Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[ShadowLink84]

Start up lag and after lag have nothing to do with the priority and range and what not.
=\
Unless you are saying you are safe due to your range at which point, I am inclined to agree.

 

[Browny]

only other lucario main in my state spams roll dodges like youve never seen before, and the only lucario main i know of in this country besides me doesnt take brawl seriously (at least not to the level I do) The only way i could help here is if i play lucario while other aussie sonics try to play against me. Lizam where are you... youre the only other 'good' active sonic i know lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

Move to NY dj.

 

[iSpiN]

Didn't Malcolm play the best Lucario in the states @ CoT4? I forgot his name.

 

[Teran]

Didn't Malcolm play the best Lucario in the states @ CoT4? I forgot his name.

Isn't that Azen?

 

[iSpiN]

Isn't that Azen?

I don't think he played Azen, I maybe wrong.

 

[infomon]

Lee Martin.

And yes, talk to Malcolmm.

 

[MalcolmM]

i dont have #s for it but...its really hard. u can play amazing and lucario can change from trying to make the game fun to pitching the tent in an instant. once he sets up shop in the corner charging his aura spheres...i guess sonic can not approach....something i didnt do against lee martin. but if u do approach its pretty much over. its alot like falco...except u can get killed very easily by lucario @ high %s. hes very safe. if u can gimp him then go 4 it but besides 1 or 2 instances in teams....and 1 or 2 instances in singles...leemartin wasnt gimped the entire tourney...and i think all of those instances were either MK or mistakes on his part. also hes not weak @ any area in the air...which is weird for a character. most characters have some sort of weak spot in the air u can make good use of...lucario doesnt. so u cant chase him and force mistakes...cause he doesnt have to think against sonic once he gets hit. he just has to keep tapping down on the c stick in the air. not to mention the amonut of killing options he gets as the aura gets stronger...upair nair dair bair uptilt all smash attacks grab and the aura spehere? even the ftilt and counter can kill u... u have to watch out for sooooooo many things against him...its hard to play that safe. especially when u can perfectly space ur bair...and get uptilted anyway cause the aura hits u lol.

blue also got 2 stocked by azens lucario. my matches with lee martin were much closer...but as i said...once lee started pitching the tent it was a wrap for me.

its a really hard matchup...for me. it could be my playstyle tho so if ppl wanna say otherwise im willing to hear it.

but yeah i could go witih 60:40...i think its winnable and for alot of the match i was winning...it was just finishing the job i found to be quite difficult.

 

[iSpiN]

I have yet to fight a good Lucario so my opinion wouldn't help.

 

[da K.I.D.]

malcolm is right on a lot of point but i think hes wrong in places too.

1. luc doesnt have THAT many killing options. I personally think its your fault if you die from his n air. both characters have to be at pretty high percents for back air, up air, or up tilt, depending on postioning on the stage. and good lucs, should rarely use up smash or down smash. luc has to see way way ahead of time to even hit with up smash. however i think if you pull too many spring down airs, or too many HAs, both of those are great oppurtunities for luc to upsmash sonic.

2. the down air, lucarios love and will use it at just about every opputunity, however sonic has to mobility necessary to bait a down air and hit lucario around it, and its a semi hard thing to learn that is invaluable for sonic in the match.

3. i dont see how having 1 chargeable projectile makes lucario a camping fortress, because it seems that that would make pit samus and falco matches unwinnable for sonic.

4. i think you just have to play patient, lucario isnt a laggy character, but sonic is a character that makes lucario way more punishable than he usually is, thats what makes sonic good.

5. learn to instant dash attack out of shield, if you are good at it, you can punish lucs f smash.

6. 55-45 in lucarios favor, they go back and forth and trade damage but the aura will many times let luc kill sonic before sonic kills luc. but when you kill luc first, it makes it harder for luc to kill sonic cause he will be weak from the damage reset

 

[JayBee]

if a player wants to be gay with a character and try to camp then gain % advantage and camp them back. run away, run away, fake an approach, then run away again. then when they lose and complain about how the match took too long, you can say its because they camped too much. the end.

if its a tournament and they wanna be gay, be gay right back. its a shame though that a with the awesomeness some of these characters in this game have that's the best some can come up with. "I have a gyro and a laser? that's perfect for camping." "I have short hopped laser spam and an early chain grab? lets use that for camping." and that's all they can come up with for the most part.

