Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Jim Morrison]

I might do one/two.

Chis, add my Falcon matchup.

 

[Kinzer]

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=627022#p627022

Take a look into it fellas, I suppose DNES wants to go over Pikachu, even though nothing seems to have changed and the matchup is more or less finished.

But it's never a bad thing to review, now is it?

 

[Chis]

Sonic dittos, discuss them.

 

[Kinzer]

Hmm... Chis, what more could you possibly want? Someone to go into fine detail about the ditto match?

We've all shared our 2cents on it, and quite frankly my opponent is playing campy, I hate it almost as much as having to watch a MK ditto that doesn't have two pros going at it.

I won't see your response though, I'm going to bed.

Nighty night.

 

[Chis]

Write ups that need to be done:

G&W
Ness
R.O.B
Snake
Peach
Zelda
Metaknight
Ice Climbers
Yoshi
Falco
Gannon
Falcon
Sheik (more info)
Pit (more info)
Pokemon Trainer
Lucas
Toon Link
Wolf
Bowser
Lucario
Sonic (more info)

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think i can definitely do ganon and lucario

 

[Jim Morrison]

I feel confident doing this write-up, after playing Knee's Falcon with green/blue connection nearly daily...

CAPTAIN FALCON - Character Matchup 22

Introduction
Captain Falcon has been in the Smash Bros. Series right from the start. Always being a decent character, built for combos, he'd receive decent credit. In Brawl, however, he has been nerfed on some aspects. Hitstun was reduced, making Falcon less of a combo machine, thus reducing his effectiveness. His awesome finisher, the Knee of Justice, has also been nerfed. It now has a much smaller box of time for a sweetspot.

Behaviour:
Falcon is quite the aggresive character. It depends on the players style in this matchup wether he approaches or not. It's basicly a camp fast. You can keep camping. Another thing worth noting: Both are speed characters and rely a lot on punishment. Falcon kills earlier than Sonic and has more priority, however, Sonic has the tools to gimp and punish well. Falcon is much more dominant in the air than on the ground.

Commonly Used Moves:
Jab: Falcon jab is sexsauce, he can hold A and spam it over 9000 times a second. It also has a good priority. Falcons jab is about 50% of his ground game. He has tons of followups with single/double jabs. He can grab, repeat jabs, finish the jabs or up-B to punish a shielder after jabbing.

U-tilt: Falcons U-tilt is another one of his amazing ground moves. He can spam it. It's got IASA frames and WAY too good priority/range on it. Can kill. Falcon can sort of safely spam this move when you are hanging on the ledge.

U-air: This is how Falcon becomes a winrar. It can combo at low %, kill at higher %, cancels out a spring you drop, be AC'd and more more more cool stuff. A very good move. Also beats out our D-air.

D-air: This isn't very effective in this matchup, since it won't spike up to 50% or so, where we can just spring back. This should only hit you when coming out of a Spring, and even then you should airdodge/U-air it.

B-air: An amazing Falcon aerial, can be SHFF without lag. Weak hitbox leads to followups, strong hitbox kills. B-air your opponent with awesome spacing.

F-air: The Knee. Nerfed from melee, but still should be feared. You think you'll never get hit, but oh, play a good Falcon and see yourself getting Knee'd once every stock. This isn't used as an approach anymore, but more as a punisher. Most obvious to punish Sonic would be laggy F-airs, D-airs or airdodges. This is totally gonna kill you.

D-smash: A good, quick move that should never be forgotten. It punishes rolls amazingly well. Near the ledge it covers getup, roll and jump. This should be shielded and then grabbed.

F-smash: Another good killer, however has a lot of cooldown to it. Shield it and dashgrab in. This move can also be stutterstepped.

Grab: Falcon has an (above) average grab game. Decent pummels and throws. D-throw leads into stuff if you don't pay attention. Airdodge after being D-thrown.

How to Win:
In this match you should by no means play aggresively. Instead, play safe, leave no openings and don't get punished. Gimping Falcon is no easy task, as his up-B grabs you out of your attacks. Space well. If you get close you get jabbed, which can do easily 15-20%. Don't be afraid to shield, his moves don't take away an awesome amount of shield, except F-smash. Try to stay grounded here. Don't Spindash more than necessary, Falcons jab clanks, after which he can do another jab. In the air your main moves should be U-air and B-air. Make sure you get down to the ground ASAP and airdodge frequently.

