

OK. I have my Wii ready now. Any challenges anyone. I feel that I need to feel the matchup a little further, even if it's just wi-fi.

I'll play, just because I'm bored and I haven't played in a week.
edit:
go to the SWF chatroom. I like being able to chat between games.
http://www.smashboards.com/chat.php

 

[Napilopez]

Go Tenki, Go Tenki GO!

 

[Browny]

dont forget to grab... lol

 

[Napilopez]

Jesus its been two hours, aren't you guys done yet? -_-

=P jk

 

[Pheonix]

Ness users can either be really good, or really bad imo

His 0% dair spike probably wont give us much trouble because of Sonics great recovery, it's not something you'd want to take lightly.

PK Fire is probably one of Ness's best combo starters (2nd only to Fair) so you definately do not want to get caught in a PK Fire. The follow-ups consist of Fsmash, Bair, Fair, a grab, and even another PK Fire if positioned right.

Most Ness players i've faced love to stay in the air and love to use PK Thunder. When they use PK Thunder it's usually a mindgame to make it look like you can get in a free hit on them, but they end up just turning it into PKT2 which hurts ALOT.

Handling with Ness offstage is probably the most one-sided fight i can think of. His recovery is easily gimpable but hes not totally defenseless, he'll most likely do a quick aerial such as nair or fair.

Also, dont get grabbed, Ness's Bthrow kills at early percents.

imo the match-up is 50-50, maybe 45-55 Ness

 

[Browny]

so like... how do you guys rate Sonics CG as affecting this. I dont think it should be discounted because SGB minimises the damage it does, it still chains across the entire stage and even if you only manage 1 pummel per grab thats still in the order of 20-30 damage, + 12 from a uthrow across places like FD.

 

[Tenki]

it's too bad :l

east coast - west coast ==> red lag. we'd have something going, then we'd start missing each other for like 40 seconds lol. Oh, and every spinshot = failed airdodge into an attack lol.

so since it wasn't very reflective of the matchup with missed recoveries, missed grabs and all, i'll just do a quick overview of highlights.

so we just played for kicks. Nothing really new to add from my side, since it's kinda like the other Ness players I've played. Except he jumps alot, and I suck at chasing jumpers. sh F-air > dj F-air > D-air, alot.

`.`; he legitimately got me off guard with some PKT1>PKT2 combos/feints a few times. Cool stuff. I felt really guilty for throwing him off the stage or pummel releasing in that lag so I stopped doing it towards our last matches.

body-throwing into PKT1 using spring is fun. I didn't get to do it right in the lag, but if you're under Ness and he tries to loop the PKT1, you can spring into it lol. Another time, I fastfell in front of his under-stage PKT2 and got star KO'd but it gimped him at the same time. And one time, I tried to send him below smashville and he landed a PKT2 and I teched the corner of the stage. It was pretty cool.

spacing with retreating B-airs worked pretty well though. It's hard to do in lag unless you're predicting edge movements, but yeah, it helps counter f-airs and such.

pummel release -> D-tilt is cool.

oh and djbrowny, it's like dedede's CG - you use it to take Ness to the edge lol. If you manage to get a pummel release by the edge, it starts to turn bad for Ness :/

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

ok so which one of the mother boys (ness is better STFu.) does sonic play even with?

 

[Tenki]

both ...?

 

[Napilopez]

Umm yea Ness seems about even. Yep yep. Don't get grabbed at high percentages. Watch out for weaved aerials.

Stages? Lylat cruise sounds good in terms of gimpyness. I would say delfino for this reason too... but the water helps out ness. Don't pick pirate ship, I'd prolly ban that s tage against ness. FD seems neutral/sonics advantage. Battlefield seems neutral/ness's advantage.

Advice to gimp ness: If ness is forced to used PKT, perhaps it would be smart to quickly charge a downB, go into an SDJ and try to hit the thunderbolt itself? I say this because you have huge airspeed from SDJ and have much better aerial control in the forward direction. Like, you can instantly drop down and do whatever you want.

I kinda wanna get past Ness and do ROB already... very fun top tier matchup XD.

Still cant believe marth was determined to be so bad... I think most of us would agree G&W is significantly harder than Marth... But oh well =P

Man, we have alot of good discussions coming up... right after ROB is snake, which I will vouch till forever is extremely even, and I feel me and KID might go back and borth on that one haha.

And then we have Peach, a matchup I enjoy alot, and then Zelda, another fun matchup... And then the almighty MK... Fun Fun

 

[PKNintendo]

so like... how do you guys rate Sonics CG as affecting this. I dont think it should be discounted because SGB minimises the damage it does, it still chains across the entire stage and even if you only manage 1 pummel per grab thats still in the order of 20-30 damage, + 12 from a uthrow across places like FD.

It's not 20-30%. It's called a super grab break, limiting the damage to neglible amounts. We did this with the Marth's, and we'll do it with you. The SGB is Fasssst.

My god you are obsessive.