I think one of the reasons sonic's mindgames are so developed, is that the majority of the other cast dont bother with it outside of the basic "lol i made u airdodge" trick.

 

[MalcolmM]

i dont wanna hype lucario up...but its different from pit because pit cant shield cancel his arrows into alot of different mixups. its different from falco because lucario has so many kill options. its different from samus because samus wouldnt risk a grab out of a charge her upsmash is garbage and her aerials dont kill so u have little to worry about. also her projectile isnt much of a threat.

the matchup is bad because of risk vs reward. sonic has to take risks in using his kill moves and the reward is he either gets the kill or he gets killed because of it.

lucario has to take little to no risk. kid has explained u can dash attack lucario...thats great...now if the dash attack killed that would be important in the matchup. but if all u have to worry about....is a dash attack for using ur fsmash that will kill once u hit 130 @ 90% then...ur taking very little risk...since the only thing that happens from the dash attack is u get more % and get stronger.

no1 has explained to me how u kill lucario. thats because if any1 has any vids against a lucario they know that their kills were not legitimate. smart players arent getting killed with fully charged fsmashes and i dont base my matchups off of that. do u bair him? that would be an amazing option...except he can just fsmash and negate ur whole opportunity. or he could just use one of his FASTER THAN YOURS aerials...that kill. do u use a smash attack? lol...u kno thats so punishable its lol worthy. do u gimp him? sure u do...because if the person playing has no idea how to play lucario or brawl @ all...u can gimp them with lucario vs sonic. but once u tell them..just DI up...what do u do then? when lucario is above the stage how do u gimp him? u dont. so at the highest levels of play where gimping happens mayb once in 5 matches...and both ppl kno the matchup and each otheres kill options...do u REALLY feel its 55:45?... a dash attack doesnt merit 55:45. if u could bait a spotdodge or something from lucario i would agree whole heartedly...or even if he had a bad roll so u could punish his roll...but that isnt the case. his roll is beastly and he has no reason to make a fear move like an airdodge or spotdodge.

 

[JayBee]

the problem is not dealing the damage, is the finishing, and in all scenarios this is difficult, even more so if the sonic is aggressively lookign for it, while the lucario is playing defensive, and Di's well, and from the vids i've seen, is almost always the case. I think that sonic should try to slow down once they get that high % and just continue intelligently racking damage. but still, it'll take a while. I'm probably gonna run alot to at least prevent easy counters by lucario. even saying that its ify because i have to try to kill him eventually.

 

[da K.I.D.]

he dies to up throw earlier than most characters.

also about dash attack to punish lucario.
it doenst kill them but it puts them in a bad spot, if they are at like 140 and you dash attack them, if you hit with the weak hitbox, it sets up for the anthinus combo, which is admittedly, very risky.
But if you hit with the stronger hitbox, he goes a decent amount into the air, and all that stuff i say about baiting a down air and then hitting around it with a back air comes into play and you can get a kill that way.

 

[ShadowLink84]

2. the down air, lucarios love and will use it at just about every opputunity, however sonic has to mobility necessary to bait a down air and hit lucario around it, and its a semi hard thing to learn that is invaluable for sonic in the match.

That falls into mindgames KiD.
Sonic baits Lucario Dairs and then you punish. It isn't a solid thing since most Lucario's won't use a Dair unless they are on top of you

3. i dont see how having 1 chargeable projectile makes lucario a camping fortress, because it seems that that would make pit samus and falco matches unwinnable for sonic.

It isn't that the projectile is spammableor anything. Its the fact that its very safe just like Falco's projectile. It allows him to hinder your approaches with little worry.

4. i think you just have to play patient, lucario isnt a laggy character, but sonic is a character that makes lucario way more punishable than he usually is, thats what makes sonic good.

This I think its because of SOnic's speed that lucario is able to be punished since no other character except falcon can really move that quickly.

5. learn to instant dash attack out of shield, if you are good at it, you can punish lucs f smash.

Does a dash grab work?