Don't be predictable with your recovery. Switch up between normal jumps, high Springs, side-B recovery. Also, don't go swinging your kill moves around, you'll want your moves fresh every chance you get. Play to rack up damage. Sonics F-air is a decent move, as it goes over Jab. Watch out for Falcon Kick ledge cancel stuff. However, only a few Falcons can actually implement it (LIKE SPINSHOT). If Falcon has some prediction, you might just get hit by a Falcon Punch.

Grab Falcon a lot, throw him around. U-throw > Spring > U-air is always decent, but DI messes it up. Can kill at 100%. Don't pummel, throw it out immedeatly.

Recommended Stages:

Ban Battlefield, Falcon seriously get an advantage from the platforms
Counterpick Final Destination, the lack of platforms give you the oppurtunity to abuse the fact that you are faster than the 2nd fastest in the game.

Matchup Summary:

55:45
___________________________________________________

We didn't have a lot of Falcon input here, so I based some of this from own expierence.

Chis, you can copy paste this, as long as you give me credit.

It saddens me that Chis was too lazy to add this, or missed this. Just requoting to make sure you get it this time.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I can do IC's probably and ROB tonight.

 

[Tenki]

It saddens me that Chis was too lazy to add this, or missed this. Just requoting to make sure you get it this time.

WAaa--

Don't airdodge after getting D-thrown by Falcon D:

It sets you up for either regrab or something worse, like a knee to punish your airdodge.

DI away and try to spring or double jump out.

If you're at low %, maybe airdodge, but definitely don't hold it as one of your more common choices

 

[Camalange]

I can do IC's probably and ROB tonight.

Do you mind if I do the ROB write up? I want to help contribute to this thing, and ROB is the only match up I truley know by heart >_>

 

[Kinzer]

You might want to think about some of these write-ups guys, you're better off not doing them if they're managed by GS who probably won't get it done because I haven't seen him around here in a very long time.

 

[OFY]

a pro shiek player as in...who? button inputs dont make u a pro. and no matter what they do with the chain...there is no reason for u to run into it unless they have the % lead and its last minute.

Yea but that attribute makes Shiek distinct, like Snakes DAC plays a huge part in why snake is a good character, not the most important but it is taken into consideration.

Just like this should be for Shiek, I understand not running into it when used, but I don't think that's how it's intended to be used. More as an edgeguard with bair in its hitbox.

Epic amounts of win there.

 

[Browny]

Dacus doesnt make snake good... The huge part in why Snake is a good character is because he outranges, outprioritizes, outdamages, outkills and outlives every single character in most aspects lol. Dacus is the least of my concern when im against snake, nair, ftilt and dthrow are far more worrying lol

 

[Napilopez]

Omg, I just wrote a huge writeup about MK in KC24's thread, and I'm not about to let that all go to waste because the thread was closed D:

So here:

Well, we've already had quite a bit of discussion concerning Meta, KC.

The reality is, Sonic will likely never become an MK counter. For that, Sonic would have to have a favorable matchup, which he simply does not. There are also several metaknights who don't know the matchup as well as we do. Like Nado stops ASC usage as a flat out attack, dairing after a dash attack while usually yield in a hit for MK, Dashgrabbing Sonic after a dair is a great option, etc.

MK has quicker attacks, a better overall air game, better kill moves which you don't have to be mindgamed into. A good enough MK is ridiculously hard to gimp anyways. In your footstool situation, all metaknight has to do is fly under the stage to the other side and use another recovery move.

That said, I firmly believe that in actual real life matchesand high enough technical levels with both characters, Sonic can go virtually even with MK, or at least close to that. Few Sonics will agree, Malcolm may be my only other supporter on this, but I have my reasons to believe so. Let me elaborate.

Metaknight has an overall better moveset than Sonic. You cannot deny this. However, in this specific matchup, there are certain qualities Sonic has that tends to let him fare quite well if the Sonic know what he is doing.

1) The effectiveness of Aerial Shuttle Loop is vastly reduced against Sonic. The reason is simple. If Sonic springs immediately after hearing the shuttle loop initiate while in the path of damage of the shuttle loop, the Spring projectile will outprioritize shuttle loop. Shuttle loop is one of MKs best killing options, maybe second only to his Dsmash. Having this move virtually removed makes it much more difficult for Sonic to be gimped so long as he is not playing stupidly.

2) Sonic is significant;y heavier than metaknight, with better momentum cancelling. Sonic will live to higher percents.

3) MK has better "overall" range, but Sonic has individual moves that will beat out several of MK's moves. Ftilt>MK dtilt(not sure about this one). Sonic spamming dtilt, spaced, will beat out MK spamming his dtilt. I know this from experience lol. Sonics Bair has more range than MKs Fair/Dair. Learn to space it. The hitbox etends a bit past the actual foot animation.

