Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Jim Morrison]

What KID says is kind of what I do :O

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

The Bair trap is like a harder to pull of jab lock. It works on everyone

And I want to re ***** things because things may have changed slightly. I've also been contemplating over the match up and I'm thinking - if Peach plays campy...what exactly can Sonic do? I've been thinking over it being 65:35 for Peach but I'm still very unsure and I'm probably guessing at it still being 60:40

 

[da K.I.D.]

not much, all peach really has to do is float down airs and wait for sonic to run into it

 

[Kinzer]

Why camp, when you already outprioritise Sonic's attacks?

Besides that, Peach can't camp with Turnips, you really are better off floating above the ground slighty and just thundering down with your glass slippers.

Sonic could also work around Peach's camp, I don't want to get into detail but you're not safe staying stationary with Sonic... or at least that was what both boards said, IIRC.

I'm 1/2way donewith the Lucario write-up, I'll link the page when it's ready for public view.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Kinzer, which matchup do you want me to write-up?

 

[Kinzer]

I got it taken care of G2.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510&page=293

I want everyone to take a look at that, and tell me what they think about it.

 

[~TBS~]

good stuff Kinzer. I NEEDED that, I seriously lack experience against Lucario. But, i do have a question. How do you deal with Campy/super defensive Lucarios? They just tend to give me some problems.

 

[Chis]

Bowser is 50:50
and
Wolf is 40:60 right?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yes z

 

[Chis]

Chck the OP, also:

 

[Browny]

Well since were finished Round 1 of the discussions... my opinions so far
rob -> 55:45 to 40:60
Yoshi 40:60 to maybe 50:50? (See 3000's latest vids vs Furbs yoshi... Doesnt show any signs of a noticeable disadvantage)
Pit from 50:50 to 45:55

And i would say sheik needs to be looked at again... but ive never played against a good sheik so idk lol

Also can i suggest changing the order of characters into the current tier list? the whole purpose of having them spread out all over the place to was remove character bias of putting low tiers at the end etc as we went through the whole cast but theres kind of no need for that any more lol

 

[~TBS~]

gah...top tiers ***** us.
Shiek, DJ? i havent played any either, but I have seen them pull off some pretty good stuff, man. They can be a problem if you mess up, and Shiek has teh ftilt combos. I agree with the Yoshi change, also. I played my fair share of Yoshi's, and its definitely even. Chis, that is an awesome match guide, and the pic *****.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'm not sure why Sheik is a disadvantage. Being my most played offline match-up, I feel it's neutral.

A few of the others that need looking at :

Yoshi
DK
MK (yes, really)
Ganon + Falcon (should be switched around IMO)
Olimar

 

[MalcolmM]

zss marth rob luigi ness mk shiek fox yoshi falcon

 

[Chis]

(Reminds people that we're discussing Sonic dittos now)

 

[iSpiN]

ROB is neutral IMHO, but the matchup entires mostly to the stage for me. If its a stage with a lot of plats then I'm screwed >_<

Sonic counters Sonic, there.

 

[da K.I.D.]

projectile campy ROBs sonic can deal with with out too much hassle, its the phycally campy ROBs that give sonic issues.

the ones that down tilt to stop your approach, out speed your attacks with jabs and out space you with ftilts

 

[Browny]

ummm malcolm care to explain how you think those matchups look?

 

[Chaco]

Random statement but, when looking at the total posts of character specific threads. All have around either on the low side of 20 thousand to 30 thousand...then you see Sonic boards with over 76 thousand. I guess it's true that steak bulks you up.

 

[darkNES386]

Random statement but, when looking at the total posts of character specific threads. All have around either on the low side of 20 thousand to 30 thousand...then you see Sonic boards with over 76 thousand. I guess it's true that steak bulks you up.

That's because matchup knowledge is EVERYTHING for success with Sonic.

@ROOOOOOY

Shiek matchup IS neutral at best. Shiek's game primarily revolves around effective gimps and utitlizing her speed and combo ability. Sonic can spring out of many combos and is very difficult to gimp. Shiek doesn't have incredible priority making this one of Sonic's more balanced matchups. A very large amount of this match is based on player skill/matchup knowledge.

Random Present from dNES: Try springing when you know ganon is going to short hop dair you

 

[Furbs]

Yoshi 40:60 to maybe 50:50? (See 3000's latest vids vs Furbs yoshi... Doesnt show any signs of a noticeable disadvantage)

I honestly wouldn't really count those for game-breaking reference,

3000 NEVER plays other players outside of tournaments and he was doing a lot of different things sense the last time we played (baiting from across the stage wtf!? lol)

whereas i haven't really changed my style sense the last time we played. granted he's a good player, but sense he never plays anyone (save for his brother t-rex an amazing snake) no one really knows how to fight him : /

 

[MalcolmM]

i think zss fox and yoshi shiek are neutral. i think ness and falcon are neutral. i think rob and luigi are harder than we have stated and i think mk and marth are both alot closer.
if we actually revisit matchups ill go into detail.