6. 55-45 in lucarios favor, they go back and forth and trade damage but the aura will many times let luc kill sonic before sonic kills luc. but when you kill luc first, it makes it harder for luc to kill sonic cause he will be weak from the damage reset

ehh I say 60-40, if only because Lucario can kill easier than Sonic @_@
its only because we can't finish the job without difficulty and a campy Lucario is a ***** to kill.
hell its the main reason we have disadvantages @_@

 

[phi1ny3]

That falls into mindgames KiD.
Sonic baits Lucario Dairs and then you punish. It isn't a solid thing since most Lucario's won't use a Dair unless they are on top of you

It isn't that the projectile is spammableor anything. Its the fact that its very safe just like Falco's projectile. It allows him to hinder your approaches with little worry.
This I think its because of SOnic's speed that lucario is able to be punished since no other character except falcon can really move that quickly.
Does a dash grab work?


ehh I say 60-40, if only because Lucario can kill easier than Sonic @_@
its only because we can't finish the job without difficulty and a campy Lucario is a ***** to kill.
hell its the main reason we have disadvantages @_@

I agree with these points, and I do have to say it is winnable, but very hard from what I've seen (I fought a few sonics, and have to say that he has good punishing options, but you prolly have a better chance at gimping than killing, even though both are hard).
AS is hardly spammable compared to other projectiles like you said, but it is a great and safe pressure projectile.
Lucario has some solid options in the air, and I agree with the mentality that it's really a sonic attempting to pierce through relatively ginormous hitboxes while lucario is playing defensive. Also, difficulty killing will cause lucario's kill options to practically double (fthrow, utilt, ftilt, dsmash, and utilt get more killworthy when at high percents for lucario, and when your opponent is at high percents bthrow, lucario's tilts as a whole, and uair become good killers too).
I frankly think that I as a lucario would play this game similarly to vs. a sheik, but unlike sheik, I think sonic's more attuned punishing and speed can certainly stand a chance vs. lucario (we said 65:35 vs. sheik)
I'd say 60:40, though it's really the sonic board's decision to make.

 

[babybaby 12 (banned 3x)]

I think its even. Sonic and Lucario are both amazing characters with lots of potential. Maybe 55-45 Lucario, but I'll go with even. Sonic has the speed, but Lucario has the priority and aura boost.

 

[ShadowLink84]

bad reasons are bad babybaby. Lurk more.

 

[iSpiN]

I think its even. Sonic and Lucario are both amazing characters with lots of potential. Maybe 55-45 Lucario, but I'll go with even. Sonic has the speed, but Lucario has the priority and aura boost.

Rofl, but yeah Malcolm, I'm sticking to what I said in the chat about Lucario kinda like Marth and I'm sticking with that. Except Marth didn't have a projectile and a really good Dair V_V

 

[da K.I.D.]

That falls into mindgames KiD.
Sonic baits Lucario Dairs and then you punish. It isn't a solid thing since most Lucario's won't use a Dair unless they are on top of you

and its not hard for sonic to be under him, and than change positioning to where hes on the side of him, when sets up for luc t get hit.

It isn't that the projectile is spammableor anything. Its the fact that its very safe just like Falco's projectile. It allows him to hinder your approaches with little worry.

i guess

This I think its because of SOnic's speed that lucario is able to be punished since no other character except falcon can really move that quickly.

exactly.

Does a dash grab work?

no, youll get jabbed out of it. maybe if you are like super fram perfect it might be possible, but no.

ehh I say 60-40, if only because Lucario can kill easier than Sonic @_@
its only because we can't finish the job without difficulty and a campy Lucario is a ***** to kill.
hell its the main reason we have disadvantages @_@

i agree

 

[Kinzer]

Rofl, but yeah Malcolm, I'm sticking to what I said in the chat about Lucario kinda like Marth and I'm sticking with that. Except Marth didn't have a projectile and a really good Dair V_V

And yet Marth still manages to pull off a 65:35 while we are still discussing wather it should be 6:4 or only 55:45 for Lucario (I could vouch for 55:45, but it's just a small difference that it really could not matter, I'm down with either.). Then again we really do need to go over some old matchups, even though for Marth it would probably not change seeing as how most if not all of us notice to have a lot of trouble vs. Marth. I just wonder what we will do without Greenstreet here, somebody needs to remind him he still upholds this stickied thead.

BTW you would be doing the board a favor if you actually stated your opinion here as to what you said in the Xatroom, not all of us were there to have seen what you had to say about the matchup.

Unless of course it's either common knowledge or something that has already been mentioned, then there is no point in doing it.

