Sonic Matchup Export: Marth

[Tesh]

Sonic VS Marth​

Pretty even matchup here. Marth is all about spacing, but that doesn't bother Sonic.

I'm thinking strike stages like lylat,halberd and battlefield and try to take him to places like FD/SV for the first match (but beware his grab release).

Any special places we should counterpick this guy? I would personally stick to same old iSDR spam, but frigate also seems usable. I'd say banning Brinstar (my opinion on every matchup in the game) would also be worthwhile.

 

[Nike.]

Sonic can go to hell.

Battlefield and Brinstar are counterpicks. Strike one and marth will (should) go to the other.

Stick to the usual Yoshi's/Pictochat counterpicks.

I LOVE this MU if it's not Espy playing sonic x)

 

[Shaya]

Come tell us how you deal with Sonic's superior speed and power.

Best be trolling.

 

[Tenki]

Best be trolling.

Don't worry about it, man.
---------------

I don't have Marth exp.
Discuss matchup plz.

 

[Tesh]

Marth can't land tippers on Sonic past like 0%. How is he gonna kill before 160 reliably?

 

[Shaya]

I'm pretty sure sonic sets himself up to get tipper baired or neutral aired every time he tries something in the air.

Killing him before 160% is pretty simple considering utilts, tipper nair/bair, and ledge traps.

 

[Tesh]

I've only seen 2 marth's reliably land tippers, and not vs Sonic. I'll concede that you guys kill about 30-40% earlier than we do though.

 

[Nike.]

Shaya. Sonic has more power than us. And we can't tipper. How could you not know that?

90-10 Sonics favor

 

[WedginatorX]

like every matchup, space with bair.
asc works rather well. Juggle the character. I prefer timing him out to risking tippers, but that's just me. Don't regularly spindash and then sdj out behind with an aerial, because marth gets a free tipper bair.

 

[Tesh]

He won't get a tipper bair unless u are predictable. Spindash is just a jump with momentum and a hitbox. You can do whatever u would normally do when he tries to bair. Its not even close to guaranteed.

 

[Shaya]

I get sonic's with tipper bair just about every time they jump.

 

[Nike.]

But tippers dont exist against sonic

 

[Exceladon City]

See Espy vs Nike.

+1





/thread





afk.

 

[Trillion]

I don't have a ton of match up experience vs. Marth, but from what I HAVE played, I don't think that this match up is quite as bad as we originally thought. I'd say it's still somewhat in Marth's favor though.

Marth Advantages:
Out-ranges Sonic on every(?) attack.
Kills Earlier
Tippers

Sonic Advantages:
Better Recovery Distance
Can maybe gimp Marth with a well placed Spring
Hard to tipper and can bait Marth to whiff tippers and punish

I think those are some of the most important (though probably obvious) points to the match up.

I think that Marth will likely die at an earlier percent than Sonic will with the exception of tipped smashes. Marth will be able to rack up more damage due to his priority in range. However, Sonic will be able to rack up decent damage on the times that he penetrates Marth's zone.

Overall, Marth's range and better killing ability will triumph the majority of the time. I'd say this is somewhere between 60/40 and 55/45 Marth's favor.

 

[Tesh]

Its not JUST about range with marth. The important thing about his range is that he has FAST ranged attacks which is what makes them better overall than having absurd range with slow or laggy moves. Most of his moves won't outrange Fsmash/Bair/Ftilt, but they come out faster and end faster (some of them).

 

[B.A.M.]

we screw with Marfs spacing using smart spin dashing and SDSC cancels. uair is a solid juggler as usual and a well placed bair at the edge owns. I feel that this matchup is okay provided we dont start getting in some dumb rhythm with spin dashes. Abusing our dash shield and SDSC does wonders. Throw game is awesome in this matchup and seems to me to be very critical. I feel aggro style of play really works in this matchup as well as campy style of play. Its just a question of being smart with your spindash selection. Thats what always made the difference vs mike. That and abusing that throw game to punish that Marth Zone.

Oh and if you know Marths range, it makes it just that much harder for him. I love sitting in that fsmash range of his only to dodge his with my own fsmash. Learn how to grab the ledge at the right time and ledge drop invincible aerial. Always harrass him off stage. All you usually needs is one good hit to end that stock. Try to lessen your spot dodge habits , because dancing blade eats that ish for breakfast at the very least. I like using up aimed ftilts to zone out SH attempts as well as fairs to rush them down. Always try to force Marth off, and take the guaranteed damage you should get due to simple reactionary edgeguarding. At the right moments, springs can gimp very nicely or at least make the marth attack as a means of protection, giving you time to edgehog is done properly.

 

[Sonjicboom]

Competitive noob here; I'm having major problems with Marth. Specifically, I am having trouble working past his ledge-guarding techniques when I try to recover from the top corners of the stage. I am trying spring spikes, neutral b, and simple air-dodging, none of which seem to work. Any insight here, folks? Thanks a bunch!

 

[JMan8891]

Stop getting read like a bed time story

 

[Trillion]

Competitive noob here; I'm having major problems with Marth. Specifically, I am having trouble working past his ledge-guarding techniques when I try to recover from the top corners of the stage. I am trying spring spikes, neutral b, and simple air-dodging, none of which seem to work. Any insight here, folks? Thanks a bunch!

Sorry that some people (read as JMan) are jerks.


If you are primarily having problems recovering from near the top corner of the stage, then first, save your spring until you are getting near the stage. Being able to change your vertical position makes it harder for people to ledge guard you.