 

[ROOOOY!]

What we've got to consider is what does Yoshi actually have that gives him the advantage?

I'm sure it's nothing '.'

I agree with the Ganon thing, I don't think it's an advantage (well, MAYBE 55:45/60:40). You've got to play it safe when you're playing a character who can kill you at under 100% with a Ganon Choke => iDA.

==================

I pretty much agree with a lot of what Malcom has said.

Apart from the Ness/Captain Falcon part. I feel those should be a disadvantage and an advantage respectively.

In fact screw it, I'll write down what I feel all the characters that I disagree with are.

DK : 40:60 => 45:55
ZSS : 40:60 => 45:55
Luigi : 45:55 => 40:60 ?
ROB : 45:55 => 40:60
Yoshi : 40:60 => 50:50
Ganon : 60:40 =>55:45 maybe
Falcon : 55:45 => 60:40
Sheik : 40:60 => 45:55
Olimar : 45:55 => 40:60
Ike : 50:50 => 60:40
Wolf : 40:60 => something less ridiculous
Bowser : 50:50 => 55:45/60:40

How to read :

Match-up has to be looked into in depth again I feel
Plain text is just personal opinions on things. Haven't listed them all '.'
Most people would see as unreasonable though I am adamantly stubborn should be changed lol

 

[darkNES386]

Why are we so hung up on numbers? I'm more concerned with getting information out to other Sonic's so that we can improve our play against each opponent. Matchup numbers mean nothing if we don't discuss and post final summaries on what works and what doesn't. R.O.B. doesn't even have a summary under his post. He's not the only one.

 

[Chis]

Why are we so hung up on numbers? I'm more concerned with getting information out to other Sonic's so that we can improve our play against each opponent. Matchup numbers mean nothing if we don't discuss and post final summaries on what works and what doesn't. R.O.B. doesn't even have a summary under his post. He's not the only one.

This, numbers wont help people with the match up. We should focus more on write ups and and how to deal with problematic match ups more effectively.

 

[JayBee]

i must say this:

the numbers generally give the reader a heads up concerning the difficulty of the matchup, and lets them know a few things before reading the explanation. It is a more detailed and condensed way of saying that "character A is better than character B."

1: how easy/hard it is to impose the characters basic and advanced strategies on the other
2: how difficult it can be to disrupt that strategy, and how difficult it is to regain control of the match afterwords
3: how consistent can one character can give solid damage to the other with little risk.
4. and how easy/hard it can be to finish them off one the damage % has reached killing range, as well as what % is viable to begin using those strategies.

example:
If the matchup was 70: 30, you can tell that for whatever reason, sonic can impose his will with ease as well as kill without fear of massive punishment and/or the opponents characteristics prevent him from taking full advantage of sonic errors and possibly is unable to land a consistent KO move without risking punishment himself.

and this is before you read the explanation. what it can do is control your mindset into seeing a matchup as certain way, at least until u actually read the explanation, but i think it makes it a bit easier to dispute certain things when a matchup discussion is said.

by no means are the numbers meant to demean your favorite character or be the primary source of info in a matchup. it is a thesis that is quick to look over. however, if the supporting evidence is not unbiased, not only are the numbers confusing, but the supporting evidence is very much incomplete, misleading many unaware smashers, and angering some knowledgeable ones

Lastly, we need to include stage selection in our discussions. it will not always be final destination. we need to discuss each character's counter pick stage against the other, and how that increases or evens the odds of winning. that way people not only know what to look out for against a character, but what stages to ban, and counter pick with, to give them the best chance to fight back.

We also need to, when possible to link to advanced tournament examples of the matchup as reference here. that way, when one wins, it will be come more obvious as to why. this is better than having people come in who only play noob versions of sonic, exclaiming ignorance, and gives them indusputable evidence to support our arguments. Even if the match up is in the favor of one, we can, for example, see that sonic's ftilt may be the key to controlling the space to make it a 45:55 inssteak of 30:70 (GaW fans lol) and that counterpicking somthing like frigate can make it even.


I have spoken. Steak.

 

[Chis]

the numbers generally give the reader a heads up concerning the difficulty of the matchup, and lets them know a few things before reading the explanation. It is a more detailed and condensed way of saying that "character A is better than character B."

But numbers wont help people finding trouble with the match up. Time is better spent on discussing in greater detail on how to win.

example:
If the matchup was 70: 30, you can tell that for whatever reason, sonic can impose his will with ease as well as kill without fear of massive punishment and/or the opponents characteristics prevent him from taking full advantage of sonic errors and possibly is unable to land a consistent KO move without risking punishment himself.