One more thing I want to mention is how fast people decided to move away from the Steak ditto matchup... do you people really hate fighting Sonic as Sonic THAT much?

...Can somebody remind me what stages we should go to/avoid at all cost with Lucario? I kind of lost track of things.

 

[iSpiN]

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/lightning39/FoxMatchups-1.png?t=1234450115

This is coming from the Fox boards, does anyone else agree with this?

 

[Tenki]

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/lightning39/FoxMatchups-1.png?t=1234450115

This is coming from the Fox boards, does anyone else agree with this?

It was something like that.

45:55 - 40:60

But what are numbers without description?

Most Fox vs Sonic games are just both sides trying to bait each other to approach with something punishable. In terms of approaches, Fox's approaches aren't very safe for the most part, so he generally plays defensive, with lasers to complement his stay-back style.

Sonic punishes often but Fox punishes almost twice as hard (in terms of damage and/or knockback) whenever he gets the chance to.

It's one of those vague this-might-actually-be-neutral kinds of matchups.

The description above makes it really seem in Fox's favor, but still, in actual gameplay, the game goes to who can camp better, so it's kind of bleh.

One more thing I want to mention is how fast people decided to move away from the Steak ditto matchup... do you people really hate fighting Sonic as Sonic THAT much?

I don't mind it, unless it's a wifi match and I fail to punish predictable movements D:

Sonic can be really punishable sometimes lol.

 

[infomon]

Most Fox vs Sonic games are just both sides trying to bait each other to approach with something punishable. In terms of approaches, Fox's approaches aren't very safe for the most part, so he generally plays defensive, with lasers to complement his stay-back style.

The only Fox' I've played go mostly aggro with Dairs. Dair Dair Dair. Dair > Utilt. Dair > Shine. Dair > Dsmash. idk what the frame data is on that, but I was able to shieldgrab it a lot So idk what's up with that.... anyone?

Fox' lasers aren't really useful vs. Sonic from a neutral position, since we're so fast. But our movement trajectories are often predictable enough that they certainly build up damage while we're recovering or are otherwise preoccupied.

I like how the Fox-Pika matchup is listed as "LOL"

 

[Jim Morrison]

My strategy as Fox is to rack up damage with Laser, but not spam it, just when your far away, just shoot one laser. E.G. I knocked you with F-smash, just not killed. I shoot some lasers to hit you.

 

[Chis]

Counter picks against Lucario?

 

[da K.I.D.]

my doubles teammate was the first one to discover that frigate is pretty much lucarios go to counter pick long long ago

i dont really know what to CP luc with, hes pretty adaptable, he doesnt have anything thats like super super awful for him.

i would just CP stage that im good at against him. corneria, Greens, FD, the basics

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Lylaaaaaaaaaat.........

Cept for Tenki.

 

[Tenki]

The only Fox' I've played go mostly aggro with Dairs. Dair Dair Dair. Dair > Utilt. Dair > Shine. Dair > Dsmash. idk what the frame data is on that, but I was able to shieldgrab it a lot So idk what's up with that.... anyone?

Yeah, that's sloppy play.

Most good Fox people will retreat their D-airs. Like, not even move forward+retreat - like just straight out retreat (or do an initially non-moving D-air), and move forward if it makes contact, since it combos (or goes close to) comboing into certain moves.

Lylaaaaaaaaaat.........

Cept for Tenki.

 

[Teran]

Yeah, that's sloppy play.

Most good Fox people will retreat their D-airs. Like, not even move forward+retreat - like just straight out retreat (or do an initially non-moving D-air), and move forward if it makes contact, since it combos (or goes close to) comboing into certain moves.

Good Foxes are more likely to be going with Nair. Dair spam is heavily discouraged in intelligent Fox play.
And yeah you're right about the retreating Dairs.

Spoiler

Because Tenki is always right xD

 

[iSpiN]

I still say the matchup is somewhat neutral since Fox requires Dair for all of his good stuff. Oh well, Fox sucks. Not to say Sonic is much better, but Fox is pretty bad. At least Sonic doesn't get butt slammed by a 1 foot 4 inched Yellow mouse that can only say his name. ^________^

 

[Kinzer]

Oh yeah that's right.

Corneria/GGs and other stages with low blastzones should take advantage of Lucario's ability to get too strong.

If both are banned, then go whever you can, because nothing can make you have the stage advantage against him.