4) Metaknight cannot pursue Sonic. MKs airspeed is pessimal, and while he has one of the fastest running speeds in the game, its obviously no match for Sonic's. in a way, I find camping with Sonic involves doing exactly the Opposite: moving around alot because they can't catch you. Add to this that MK is lacking a projectile, and it becomes quite difficult for MK to effectively chase a dynamically moving Sonic.

5) MK will rarely if ever gimp Sonic, if the Sonic is playing smartly. You neeed to know to adjust your recovery patterns for every character you face. MK is no differently. Use SideB from far away, and take advantage of your UpBs invincibility frames to avoid gimpage. Also note that Sonic's uair> Dair, and Sonic's Bair> Most everything MK has, if not all. Obviously Bair is slower, so it balances out.

6)Sonic can deal with tornado spam. It really isnt impossible hard to SDI out of it and then spring to safety. Bairs can beat it out with proper spacing(lol, ask espy how he does it, cuz IDK). Furthermore, Homing attack> Nado. Don't let people tell you otherwise. Just jump before you use it, and align yourself towards it. Not that hard. Tornado remians great as a punisher, however(nado>most asc approaches). Also, Sonic seems to have a realllyyy good shield for some reason. I often have my shield tiny and it is still able to outlast nado.

7) MKs shield on the other hand, is quite horrible. Sonic has some pretty darn good shield pressure, and then can use shieldpoking moves to punish.

8) Sonic can SDR combo MK quite easily. I think MKs ball shape lends to this, but its probably mostly because of MKs really poor airspeed.

9) Probably most importantly, Sonic is the only character quick enough to punish endlag on MKs moves, and startlag on a couple. Sonic can bait reactions from MK(try dash pivot cancels or dash dance pivots, or dash dance directonal fakeouts), and then punish that decently. No one else can really do this.

People often believe the best method to play against MK with Sonic is being very defensive. I disagree. Passive agressive play is what you need, while using safe fakeouts. MK cant chase you. You need to learn to powershield and be grab happy.

Despite all I mentioned, it does balance out however. Sonic may have an answer to everything MK can do, but MK is still quicker in attacks. Although Sonic makes shuttle loop wayyyyyy less effective, MK still has a uber reliable Dsmash. So yea, I think it balances out. At lower skill levels, MK has the advantage, but at a certain point of equal skill level and matchup knowledge, I actually find the matchup to be approaching even.

And I'm speaking from having more MK experience than probably the vast majority of Sonic mains here.

P.S. Every Sonic main needs to learn how to have control of Sonics dash options. This includes Dash Dance Pivots and Dash Dance Fakouts(see: Espy), Dash Pivot Cancels and regular dash turnarounds(see: Malcolm). Know to control your foxtrots. If you are stuck in a laggy foxtot, then Use SideB and maybe shield cancel it to counteract that. Know your b-reversals as well. These skills are extremely valuable in every matchup, but may be essential in facing a knowledgeable MK and doing well.

EDIT: Oh, and Spring> everything MK can do from below, lolz. His transcendent priority means that his Uairs Usmashes and Utilts will all be beaten out by spring, so its innefective for him to chase you from below.

 

[infomon]

That...... was a very good post. Thanks, Napz!!

 

[Kinzer]

So what was that you were going to say Infzy, did you happen to save it?

You could do what Nape did, and just paste it over here since it would still concern the opponent character.

Also Nape let me just say that you're not the only one who thinks Sonic could be a "MK counter" lol.

I know he won't ever have an advantaged matchup at this rate, but he's still one of the best characters to use against the terror.

 

[Napilopez]

Ahh yes, it seems my fellow Sonic mains are not so much inclined to believe MK hard coutners Sonic anymore :D.

And thanks infzy!

EDIT:

Just to be totally clear, I win almost exactly 40% of my serious, friendlies matches/sets against Deoxys, my MK maining friend. I know because I count, lol. We are about equally skilled overall, but he plays a less sloppy game than I do. I firmly believe that once I begin playing less sloppy, It will be getting closer to the 50% range. I'm getting there, I just make too many input misteaks. While often people have a problem of not "knowing" the best course of action to take against certain characters, my problem is more one of simple technical skill issues. Like, I should have DDP'd here, but I messed performed the input too quickly so I get punished.