Not necessarily. That's just and assumption, for all we know Sonic could have an infinite ( )

We also need to, when possible to link to advanced tournament examples of the matchup as reference here. that way, when one wins, it will be come more obvious as to why. this is better than having people come in who only play noob versions of sonic, exclaiming ignorance, and gives them indusputable evidence to support our arguments. Even if the match up is in the favor of one, we can, for example, see that sonic'ss ftilt may be the key to controlling the space to make it a 45:55 inssteak of 30:70 (GaW fans lol) and that counterpicking somthing like frigate can make it even.


I have spoken. Steak.

Interesting.

 

[JayBee]

Not necessarily. That's just and assumption, for all we know Sonic could have an infinite ( )


But numbers wont help people finding trouble with the match up. Time is better spent on discussing in greater detail on how to win.

Interesting.

later down the road, yeah, but were talking about current game, right?

you make it sound like all teh time is spent on the numbers, when usually the numbers are talked about after the discussion on how to win...

 

[Chis]

later down the road, yeah, but were talking about current game, right?

you make it sound like all teh time is spent on the numbers, when usually the numbers are talked about after the discussion on how to win...

Not really. When people enter a match up discussion they want to learn how to win against a certain character, numbers don't help that. All I'm saying is discussing how to win > match up numbers.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Discussing how to win + matchup numbers = the way to go. You get the numbers as a conclusion. Weighing characters pros and cons over each other will eventually result in an advantage to ones favor. How big that advantage is, is determined by the numbers. If you want to know how big that advantage is, read the numbers. Numbers are also useful to first know all your characters bad matchups.

 

[Chis]

So? Knowing how bad it is wont in anyway help you win it. We already got the numbers, even if they're not agreeable. Right now the focus should be deeper discussion on Sonics worst match ups, and how to win.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ah that's what we on about, I thought we were just discussing the value of numbers.
No, I agree that we should go further in-depth with some of our worse matchups.
Also, Chis, you have some write-ups to do. If you want, I'll do 1-2 for you.

 

[Chis]

Nah, I'm already half way through Falcon and Sheik. I still need more info on Pit though.... Ike is 95% done.

 

[iSpiN]

I concern myself with numbers when it comes to a characters placement in tiers. Also, ppl looking at a good secondary or new main will also look at the numbers to have an idea what the chances of them winning the match is.

Chis, do not forget that Ike fights 4 his friends.

 

[darkNES386]

Why are we so hung up on numbers? I'm more concerned with getting information out to other Sonic's so that we can improve our play against each opponent. Matchup numbers mean nothing if we don't discuss and post final summaries on what works and what doesn't. R.O.B. doesn't even have a summary under his post. He's not the only one.

I may not have been active all the time with this thread, but I have been with it since it was created. I'm just saying that if we invest more discussion in specific details about matchups then the numbers will kind of show themselves to us. The numbers shouldn't be the source of the debate. The numbers should be obvious to us once we cover the details.

I suggest we rewind all the way back to the start and cover each matchup again, discussing relevant stuff that we haven't covered/should be added. It just came to my attention that Sonic can down-B while holding ROBS gyro for some fun.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@ROOOOY:, why would bowser be changed to 60:40?
Why would Ike be 60:40 with Sonic?

I am curious about the reasoning for this especially with Ike. From my experiences with Ryko's Ike, neither character has anything over the other to really push it into their advantage.

 

[~TBS~]

@ROOOOY:, why would bowser be changed to 60:40?
Why would Ike be 60:40 with Sonic?

I am curious about the reasoning for this especially with Ike. From my experiences with Ryko's Ike, neither character has anything over the other to really push it into their advantage.

i played a couple, its worse that you think, man.
also, i am tired of stinking falcos. i need help and to get more info on how to deal with him. And i need help against marth, lucario, and G&W. i know this isnt a "i need help thread" but still, they seem to impose problems.

I agree with you there about Ike, though SL. We all played Ikes and got good results. Its really what you stated, they both just even each other out. But, Sonic can gimp Ike

 

[MalcolmM]

so....are we gonna discuss something? lol. and marth isnt even close to sonics worst 3 matchups. neither is meta.

 

[Kinzer]

Lastly, we need to include stage selection in our discussions. it will not always be final destination. we need to discuss each character's counter pick stage against the other, and how that increases or evens the odds of winning. that way people not only know what to look out for against a character, but what stages to ban, and counter pick with, to give them the best chance to fight back.