BTW I encourage the lot of you to discuss the Steak ditto while you talk about Fox, because as much as some of you hate ditto matches, you might have to have some kind of knowledge for it if it ever comes up in a double-blind tounrament.

 

[Tenki]

my hwo2beatm3atknightthred is basically what I try to do in Sonic ditto matches, lol.

Oh yeah, so if you're up against a Sonic that likes to spinshot> spring>D-air, you can usually shield the falling spring then either SH F-air, try to grab, or walk/foxtrot F-smash the predicted landing point.

More matchup specific, if the Sonic likes to spring when you try to intercept his recovery, jump towards him and do an earlier/lower spring>U-air/B-air to catch him before he can airdodge or attack. I've landed kills like that on about three different Sonic players with predictable spring usage.

 

[phi1ny3]

my doubles teammate was the first one to discover that frigate is pretty much lucarios go to counter pick long long ago

i dont really know what to CP luc with, hes pretty adaptable, he doesnt have anything thats like super super awful for him.

i would just CP stage that im good at against him. corneria, Greens, FD, the basics

Some other options that aren't so good for lucario (tho not sure about sonic) are RC, and more or less Yoshi's Island (Pipes).
Out of the ones you mentioned GG and corneria are especially bad for lucario.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I still say the matchup is somewhat neutral since Fox requires Dair for all of his good stuff. Oh well, Fox sucks. Not to say Sonic is much better, but Fox is pretty bad. At least Sonic doesn't get butt slammed by a 1 foot 4 inched Yellow mouse that can only say his name. ^________^

I jizzed when I read that.

I don't think Fox has the advantage either, but blah I say, BLAH!

It's just a game of punishment, whilst Fox punishes harder (and it's more difficult for them to do really, thanks to the safe nature of Sonic) Sonic can punish the hell out of Fox's playstyle by playing patient and punishing his very committed attacks and approaches. Factor in Sonic being able to edgeguard the hell out of Fox (this isn't player specific, it's down to the punishability of the very telegraphical and easily interceptable recovery) I could see this swinging in Sonic's favour over Foxes, but I'd call it 50:50 being fair.

I also don't know what the **** was happening when we decided Yoshi was a disadvantage, and I agreed myself. Just because everyone else is crouching in fear of a gimmicky situational tech and giving stupid Yoshi match-up scores doesn't mean we should follow suit. I hope this is changed once we go back through them. Again, I don't know why I campaigned for 40:60 in the first place.

I blame drugs.

 

[Kinzer]

Phi's old sig told you drugs ain't cool.

Sonic tells you the same thing.

Peter Griffion made a whole school drop toad.

Drugs are NO GOOD!

On-Topic : Pipes is usually banned as well, and I have a personal vendetta against RC.

Brinstar works good here too.

And now that I think about small stages can work like a double-edged sword.

Sure you can kill Lucario much earlier here, but what happens when you don't? You're going to have to be very quick to act when it comes to killing, no doubt about that.

Defenitely much better than having to go to say the likes of Jungle Japes and dare I say Newpork City.

 

[Chis]

I'm starting Sonic on the next page. Please number your posts...

12th

 

[Kinzer]

Why not let me manage the matchup Chis? Any reason you feel up to the responsibility (not that I have any problem)?

13th.

 

[ROOOOY!]

The drug was Suckasuraus. That's a legal drug (barely).

Don't go Battlefield against Lucario, you'll get ***** hardcore.

Basically, any stage that forces you to go aerial with platforms is a no go. UNLESS it's a stage that he's unsafe on, like on Rainbow Cruise or something where his recovery sucks. That and Rainbow Cruise I find to be a pretty good stage for Sonic :3

He's pretty punishable on the ground though, unlike his frikkin lagless aerials. Pick stages that keeps him....non-aerial, even FD would do for this.

....

Bah, I haven't been on this site and done anything productive for ages. I'm rusty >_>

14th son.

 

[infomon]

Defenitely much better than having to go to say the likes of Jungle Japes and dare I say Newpork City.

What? Newpork City is fantastic for Sonic. Just land one dropped spring, then spend the entire rest of the match running around. Lucario can't catch you. Just circle the large wall structure on the middle-left, it's playing tag with a fat kid around a house, and he's it.

That being said, don't let Lucario get you first..... since he'd still be frustrating to catch up to.

15th