On FD, I can minimize the damage with, DI and Super Grab Breaks to take 8 damage ish and the rest from the throw. 20% minimum.

Who's to say I won't ban FD?

 

[Tenki]

It's not 20-30%. It's called a super grab break, limiting the damage to neglible amounts. We did this with the Marth's, and we'll do it with you. The SGB is Fasssst.

My god you are obsessive.

On FD, I can minimize the damage with, DI and Super Grab Breaks to take 8 damage ish and the rest from the throw. 20% minimum.

Who's to say I won't ban FD?

Ban BF and SV and any flat level while you're at it, lol.

Like I said, it's not the damage that's important from this, IMO. It's stage placement.
D3's chaingrab is crappy damage overall - but it puts you by the edge, and that's what helps him rack up even more damage.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ban BF and SV and any flat level while you're at it, lol.

Like I said, it's not the damage that's important from this, IMO. It's stage placement.
D3's chaingrab is crappy damage overall - but it puts you by the edge, and that's what helps him rack up even more damage.

I see.

Oh yeah, banning those stages would be a definite yes.

I was 55-45 of Ness, but im leaning for 50-50 now.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I can't see any major advantages Ness has over Sonic, but Sonic has a CG which brings ness to the edge, his worst place.

 

[Tenki]

I can't see any major advantages Ness has over Sonic, but Sonic has a CG which brings ness to the edge, his worst place.

Aerial priority.

and to an extent, projectiles. PKT tailwhip is superuseful against jumping people, and it can be used to combo into a PKT2 as well.

 

[Jim Morrison]

PKT2 is easily avoided with a jump. Only reason to get hit by it is to stand next to it, be on laggy Wifi or have a broken shield (or be caught in PK fire but you shouldnt be trapped in there in anyway.

 

[Tenki]

It's more of a defensive projectile.

Like if you're jumping or falling down, he can drag the tail in front of you and spin it so that if you airdodge, you still get caught.

Or do a low (near to the ground) tailwhip -> rotate it around and PKT2.

Or if he's falling to the ground, circle the PKT around him as a 'barrier' or possibly use it to PKT2 to get to the ground or counter-tackle an attack.

 

[ROOOOY!]

If the tail is good at catching airbourne people, then including the fact that Ness outclasses Sonic in the air, why would Sonic be above Ness at all unless put there by Ness, who's going to have difficulty getting him up there.

 

[Tenki]

Think of any situation you want to spinshot, jump, or spring to escape something.

Also, just because Ness's aerial game isn't just air vs air, it beats out a ton of Sonic's ground moves too, while having relatively little lag (difficult to punish/grab)

If all other examples fail, edge. One of the things Sonic players pride themselves upon is being able to circumvent the problem of not sweetspotting the edge / being vulnerable when too close to the edge is to be able to go over the edge or airdodge.

Say Ness is standing by the edge, and you spring and airdodge past him and float as much as possible inside the stage. Ness uses PKT1 and drags the PKT just over your landing spot, you get caught in the tail, and he circles it around and PKT2's you in the face.

Hypothetical situations, but either way, it's not unrealistic.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Ban BF and SV and any flat level while you're at it, lol.

Like I said, it's not the damage that's important from this, IMO. It's stage placement.
D3's chaingrab is crappy damage overall - but it puts you by the edge, and that's what helps him rack up even more damage.

So umm....lets say that you have a walk off edge like Delfino. Ness would have to stop using the SGB would he not (or risk getting killed off the side by a chaingrab)? Counterpick level? (I mean, it's already a pretty good Sonic level)

There's also a few walls there that you can chaingrab him into (okay, "grab release re-grab," but chaingrab sounds cooler) for pseudo infinites

 

[ShadowLink84]

The Cg does not really factor into the matchup since Ness can be a pain to grab due to his Fair.
Ness does have some issues trying tog rab Sonic. PI fire can be DI'ed out of so you shouldn't get grabbed by ness unless at low percents (where he couldn't kill you).

Sonic is very good at punishing since Ness' ground game isn't so strong though once Ness is in the air it becomes more problematic.

I would say 50-50 since neither character has anything over the other to really push it to their advantage.

Lucas though... easier for Sonic to deal with IMO.

 

[Vect0r]

I'm pretty sure this is an equal matchup. Even though Sonic can dodge PK Thunder pretty easily, I don't think Ness wouldn't have a chance against him.

But that's just me

 

[PKNintendo]

The Cg does not really factor into the matchup since Ness can be a pain to grab due to his Fair.
Ness does have some issues trying tog rab Sonic. PI fire can be DI'ed out of so you shouldn't get grabbed by ness unless at low percents (where he couldn't kill you).

Sonic is very good at punishing since Ness' ground game isn't so strong though once Ness is in the air it becomes more problematic.

I would say 50-50 since neither character has anything over the other to really push it to their advantage.

Lucas though... easier for Sonic to deal with IMO.

That. 100%. Cut and rap.

Can I quote your posts Sonic mains?

 

[Boxob]

PK thunder is such a bad move. I don't see the big deal in it.