We also need to, when possible to link to advanced tournament examples of the matchup as reference here. that way, when one wins, it will be come more obvious as to why. this is better than having people come in who only play noob versions of sonic, exclaiming ignorance, and gives them indusputable evidence to support our arguments. Even if the match up is in the favor of one, we can, for example, see that sonic's ftilt may be the key to controlling the space to make it a 45:55 inssteak of 30:70 (GaW fans lol) and that counterpicking somthing like frigate can make it even.


I have spoken. Steak.

We already cover this towards the end, if you reac each section with the completed character write-ups (or at least mine), they always have "recommended stages" filled out and accounted for.

We do this as well.

We either ignore them entirely, or burn the n00bs to a crisp.

Steak bros. 4 lyfe.

Not really. When people enter a match up discussion they want to learn how to win against a certain character, numbers don't help that. All I'm saying is discussing how to win > match up numbers.

I just look at it like a TL:DR version.

I know when I go to matchup threads that don't concern Ike or Sonic, I look for a number if I don't feel like reading a really detailed write-up if one is available.

JB also said something about how hard/easy we should be expecting a matchup, he's somewhat right.

For one, you can't ever let your gaurd down against competent players, and two, Sonic has no matchups that are better than 6:4 his favor so I am forced to play serious in all my games unless nothing is at Steak.

I may not have been active all the time with this thread, but I have been with it since it was created. I'm just saying that if we invest more discussion in specific details about matchups then the numbers will kind of show themselves to us. The numbers shouldn't be the source of the debate. The numbers should be obvious to us once we cover the details.

I suggest we rewind all the way back to the start and cover each matchup again, discussing relevant stuff that we haven't covered/should be added. It just came to my attention that Sonic can down-B while holding ROBS gyro for some fun.

Nobody wants to talk about Mario man, for one thing even though the numbers say its 55:45 his favor, we all know it's more even now and it doesn't matter because they don't give us any noticeable trouble and there aren't too many tourney'going Marios to begin with. We want to cover our more harder/frequently seen matchups, or a combination of both of them.

i played a couple, its worse that you think, man.
also, i am tired of stinking falcos. i need help and to get more info on how to deal with him. And i need help against marth, lucario, and G&W. i know this isnt a "i need help thread" but still, they seem to impose problems.

I agree with you there about Ike, though SL. We all played Ikes and got good results. Its really what you stated, they both just even each other out. But, Sonic can gimp Ike

I dunno what the trouble is with Falco that you have Speed, take it from me when I said that unless it was a fluke somehow, me and Sk went moreorless even (of course he won because he wast he better player but bleh).

As for G&W, I think some of us have also made mention before that it's all about playing a slower game and playing more to space/punish... you can't play as free-willed as you want to.

Take it from me again when I say that when it comes to Lucario, it's about mindgames, and adding a little bit of that G&W mindset to Lucario.

Also since this thread is closer to being "complete" you can go ahead and ask if you need help, I'm sure some of us will look into it. I wish I could help you on Marth though, but I have never fought any of a high calibur to assist you. It's good that you ask so that we can see which matchups we might want to focus on.

so....are we gonna discuss something? lol. and marth isnt even close to sonics worst 3 matchups. neither is meta.

Sonic dittos, but I think everybody keeps forgetting this.

Either that, or we've gone and taken care of THAT and we're just donig whatever we feel like.

 

[MalcolmM]

lol im not discussing a ditto...thats such a silly idea. clearly its even. camp each others kill moves and live up to 200% each stock. then the first person to die can spam ASC which will kill @ 200 and then u can do it all over again.

and sk92 doesnt play "safe" aka really gay and campy as falco. hes the type of falco many of us would absolutely love to play against...he takes risks...attempts flashy things and leaves himself open. the typical falco just presses B. that falco is alot more effective against sonic than the flashy sk92...altho i do love his style. hes the most entertaining falco to watch by far...but i wouldnt base a matchup being close off of him.

a good hypothetical thats very similar to that would be. if one of the top 10 snake players was insanely aggressive and did amazing things with snake but never camped grenades and tilts. one of us sonic mainers did well against him. would we then say snake is a decent matchup? even tho he is the only snake who doesnt camp? do u even call that matchup experience if its a matchup that is played completely different by the rest of the snake community?


sidenote b4 i get the flame: sk92 is a good player. i dont think hes bad in any way shape or form...i am just referring to his playstyle and how it differs from the typical falco.

numbers are for people...who dont main sonic. so if they for some reason say "yo my sonic is good...maybe ill use him in tourney as a secondary or a counterpick...lemme check the sonic boards and see his good matchups" then that person wont have to read 310 pages or every matchup summary. they can see the numbers and decide from there.

i think we should discuss metaknight again...and marth again. cause i hate seeing them as they are right now...especially marth. i think its in his advantadge but nowhere near this 65:35 stuff. ill c if i can get edit: KNOWLEDGABLE :itde marth ppl to write stuff