Sometimes, it is best to be patient on your recovery. Don't panic. Remember, as Sonic you have a great recovery. It is ok to fall down past the ledge and then try to grab the ledge on your recovery. You do not have to get back on stage as fast as possible. Keep in mind that you can also wall hop after your spring or footstool or even both!

I also find that occasionally, it can be helpful to mix your dair into your recovery. If you dair from high enough up, you can grab the ledge at the end of the dair. Or you can dair so that you pass the ledge and then jump back up.

Overall, keep your recovery mixed up and use all the different options that you have.

 

[Sonjicboom]

I really appreciate the advice. I guess calming down and keeping the options open is really the best way to go about the situation; easier said than done .

Jman, I do hope I can heed your word and stop being predictable. Thank you for reiterating my agenda.

 

[WedginatorX]

Don't recover with spindash against marth; he ***** it. If you need to gain horizontal distance, try spinshotting towards the stage, but try to land away from him. One hit from marth is going to send you back offstage in a terrible situation.
Land away from him and avoid tippers and you can probably live to like 150% against him.

 

[Tesh]

Spinshot is pretty risky as you have to use your double jump right away for it. Spindash is usually your best way to recover as long as you don't try to go straight through the guy holding the sword. Mix it up by changing your angle, double jumping late, and trying to hit him with spring or dair (or both ). If Marth tippers his Uair on the spring, I'm pretty sure he is stuck in hitlag too long to punish a dair past him.

 

[Trillion]

I really appreciate the advice. I guess calming down and keeping the options open is really the best way to go about the situation; easier said than done .

Jman, I do hope I can heed your word and stop being predictable. Thank you for reiterating my agenda.

Also, one more last little tip that can help quite a bit: It sounds really silly to say this, but watch your opponent instead of yourself. It might sound like a moment where you hit your head and say durrrr that's how you play this game, but try to take notice during your matches. Do you find yourself watching YOUR OWN character more than watching your opponent's character? It's a very easy habit to fall into without even noticing that you are doing it.

Luckily, if you ARE, it's an easy problem to fix, the hardest part is just to notice when you become focused on yourself. If you are watching your opponent than it is easier to read what they are about to do and your reactions will be faster and the faster that you can read them, the split seconds of extra processing time that your brain has, the better choices you will make (and the safer choices you will make on recovery). This is a tip that definitely helps in recovery, but even in the game as a whole.

 

[XLR8TION]

hmm i cant say any on this mu cuz even tho i used to main marth, i cant explain how to beat him. sad amirite? or amirite?

plus i spring dair ALOT and it goes unpunished ALOT(vs the marths i played).

/wifi

 

[Tyler_ACE]

From a Marth main perspective, I would say this mu is pretty much even. I use counter a ton in this mu, and when they catch on to it, and try to bait me into using counter to punish the lag, I just use dancing blade. So to the sonic mains, just watch out for the counter, slow the pace down, keep them in the air, and stay unpredictable. And be careful about trying to bait them into a counter, cuz they might be playing the "mind-game" card a ton in this mu.

 

[Kuraudo]

Shoulda banned Brinstar... Shoulda banned Brinstar... Nike's going down next money match.

 

[Life]

From a Marth main perspective, I would say this mu is pretty much even. I use counter a ton in this mu, and when they catch on to it, and try to bait me into using counter to punish the lag, I just use dancing blade. So to the sonic mains, just watch out for the counter, slow the pace down, keep them in the air, and stay unpredictable. And be careful about trying to bait them into a counter, cuz they might be playing the "mind-game" card a ton in this mu.

It's funny because my Marth totally plays like that. In MK's Shuttle Loop range? Counter until they stop SLing you. Not confident enough to edgeguard with fair/dair? Counter them when they try to up-B you on the ledge. Recovering above the ledge? Counter the edgeguard attempt. Opponent doing ANYTHING predictably? Counter it. Marth's most underrated move IMO. And then when they finally catch on? Stop using Counter for 2-3 minutes. When they start falling back into those "winning habits" (basically, anything that's normally a good idea but tends to get spammed a lot) use Counter once or twice and they have to get creative again. Downside is that it trains your opponents into playing better, but that's hardly a downside.

But this topic is about Sonic more than Marth. And there I have XLR8's problem--can't really explain the matchup, I guess.

Instinctively I say slight advantage Marth due to attack range. But don't take my word for it, I'm terrible.

 

[B.A.M.]

LOL this match up isnt even. And switching between counter and and dancing blade should deter anyone, thats a terrible tactic solved by shield. You need more of a mixup than that. Marth can be scary at times though. They definitely have the advantage in neutral position. Although when we have slight positional advantage, charging spin charge at mid range seems to be effective ( hurray for 1 frame release). Spin dashing does work in this matchup but it has utilized very intelligently as marth can punish brainless spin dashes very easily. Dash shield seems to be amazing along with SDSC too for messing up spacing ( as I already stated). Of course we need bair, our major spacing tool as well. uairs are great; I particularly love ff sh uair as it awesome for crossups beginning juggles, pretty safe on block, etc. Gimping for me is a big deal in this match up as well. Marth is definitely a character we can harrass offstage for kills provided we space well at pay attention. At the very least, annoy him with a spring now and then if ur not good at edgeguarding lol.



Would love to hear from Espy about the match up though, I have played Haze in a minute so.........

 

[Tenki]

umby killed me with marth XD