And even if you cant dashdance pivot, try dashdance fakeouts(initiate dash one way than immediately input the opposite direction). It works surprisingly well. And umm, people often spotdodge to avoid grabs, so try to grab as a reaction rather than habit. If you expect your opponent to spotdodge, then just delay the grab. Quite simple.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

I really think that sonic can be a MK counter if you know were to hit him. Like his mach tornado if you hit it from the middle up you will ether A break through and hit MK or B just cancel both attacks leading to a possibly garb or dodging another attack. Also when Mk uses his teleporting down special he leaves a trail of dust that moves the opposite direction that he's moving in. and the place where he's about to appear is distorted. Another thing i found about MK is all his moves hit before you can see the slash marks. So dodging early will result in the move missing.

Mk also have more range than sonic but as much range as Kirby's forward attack move for all of his sword attacks that are on the ground. Footstooling has proven for me to be very useful on a MK because if they try to use their down special to recover you can ether bair or fair were they are going to appear.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I really think that sonic can be a MK counter if you know were to hit him. Like his mach tornado if you hit it from the middle up you will ether A break through and hit MK or B just cancel both attacks leading to a possibly garb or dodging another attack. Also when Mk uses his teleporting down special he leaves a trail of dust that moves the opposite direction that he's moving in. and the place where he's about to appear is distorted. Another thing i found about MK is all his moves hit before you can see the slash marks. So dodging early will result in the move missing.

Mk also have more range than sonic but as much range as Kirby's forward attack move for all of his sword attacks that are on the ground. Footstooling has proven for me to be very useful on a MK because if they try to use their down special to recover you can ether bair or fair were they are going to appear.

You have been playing CPU MK's. MK NEVER recovers with down-B. In fact, he never uses it AT ALL. Mach Tornado obviously isn't gonna be spammed and won't be used to approach Sonic. You're not gonna time the F-smash correctly all the time on a decent player. And HA is total bull****, because MK gets little landing lag, and you get more than him. Enjoy your D-smash.
Sonic is so NOT a MK counter.

Oh yea, the footstooling LOL. U-air.

 

[Tenki]

Well, some MKs know that you're going to be expecting/camping for up-B's. Then they will use tornado, side-B, or down-B to recover.

But again, it's more of a mixup option and not anywhere close to a regular habit.

 

[Jim Morrison]

If they were recovering with Tornado, the F-smash could work, clank, knocking them out, leaving them tumbling, and you going LOLOLOLOLSTEAK

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

I've never seen an MK use a down b except to do the infinite cape. But like Tenki said, they do occasionally use tornado and the drill to recover.

How does Short hopping over mk's dtilt and bairing him in the *** work for you guys? I seem to pull it off quite a bit as long as I do it right.

 

[thecatinthehat]

How does Short hopping over mk's dtilt and bairing him in the *** work for you guys? I seem to pull it off quite a bit as long as I do it right.

do I really have to say it?

Spoiler

spinshot > bair

>_>

 

[Kinzer]

It shouldn't work really.

Their DTilt is so fast they probably get into the habit of putting themselves in unecessary lag by spamming it, I bet if they knew you were going to waste all that time jump and the performing a Bair, they could probably hit you with something like a SL or the third hit of FTilt or SOMETHING.

They do have a thing called Mach FTilt to make it faster btw, so I'm not entirely insane. MK has too much range on his attacks for his own good.

 

[Tenki]

JW, what if MK was in position to float a tornado by the edge as you're recovering?

That is, he's standing by the edge.

If you spring early, he should be able to chase you, since his ground speed is pretty fast.

If you try to go under the edge, he can float out a quick tornado and chase you as you airdodge.

It's something I remembered from a wifi match a while ago. The guy said he couldn't exactly float his tornado by the edge and didn't use it at all due to the risk of suicide. But I'm wondering what kind of change that would have made.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

lol I though as much,though shouldn't doesn't mean it doesn't

Spoiler

or the mks that I play suck>_>

. But It might be good for a surprise or if they're spamming it?

 

[Tenki]

lol I though as much,though shouldn't doesn't mean it doesn't

Spoiler

this spoiler may be correct ;/

. But It might be good for a surprise or if they're spamming it?

I hope you all realized that even though the habit that OS was punishing with D-tilt (homing attack) was questionable, he still has a point in that MK has a pretty quick, high priority/ranged move that he isn't really committed to, so just like how we can charge and shield cancel a side-B to punish a reaction, MK can hit D-tilt a few times and then stop to punish your reaction.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Tenki if they dropped down under the edge and did tornado as you spring up,since the bottom of the tornado is vulnerable,I'd go for an upair as I ascended.

 

[Tenki]

Nah, more like walk off/tornado at ledge height and then move back on stage before it dies.

-------
The bottom of the tornado is vulnerable..?

I'm pretty sure it would either airclang or get outprioritized by the Tornado. To go for an u-air, are you meaning to space it with the 2nd hit? I've never seen U-air or any of Sonic's aerials beat MK's Tornado out from below.

Besides, if you were low enough to tip with the 2nd hit of U-air, you'd probably end up hitting MK and falling to your death for not going high enough above the ledge, lol.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

I've never been in that kind of situation so I'm just theorizing. But the bottom of the tornado is the narrowest part and therefore should be easier to hit MK out of it. I'm going to have to look at this when I can get to my wii. I want to see if Sonic can get the last hit of upair in and still be able to wall jump off the side of FD and get back to the ledge.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

The bottom of the whorenado is also the most focused point of the move. That relates to how Dair > Tornado [when using Dair from above and dead-on]

 

[Mickey69]

Sonic vs Pit is most defiantly not an even match up. Pit has a huge advantage due to Quick ducking, Projectiles (arrows), 2 drills, and Fast smashes. it is very difficult to punch pit because he ducks so quick and could counter you with a smash soon after. Also its hard to roll and hit him if he times his drill right and gets you caught in it. Yes sonic can avoid arrows if he spins but if the Pit has decent arrow game he will hit you with his second arrow. My advice if you want to stand a chance is using tilts the quickest moves sonic has that way pit wont react fast enough to duck. Try to avoid charging a spin or even spinning at all costs!!!

 

[Chis]

Mickey69, did you just join to post that? I'm not even going to try.

 

[Mickey69]

no I joined a while ago...I just never posted till now...smart one

 

[thecatinthehat]

no I joined a while ago...I just never posted till now...smart one

Smartass, it says your join date by your name.

****ing kids these days, Christ.

Pit gets wrecked by Sonic.

 

[Mickey69]

you dumb **** I'm 18 and I main sonic my friend mains pit and were on the same level my sonic cant beat his pit but my noob *** diddy can beat his pit so why don't both of you STFU because I joined in the beginnin of February you lil jit my sonic will **** your sonic up in dittos. I'm just trying to get this data correct cause I know sonic more than most of these ppl here!!

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

......

$10 on CiTH landing a boxobair for the win.

 

[Mickey69]

if you had balls youd play me urself hahaha yall are all talk

 

[infomon]

Sonic vs Pit is most defiantly not an even match up. Pit has a huge advantage due to Quick ducking, Projectiles (arrows), 2 drills, and Fast smashes. it is very difficult to punch pit because he ducks so quick and could counter you with a smash soon after. Also its hard to roll and hit him if he times his drill right and gets you caught in it. Yes sonic can avoid arrows if he spins but if the Pit has decent arrow game he will hit you with his second arrow. My advice if you want to stand a chance is using tilts the quickest moves sonic has that way pit wont react fast enough to duck. Try to avoid charging a spin or even spinning at all costs!!!

Mickey, welcome to the boards

Sorry that you were met with some harsh comments, but here's why a few of your statements are .... disconcerting:
1. Every one of Sonic's ground moves can hit a Pit even while he's ducking. You know that you can angle an Fsmash so it aims downwards, right?
2. I'm not sure what you mean by "drill", is that Pit's side-B? It's really easy to get out of, just hit the control-stick and/or c-stick away from it (this is called smash-DI), you'll be out after taking only a small amount of damage, and you should be able to punish its ending-lag. Pit has to be really careful to successfully wrack damage with his side-B. Then again, afaik it's used as a punisher; you shouldn't be getting hit by it often in the first place.
3. Spins are not the best way to avoid arrows. Just powershield, spotdodge, or airdodge. This way you aren't committing to an approach, and Sonic's spinspecials are all quite punishable as approaches. Though you seem to know this.
4. Sonic definitely has an easier time avoiding Pit's arrows than a lot of other characters, so I don't see why it's such a big deal in this matchup.

Hope that clears up a few things. The people here have reason to be skeptical because many of us are competing in large tournaments, and have a very in-depth knowledge of the game mechanics, whereas new posters tend to lack rigour and perspective. I hope you can appreciate this.

and a great big roflcopter-induced facepalm for this one. I really hope some ppl accept his challenge ^_^

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

if you had balls youd play me urself hahaha yall are all talk

Actually,that sounds like a great idea.

Time your available and FC?